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TC957
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:47 pm

VS have done winter seasonal routes before, like CPT. Don't see that as being a problem.
 
Allanc1987
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:01 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:02 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would expect arriving around 23:30 and departing around 02:30 (+1). Once the USA finally opens up, this provides a connecting path to airports like JFK. MAN would be a nice alternative to LHR for connecting traffic if additional slots are made available when traffic gets back up (MAN is currently restricted to 60 movements per hour). Could a short-haul network, based on either the AT76 or the DH8D, work here for connections?


This looks very possible for Cityjet and Virgin using E190s

https://careers.cityjet.com/pilot-caree ... alist-ejet

CityJet are seeking a highly motivated individual to work within the Flight Operations Department. Reporting to the Chief Pilot, the successful candidate will be responsible for assisting with the entry into service of the E-190 into a busy Regional ACMI airline.

Also there is a rumour that Eastern Airways will have a Code Share with an Air line on flights to LHR and MAN
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:22 am

behramjee wrote:
TC957 wrote:
ChrisEtihad272 wrote:
I Still find it quite weird nobody has taken up the routes left by Thomas cook, Cancun, Cuba and destination within the US

I can see LHR - MLE coming next before expansion westwards, plenty of high-end tourism to the Maldives.


problem is MLE is winter seasonal traffic and not a year round route...BA/VS would be better off adding back 3 weekly DAR or EBB iso MLE


In recent years VS has operated LAX, SFO and BOS from MAN as seasonal services in the northern winter. Assuming all things are equal, and VS gets through this crisis, I could see them wishing to explore eastbound routes with winter seasonal potential - such as South Africa and the Maldives - as well as routes that are more likely to be year round (such as Delhi, Mumbai, Islamabad, Lahore, Bangkok) to improve revenue and utilisation moving forwards.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:16 am

Allanc1987 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would expect arriving around 23:30 and departing around 02:30 (+1). Once the USA finally opens up, this provides a connecting path to airports like JFK. MAN would be a nice alternative to LHR for connecting traffic if additional slots are made available when traffic gets back up (MAN is currently restricted to 60 movements per hour). Could a short-haul network, based on either the AT76 or the DH8D, work here for connections?


This looks very possible for Cityjet and Virgin using E190s

https://careers.cityjet.com/pilot-caree ... alist-ejet

CityJet are seeking a highly motivated individual to work within the Flight Operations Department. Reporting to the Chief Pilot, the successful candidate will be responsible for assisting with the entry into service of the E-190 into a busy Regional ACMI airline.

Also there is a rumour that Eastern Airways will have a Code Share with an Air line on flights to LHR and MAN


Does Falko own any E190s that could be placed with CityJet? (Falko owns CityJet.) To me, MAN for connections and LHR for O&D.
 
anstar
Posts: 3384
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:33 am

Interesting time to be launching routes when the UK is about to go into a lockdowns.
 
Allanc1987
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:01 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:14 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Allanc1987 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would expect arriving around 23:30 and departing around 02:30 (+1). Once the USA finally opens up, this provides a connecting path to airports like JFK. MAN would be a nice alternative to LHR for connecting traffic if additional slots are made available when traffic gets back up (MAN is currently restricted to 60 movements per hour). Could a short-haul network, based on either the AT76 or the DH8D, work here for connections?


This looks very possible for Cityjet and Virgin using E190s

https://careers.cityjet.com/pilot-caree ... alist-ejet

CityJet are seeking a highly motivated individual to work within the Flight Operations Department. Reporting to the Chief Pilot, the successful candidate will be responsible for assisting with the entry into service of the E-190 into a busy Regional ACMI airline.

Also there is a rumour that Eastern Airways will have a Code Share with an Air line on flights to LHR and MAN


Does Falko own any E190s that could be placed with CityJet? (Falko owns CityJet.) To me, MAN for connections and LHR for O&D.


Just checked and there is 4 ex VA parked in
 
Allanc1987
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:01 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:20 am

Allanc1987 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Allanc1987 wrote:

This looks very possible for Cityjet and Virgin using E190s

https://careers.cityjet.com/pilot-caree ... alist-ejet

CityJet are seeking a highly motivated individual to work within the Flight Operations Department. Reporting to the Chief Pilot, the successful candidate will be responsible for assisting with the entry into service of the E-190 into a busy Regional ACMI airline.

Also there is a rumour that Eastern Airways will have a Code Share with an Air line on flights to LHR and MAN


Does Falko own any E190s that could be placed with CityJet? (Falko owns CityJet.) To me, MAN for connections and LHR for O&D.


Just checked and there is 4 ex VA parked in BNA plus the 2 in DUB that is Owned by NAC

https://m.planespotters.net/airline/Virgin-Australia
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:44 pm

Good for VS. If they didn’t launch an Indian carrier would have. I suspect the flight will be timed like Jet airways did. I believe that flight connect both ways to VS’s JFK flight. Jet did sell JFK-MAN-BOM VS/Jet flights. Also VS into BOM from LHR is a night departure ex LHR. If the MAN flight is a day departure then JFK pax would get options on flight arrivals/departures into BOM. One thing to add, with the JV with AF/KLM, VS’s 3X BOM and 2X Del get the added boost of being able to mix say BOM-AMS-MAN on KL. So even thought not daily, people can get a nonstop one way and one stop the other
Last edited by CaliguyNYC on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1523
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:46 pm

anstar wrote:
Interesting time to be launching routes when the UK is about to go into a lockdowns.


The route launches are at least 2 months away, plus cargo isn't subject to lockdown.

I would also argue now is a good time to be trying these routes given the current arrangements between the UK and India meaning it's a "closed shop" for only British and Indian airlines, therefore giving VS time to get a foothold in the market. Plus as mentioned before, MAN-DEL was on the cards anyway before COVID came along.

ChrisEtihad272 wrote:
I Still find it quite weird nobody has taken up the routes left by Thomas cook, Cancun, Cuba and destination within the US


In the case of the US, given what happened a few months later it's probably just as well those plans (if there were any) were put on ice or made. As for various Caribbean destinations, TUI are/were picking up some routes and increasing capacity. VS are also planning to operate up to 5 flights per week MAN-BGI this winter which would be an all-time high from their usual 3 flights per week schedule in previous winters. This was another Thomas Cook route that also carried cruise passengers in addition to Barbados-bound passengers, though I know going on a cruise is probably out of the equation for the foreseeable.
 
p468
Topic Author
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:31 pm

VS have really turned the table, what a stark contrast on the news we were all reading earlier in the year. Their cargo network seems to be growing as well, who would've thought a few months ago that VS would be flying PAX widebodies on shorthaul routes, LHR-MXP-LHR and the other bizzare one is DUB-LHR, though I suspect there's more to this as the ac actually comes in from LAX as a LHR-LAX-DUB-LHR. One would assume they have a contract from an LAX based customer to warrant LAX-DUB and as the ac would be positioning, they're also selling the DUB-LHR leg. VS have also had a love-hate relationship with ORD and now it seems to be doing well with their cargo operations. Just wished their cargo flights were on sale for us PAX also!
 
onwFan
Posts: 669
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:56 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
One thing to add, with the JV with AF/KLM, VS’s 3X BOM and 2X Del get the added boost of being able to mix say BOM-AMS-MAN on KL. So even thought not daily, people can get a nonstop one way and one stop the other

To my knowledge, VS and AF/KL don’t cooperate on flights between India and the EU. Plus, the AMS/CDG-UK segments on AF/KL are only sold by VS as part of North America-EU/UK itineraries, which comes under the scope of the JV. Delta codeshares on VS routes to India, but again only as part of North America to India itineraries.
 
anstar
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:50 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
anstar wrote:
Interesting time to be launching routes when the UK is about to go into a lockdowns.


The route launches are at least 2 months away, plus cargo isn't subject to lockdown.


I didn't realise they were launching them as cargo only.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3327
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:24 am

anstar wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
anstar wrote:
Interesting time to be launching routes when the UK is about to go into a lockdowns.


The route launches are at least 2 months away, plus cargo isn't subject to lockdown.


I didn't realise they were launching them as cargo only.


They aren’t.
 
xwb777
Posts: 1164
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:34 am

The schedule has been announced:

Manchester – Delhi eff 05JAN21 2 weekly 787-9 (Original plan: 3 weekly A330-200 from 26OCT20)
VS324 MAN1050 – 0030+1DEL 789 25
VS325 DEL0220 – 0610MAN 789 36

Manchester – Mumbai eff 19DEC20 3 weekly 787-9
VS326 MAN0935 – 0005+1BOM 789 136
VS327 BOM0245 – 0715MAN 789 247

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... h-in-nw20/
 
jfk777
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm

Virgin has all these new routes to India and Pakistan, but why now ? Is it they seem to be the only markets they can launch new flights now ? Why is it a good idea to fly to Pakistan now vs. before Covid.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8686
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:20 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Virgin has all these new routes to India and Pakistan, but why now ? Is it they seem to be the only markets they can launch new flights now ? Why is it a good idea to fly to Pakistan now vs. before Covid.


MAN-DEL was announced before, it’a just a new (delayed) start date.

But more broadly, TATL is basically dead for the foreseeable future, so VS have a lot of planes sitting idle. The VFR nature of the Indian and Pakistan markets mean they are reliable cashflow in the current market, as VFR is the passenger segment with the smallest decline in passenger numbers. Also ME3 are nowhere near as competitive now, and aren’t allowed to fly passengers between UK and India at all.

These routes might have made sense pre-COVID, but there was opportunity costs to consider, and much more competition than now.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4976
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:34 pm

It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9872
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:35 pm

p468 wrote:
VS have really turned the table, what a stark contrast on the news we were all reading earlier in the year.


Announcing routes, and operating routes, doesn't mean they're actually making a profit on a fully-allocated basis. We don't know if they have turned the tables or not. We see fans wanting to return VS to the broad BA competitor of old... you know, when they lost money year after year after year.

jfk777 wrote:
Virgin has all these new routes to India and Pakistan, but why now ? Is it they seem to be the only markets they can launch new flights now ? Why is it a good idea to fly to Pakistan now vs. before Covid.


In the short term, the goal is to operate flights on a contribution margin basis, meaning they have some contribution to fixed overhead and smaller losses (and cash burn) than if they left aircraft parked. As noted, with travel to the U.S. in the dumpster these South Asia routes may be the best they can do. At some point (and that's not necessarily the 'end' of COVID) they will need actually to cover cost of capital and book profit. Whether these routes have survived five years from now I will not predict. It's not a super-long list of things that make sense to try with premium config widebodies from MAN and LHR -- one can't expect them to run A330s on LHR-Lyon, for example.
 
SueD
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:42 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
skipness1E wrote:
It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.


Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:48 pm

xwb777 wrote:
The schedule has been announced:

Manchester – Delhi eff 05JAN21 2 weekly 787-9 (Original plan: 3 weekly A330-200 from 26OCT20)
VS324 MAN1050 – 0030+1DEL 789 25
VS325 DEL0220 – 0610MAN 789 36

Manchester – Mumbai eff 19DEC20 3 weekly 787-9
VS326 MAN0935 – 0005+1BOM 789 136
VS327 BOM0245 – 0715MAN 789 247

Source: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... h-in-nw20/


Sticking to the trend of ungodly arrival and departure times on the India side I see
 
David_itl
Posts: 6455
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:48 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Sticking to the trend of ungodly arrival and departure times on the India side I see


There's likely a 3 pronged attack by VS; in going after MAN-USA, MAN-India and India-USA, Doing the 1st two only would probably result in altered timings. Throw in they maybe after connecting traffic then it makes sense. Guessing at what any potential timings VS may have for the resumption of MAN-USA..

USA to India:

0605 VS110 ATL arrive Mon Weds Fri Sat
0700 VS128 JFK arrive Mon Tues Thurs Fri Sun

0935 VS326 BOM depart Mon Weds Sat
1050 VS324 DEL depart Tues Fri

India to USA:
0600 VS325 DEL arrive Weds Sat
0715 VS327 BOM arrive Tues Thurs Sun

1050 VS109 ATL depart Tues Thurs Fri Sun
1120 VS127 JFK depart Mon Wes, Thurs, Sat, Sun

The unknown factor is if they will resume LAX or decide to bring back BOS instead of handing it to DL

0740 VS122 BOS arrive Thurs Sun
1050 VS182 LAX arrive Tue Thurs Sun

1100 VS181 LAX depart Mon Weds Sat
1520 VS121 BOS depart weds Sat

I can imagine that if they brought back BOS, they may look to alter the MAN departure time so we could look at 3 US routes helping the Indian routes. LAX probably will not feature as a connection; you could get away with Indai-MAN-LAX but the other way is not happening.
 
portola2727
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:59 pm

David_itl wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Sticking to the trend of ungodly arrival and departure times on the India side I see


There's likely a 3 pronged attack by VS; in going after MAN-USA, MAN-India and India-USA, Doing the 1st two only would probably result in altered timings. Throw in they maybe after connecting traffic then it makes sense. Guessing at what any potential timings VS may have for the resumption of MAN-USA..

USA to India:

0605 VS110 ATL arrive Mon Weds Fri Sat
0700 VS128 JFK arrive Mon Tues Thurs Fri Sun

0935 VS326 BOM depart Mon Weds Sat
1050 VS324 DEL depart Tues Fri

India to USA:
0600 VS325 DEL arrive Weds Sat
0715 VS327 BOM arrive Tues Thurs Sun

1050 VS109 ATL depart Tues Thurs Fri Sun
1120 VS127 JFK depart Mon Wes, Thurs, Sat, Sun

The unknown factor is if they will resume LAX or decide to bring back BOS instead of handing it to DL

0740 VS122 BOS arrive Thurs Sun
1050 VS182 LAX arrive Tue Thurs Sun

1100 VS181 LAX depart Mon Weds Sat
1520 VS121 BOS depart weds Sat

I can imagine that if they brought back BOS, they may look to alter the MAN departure time so we could look at 3 US routes helping the Indian routes. LAX probably will not feature as a connection; you could get away with Indai-MAN-LAX but the other way is not happening.

That's honestly a lot of connections from India to LAX via Europe. I have family in South India and going to India via FRA/CDG will have long connection times while the return trip has shorter and more seamless connections. The only way to go to my part of India via Europe with great connections on both sides would be through LHR via British Airways and that too on either BA 280/281 or BA 282/283.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:01 pm

To the why now question - other than the VFR answer - I would add a couple of things (1) India is not allowing a lot of connecting traffic and the ME3 have so far not been selling connecting flights to US/EU. This is a game changer for EU/US carriers. The ME3 had so much bulk that they reduced yield and actually took away a decent part of India based business traffic as the ME3 were almost home airlines (2) PIA can’t fly to the EU/UK so big hole for Pak flights and (3) India has always had a good mix of business, high end VFR, VFR, and tourists - it lacked high end business travelers. In a ever changing COVID environment, VS has a good chance of filling seats to India because which ever segment is traveling, India has or gets a portion of them. India flights are rarely a one trick pony depending on say high end business or UK origin higher paying tourists. UK-India enjoys two way business, VFR and tourist travel.
 
jomur
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:18 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
behramjee wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I can see LHR - MLE coming next before expansion westwards, plenty of high-end tourism to the Maldives.


problem is MLE is winter seasonal traffic and not a year round route...BA/VS would be better off adding back 3 weekly DAR or EBB iso MLE


In recent years VS has operated LAX, SFO and BOS from MAN as seasonal services in the northern winter. Assuming all things are equal, and VS gets through this crisis, I could see them wishing to explore eastbound routes with winter seasonal potential - such as South Africa and the Maldives - as well as routes that are more likely to be year round (such as Delhi, Mumbai, Islamabad, Lahore, Bangkok) to improve revenue and utilisation moving forwards.


Well they have to do something to replace all those previous loyal customers who will now never fly with Virgin again after their appalling handling of refunds.
 
by738
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm

A Bangkok VS route would most certainly not ‘improve revenue’. Its notoriously and historically a well known marginal route at best...
Lets bank this thread and come back in a year..
 
Skyblue39
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:46 pm

David_itl wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Sticking to the trend of ungodly arrival and departure times on the India side I see


There's likely a 3 pronged attack by VS; in going after MAN-USA, MAN-India and India-USA, Doing the 1st two only would probably result in altered timings. Throw in they maybe after connecting traffic then it makes sense. Guessing at what any potential timings VS may have for the resumption of MAN-USA..

USA to India:

0605 VS110 ATL arrive Mon Weds Fri Sat
0700 VS128 JFK arrive Mon Tues Thurs Fri Sun

0935 VS326 BOM depart Mon Weds Sat
1050 VS324 DEL depart Tues Fri

India to USA:
0600 VS325 DEL arrive Weds Sat
0715 VS327 BOM arrive Tues Thurs Sun

1050 VS109 ATL depart Tues Thurs Fri Sun
1120 VS127 JFK depart Mon Wes, Thurs, Sat, Sun

The unknown factor is if they will resume LAX or decide to bring back BOS instead of handing it to DL

0740 VS122 BOS arrive Thurs Sun
1050 VS182 LAX arrive Tue Thurs Sun

1100 VS181 LAX depart Mon Weds Sat
1520 VS121 BOS depart weds Sat

I can imagine that if they brought back BOS, they may look to alter the MAN departure time so we could look at 3 US routes helping the Indian routes. LAX probably will not feature as a connection; you could get away with Indai-MAN-LAX but the other way is not happening.


As it stands, DL are not serving Boston in 2021. So Boston hasn’t been handed to anybody.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:28 pm

by738 wrote:
A Bangkok VS route would most certainly not ‘improve revenue’. Its notoriously and historically a well known marginal route at best...
Lets bank this thread and come back in a year..


You do appreciate the distinction between revenue and profit?
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:00 pm

jomur wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
behramjee wrote:

problem is MLE is winter seasonal traffic and not a year round route...BA/VS would be better off adding back 3 weekly DAR or EBB iso MLE


In recent years VS has operated LAX, SFO and BOS from MAN as seasonal services in the northern winter. Assuming all things are equal, and VS gets through this crisis, I could see them wishing to explore eastbound routes with winter seasonal potential - such as South Africa and the Maldives - as well as routes that are more likely to be year round (such as Delhi, Mumbai, Islamabad, Lahore, Bangkok) to improve revenue and utilisation moving forwards.


Well they have to do something to replace all those previous loyal customers who will now never fly with Virgin again after their appalling handling of refunds.


True - they have serious issues to address to survive and eventually thrive. Fortunately for VS almost every other airline is facing similar existential issues and the competition does not carry the gravitas it once had...
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1523
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:52 am

anstar wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
anstar wrote:
Interesting time to be launching routes when the UK is about to go into a lockdowns.


The route launches are at least 2 months away, plus cargo isn't subject to lockdown.


I didn't realise they were launching them as cargo only.


They’re not, but you missed my point. What I’m saying is that if passenger numbers from the UK side in particular are limited in the event of a second lockdown, there are other options for money to be made on the route. How much cargo is carried underneath is an example of another revenue stream as that’s not subject to lockdown unlike humans.

Also, a second lockdown is not confirmed at this stage. If there was, I suspect it will be for a time-limited period over the next 4-6 weeks so it’s out of the way before Christmas. But with this government, who knows?

David_itl wrote:
The unknown factor is if they will resume LAX or decide to bring back BOS instead of handing it to DL.


Pretty sure MAN-LAX is returning in 2021 as I recall it being on the list of destinations being offered from MAN when 2021 bookings were launched back in the spring. All that of course is subject to the US borders reopening in time. MAN-BOS I can’t see happening next year, be it with VS or DL - or for some time for that matter.

Another route that’s been lost is MAN-LAS, though I suspect there would have been very limited scope for connections anyway given the seasonal nature and given its presence was largely aimed at British tourists heading to Vegas. Off-topic, but it’s also now an unserved city pairing as Thomas Cook also used to operate that route.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4976
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:40 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
SueD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
skipness1E wrote:
It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.


Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !

Hate? That's so 2020, where feelings trump all. I have no skin in the game with IAG or VS, but the trading situation is dire. I guess what's frustrating me slightly is the notion we're playing fantasy Virgin hub building at MAN when, unless the US borders open for spring next year and we have a COVID vaccine
1) Both Virgin and IAG will run out of money
2) See above

That's it. You can fly cargo as much as you like but you're going to keep bleeding out until point 1 is delivered. The UK is shuffling towards a full series of second, third and fourth painful lockdowns over the winter, all of which will kick forward bookings hard in the soft and painful. It's not hate, I love VS and have never had a bad flight with them, it's just cold reality. Like the same game we played that flybe or Thomas Cook could go on.
My suspicion for what it's worth is that as this drags on, IAG may be forced to split to allow a full on bail out by each govt. If we get that far, Virgin will be long since gone, and oddly enough, Norwegian will get bailed out by their own govt. #painfulirony
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:34 pm

skipness1E wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
SueD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
skipness1E wrote:
It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.


Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !

Hate? That's so 2020, where feelings trump all. I have no skin in the game with IAG or VS, but the trading situation is dire. I guess what's frustrating me slightly is the notion we're playing fantasy Virgin hub building at MAN when, unless the US borders open for spring next year and we have a COVID vaccine
1) Both Virgin and IAG will run out of money
2) See above

That's it. You can fly cargo as much as you like but you're going to keep bleeding out until point 1 is delivered. The UK is shuffling towards a full series of second, third and fourth painful lockdowns over the winter, all of which will kick forward bookings hard in the soft and painful. It's not hate, I love VS and have never had a bad flight with them, it's just cold reality. Like the same game we played that flybe or Thomas Cook could go on.
My suspicion for what it's worth is that as this drags on, IAG may be forced to split to allow a full on bail out by each govt. If we get that far, Virgin will be long since gone, and oddly enough, Norwegian will get bailed out by their own govt. #painfulirony


100%

It’s the unknown of when all this will be behind us - it is entirely reasonable to think it will be in 6 months, and equally reasonable to think it will be in 6 years. As things stand with the current status quo, I don’t think any major European airline is viable. That said, it looks like VS has a plan for surviving (or at least giving it the best chance of surviving) and this discussion is addressed at part of that strategy.

Unfortunately BA’s brazen refusal to consider any form of state assistance is looking increasingly foolish, it has painted the U.K. government into a corner and you can bet that if BA get any form of state aid the shareholders (or an insolvency practitioner if it has gone pop) of VS will come after the government for something similar.

Unless there is a long term exit from this pretty quickly it could get messy.

Anyway, this is way OT.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:42 am

skipness1E wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
SueD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
skipness1E wrote:
It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.


Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !

Hate? That's so 2020, where feelings trump all. I have no skin in the game with IAG or VS, but the trading situation is dire. I guess what's frustrating me slightly is the notion we're playing fantasy Virgin hub building at MAN when, unless the US borders open for spring next year and we have a COVID vaccine
1) Both Virgin and IAG will run out of money
2) See above

That's it. You can fly cargo as much as you like but you're going to keep bleeding out until point 1 is delivered. The UK is shuffling towards a full series of second, third and fourth painful lockdowns over the winter, all of which will kick forward bookings hard in the soft and painful. It's not hate, I love VS and have never had a bad flight with them, it's just cold reality. Like the same game we played that flybe or Thomas Cook could go on.
My suspicion for what it's worth is that as this drags on, IAG may be forced to split to allow a full on bail out by each govt. If we get that far, Virgin will be long since gone, and oddly enough, Norwegian will get bailed out by their own govt. #painfulirony


I fully agree with most of it but why would IAG have to split? Each airline is run independently and can be supported by it's respective government without fear of the money being diverted. The LH group and AF/KL seem to manage?
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4976
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:59 am

Westerwaelder wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
SueD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !

Hate? That's so 2020, where feelings trump all. I have no skin in the game with IAG or VS, but the trading situation is dire. I guess what's frustrating me slightly is the notion we're playing fantasy Virgin hub building at MAN when, unless the US borders open for spring next year and we have a COVID vaccine
1) Both Virgin and IAG will run out of money
2) See above

That's it. You can fly cargo as much as you like but you're going to keep bleeding out until point 1 is delivered. The UK is shuffling towards a full series of second, third and fourth painful lockdowns over the winter, all of which will kick forward bookings hard in the soft and painful. It's not hate, I love VS and have never had a bad flight with them, it's just cold reality. Like the same game we played that flybe or Thomas Cook could go on.
My suspicion for what it's worth is that as this drags on, IAG may be forced to split to allow a full on bail out by each govt. If we get that far, Virgin will be long since gone, and oddly enough, Norwegian will get bailed out by their own govt. #painfulirony


I fully agree with most of it but why would IAG have to split? Each airline is run independently and can be supported by it's respective government without fear of the money being diverted. The LH group and AF/KL seem to manage?

France and Netherland are both in the EU. The UK left earlier this year. Rules on state aid are about to diverge politically.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3257
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:24 am

jfk777 wrote:
Virgin has all these new routes to India and Pakistan, but why now ? Is it they seem to be the only markets they can launch new flights now ? Why is it a good idea to fly to Pakistan now vs. before Covid.


Opportunity cost. More money to be made on other routes, now the dynamics of the market has changed VS has to adapt.
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:46 am

skipness1E wrote:
Westerwaelder wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
Hate? That's so 2020, where feelings trump all. I have no skin in the game with IAG or VS, but the trading situation is dire. I guess what's frustrating me slightly is the notion we're playing fantasy Virgin hub building at MAN when, unless the US borders open for spring next year and we have a COVID vaccine
1) Both Virgin and IAG will run out of money
2) See above

That's it. You can fly cargo as much as you like but you're going to keep bleeding out until point 1 is delivered. The UK is shuffling towards a full series of second, third and fourth painful lockdowns over the winter, all of which will kick forward bookings hard in the soft and painful. It's not hate, I love VS and have never had a bad flight with them, it's just cold reality. Like the same game we played that flybe or Thomas Cook could go on.
My suspicion for what it's worth is that as this drags on, IAG may be forced to split to allow a full on bail out by each govt. If we get that far, Virgin will be long since gone, and oddly enough, Norwegian will get bailed out by their own govt. #painfulirony


I fully agree with most of it but why would IAG have to split? Each airline is run independently and can be supported by it's respective government without fear of the money being diverted. The LH group and AF/KL seem to manage?

France and Netherland are both in the EU. The UK left earlier this year. Rules on state aid are about to diverge politically.


And the UK can keep within EU rules where IAG is concerned. The EU is making big exceptions due to Covid-19 anyway. If aid to LH, OS, AF, KL and others is anything to go by, then the UK could pump billions into BA without breaking any EU rules. I can't see the UK government do anything that would lead to the EU asking for a breakup of IAG?
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Adds MAN-BOM/DEL

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:52 am

SueD wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
skipness1E wrote:
It all depends on COVID. The Northern winter hasn't begun yet and we're pretty much headed for an extended lockdown anyway. If Virgin are still trading by the summer I will be pleasantly surprised. Hauling cargo in the holds of B789s is only a stop gap.


Skip why the hate on Virgin really ?

The Uk needs an alternative to that other Spanish Qatari outfit !


And the BVI/US outfit is the solution? I don't think VS has delivered much in the last years that has resulted in BA having to up their game. Proper competition certainly keeps everyone on their toes but it does not need to be another UK based carrier. Foreign airlines manage that quite well.
 
jimmy9irons
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:28 pm

Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:49 pm

There is a Virgin Atlantic flight landing now at Heathrow from Milan. Have Virgin started new short haul routes?
 
David_itl
Posts: 6455
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:02 pm

It's a cargo flight
 
IrishLessor
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:03 pm

This flight has been running for over a month. I'd guess it is cargo. Not scheduled passenger.
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2356
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:06 pm

I think that you are talking about flight VS510, it's only been operating sporadically since the start of September and I'm guessing it is operating repatriation flights as a lot of Brits were stuck in Italy when the lockdowns began a few months ago.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:07 pm

Cargo. VS hasn't operated short-haul scheduled services since it abandoned the short-lived UK Domestic services it launched in 2012 on A320s to MAN, EDI, and one other destination. Prior to that, the only short-haul route VS operated was LGW-ATH, in the 1990s.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5990
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:

Cargo. VS hasn't operated short-haul scheduled services since it abandoned the short-lived UK Domestic services it launched in 2012 on A320s to MAN, EDI, and one other destination. Prior to that, the only short-haul route VS operated was LGW-ATH, in the 1990s.


Was LGW-MST operated by VS or a contract carrier under their brand?
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer Night's Dream
 
FlyingColours
Posts: 2356
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:13 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:23 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Cargo. VS hasn't operated short-haul scheduled services since it abandoned the short-lived UK Domestic services it launched in 2012 on A320s to MAN, EDI, and one other destination. Prior to that, the only short-haul route VS operated was LGW-ATH, in the 1990s.


The third destination was Aberdeen, it was all due to remedy slots following BA taking over BMI.

There is an episode of "Gounded" on YouTube which looks at the history of Virgin Atlantic Little Red which may be of interest, it also touches on the short lived ATH flights and the Club Air 727s and Viscounts which operated shorthaul services in the 90s. I'm not sure on the rules regarding linking to YT, especially as it is my video so won't (don't fancy getting in trouble).

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
fromheretohere9
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 8:19 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:44 pm

Virgin has been operating cargo flights to Milan, Brussels and Dublin for a few months. A quick look on their website would show they are not operating them as passenger routes.
 
ZuluTime
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:22 pm

the only short-haul route VS operated was LGW-ATH


Early days saw a BAF Viscount in full Virgin Atlantic colours operating LGW-MST and a short-lived venture with Club Air of Dublin which flew LTN-DUB with a 727-100 under the Virgin Atlantic brand also. The Athens service was flown by South East European Airways as a franchise before Virgin took it on themselves when SEEA collapsed.
 
metroline2006
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:19 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:27 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Cargo. VS hasn't operated short-haul scheduled services since it abandoned the short-lived UK Domestic services it launched in 2012 on A320s to MAN, EDI, and one other destination. Prior to that, the only short-haul route VS operated was LGW-ATH, in the 1990s.


G-VATH A321 and before G-OUZO A320 both LHR and LGW to ATH they also used the Virgin Sun A320s on occasion
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3081
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:40 pm

FlyingColours wrote:
I think that you are talking about flight VS510, it's only been operating sporadically since the start of September and I'm guessing it is operating repatriation flights as a lot of Brits were stuck in Italy when the lockdowns began a few months ago.

Phil
FlyingColours

Italy hasn't been in lockdown since June although the near future is starting to look no so bright- future lockdowns will be regional and not countrywide.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8965
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:46 pm

Def Virgin Atlantic did Gatwick to NL with a Viscount, consensus here seems to be Maastricht but I thought it was Rotterdam? Whichever, I think for promotion they might have sent a jumbo once or twice. Interesting way to cross the North Sea. Around the same time, Sabena had a JV with British Caledonian so a SN 747 did BRU-LGW-JFK-LGW-BRU a few days a week. BRU-LGW on a SN 747, MST/RTM-LGW on a VS Viscount (or maybe 747), very nice!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ZuluTime
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:24 pm

The BAF Viscount did LGW-MST for Virgin Atlantic for sure. An earlier venture saw BCal using a BAF Viscount (which was also in full BCal colours at the time) on LGW-BRU.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3147
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: Virgin Atlantic Short Haul

Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:27 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Def Virgin Atlantic did Gatwick to NL with a Viscount, consensus here seems to be Maastricht but I thought it was Rotterdam? Whichever, I think for promotion they might have sent a jumbo once or twice. Interesting way to cross the North Sea. Around the same time, Sabena had a JV with British Caledonian so a SN 747 did BRU-LGW-JFK-LGW-BRU a few days a week. BRU-LGW on a SN 747, MST/RTM-LGW on a VS Viscount (or maybe 747), very nice!


Virgin and Maastricht Airport go a long way back.............










Today Virgin Atlantic has an extensive short-haul and long-haul network from 17 UK airports via AMS to 61 destinations in Europe and North America in codeshare with KLM / Air France.
This permits Virgin to sell GLA-FCO, EDI-ATL, NCL-LAX, MAN-BER, BHX-VCE, CWL-FLR, BRS-YYZ, HUY-BOD, ABZ-IAH, BHD-MEX, LCY-JFK etc, etc, etc....

- AMS-AAL
- AMS-ABZ
- AMS-AES
- AMS-ARN
- AMS-ATH
- AMS-BCN
- AMS-BER
- AMS-BGO
- AMS-BHD
- AMS-BHX
- AMS-BIO
- AMS-BLL
- AMS-BOD
- AMS-BRE
- AMS-BRS
- AMS-BRU
- AMS-BSL
- AMS-CDG
- AMS-CPH
- AMS-CWL
- AMS-DRS
- AMS-DUB
- AMS-DUS
- AMS-EDI
- AMS-FCO
- AMS-FLR
- AMS-FRA
- AMS-GDN
- AMS-GLA
- AMS-GOA
- AMS-GOT
- AMS-HAM
- AMS-HAJ
- AMS-HEL
- AMS-HUY
- AMS-INV
- AMS-KRK
- AMS-LBA
- AMS-LCY
- AMS-LHR
- AMS-LIS
- AMS-LUX
- AMS-LYS
- AMS-MAD
- AMS-MAN
- AMS-MPL
- AMS-MRS
- AMS-MUC
- AMS-MXP
- AMS-NCE
- AMS-NCL
- AMS-NWI
- AMS-NTE
- AMS-NUE
- AMS-OPO
- AMS-OSL
- AMS-POZ
- AMS-PRG
- AMS-RNS
- AMS-SOU
- AMS-STR
- AMS-SVG
- AMS-TLS
- AMS-VCE
- AMS-VLC
- AMS-WAW
- AMS-WRO
- AMS-ZRH

- AMS-ATL
- AMS-BOS
- AMS-DTW
- AMS-IAD
- AMS-IAH
- AMS-JFK
- AMS-LAX
- AMS-MEX
- AMS-ORD
- AMS-SEA
- AMS-YYZ

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