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B747forever
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:48 pm

Sad to hear about yet another airline ending operations. Had a good experience with them last year flying LAX-MXP. Was also very convenient to have a nonstop flight to Milan.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
MCTSET
Posts: 196
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Re: IG (Air Italy) winding up?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:51 pm

FatCat wrote:
Blerg wrote:
FatCat wrote:
they will ask for public money - what a new thing to do, right?
prepare yourself for endless speculation on who will buy IG between LH and DL and other major airlines - the truth is, no one cares about an airline with 15 routes of which 16 are in a loss...


But why would anyone want to buy them? I mean do they have any real, valuable assets?

Nope.
Apart of the former Eastern Airlines B737 still in Eastern Airlines colour scheme and some two or three grounded MAXs. But IIRC all the planes are leased.
The A332s were former Qatar's.
The most valuable assets are the flying crews. But I don't see much of a worry finding a job for an A33x / A34x certified pilot - LH, IB, KL are the first majors flying that kind of planes that come to my mind - and less worries for a B73x licensed pilot - easy with FR. Also cabin crews will find a job quickly. But it's better for anyone wanting to acquire IG's assets to wait for them to go bankrupt, and employ crews with huge fiscal advantages.


It’s not that easy for the crew to get a new job, the airlines which you mentioned for the airbus crew are national carriers which require you to speak the language which I doubt most do as they are probably Italians. For the 737 crew it’s not that easy, FR have stooped hiring since the MAX situation and have actually laid off crew, can’t think of any other European 737 airline that is hiring significantly right now. So it is a difficult situation for the crew.
 
debonair
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:15 pm

enilria wrote:
This seems odd. Why have somebody else operate the flights for 2 weeks? Is this required by some law?


I guess not, but ENAC the Italian Civil Aviation Authority seems very passenger focused. Remember the shut down of Ernest Airlines - they kept the AOC also for 2 more weeks to bring passengers home.
 
Breathe
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Re: IG (Air Italy) winding up?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:24 pm

LH748 wrote:
Maybe the Gulf carriers finally learn the lesson that building a global empire won't work
EK was clever enough (so far) to not buy themselves into potential markets

EK did buy a 40% stake in Air Ceylon (which they helped to rebrand as Sri Lankan) and did rather well turning it around, but ended up selling the stake due to what they cited as Government interference in the day-to-day running of the operations of the airline.

Back on topic, what a shame for all those workers. This literally must have come out of the blue for them.
 
fessor
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:53 pm

IWMBH wrote:
And another one bites the dust, sad for the workers that lose their jobs. Seems like it impossible these days to run a airline in Italy.


And it gets even harder because of the government keep support AZ
 
dstblj52
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:06 pm

fessor wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
And another one bites the dust, sad for the workers that lose their jobs. Seems like it impossible these days to run a airline in Italy.


And it gets even harder because of the government keep support AZ

Even without alitalia its a leasure focused highly seasonal market with limited business travel in a country where their are no obvious hub locations that are optimal
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: IG (Air Italy) winding up?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:19 pm

Someone83 wrote:

And also making an important statement towards the US3, claiming they subsidized or illegaly fully controlled IG


:checkmark: This. It does make the US3 argument tougher.
 
crazy
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:26 pm

Yet another bad news for Italy, civil aviation world and employees.
This is the summary for who doesn't know the airline and its previous situation:
Air Italy, ex Meridiana (once Alisarda, then Meridiana, then a triple merge Meridiana + Air Italy + Eurofly = Meridianafly = Meridiana)...has been liquidated.
The airplanes have been grounded as technical stop, the shareholders have declared bankruptcy.
The story of Air Italy is strange:
1) Meridiana (ex Alisarda) has been the "airline of Sardinia island for many years, owner Aga Khan, with an important role in the "territorial continuity" that is the link among the "continent" (Rome and Milan) and Sardinia island (one of the two main Italian islands), especially the north-east of Sardinia. An important operator of MD-80's.
2) Meridiana bought Air Italy (the first Air Italy). New airplanes in the fleet, B737-700WL, B737-800WL, B767-300 and B767-200.
3) Meridiana bought Eurofly. This new airline was flying the A320 and A330-200 Eurofly + B737-700WL, B737-800WL, MD-80, B767-300 and B767-200 Meridiana.
At this point Meridiana was an airline with three heads: Meridiana - Air Italy- Eurofly.
Many problems, three different feelings, three "bodies", three different ways to see the way to develop the airlines.
4) Qatar Airways bought 49% of Meridiana, new livery, B737 MAX, new name: Air Italy. Fleet: A330-200 ex Qatar Airways, B737-800WL and B737 MAX8 (grounded because of Boeing disaster).
5) Today, Air Italy liquidated by the three main shareholders, Aga Khan, Qatar Airways and Air Italy.
Flight will continue until February 25th with airplanes of other airlines, this to protect the passengers already booked a ticket.
1.200 employees without a future.
 
debonair
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:00 pm

JPhoto wrote:
Does anybody know who will operate their flights until the 25th?


In the moment TayranJet is operating 2 B737, Lumiwings 1 B737 and Bulgaria Air 2 E190... On top Wamos just sended EC-MJS, EC-NCK, EC-MTT and EC-MNY to Milan.
 
SDL
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:06 pm

If i was a 737 pilot with Much experience and didn’t mind to live in Seattle for a while I would contact Boeing. I guess they will need extra pilots when/if they get the max back in the air.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:28 pm

crazy wrote:
1) Meridiana (ex Alisarda) has been the "airline of Sardinia island for many years, owner Aga Khan, with an important role in the "territorial continuity" that is the link among the "continent" (Rome and Milan) and Sardinia island (one of the two main Italian islands), especially the north-east of Sardinia. An important operator of MD-80's.

This how it started.. took this picture at Olbia airport just some six months ago:

Image

Sad, I really hope the employees will find a new job quickly.
 
AZa346
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:40 pm

Is this actually the end or one could still have some hope??
 
crazy
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:11 pm

Aga Khan, the owner of 51% of Air Italy (Alisarda group) isn't unable to put money, he simply decided not to put more money in an airline he no more recognize and without a plan for future development.
Qatar Airways has the founds to make Air Italy alive but they can't invest the 350 millino euro needed because they should buy more shares exceeding 49%: for European laws becoming a majority shareholder Qatar Airways would lose the possibility/license to fly European skies.
 
crazy
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:15 pm

What makes me particularly sad, along with the 1.200 employees losing their job, is that a glorious airline like Meridiana, a private airline that for 67 years has flown with private money, is disappearing, while Alitalia, an airline wasting our money since about 30 years, continues to fly!
And nobody, nobody decide to close it saving our (taxpayers) money!!!
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:47 pm

crazy wrote:
What makes me particularly sad, along with the 1.200 employees losing their job, is that a glorious airline like Meridiana, a private airline that for 67 years has flown with private money, is disappearing, while Alitalia, an airline wasting our money since about 30 years, continues to fly!
And nobody, nobody decide to close it saving our (taxpayers) money!!!


Meridiana has never been a glorious airline and it's not true that it hasn't slurped up taxpayer money.
For the past 15 years it has been on life support, and a lot of taxpayer money has vanished into it through many programs, including but not limited to the continuita territoriale and cassa integrazione. I also recall the Sardinian region providing matching funds for 100 millions in recapitalisation about a decade ago.

Sardinia is probably going to launch a new airline together with private partners.
With the end of the continuita territoriale, Air Italy gone, AZ an unknown, the LCC's unreliable and the need for a structural reform of air connections to sustain the dominant tourism sector, there is no other choice.
In the meanwhile, I can see Easyjet filling some voids left by IG in OLB.

Qatar could have recapitalised IG by itself if they wanted to, by diluting its share in the recapitalisation.
For instance, 200 millions could have been added unilaterally without anything in exchange, or even in exchange for dividends or some form of kickback through the aircraft that QR lease to IG.
That AK didn't want to recapitalise is a mere excuse.
It was just a poor investment decision without a long term vision and they realised that it would cost them a lot of money to do what they had in mind, without the certainty of any ROI.
IMO AAB is an overrated airline manager. He has unlimited funds and a free airport at his disposal and still can't even make QR profitable.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:17 pm

So the 737 MAX issue was the main reason for their demise, or was it merely the nail in the coffin and was doomed anyway? If anything, it's surprising that it collapsed so quickly, but it seems that ambitious newcomers have had a pretty bad track record lately (VietJet not withstanding).
 
Zaf
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:53 pm

Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:57 pm

Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.


That is the whole point. Italy cannot support two "legacy" carriers when bigger markets like Germany (Air Berlin bankrupt), the UK (BMI absorbed by BA), France or Spain (Air Europa absorbed by Iberia) cannot.
 
Zaf
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:23 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.


That is the whole point. Italy cannot support two "legacy" carriers when bigger markets like Germany (Air Berlin bankrupt), the UK (BMI absorbed by BA), France or Spain (Air Europa absorbed by Iberia) cannot.

Air Berlin went bankrupt because they took over LTU. DUS and TXL are not the best hubs. LH is where the money is (MUC and FRA).
UK is very London centric. It's indeed difficult to compete with BA from LON.
France and Spain don't count.
Alitalia at FCO for tourists and Meridiana in MXP for business travelers could work.
 
alan3
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:23 pm

Aren't many of their routes already operated by Neos or Blue Panorama anyway (like the Maldvies, Red Sea, Africa, etc)? I guess there's no real net loss of any unique routes that aren't already operated by those guys or Alitalia.
Last edited by alan3 on Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:28 pm

Zaf wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.


That is the whole point. Italy cannot support two "legacy" carriers when bigger markets like Germany (Air Berlin bankrupt), the UK (BMI absorbed by BA), France or Spain (Air Europa absorbed by Iberia) cannot.

Air Berlin went bankrupt because they took over LTU. DUS and TXL are not the best hubs. LH is where the money is (MUC and FRA).
UK is very London centric. It's indeed difficult to compete with BA from LON.
France and Spain don't count.
Alitalia at FCO for tourists and Meridiana in MXP for business travelers could work.

Yeah a highly price sensitive measure market with massive seasonal fluctuations sound like the ideal market for a fsc it would be like starting one of the US3 carrier starting a hub in MCO
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:22 am

alan3 wrote:
Aren't many of their routes already operated by Neos or Blue Panorama anyway (like the Maldvies, Red Sea, Africa, etc)? I guess there's no real net loss of any unique routes that aren't already operated by those guys or Alitalia.

They don’t have a single route indeed which isn’t already operated by at least one other airline.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:47 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.


That is the whole point. Italy cannot support two "legacy" carriers when bigger markets like Germany (Air Berlin bankrupt), the UK (BMI absorbed by BA), France or Spain (Air Europa absorbed by Iberia) cannot.


There's still Virgin Atlantic in UK, which (technically) is now a larger player as they're absorbing flybe.

Italian aviation will always be a mess...Milan is where the money is but its dual airport situation is making it hard to hub there, while Rome while a single airport just doesn't have the money.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:18 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.


That is the whole point. Italy cannot support two "legacy" carriers when bigger markets like Germany (Air Berlin bankrupt), the UK (BMI absorbed by BA), France or Spain (Air Europa absorbed by Iberia) cannot.


There's still Virgin Atlantic in UK, which (technically) is now a larger player as they're absorbing flybe.

Italian aviation will always be a mess...Milan is where the money is but its dual airport situation is making it hard to hub there, while Rome while a single airport just doesn't have the money.

And virgin atlantic's survival was very much in doubt before they got amalgamated as delta uk, who essentially function as a lower cost easier to route transatlantic producer for delta
 
OB1504
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Re: IG (Air Italy) winding up?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:15 am

LH748 wrote:
Maybe the Gulf carriers finally learn the lesson that building a global empire won't work
EK was clever enough (so far) to not buy themselves into potential markets


Tell that to Delta.

The problem was Etihad and Qatar’s specific choices of airlines and markets.
 
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spinkid
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:23 am

JPhoto wrote:
Does anybody know who will operate their flights until the 25th?


I was wondering the same thing. My first thought was if I could book a cheap ticket with them before the 26th until I saw that.
Maybe Qatar?

Plenty of Asian carriers like Cathay with spare planes at the moment if they need wet leases.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:31 am

spinkid wrote:
JPhoto wrote:
Does anybody know who will operate their flights until the 25th?


I was wondering the same thing. My first thought was if I could book a cheap ticket with them before the 26th until I saw that.
Maybe Qatar?

Plenty of Asian carriers like Cathay with spare planes at the moment if they need wet leases.


Today: Wamos, Albastar, Neos, and Tayarn Jet.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 7198442497
 
anstar
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:40 am

Any idea who will pick up theirs PSO flying like OLB-FCO etc? Alitalia?
 
AZa346
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:46 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Aren't many of their routes already operated by Neos or Blue Panorama anyway (like the Maldvies, Red Sea, Africa, etc)? I guess there's no real net loss of any unique routes that aren't already operated by those guys or Alitalia.

They don’t have a single route indeed which isn’t already operated by at least one other airline.

I am not aware of anyone flying mxp-sfo/lax non stop. Milan and Rome are not that close and if one has to connect from Milan he will never go to rome when FRA CDG AMS or even JFK are way more in the way that Rome will ever be for North America flights....
 
oschkosch
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:52 am

I flew on IG once, always good to have these short lived airlines in the log!

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artflyer
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:53 am

debonair wrote:
enilria wrote:
This seems odd. Why have somebody else operate the flights for 2 weeks? Is this required by some law?


I guess not, but ENAC the Italian Civil Aviation Authority seems very passenger focused. Remember the shut down of Ernest Airlines - they kept the AOC also for 2 more weeks to bring passengers home.



It's not bankruptcy. It's liquidation. Flying for another two weeks saves them the need to pay compensations for cancelled flights under eu regulation 261. Cancellation at least two weeks before the flight = no right to compensation.
 
FatCat
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:19 am

Planes are all grounded.
It's so embarassing. I had the issue of JP4 (an Italian aviation magazine) in my hands yesterday on which the new Air Italy was announced. Full of hopes and dreams, new planes (50 737-MAX8 and up to 25 787-8) a lot of new routes... same fate as for Ernest... and for every other italian airline apart of the zombie of the nation, AZ... that in fact has more than 60M passengers without even flying them...
Airlines are a US thing. Big distances, real competition, big airports, room for improvement... EU is clogged and let's face it - high speed trains can connect way more easily the majority of EU cities without having to take a plane.

I'm a bit sad because my very first flight on an airliner was on a Meridiana MD-83, I-SMEN, VRN-FCO...
Farewell Meridiana

Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
speedbird52
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:44 am

Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.

Why is Europe allowed to have like 4 major airline companies? Isn't this the textbook definition of monopolization of industry? IAG, Lufthansa Group, Ryanair, and Easyjet seem to control most of the continents operations. Wouldn't you think regulators would want to keep companies from getting too big via consolidation? If I am ignorant in some ways on the subject, I would not take offense to someone explaining why.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:45 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Why is Europe allowed to have like 4 major airline companies? Isn't this the textbook definition of monopolization of industry? IAG, Lufthansa Group, Ryanair, and Easyjet seem to control most of the continents operations. Wouldn't you think regulators would want to keep companies from getting too big via consolidation? If I am ignorant in some ways on the subject, I would not take offense to someone explaining why.


I agree and disagree to be honest. There are three major hub groups (IAG, AF/KL and LH, all with JVs over the Atlantic) and three or four major/big name LCCs (Ryanair Group, easyJet, Wizz and Norwegian). This seems adequate.
You’re ignoring AF/KL for a start. Not to mention the smaller airlines like SAS, Finnair, Norwegian, Alitalia, LOT, etc. Wizzair should also get honourable mention. easyJet and Ryanair have grown organically for the most part - both have acquired small airlines, GB Airways and LaudaMotion respectively. The there is competition from TK and the ME3 for eastbound services. Competition in Europe is ferocious, fares are very low, arguably too low and further consolidation is the only way to survive. Service levels, legroom in Y and staffing have already been reduced drastically and fees And ancillaries have increased. It depends if you want still lower fares or higher service? In the days of Skyscanner and the internet would more airlines lead to lower fares or better service? I think they are binary choices. You can’t have both.
 
moa999
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:46 am

FatCat wrote:
Full of hopes and dreams, new planes (50 737-MAX8 and up to 25 787-8) a lot of new routes... same fate as for Ernest...


I think the hope was that the Italian Government would finally bite the bullet and restructure Air Italia which would open up opportunities and better pricing.
Hard to compete against a loss making government funded carrier unless you go the LCC route.

Suspect SQ had a similar thesis with Vistara in India.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:54 am

Does anyone who what was the last flight operated by an Air Italy aircraft before the fleet was grounded?
 
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Antaras
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:00 pm

Let me guess: some more white-tail MAX 8 in coming?
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Antaras
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:01 pm

Is that the Italian av market is too 'cruel'. Both Air Italia and Alitalia are both struggling to survive?
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Cointrin330
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:15 pm

Antaras wrote:
Is that the Italian aviation market is too 'cruel'. Both Air Italia and Alitalia are both struggling to survive?


Italy definitely did not need two intercontinental airlines, that is for sure. The problems with Italy's aviation market are complex and structural. High speed train service, specifically between Milan and Rome has all but killed off what was once a very big and profitable domestic trunk route, and it was owned by AZ.

The country's airport structure isn't ideal. MXP is some distance from the city center and not very efficiently connected to it. AZ made MXP its main intercontinental hub from 1998 to 2008 and it could not make it work. The short-haul network into Europe to help feed long haul flights would not produce enough traffic to break even, and AZ had and still does have a sizable presence at LIN, which is just a few miles from Milan but cannot support long haul routes. It is hemmed in and there is no room to grow it. The split MXP/LIN operation was just too costly. AZ gave up, moved the long haul route network back to FCO while retaining JFK, NRT, and for a time, MIA out of MXP. You would think FCO is well positioned geographically to be a connecting hub linking Africa, the Middle East, and even Asia, but Rome is overwhelmingly a leisure destination and the O&D traffic there not strong enough. FCO airport had undergone major expension but its operations across multiple terminals also not optimized for seamless connections.

Then you have Italy's powerful and influential unions who have had a stranglehold on AZ for decades (AZ last turned a profit in 1997). AZ lives on because the government keeps pouring money into it. It is a national icon and once the symbol of Italy's Post WWII resurgence. Politically, letting it fail and seeing 12,500 employees lose their jobs is a cost too high for any Italian government, left or right. So, Italy being what it is, would simply rather violate every EU covenant and plow more funds into AZ to keep it running. There will be no buyers. No interest in turning it around. It has been attempted before, many times, with only massive losses and the same rotten core of problems left unresolved. The airline's unions and its management structure are toxic.

Air Italy was destined to fail, once the MAX was grounded and faced the same issues AZ had with an MXP hub. None of its routes made any money. Too much competition on JFK, BKK is a leisure route and was quickly axed, ACC is an oddball route for an Italian airline, DEL and BOM also not suited for Air Italy's structure. ORD, LAX turned seasonal on a dime. In short, no feed, intransigent employees, a mixed bag of a product, and tons of competition everywhere they flew, particularly NYC, which is saturated with AZ, EK, UA, DL, and AA all flying it year round.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:25 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Does anyone who what was the last flight operated by an Air Italy aircraft before the fleet was grounded?

Based on FR24, last flight should be IG672 landed in MXP from SFU on 11th Feb 2020 2:14pm local time. Aircraft B737-86N EI-FNW

Last A332 IG884 landed in MXP on same day 12:11pm local time from DKR. Aircraft A330-202 EI-GFX.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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Aisak
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:28 pm

Zaf wrote:
Perhaps IAG can buy the 51%. Italy should have 2 legacy carriers and both should be profitable when well managed.

People seem to forget that IAG does already have an airline based in Italy.
Vueling has an extensive base at FCO and even some connections were being offered thru the airport (don't know if that's still the case) Also every single BA flight to Italy carries a VY codeshare and there is even a Vueling-branded credit card in Italy.

Given IAG is not 100% EU owned/controlled it would have been hard to hold an argument against the EU authorites (yet another one) if QR owned 49% while the ther half+1 is not in 100% EU-hands. Bear also in mind that QR owns part of IAG so the picture is cristal clear: directly and/or indirectly QR would own more than 50%
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:38 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Why is Europe allowed to have like 4 major airline companies? Isn't this the textbook definition of monopolization of industry? IAG, Lufthansa Group, Ryanair, and Easyjet seem to control most of the continents operations. Wouldn't you think regulators would want to keep companies from getting too big via consolidation? If I am ignorant in some ways on the subject, I would not take offense to someone explaining why.


I agree and disagree to be honest. There are three major hub groups (IAG, AF/KL and LH, all with JVs over the Atlantic) and three or four major/big name LCCs (Ryanair Group, easyJet, Wizz and Norwegian). This seems adequate.
You’re ignoring AF/KL for a start. Not to mention the smaller airlines like SAS, Finnair, Norwegian, Alitalia, LOT, etc. Wizzair should also get honourable mention. easyJet and Ryanair have grown organically for the most part - both have acquired small airlines, GB Airways and LaudaMotion respectively. The there is competition from TK and the ME3 for eastbound services. Competition in Europe is ferocious, fares are very low, arguably too low and further consolidation is the only way to survive. Service levels, legroom in Y and staffing have already been reduced drastically and fees And ancillaries have increased. It depends if you want still lower fares or higher service? In the days of Skyscanner and the internet would more airlines lead to lower fares or better service? I think they are binary choices. You can’t have both.


It gets to the question: How many airlines is enough?

If you find city pair (not airport pair) competition on medium volume routes, and four or more carriers on high volume routes, you probably have enough price competition. More doesn't necessarily mean a healthier industry. Price competition is great for consumers but well-run carriers need to earn a satisfactory rate of return averaged over the business cycle.
 
AZa346
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:38 pm

https://www.lastampa.it/economia/2020/02/12/news/ryanair-prepara-un-offerta-per-airitaly-1.38460858
It is in italian, but it appears that tomorrow there will be a meeting with Ryanair that MIGHT be interested in investing in Air italy
 
tomcat
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:22 pm

Seems like Ryanair is about to make an announcement in relation to Air Italy:

The Irish airline Ryanair would have expressed interest in taking over as partners to keep Air Italy alive.


Just tomorrow a meeting is scheduled in Milan where Ryanair's top management will attend and will probably reveal the intentions of the Irish company.


https://www.olbianotizie.it/articolo/48387-ryanair_potrebbe_salvare_air_italy_pronta_un_offerta
 
crazy
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:33 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:29 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
crazy wrote:
What makes me particularly sad, along with the 1.200 employees losing their job, is that a glorious airline like Meridiana, a private airline that for 67 years has flown with private money, is disappearing, while Alitalia, an airline wasting our money since about 30 years, continues to fly!
And nobody, nobody decide to close it saving our (taxpayers) money!!!


Meridiana has never been a glorious airline and it's not true that it hasn't slurped up taxpayer money.
For the past 15 years it has been on life support, and a lot of taxpayer money has vanished into it through many programs, including but not limited to the continuita territoriale and cassa integrazione. I also recall the Sardinian region providing matching funds for 100 millions in recapitalisation about a decade ago.

Sardinia is probably going to launch a new airline together with private partners.
With the end of the continuita territoriale, Air Italy gone, AZ an unknown, the LCC's unreliable and the need for a structural reform of air connections to sustain the dominant tourism sector, there is no other choice.
In the meanwhile, I can see Easyjet filling some voids left by IG in OLB.

Qatar could have recapitalised IG by itself if they wanted to, by diluting its share in the recapitalisation.
For instance, 200 millions could have been added unilaterally without anything in exchange, or even in exchange for dividends or some form of kickback through the aircraft that QR lease to IG.
That AK didn't want to recapitalise is a mere excuse.
It was just a poor investment decision without a long term vision and they realised that it would cost them a lot of money to do what they had in mind, without the certainty of any ROI.
IMO AAB is an overrated airline manager. He has unlimited funds and a free airport at his disposal and still can't even make QR profitable.

An airline with about 60 years of history is glorious, and Meridiana has a glorious past as few airlines in Italy and in Europe.
 
alan3
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:38 pm

Sad for the job losses but I could see Volotea maybe taking over that original Meridiana role (Sardinia, Sicily) and Neos and Blue Panorama already fly to many of Air Italy's long haul destinations popular with Italian (Maldives, etc)
 
tomcat
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 4:14 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:46 pm

alan3 wrote:
Sad for the job losses but I could see Volotea maybe taking over that original Meridiana role (Sardinia, Sicily) and Neos and Blue Panorama already fly to many of Air Italy's long haul destinations popular with Italian (Maldives, etc)


What makes you reach this conclusion the day before Ryanair will make an announcement in Milan in relation to Air Italy?
 
alan3
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:51 pm

tomcat wrote:
alan3 wrote:
Sad for the job losses but I could see Volotea maybe taking over that original Meridiana role (Sardinia, Sicily) and Neos and Blue Panorama already fly to many of Air Italy's long haul destinations popular with Italian (Maldives, etc)


What makes you reach this conclusion the day before Ryanair will make an announcement in Milan in relation to Air Italy?


I hadn't noticed your post....was just speculation. I see it now
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1208
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:58 pm

With Ryanair you never know, but I doubt that they'd even touch Air Italy with a stick.
They probably just want to take a look at the books, to know the yields and loads IG got on CAG-MXP and MXP-CTA, MXP-SUF, routes that are in direct competition with FR.

Don't hold your breath.

Plus Ryanair have a totally different vision than QR.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Updated: IG (Air Italy) Ending Operations

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:15 pm

How would Ryanair "acquire" Air Italy anyway? Just the slots?

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