Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:55 am

Why is their currently no service on any sky team carrier to PHL? While it is an AA hub and OneWorld carriers tend to prefer the airport LH also services the city, along with EI who codeshares with UA. I think AF/KLM/VS could easily make a profit on any single one of those routes.
 
boeing773er
Posts: 525
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:23 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:56 am

DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26159
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:00 am

Air France flew to Philadelphia and discontinued it. Delta tried both Paris (replacing AF) and London-Heathrow in the past few years to no success.
a.
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:06 am

boeing773er wrote:
DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.


I don’t believe EI is in the JV yet, but I may be wrong. Any chance a sky team carrier adds PHL?
 
dstblj52
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:14 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.


I don’t believe EI is in the JV yet, but I may be wrong. Any chance a sky team carrier adds PHL?

If you count delta friends who are not officially in Skyteam WestJet might but beyond that probably not
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7790
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:21 am

PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete. Besides, part of DLs problem at PHL was the equipment they were using. Running a 757 against AA and BA wide body service will put you at a disadvantage. Additionally, they "shoe horned" the flights into the DL terminal that was completely overcrowded and uncomfortable. There was nothing pleasant about the DL 757 experience from PHL to Europe. It was doomed from the start.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:08 am

boeing773er wrote:
DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.


You'll also note that AA withdrew from PHL - FRA / MUC as well which has also aided LH's service viability in PHL.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:09 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.


I don’t believe EI is in the JV yet, but I may be wrong. Any chance a sky team carrier adds PHL?


Their entry in the JV has been submitted to the authorities for review.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2693
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:40 am

chepos wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
DL

I’m assuming you meant European carriers.
EI is in the JV with AA/BA/IB, also can be flown on 757.

LH used to partner with US, and has flown to PHL for awhile now? I think that they built the contracts in PHL to keep the base viable.

PHL’s demand is eaten up by AA, quite simply.


I don’t believe EI is in the JV yet, but I may be wrong. Any chance a sky team carrier adds PHL?


Their entry in the JV has been submitted to the authorities for review.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What’s the status on that? It’s been like what? A year and two months or so? Though, AA/QF took a year and four months to get approved. How long did it take to integrate VS into the DL/AF/KL JV?
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:49 am

Ishrion wrote:
chepos wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

I don’t believe EI is in the JV yet, but I may be wrong. Any chance a sky team carrier adds PHL?


Their entry in the JV has been submitted to the authorities for review.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What’s the status on that? It’s been like what? A year and two months or so? Though, AA/QF took a year and four months to get approved. How long did it take to integrate VS into the DL/AF/KL JV?


Yeah, those things take time for approval, it usually takes a year and change. I know the EI entrance to the JV was announced in late DEC 2018.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4707
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 am

Because PHL is well served to Europe already. It's not a great unserved market they have to serve. Probably the most overserved city in America going off population to Europe. Any skyteam super fan can connect in BOS.

There are much better opportunities out there if your goal is to make money
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1053
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:11 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Because PHL is well served to Europe already. It's not a great unserved market they have to serve. Probably the most overserved city in America going off population to Europe. Any skyteam super fan can connect in BOS.

There are much better opportunities out there if your goal is to make money


I’m not sure how you can refer to PHL as the most over served city to Europe when PHL doesn’t even have connections to cities such as FRA/MUC/MXP/TLV. If anything PHL is underserved in comparison to others.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:23 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Because PHL is well served to Europe already. It's not a great unserved market they have to serve. Probably the most overserved city in America going off population to Europe. Any skyteam super fan can connect in BOS.

There are much better opportunities out there if your goal is to make money


I’m not sure how you can refer to PHL as the most over served city to Europe when PHL doesn’t even have connections to cities such as FRA/MUC/MXP/TLV. If anything PHL is underserved in comparison to others.


As has been mentioned upthread already, PHL does have a FRA flight in the way of LH. While the other three markets are not currently served (they have in the past) PHL does have an adequate amount of Transatlantic service.

SkyTeam has tried flying TA service in the past out of PHL, considering the dynamics in the market they have determined they can better utilize resources elsewhere.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
kavok
Posts: 815
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:37 pm

A similar question could be asked why doesn’t OW serve DTW on TATL? Switch the players around, and you get the same answer. Both DTW and PHL are Fortress hubs with similarly sized cachement areas. Both have numerous flights to Europe, albeit on the local alliance carrier. And both are also served by LH. Lots of similarities.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5137
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:49 pm

crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete. Besides, part of DLs problem at PHL was the equipment they were using. Running a 757 against AA and BA wide body service will put you at a disadvantage. Additionally, they "shoe horned" the flights into the DL terminal that was completely overcrowded and uncomfortable. There was nothing pleasant about the DL 757 experience from PHL to Europe. It was doomed from the start.


Don't be ridiculous, DL stood no chance against AA in PHL, no matter what equipment they were using.

Did you look at the LFs on their flights?

Nicknuzzii wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Because PHL is well served to Europe already. It's not a great unserved market they have to serve. Probably the most overserved city in America going off population to Europe. Any skyteam super fan can connect in BOS.

There are much better opportunities out there if your goal is to make money


I’m not sure how you can refer to PHL as the most over served city to Europe when PHL doesn’t even have connections to cities such as FRA/MUC/MXP/TLV. If anything PHL is underserved in comparison to others.


I hope this is sarcasm....you are claiming PHL is underserved in comparison to others.....when PHL has service to CMN, BUD, DBV, VCE, PRG, e.t.c.

What others are you comparing it to?

Only US markets with connections to MXP are NYC, MIA, and ATL, not even Chicago, Boston, or Washington (especially with Air Italy gone)
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
EMB170
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:23 pm

I personally wish the TATL service from PHL on Skyteam would come back. Connecting in BOS is a PITA (because I'd have to connect a second time in CDG or AMS) which leaves me with no alternative but to drive up to JFK. I will not fly on AA as their service is horrible. BA is slightly better, but connecting in LHR is similarly irksome, and I just don't feel good about giving QR any money. Given how poorly AA reputably does on PHL-AMS, I'd personally think that PHL-AMS on DL or KL would be a no-brainer- they have the huge Schiphol hub to leverage for connections, and it gives them *some* presence in the market. I suppose, however, that's unlikely to happen until AF/KL right their ship financially.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
lowfareair
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:58 pm

crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete.


The other issue is 'bleed'. O&D pax at PHL look low because AA keeps prices high, especially for advance purchases with leisure travelers. There is significant savings to be had flying out of EWR/JFK/IAD and I know because I have saved thousands over the last decade doing so. Example: Picking July 4th week as an example (Jun 26-Jul 5), the cheapest route PHL-Europe with one stop or less is $967 on Google Flights; there are 2 total under $1000 on OW (GOT/MAN). NYC appears to have at least a couple dozen options, including many under $850. Some comparisons even outside of OW (NYC vs PHL, one stop or less, under 15h travel time each way, airline agnostic):

MAD: $566 vs $1593
BCN: $659 vs $1653
FCO: $939 vs $1636
LON: $653 vs $1053
PAR: $599 vs $1300
AMS: $777 vs $1134

A family of 4 can save $1400-$4100 flying out of NYC instead of PHL. With sacrificing a few hours each way, that family going to BCN can rent a limousine to/from the airport, add a 2nd hotel room instead of sharing one, have an amazing meal at ABaC, and still come out ahead saving money.

AA prices their TATL flights connecting through PHL competitively, but they treat tickets that start in PHL as if they have a monopoly rather than acknowledging some competition with the NYC airports for leisure travelers, making it look like demand from PHL is lower than it actually is.
 
iflyalexair
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:54 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:43 pm

crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete. Besides, part of DLs problem at PHL was the equipment they were using. Running a 757 against AA and BA wide body service will put you at a disadvantage. Additionally, they "shoe horned" the flights into the DL terminal that was completely overcrowded and uncomfortable. There was nothing pleasant about the DL 757 experience from PHL to Europe. It was doomed from the start.


I'd rather fly on a 757 TATL with personal entertainment than an AA widebody with nothing.
 
EMB170
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:39 pm

iflyalexair wrote:
crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete. Besides, part of DLs problem at PHL was the equipment they were using. Running a 757 against AA and BA wide body service will put you at a disadvantage. Additionally, they "shoe horned" the flights into the DL terminal that was completely overcrowded and uncomfortable. There was nothing pleasant about the DL 757 experience from PHL to Europe. It was doomed from the start.


I'd rather fly on a 757 TATL with personal entertainment than an AA widebody with nothing.


I would too, but I will be fair here: While DL tricks out their 757s (and AA's are genuinely awful inside), AA's A330 fleet do have decent IFE. Yes the 767s suck in Y but my understanding is that they're finally going away to be replaced by additional 787 a/c.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
BENFRANKLIN
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:34 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:51 pm

every major city has its “main carrier”. Philadelphia is Big AA hub. Pretty much they have Europe covered with some tweaking here and there. You have to look at demand. Demand = revenue. What city has a demand and that isn’t covered by AA ? AA & BA have a total of 3 flights daily to Heathrow with BA68 4 times a week as well. DL ran flights to Heathrow & Paris on a 757 years ago. With the 3 flights daily, I am almost positive it was a loss Of revenue for DL.
 
Bigant0408
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:58 pm

lowfareair wrote:
crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete.


The other issue is 'bleed'. O&D pax at PHL look low because AA keeps prices high, especially for advance purchases with leisure travelers. There is significant savings to be had flying out of EWR/JFK/IAD and I know because I have saved thousands over the last decade doing so. Example: Picking July 4th week as an example (Jun 26-Jul 5), the cheapest route PHL-Europe with one stop or less is $967 on Google Flights; there are 2 total under $1000 on OW (GOT/MAN). NYC appears to have at least a couple dozen options, including many under $850. Some comparisons even outside of OW (NYC vs PHL, one stop or less, under 15h travel time each way, airline agnostic):

MAD: $566 vs $1593
BCN: $659 vs $1653
FCO: $939 vs $1636
LON: $653 vs $1053
PAR: $599 vs $1300
AMS: $777 vs $1134

A family of 4 can save $1400-$4100 flying out of NYC instead of PHL. With sacrificing a few hours each way, that family going to BCN can rent a limousine to/from the airport, add a 2nd hotel room instead of sharing one, have an amazing meal at ABaC, and still come out ahead saving money.

AA prices their TATL flights connecting through PHL competitively, but they treat tickets that start in PHL as if they have a monopoly rather than acknowledging some competition with the NYC airports for leisure travelers, making it look like demand from PHL is lower than it actually is.


Very well put on everything you mentioned. As a PHL resident myself I couldn't agree more that the price comparisons between NYC/EWR and PHL are complete different for international and even domestic. I flew round PHL-CDG-PHL on a delta 757 back in 2013 and going to Paris the flight was almost empty to the point I had a whole row to myself to sleep. On the way back the flight was absolutely full. The prices for the flight were just about the same as American and for a smaller aircraft no less. IMO I pretty much don't see any Skyteam airline starting European service to PHL anytime soon. I know AMS is slot controlled so that's also tough situation as well.
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
crosswinds21
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:46 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:20 pm

lowfareair wrote:
crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete.


The other issue is 'bleed'. O&D pax at PHL look low because AA keeps prices high, especially for advance purchases with leisure travelers. There is significant savings to be had flying out of EWR/JFK/IAD and I know because I have saved thousands over the last decade doing so. Example: Picking July 4th week as an example (Jun 26-Jul 5), the cheapest route PHL-Europe with one stop or less is $967 on Google Flights; there are 2 total under $1000 on OW (GOT/MAN). NYC appears to have at least a couple dozen options, including many under $850. Some comparisons even outside of OW (NYC vs PHL, one stop or less, under 15h travel time each way, airline agnostic):

MAD: $566 vs $1593
BCN: $659 vs $1653
FCO: $939 vs $1636
LON: $653 vs $1053
PAR: $599 vs $1300
AMS: $777 vs $1134

A family of 4 can save $1400-$4100 flying out of NYC instead of PHL. With sacrificing a few hours each way, that family going to BCN can rent a limousine to/from the airport, add a 2nd hotel room instead of sharing one, have an amazing meal at ABaC, and still come out ahead saving money.

AA prices their TATL flights connecting through PHL competitively, but they treat tickets that start in PHL as if they have a monopoly rather than acknowledging some competition with the NYC airports for leisure travelers, making it look like demand from PHL is lower than it actually is.


I generally agree with this. As someone who is currently living in the PHL area, I don't even bother searching for international flights out of PHL anymore, because it's just a waste of time. I just default to NYC (both EWR and JFK are fine) and have saved a lot of money (and, in the case of award tickets, miles/points), when flying from there. For domestic flights, I still do search out of PHL, but even with that, I've generally found much better options out of NYC.

Regarding SkyTeam however, I really do think that this is a big hole. Not too long ago, Delta pulled their TATL flights out of EWR so now, there are no options on DL/AF/KL from anywhere between JFK and IAD...there's nothing out of EWR, PHL, or BWI. This is really surprising to me. Profitability issues aside, it does seem strange that such a large airline/alliance can't offer ANY international options at all from anywhere between JFK and IAD.
 
User avatar
Aisak
Posts: 927
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:04 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Air France flew to Philadelphia and discontinued it. Delta tried both Paris (replacing AF) and London-Heathrow in the past few years to no success.


And London Heathrow was even launched with a free slot courtesy of BA/AA JV. First dedicated LHR-PHL (along with LHR-MIA) and later allowed due to low demand to be a tag-on which run like LHR-PHL-ATL if I'm not mistaken...
 
n2dru
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:20 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Air France flew to Philadelphia and discontinued it. Delta tried both Paris (replacing AF) and London-Heathrow in the past few years to no success.


If I'm not mistaken PHL-LHR was never a market they wanted to stay in. It was only flown for the slot and once that mandatory timeframe passed DL moved that slot to a hub. The same with the MIA-LHR flight. So not necessarily a fail because they secured a LHR slot (that would have cost millions more to obtain if at all, especially during peak times).
 
FSDan
Posts: 3281
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:02 pm

EMB170 wrote:
Given how poorly AA reputably does on PHL-AMS, I'd personally think that PHL-AMS on DL or KL would be a no-brainer- they have the huge Schiphol hub to leverage for connections, and it gives them *some* presence in the market. I suppose, however, that's unlikely to happen until AF/KL right their ship financially.


I'd agree that PHL-AMS on DL/KL would likely be the best chance for SkyTeam to enter the PHL Transatlantic market in the future. However, up to this point, DL/KL have demonstrated that they think it's more worth it to have a flight to TPA, a 3rd daily to LAX, and a 5th daily to NYC from AMS than it is to try PHL.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 639
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:32 pm

FSDan wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
Given how poorly AA reputably does on PHL-AMS, I'd personally think that PHL-AMS on DL or KL would be a no-brainer- they have the huge Schiphol hub to leverage for connections, and it gives them *some* presence in the market. I suppose, however, that's unlikely to happen until AF/KL right their ship financially.


I'd agree that PHL-AMS on DL/KL would likely be the best chance for SkyTeam to enter the PHL Transatlantic market in the future. However, up to this point, DL/KL have demonstrated that they think it's more worth it to have a flight to TPA, a 3rd daily to LAX, and a 5th daily to NYC from AMS than it is to try PHL.

Maybe with more efficient aircraft the market could open up. Fantasy idea of Air France using a A321XLR to connect smaller city pairs. AMS would on KL or DL metal would be a pipeline dream for the PHL based fliers. Unfortunately DL is focused on BOS growth over trying to city pairs.
 
EMB170
Posts: 371
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:05 pm

n2dru wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Air France flew to Philadelphia and discontinued it. Delta tried both Paris (replacing AF) and London-Heathrow in the past few years to no success.


If I'm not mistaken PHL-LHR was never a market they wanted to stay in. It was only flown for the slot and once that mandatory timeframe passed DL moved that slot to a hub. The same with the MIA-LHR flight. So not necessarily a fail because they secured a LHR slot (that would have cost millions more to obtain if at all, especially during peak times).


Correct. In order for AA/BA to get their JV approved, they had to forfeit slots to DL on both PHL-LHR and MIA-LHR. DL, for its part, had to fly those routes for a minimum of I think 2 years in order to preserve some level of competition on the route as the DOT was concerned about PHL/MIA-LHR becoming monopoly routes.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26159
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:15 pm

EMB170 wrote:
n2dru wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Air France flew to Philadelphia and discontinued it. Delta tried both Paris (replacing AF) and London-Heathrow in the past few years to no success.


If I'm not mistaken PHL-LHR was never a market they wanted to stay in. It was only flown for the slot and once that mandatory timeframe passed DL moved that slot to a hub. The same with the MIA-LHR flight. So not necessarily a fail because they secured a LHR slot (that would have cost millions more to obtain if at all, especially during peak times).


Correct. In order for AA/BA to get their JV approved, they had to forfeit slots to DL on both PHL-LHR and MIA-LHR. DL, for its part, had to fly those routes for a minimum of I think 2 years in order to preserve some level of competition on the route as the DOT was concerned about PHL/MIA-LHR becoming monopoly routes.


Not entirely correct. The slots are leased to Delta and revert. The MIALHR slot already reverted (it was from 2008 with the BA ATI, not the US/AA merger). PHLLHR reverts in 2024.
a.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2663
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:25 am

Midwestindy wrote:
crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete. Besides, part of DLs problem at PHL was the equipment they were using. Running a 757 against AA and BA wide body service will put you at a disadvantage. Additionally, they "shoe horned" the flights into the DL terminal that was completely overcrowded and uncomfortable. There was nothing pleasant about the DL 757 experience from PHL to Europe. It was doomed from the start.


Don't be ridiculous, DL stood no chance against AA in PHL, no matter what equipment they were using.

Did you look at the LFs on their flights?

Nicknuzzii wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Because PHL is well served to Europe already. It's not a great unserved market they have to serve. Probably the most overserved city in America going off population to Europe. Any skyteam super fan can connect in BOS.

There are much better opportunities out there if your goal is to make money


I’m not sure how you can refer to PHL as the most over served city to Europe when PHL doesn’t even have connections to cities such as FRA/MUC/MXP/TLV. If anything PHL is underserved in comparison to others.


I hope this is sarcasm....you are claiming PHL is underserved in comparison to others.....when PHL has service to CMN, BUD, DBV, VCE, PRG, e.t.c.

What others are you comparing it to?

Only US markets with connections to MXP are NYC, MIA, and ATL, not even Chicago, Boston, or Washington (especially with Air Italy gone)


Don't be ridiculous? Well, you just basically repeated what I said!
 
phlphan
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:34 am

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:43 am

In Sept. 2019, I flew PHL-MAD roundtrip in coach for $487. I purchased the ticket 3 months in advance (June 2019). The A-332 was beautiful and the service was great! Driving to JFK for flights is nearly impossible!
 
PI4EVR
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:07 pm

I am flying in May, on a trip I booked on AA website last month. PHL-GLA/LHR-PHL. Fare RT in Y $548.
No incentive to look/price flights out of JFK/EWR and avoiding the car or train travel to get there. I'll do an easy ride on Septa to airport.
And fares on this routing and dates were more expensive on AA/BA from JFK.
A neighbor last year drive to EWR to fly to LIS to only discover after they returned that AA flew nonstop at about the same fare.
Its always worth to give AA and PHL a shot when comparing JFK/EWR or even a few I know that have driven to IAD.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7790
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:20 pm

crownvic wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL doesn't have the O&D of JFK, EWR, or even BOS. This is not a gaping hole in DL/AF/KL service.


That is an extremely inaccurate statement. Are you telling me that much smaller cities like PIT, CVG, RDU, etc. have more O&D? The main reason is that AA/OneWorld dominate at PHL making it tough for SkyTeam airlines to compete.


My statement is accurate: O&D is poor relative to competition. Is the OP going to ask why UA and AA don't run TATL from MSP or DTW, airports with comparable O&D? NYC, LAX and MIA (as examples) are markets biggest enough to have a bunch of competing carriers doing intercontinental service. PHL is not.

The frequent a.net practice of armchair route planning ignoring distance (and thus increments of capacity to fly the distance), competition, connections, PDEWs, city pair yield, and proximate hubs is really an intellectual embarrassment.
 
lowfareair
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: Sky Team at PHL

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:51 pm

PI4EVR wrote:
Its always worth to give AA and PHL a shot when comparing JFK/EWR or even a few I know that have driven to IAD.


Agreed, and living in South Philly I do that every time. I require a $150pp minimum price difference each way (I'll go slightly lower if I can cut down a stop flying out of NY vs PHL), and while domestic is 90% out of PHL, I find I'm flying TATL/TPAC out of PHL maybe 30% of the time due to much lower fares (or much better J availability if I'm using miles) out of JFK/IAD/EWR.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos