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n757kw
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:49 am

I don't get it, it is a simple fix. Or someone was not really thinking. Placard the lavatory as crew use only in multiple languages. Start with Dutch and a few more that are common to the airline's flights. Or just lock the lavatory when not in use by the crew.

Korean Air has several women only lavatories on their aircraft. The are placarded as such. I have embarrassed myself once when I come out and realize that I can't see the obvious placard above the door knob.

N757KW

N757KW
"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
 
hoons90
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:54 am

n757kw wrote:
Korean Air has several women only lavatories on their aircraft. The are placarded as such. I have embarrassed myself once when I come out and realize that I can't see the obvious placard above the door knob.


This could also be considered discrimination, but at least the message is clear for everyone on board.
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:42 am

[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973
Cheers,
C1973
 
FGITD
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:13 am

Perhaps South Korea would be wise to look in a mirror and face the discrimination within, before complaining about a paper sign on a lavatory door.

Seems like based on South Korean law, or lack thereof, discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexual preference etc etc etc is all well and good. If anything, I'd say it's a good thing this happened on KLM. The Dutch won't tolerate it and will take action. Can't say the same for the Korean airlines.
 
hoons90
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:40 am

FGITD wrote:
Perhaps South Korea would be wise to look in a mirror and face the discrimination within, before complaining about a paper sign on a lavatory door.


So are you insinuating that two wrongs make a right and thus Koreans cannot stand up against discrimination, because there's discrimination in Korea too?
Racism and discrimination in Korea (like in anywhere else) are reprehensible, but the millions and millions of Koreans that are woke (for the lack of a better term) should not have to suffer because someone believes that two wrongs make a right. It's not fair to the many Koreans that firmly stand against such discrimination in Korea.

By the logic you presented, anyone who simply happens to hail from a country with lots of discrimination (or lack of anti-discrimination protection) should stay silent while being discriminated against? Even if they personally stand for anti-discrimination values?

FGITD wrote:
Seems like based on South Korean law, or lack thereof, discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexual preference etc etc etc is all well and good. If anything, I'd say it's a good thing this happened on KLM. The Dutch won't tolerate it and will take action. Can't say the same for the Korean airlines.


It's funny how the presence of such anti-discrimination laws in Europe weren't enough to protect me from overt racism (even by a Deutsche Bahn employee on duty) in Europe. Not just that, but there are countless other stories/videos of acts of aggression and discourtesy aimed at Koreans and other Asians in Europe. Not suggesting that these laws don't matter, but their presence doesn't necessarily mean that discrimination is not a problem anymore.

For the record, there is a pending anti-discrimination bill that is currently stuck in limbo simply because religious zealots can't get over the fact that it includes sexual orientation. Remember that it wasn't all that long ago when sexual minorities weren't protected by anti-discrimination laws in many Western countries, and many of the breakthroughs are quite recent.
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ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:50 am

How the hell English and Dutch speaking passengers would be able to tell that that particular lavatory would be used for crew only?
I doubt all the passengers in that plane knows how to read in korean right?

Also, the FA caught in lies multiple times. No photos and the lavatory was unlocked, they only locked it after the problems arise.

Easy analysis.
 
mileduets
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:00 am

The issue reminds me of this pendent here that happend in my country in a hotel specialized in catering to Jewish guests: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/arosa_swis ... y/43413078
The parallels are striking. Both cases illustrate how a simple misjudgment/ error of an employee and lack of empathy on both sides can blow an issue completely out of proportion by making it a social media issue.
 
Blerg
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:09 am

juliuswong wrote:
The fact that the crew mentioned that they need to stay "healthy" in order to provide service to all passengers is insinuating they are discriminatory in nature. Koreans are very ethnocentric like Japanese, if KLM doesn't handles them tactfully, it will lead to a PR meltdown. So far, no post on Facebook yet, but their IG is hit with multiple posts.


Ethnocentric or not, they have left their countries and are flying on a foreign carrier. They need to adapt to these new circumstances. If they don't like it then maybe leaving their 'safe space' is not wise.
 
ME720
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:11 am

ewt340 wrote:
How the hell English and Dutch speaking passengers would be able to tell that that particular lavatory would be used for crew only?
I doubt all the passengers in that plane knows how to read in korean right?

Also, the FA caught in lies multiple times. No photos and the lavatory was unlocked, they only locked it after the problems arise.

Easy analysis.


That s the whole point. It was clear that the crew was willing to share the lavatory with non Koreans.
The sign was placed to keep Koreans out of that lavatory. Had it been in English, there would have
Been no issue. Worse case scenario, a serious racist
Incident, best case utter stupidity. In either case KLM must address this issue internally. They have already apologised publicly. Now they must make sure that it doesn’t happen again.
 
hoons90
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:15 am

Blerg wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
The fact that the crew mentioned that they need to stay "healthy" in order to provide service to all passengers is insinuating they are discriminatory in nature. Koreans are very ethnocentric like Japanese, if KLM doesn't handles them tactfully, it will lead to a PR meltdown. So far, no post on Facebook yet, but their IG is hit with multiple posts.


Ethnocentric or not, they have left their countries and are flying on a foreign carrier. They need to adapt to these new circumstances. If they don't like it then maybe leaving their 'safe space' is not wise.


The way I interpreted juliuswong's post was that Korean society is generally collectivist in nature (which, in fairness, can be reinforced by ethnic homogeneity), and that any perceived affront like in this case will be seen as an affront to all, and the pushback will be more collective/unified. Not really anything to do with imposing one's ethnocentric values in foreign environments.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:06 pm

hongkongflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure several airlines have this policy now.


But this is not a special evacuation flight, so you are comparing apple to orange.


The crew is accorded special privileges in every aspect of airline ops. No paid customer is going to say I am more important than the crew, because of their own safety at stake.

Bottom line, someone shouldn't have picked up a crumpled paper from the dust bin and copy from Google Translate.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:40 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure several airlines have this policy now.


But this is not a special evacuation flight, so you are comparing apple to orange.


The crew is accorded special privileges in every aspect of airline ops. No paid customer is going to say I am more important than the crew, because of their own safety at stake.

Bottom line, someone shouldn't have picked up a crumpled paper from the dust bin and copy from Google Translate.


Did you know that the virus wouldn't instantly killed the crew when they got it during that flight or even after they landed?
It takes at least couple of days.

Even if they got the virus (thankfully they don't). They would be able to do their job because they wouldn't die after a few hours.

Currently you are trying to justified the crew actions by amplified unjustified reasoning for something that doesn't make sense at all. Unless you could provide any proof that the virus would instantly killed the crew and prevented them from doing their job on that particular flight. Then I'm afraid your reasoning doesn't make any sense or have any correlation to the problems.
 
abrelosojos
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:09 pm

It is KLM. Have you seen the amount of racism and Dutch in Netherlands right now? Not surprised. And, the very nice "I do not give names". This was an Air France influence.

Saludos,
Alex
Last edited by abrelosojos on Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:09 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
It is KLM. Have you seen the amount of racism and Dutch in Netherlands right now? Not surprised.

And, the very nice "I do not give names". This was a Air France influence.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
juliuswong
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:31 pm

KLM formally apologise for "racist" toilet note.

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/regiona ... outh-korea

"On Friday, executives with KLM bowed as they publicly apologised at a news conference in Seoul, saying they take allegations of discrimination "very seriously" and promising to prevent it from happening again.

"This is a human mistake, and we don't take it lightly,"said Guillaume Glass, an Air France-KLM regional general manager. "We are deeply sorry that this was viewed as discrimination, which was absolutely not the intention of the crew."

It is not KLM policy to reserve lavatories for crew, he added."

Oppssy... Someone needs to attend diversity and inclusion class soon.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:33 pm

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973[/quote]


Forgive me if I am oblivious to the facts of what happened, but if the paper notice was written in Korean, is it not the case that it must have been written by a Korean? I wonder what he or she was told to do? Could it not be just a simple matter of the person not stopping to think and writing in his or her language only? I certainly might do that in English. If the notice had been written in English only, then could it be asserted that it discriminated against English speakers? Or against Dutch speakers? Or against Korean speakers? How ridiculous this all is. I cannot think that the Korean person who wrote this intended to discriminate against his or her own countrypeople. Or am I way off base here?
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:40 pm

ME720 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
How the hell English and Dutch speaking passengers would be able to tell that that particular lavatory would be used for crew only?
I doubt all the passengers in that plane knows how to read in korean right?

Also, the FA caught in lies multiple times. No photos and the lavatory was unlocked, they only locked it after the problems arise.

Easy analysis.


That s the whole point. It was clear that the crew was willing to share the lavatory with non Koreans.
The sign was placed to keep Koreans out of that lavatory. Had it been in English, there would have
Been no issue. Worse case scenario, a serious racist
Incident, best case utter stupidity. In either case KLM must address this issue internally. They have already apologised publicly. Now they must make sure that it doesn’t happen again.


I disagree about the intent. A Korean wrote that notice. Are you seriously telling me that any Korean would be told in a loud Dutch voice, in English, to write the notice only in Korean? Or that any Korean would do it? It is pure chance that this happened this way. People like you who want to see bad intent everywhere are just picking it out of your own imagination!
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:57 pm

abrelosojos wrote:
It is KLM. Have you seen the amount of racism and Dutch in Netherlands right now? Not surprised. And, the very nice "I do not give names". This was an Air France influence.

Saludos,
Alex


I usually value you're comments but here you are way off. As a Dutchman actually somewhat offended by this.
Flying blue only if possible
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:59 pm

spinotter wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973[/quote][/quote]

Forgive me if I am oblivious to the facts of what happened, but if the paper notice was written in Korean, is it not the case that it must have been written by a Korean? I wonder what he or she was told to do? Could it not be just a simple matter of the person not stopping to think and writing in his or her language only? I certainly might do that in English. If the notice had been written in English only, then could it be asserted that it discriminated against English speakers? Or against Dutch speakers? Or against Korean speakers? How ridiculous this all is. I cannot think that the Korean person who wrote this intended to discriminate against his or her own countrypeople. Or am I way off base here?[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Generally speaking, basically only people from Korea can read the Korean
(same for any other language including Dutch; Japanese; Chinese etc.)
Writing in Korean only clearly means that the target is those Korean passengers.
If it was written in English, it means that the message is for all passengers.

When the incident raised to a racial discrimination argument, a tiny mistake can lead to a disaster.
Same as the United oversold case a few years ago,
UA not necessary decided to deny boarding of the Vietnamese Doctor because he is an Asian,
but as the racial discrimination argument emerged, UA was being placed into a very disadvantaged position.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure several airlines have this policy now.


But this is not a special evacuation flight, so you are comparing apple to orange.


The crew is accorded special privileges in every aspect of airline ops. No paid customer is going to say I am more important than the crew, because of their own safety at stake.

Bottom line, someone shouldn't have picked up a crumpled paper from the dust bin and copy from Google Translate.


KLM officially confirmed no rule allowing the crew to set up a "crew only toilet"
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:12 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
According to the passenger who brought this situation to light, she took a picture of the sign, and then one of the flight attendants came to her seat and told her that taking photos inside the plane is banned, and told her to delete the photo.

The passenger responded by asking to see the policy stating that photos can’t be taken, and apparently that proved that the only photography that is prohibited is of crew members and other passengers without their consent.


Does one really need consent to take pictures of people for non-commercial use in the Netherlands? Is that a contract of carriage issue if not in the law? Either way, it's ridiculous - again, there can't be an expectation of privacy in a public place. It's not a hospital room, nor a clothing store's fitting room.


Onboard a flight from South-Korea to Holland, you're not in the Netherlands. You're not in a public place either. You're in a privately owned aircraft. You abide by the rules of the carrier.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:26 pm

hongkongflyer wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973[/quote][/quote]

Forgive me if I am oblivious to the facts of what happened, but if the paper notice was written in Korean, is it not the case that it must have been written by a Korean? I wonder what he or she was told to do? Could it not be just a simple matter of the person not stopping to think and writing in his or her language only? I certainly might do that in English. If the notice had been written in English only, then could it be asserted that it discriminated against English speakers? Or against Dutch speakers? Or against Korean speakers? How ridiculous this all is. I cannot think that the Korean person who wrote this intended to discriminate against his or her own countrypeople. Or am I way off base here?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Generally speaking, basically only people from Korea can read the Korean
(same for any other language including Dutch; Japanese; Chinese etc.)
Writing in Korean only clearly means that the target is those Korean passengers.
If it was written in English, it means that the message is for all passengers.

When the incident raised to a racial discrimination argument, a tiny mistake can lead to a disaster.
Same as the United oversold case a few years ago,
UA not necessary decided to deny boarding of the Vietnamese Doctor because he is an Asian,
but as the racial discrimination argument emerged, UA was being placed into a very disadvantaged position.[/quote]


I repeat: The Korean KLM employee who wrote this was asked to make the restroom into a crew-only restroom. What language should he/she employ to ensure that this happens? In his/her mind? You elevate that minute happening to a KLM-wide prejudice? Then you mean that you have an object well beyond what the facts will allow you - exciting the masses.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:50 pm

hongkongflyer wrote:
...
KLM officially confirmed no rule allowing the crew to set up a "crew only toilet"


Sure, now market economics at play, crew safety is thrown out of the window by bean counters.

777 has 15+ lavs. There are several ways to reserve one lav with or without a written policy.

If I recall crew on some routes lock a bank of toilets during the early duration of the flight, so not all toilets are a complete mess by the end of the flight.
There are airlines that dump used blankets and trash bags in the toilets and lock it for landing. It helps them to prepare the cabin for landing quickly.

Obviously reserving lavs for premium classes is an accepted practice.

I would fully support a reserved toilet for crew safety when there is a WHO declared public health emergency of international concern.

Just do it properly.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:38 pm

spinotter wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973[/quote][/quote]

Forgive me if I am oblivious to the facts of what happened, but if the paper notice was written in Korean, is it not the case that it must have been written by a Korean? I wonder what he or she was told to do? Could it not be just a simple matter of the person not stopping to think and writing in his or her language only? I certainly might do that in English. If the notice had been written in English only, then could it be asserted that it discriminated against English speakers? Or against Dutch speakers? Or against Korean speakers? How ridiculous this all is. I cannot think that the Korean person who wrote this intended to discriminate against his or her own countrypeople. Or am I way off base here?[/quote][/quote][/quote]


Did you have any proof that backed up the claim of how a korean FA/Passengers wrote those piece of paper?

Also, I don't think they are that stupid, whoever wrote that note KNOWS that not everybody speaks korean. English, maybe, because it's an universal languages.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:15 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
[quote="hoons90]
I appreciate that, but KLM is an international airline with international customers and their service philosophy should reflect that if they want to maintain goodwill.
[/quote]

Please don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t trying to defend what they did. Personally I think it could have been managed 110 times better.

I was just making the point, generally, that Dutch people tend to be very upfront and honest, without thinking about the cultural contexts with what they may say.


Rgds,
C1973[/quote][/quote]

Forgive me if I am oblivious to the facts of what happened, but if the paper notice was written in Korean, is it not the case that it must have been written by a Korean? I wonder what he or she was told to do? Could it not be just a simple matter of the person not stopping to think and writing in his or her language only? I certainly might do that in English. If the notice had been written in English only, then could it be asserted that it discriminated against English speakers? Or against Dutch speakers? Or against Korean speakers? How ridiculous this all is. I cannot think that the Korean person who wrote this intended to discriminate against his or her own countrypeople. Or am I way off base here?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Did you have any proof that backed up the claim of how a korean FA/Passengers wrote those piece of paper?

Also, I don't think they are that stupid, whoever wrote that note KNOWS that not everybody speaks korean. English, maybe, because it's an universal languages.[/quote]


A non-Korean wrote that notice? What sort of brain have you?
 
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PW100
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:17 pm

hongkongflyer wrote:
Generally speaking, basically only people from Korea can read the Korean
(same for any other language including Dutch; Japanese; Chinese etc.)
Writing in Korean only clearly means that the target is those Korean passengers.
If it was written in English, it means that the message is for all passengers.

When the incident raised to a racial discrimination argument, a tiny mistake can lead to a disaster.
Same as the United oversold case a few years ago,
UA not necessary decided to deny boarding of the Vietnamese Doctor because he is an Asian,
but as the racial discrimination argument emerged, UA was being placed into a very disadvantaged position.


You did not answer the question.

The question was regarding the writing, and the writers intent . . .
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atcsundevil
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:39 pm

Please keep posts on topic or the thread will be locked.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Galwayman
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:38 pm

Impossible for this not to be discrimination followed by heavy handed tactics . Look forward to hearing the crew and their seniors on the flight have been fired .
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:48 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
...
KLM officially confirmed no rule allowing the crew to set up a "crew only toilet"


Sure, now market economics at play, crew safety is thrown out of the window by bean counters.

777 has 15+ lavs. There are several ways to reserve one lav with or without a written policy.

If I recall crew on some routes lock a bank of toilets during the early duration of the flight, so not all toilets are a complete mess by the end of the flight.
There are airlines that dump used blankets and trash bags in the toilets and lock it for landing. It helps them to prepare the cabin for landing quickly.

Obviously reserving lavs for premium classes is an accepted practice.

I would fully support a reserved toilet for crew safety when there is a WHO declared public health emergency of international concern.

Just do it properly.


You get the point: do it properly.
If it is not a company policy, do it privately by locking the toilet before boarding and use a proper way to notice your fellow passengers I.e. not a Korean only notice.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:08 pm

spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:


A non-Korean wrote that notice? What sort of brain have you?


- Many Flight attendants are bilingual, trilingual and so on.
- They are operating routes to South Korea. With many passengers who are Korean.
- There would be really high chance that at least 1 Dutch FA in the group operating the flights to South Korea would be able to speak and write in Korean.
- And yes, the Dutch would be able to learn and converse in Korean. I know it's a surprise that non-Koreans could speak Korean. But some people are bilingual, especially when their work require them to be. Just like how many non-english speakers who are able to speak english on many airlines.

So sir, what sort of drugs are you on right now?
 
NLDru
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:06 am

No one died on this flight, the plane did not crash or the plane had a breakdown. The guilty one is the FA and this was a personal mistake. But due to a misunderstanding on a small piece of paper, the South Koreans all feel discriminated.

The only population groups in the world that are often discriminated against are the Africans, Arabs and Latinos. These groups sadly experience both physical and mental violence.

And because of a small note on a piece of paper, the entire Korean population feels discriminated about it.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:54 pm

NLDru wrote:
No one died on this flight, the plane did not crash or the plane had a breakdown. The guilty one is the FA and this was a personal mistake. But due to a misunderstanding on a small piece of paper, the South Koreans all feel discriminated.

The only population groups in the world that are often discriminated against are the Africans, Arabs and Latinos. These groups sadly experience both physical and mental violence.

And because of a small note on a piece of paper, the entire Korean population feels discriminated about it.


Easy formula for everybody. If you want to sell products to the people. Discriminating them wouldn't be a good idea.

Also, it would be quite ignorant to exclude native Americans, Native Maori, Native Australians, South Asian and Southeast Asian into the category.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:48 pm

spinotter wrote:
A non-Korean wrote that notice?


Anybody can do it.
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:58 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:


A non-Korean wrote that notice? What sort of brain have you?


- Many Flight attendants are bilingual, trilingual and so on.
- They are operating routes to South Korea. With many passengers who are Korean.
- There would be really high chance that at least 1 Dutch FA in the group operating the flights to South Korea would be able to speak and write in Korean.
- And yes, the Dutch would be able to learn and converse in Korean. I know it's a surprise that non-Koreans could speak Korean. But some people are bilingual, especially when their work require them to be. Just like how many non-english speakers who are able to speak english on many airlines.

So sir, what sort of drugs are you on right now?


Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:02 am

NLDru wrote:
No one died on this flight, the plane did not crash or the plane had a breakdown. The guilty one is the FA and this was a personal mistake. But due to a misunderstanding on a small piece of paper, the South Koreans all feel discriminated.

The only population groups in the world that are often discriminated against are the Africans, Arabs and Latinos. These groups sadly experience both physical and mental violence.

And because of a small note on a piece of paper, the entire Korean population feels discriminated about it.


In English we always say discriminated against instead of just discriminated, which so far is not a transitive verb, in my English at least. Every population group except white Anglo-Saxons, perhaps, has been and is discriminated against. No exceptions except rich Mr. Smith in Middlemarch.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:07 am

spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

A non-Korean wrote that notice? What sort of brain have you?


- Many Flight attendants are bilingual, trilingual and so on.
- They are operating routes to South Korea. With many passengers who are Korean.
- There would be really high chance that at least 1 Dutch FA in the group operating the flights to South Korea would be able to speak and write in Korean.
- And yes, the Dutch would be able to learn and converse in Korean. I know it's a surprise that non-Koreans could speak Korean. But some people are bilingual, especially when their work require them to be. Just like how many non-english speakers who are able to speak english on many airlines.

So sir, what sort of drugs are you on right now?


Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.


Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?
 
speedbird52
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:17 am

SeoulIncheon wrote:
ME720 wrote:
mileduets wrote:
Do you want to imply that KLM, unlike other airlines, has an inherent problem of systematic racial discrimination? That's quite an accusation that you base on this simple incident.


It is not a simple incident. It is a serious incident.
This one got out, and was made public by the person involved. maybe many more Similar incidents never made it to the social media.


Now we have another report of similar incident from NRT-AMS flight. Two very similar incidents from same airline in a very short time frame, it looks like KLM probably has systematic racial discrimination - and people of colour are not welcome on KLM. Well good reason to fly Emirates Qatar Etihad or maybe other European airlines that are willing to accept people of colour!

I have heard a lot of anecdotal stories about the Netherlands being particularly racist. There is also this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F4rm3OUxWc
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:24 am

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

- Many Flight attendants are bilingual, trilingual and so on.
- They are operating routes to South Korea. With many passengers who are Korean.
- There would be really high chance that at least 1 Dutch FA in the group operating the flights to South Korea would be able to speak and write in Korean.
- And yes, the Dutch would be able to learn and converse in Korean. I know it's a surprise that non-Koreans could speak Korean. But some people are bilingual, especially when their work require them to be. Just like how many non-english speakers who are able to speak english on many airlines.

So sir, what sort of drugs are you on right now?


Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.


Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?

The route is operated with two local crew, Korean.
Flying blue only if possible
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:28 am

Flanker7 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.


Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?

The route is operated with two local crew, Korean.


Would love to see the stats for that.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:36 am

ewt340 wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?

The route is operated with two local crew, Korean.


Would love to see the stats for that.


Well dear ewt340, my dear wife goes to Korea 4 to 5 times a year on KLM. Oh she's a crewmember.
Flying blue only if possible
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:54 am

Flanker7 wrote:
my dear wife goes to Korea 4 to 5 times a year on KLM. Oh she's a crewmember.


So how is that supposed to prove there is no institutional discremination.
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Eikie
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:30 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
my dear wife goes to Korea 4 to 5 times a year on KLM. Oh she's a crewmember.


So how is that supposed to prove there is no institutional discremination.

He's not saying that, he just gave a reason why he (rightly) states there were local cabin crew on Korea flights.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:40 am

Eikie wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
my dear wife goes to Korea 4 to 5 times a year on KLM. Oh she's a crewmember.


So how is that supposed to prove there is no institutional discremination.

He's not saying that, he just gave a reason why he (rightly) states there were local cabin crew on Korea flights.


Like I said twice up thread any five year old could trace the letters from Google Translate.

Having two locals on board or claiming a Korean did it, doesn't exonerate KLM from alleged wrongdoing.

All I want to say to KLM, don't be AF, if all SkyTeam members are like this Delta has to start a new alliance.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
my dear wife goes to Korea 4 to 5 times a year on KLM. Oh she's a crewmember.


So how is that supposed to prove there is no institutional discremination.

dtw2hyd what did I prove? Only that there are two local crew on these flights nothing more. Do I condone what happened, no I do not. Is action being taken by the airline yes.
Flying blue only if possible
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:49 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

- Many Flight attendants are bilingual, trilingual and so on.
- They are operating routes to South Korea. With many passengers who are Korean.
- There would be really high chance that at least 1 Dutch FA in the group operating the flights to South Korea would be able to speak and write in Korean.
- And yes, the Dutch would be able to learn and converse in Korean. I know it's a surprise that non-Koreans could speak Korean. But some people are bilingual, especially when their work require them to be. Just like how many non-english speakers who are able to speak english on many airlines.

So sir, what sort of drugs are you on right now?


Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.


Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?


I myself speak and read Chinese. Mandarin is an old-time name for the Chinese language as spoken in Beijing. Who users that name any more? Yes, I do doubt whether there is even one Dutch flight attendant working for KLM who is so fluent in Korean. Just consider the probabilities.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:28 pm

spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Yes, I give all props to the versatility of Dutch students in any foreign language, but we must admit that the notice was probably written by a Korean person, protest as you might. Because your Bad Hoevedorp girls and guys can utter a few required phrases in Korean does not mean that they can even write in that language.


Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?


I myself speak and read Chinese. Mandarin is an old-time name for the Chinese language as spoken in Beijing. Who users that name any more? Yes, I do doubt whether there is even one Dutch flight attendant working for KLM who is so fluent in Korean. Just consider the probabilities.


Everybody said Mandarin. As it is the official language of China. Because other major Chinese language like Cantonese are extremely different from Mandarin.
Unless they don't have much knowledge about Chinese language. Then they just gonna say chinese. Even though Mandarin and Cantonese speaking people can't understand each other at all.

Do you think if there is Korean FA on that flight, why wouldn't KLM stated such obvious reasoning when the this blow up in the media?
Surely if they said, "This Korean FA wrote this message on the paper and forgot to write the message in English and Korean". Then the problem would be solved and they wouldn't have to apologize.
And then we got the the crazy FA who go off at the passengers when they got caught with lies about the photo regulation and get offended when they called out.

Instead what happen? they do big press and apologize to the Korean public. Surely they found enough wrongdoing in their investigations to do such actions.
The probability of Korean FA doing it is close to none looking at the situation and what happen after it.

Why wouldn't the passengers and KLM tell the public explicitly that the FA who wrote it is Korean?
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:54 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Huh? What kind of logic is that? You just assume that the whole company doesn't have 1 dutch FA who could write or speak in Korean? You realized how crazy that sounds? Especially if they operated routes to South Korea on daily basis.

What next? The dutch can't speak Japanese or Mandarin as well?


I myself speak and read Chinese. Mandarin is an old-time name for the Chinese language as spoken in Beijing. Who users that name any more? Yes, I do doubt whether there is even one Dutch flight attendant working for KLM who is so fluent in Korean. Just consider the probabilities.


Everybody said Mandarin. As it is the official language of China. Because other major Chinese language like Cantonese are extremely different from Mandarin.
Unless they don't have much knowledge about Chinese language. Then they just gonna say chinese. Even though Mandarin and Cantonese speaking people can't understand each other at all.

Do you think if there is Korean FA on that flight, why wouldn't KLM stated such obvious reasoning when the this blow up in the media?
Surely if they said, "This Korean FA wrote this message on the paper and forgot to write the message in English and Korean". Then the problem would be solved and they wouldn't have to apologize.
And then we got the the crazy FA who go off at the passengers when they got caught with lies about the photo regulation and get offended when they called out.

Instead what happen? they do big press and apologize to the Korean public. Surely they found enough wrongdoing in their investigations to do such actions.
The probability of Korean FA doing it is close to none looking at the situation and what happen after it.

Why wouldn't the passengers and KLM tell the public explicitly that the FA who wrote it is Korean?


KLM would like to bury this controversy as deeply as possible, and have it go away. What do you mean, everyone said Mandarin? Mandarin is not a Chinese word, and no Chinese person ever imagined that he or she was speaking a language called "Mandarin." Mandarin is a European word which European speakers use to describe the mutually intelligible dialects of Chinese mostly in northern China. A mardarin is a respected member of the imperial government of dynastic China. No one today calls the Chinese language Mandarin unless they are very ignorant.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:51 am

spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

I myself speak and read Chinese. Mandarin is an old-time name for the Chinese language as spoken in Beijing. Who users that name any more? Yes, I do doubt whether there is even one Dutch flight attendant working for KLM who is so fluent in Korean. Just consider the probabilities.


Everybody said Mandarin. As it is the official language of China. Because other major Chinese language like Cantonese are extremely different from Mandarin.
Unless they don't have much knowledge about Chinese language. Then they just gonna say chinese. Even though Mandarin and Cantonese speaking people can't understand each other at all.

Do you think if there is Korean FA on that flight, why wouldn't KLM stated such obvious reasoning when the this blow up in the media?
Surely if they said, "This Korean FA wrote this message on the paper and forgot to write the message in English and Korean". Then the problem would be solved and they wouldn't have to apologize.
And then we got the the crazy FA who go off at the passengers when they got caught with lies about the photo regulation and get offended when they called out.

Instead what happen? they do big press and apologize to the Korean public. Surely they found enough wrongdoing in their investigations to do such actions.
The probability of Korean FA doing it is close to none looking at the situation and what happen after it.

Why wouldn't the passengers and KLM tell the public explicitly that the FA who wrote it is Korean?


KLM would like to bury this controversy as deeply as possible, and have it go away. What do you mean, everyone said Mandarin? Mandarin is not a Chinese word, and no Chinese person ever imagined that he or she was speaking a language called "Mandarin." Mandarin is a European word which European speakers use to describe the mutually intelligible dialects of Chinese mostly in northern China. A mardarin is a respected member of the imperial government of dynastic China. No one today calls the Chinese language Mandarin unless they are very ignorant.


You do realize we are currently speaking English right? A European Language. We called that Mandarin. We didn't say chinese because it could be any dialects. And saying chinese doesn't specified which dialects we are talking about. Either way, I don't understand how you try to make deal out of topics that doesn't correlate to the main post. It's like you're trying to change the topics and go around and around about useless stuff.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:29 pm

ewt340 wrote:
... It's like you're trying to change the topics and go around and around about useless stuff.


Standard technique.

Had either of the two now omnipresent Korean crew explained to the passenger, they would have avoided the language and cultural barriers, this wouldn't even make the news.

Now trying to serve the world "Korean wrote it", hence no issues BLT sandwich.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM discrimination controversy in Korea

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:59 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Everybody said Mandarin. As it is the official language of China. Because other major Chinese language like Cantonese are extremely different from Mandarin.
Unless they don't have much knowledge about Chinese language. Then they just gonna say chinese. Even though Mandarin and Cantonese speaking people can't understand each other at all.

Do you think if there is Korean FA on that flight, why wouldn't KLM stated such obvious reasoning when the this blow up in the media?
Surely if they said, "This Korean FA wrote this message on the paper and forgot to write the message in English and Korean". Then the problem would be solved and they wouldn't have to apologize.
And then we got the the crazy FA who go off at the passengers when they got caught with lies about the photo regulation and get offended when they called out.

Instead what happen? they do big press and apologize to the Korean public. Surely they found enough wrongdoing in their investigations to do such actions.
The probability of Korean FA doing it is close to none looking at the situation and what happen after it.

Why wouldn't the passengers and KLM tell the public explicitly that the FA who wrote it is Korean?


Someone who uses the term Mandarin is obviously in a different mentality than a person wanting equality between all races and cultures.

KLM would like to bury this controversy as deeply as possible, and have it go away. What do you mean, everyone said Mandarin? Mandarin is not a Chinese word, and no Chinese person ever imagined that he or she was speaking a language called "Mandarin." Mandarin is a European word which European speakers use to describe the mutually intelligible dialects of Chinese mostly in northern China. A mardarin is a respected member of the imperial government of dynastic China. No one today calls the Chinese language Mandarin unless they are very ignorant.


You do realize we are currently speaking English right? A European Language. We called that Mandarin. We didn't say chinese because it could be any dialects. And saying chinese doesn't specified which dialects we are talking about. Either way, I don't understand how you try to make deal out of topics that doesn't correlate to the main post. It's like you're trying to change the topics and go around and around about useless stuff.

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