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32andBelow
Posts: 5006
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:44 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
I wonder what routes will be considered out of PDX and ANC once this is fires up? Could we see JL in PDX? More ANC-Lower 48 nonstops? Seasonal ANC-Europe/Japan?

Why AA will already get the ANC feed from AS.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2937
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:46 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
I wonder what routes will be considered out of PDX and ANC once this is fires up? Could we see JL in PDX? More ANC-Lower 48 nonstops? Seasonal ANC-Europe/Japan?


JL’s LCC ZIPAIR is already rumored to launch 3x weekly NRT-PDX.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Personally I would much rather have seen a situation in which Delta upheld it integrity and not attempted to put the screws to Alaska with the whole SEA hub thing.

Seattle airport INFRASTRUCTURE is decades behind the times and cannot adequately handle the capacity of American as well as Delta. A much better arrangement would have been Delta to have allowed Alaska to take care of Domestic routes and continued to code-share with American.

Now the whole SEA International market is going nuclear and Seatac Airport CANNOT handle it even with the existing runways and NEW International gates!

Personally I kind of expected Alaska OneWorld membership, but honestly I see this as not a win for consumer airport convenience for the Seattle Region. Sleepless in Seattle was not due to love but AIRPLANE NOISE.

Any new airports for the locals being built in the region besides Paine Field? If you have never spent time in the region. PLANES make the Seattle region INCREDIBLY NOISY.

Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of vehicles on the road, the bustling operations at the Port of Seattle, Port of Tacoma and Port of Everett, rail and nearly 4.5 million people in the region make absolutely zero noise.


Agree, if you want NOISE just visit the Seattle area. The funny thing is the people who live there, think the loudness of it all is kind of NORMAL.

It’s NOT!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
RvA
Posts: 404
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:47 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
SEA-BLR?! AA's management is worse than I thought.

Boof02671 wrote:
Tristar787 wrote:
Interesting development. I can’t imagine DL being thrilled about this. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them find a slot at LHR to launch RDU-LHR as a response. But congrats to AS/AA! SEA is definitely busting at the seams at the moment waiting for the expansion to wrap up.

AA’s RDU-LHR Flight has huge corporate contracts especially from GSK which buys seats on every flight.


GSK's RDU area operation is a fraction of what it used to be 10 years ago. No doubt they still benefit from this flight, but they are certainly not why it's flown. FWIW every single flight flown (US carriers anyway) has contracts even if they aren't market specific (i.e. USPS contracts, hasset, other cargo companies, etc).


Also DL and UA will have this route in their contract with GSK too. GSK is too big to not have contracts with all major airlines.
BA however is probably in a good place to take over as it’s same alliance and JV but they won’t have planes and crew that have to do a W pattern like AA does which is inefficient.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:48 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
I wonder what routes will be considered out of PDX and ANC once this is fires up? Could we see JL in PDX? More ANC-Lower 48 nonstops? Seasonal ANC-Europe/Japan?


PDX/ANC aren't going to be any sort of big winner here. There was nothing stopping JL from adding PDX as is and the codeshare between JL and AS isn't changing (they already have one). ANC growth to the Lower 48 is hapenning on its own accord, again nothing that this partnership will change.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4794
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:50 pm

I think this is the best scenario for both AA and AS. They actually need each other and compliment each other nicely. Really helps alaska flyers alot of people will be happy to have one world

Not good news for Delta and more for skyteam I think. One world will become the premier alliance for frequent travlelers. This may shift some focus more back on LAX for international? The whole thing about SEA was delta said their was a real opportunity , and even before this its been a real resource hog and slow building hub. I expect them to keep sea but this is very big news for Delta.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:50 pm

cschleic wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I’ll be curious to see if this changes how one books international flights—will I be able to book these through AS directly or will it stay the same and I book through AA and give my AS number?

Somewhat unrelated, I was initially irritated when they announced they were going to be cooperating less, but consoled myself with the idea that my South American flying would now be on the more comfortable Delta—now I’m going to miss the more comfortable Delta but it helps to have my miles on AS.


Good points and the kind of thing I've wrestled with as a regular AS flyer. One other question...will the AS mileage plan eventually change to more $ based like other carriers?

Regarding the BLR discussion...many others fly to the other large Indian cities which can require three flights to get to BLR. This will provide two-flight access from a lot of U.S. tech cities to BLR, and non-stop from all the tech companies in the Puget Sound area.

I don't think AS will change FFP accrual and valuations anytime soon as it is a big competitive advantage over DL for many people. At most, they might change how many miles you need to become MVP, MVP Gold and MVP Gold 75k. Right now, you need 20,000 miles on AS for MVP, 40,000 for Gold and 75,000 for 75k. All miles are for exclusive to AS only. 90,000 miles on Alaska and partners for 75k, which is a significant difference than everyone else.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
alasizon
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:51 pm

RvA wrote:
do a W pattern like AA does which is inefficient.


There is nothing about a W pattern that is inefficient; in fact it actually allows better timings for many of the routes ex-LHR by allowing equipment to cross-over and match with the departure time that is best for that market.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3608
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm

The battle for Seattle is officially on as DL desires a large long haul hub from there. I’m more surprised that AS is becoming a full member.
 
mbird139
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 11:53 am

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Will this finally trigger the much anticipated end of PHX as a hub as AA builds up SEA instead?

No
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
FSDan wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?


Gate space, for one thing. It would be very difficult at this point for AA to acquire a meaningful number of gates at SEA for significant domestic expansion of their own. When DL started their buildup, there were gates available for the taking.

TWA902fly wrote:
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?


No, their plan is not to displace DL out of SEA (certainly not with their own metal, anyway - if further strengthening AS's position in SEA eventually led DL to pull back, I'm sure they would still count that as a win).

BLR seems like a targeted and opportunistic add (see further comments below), and LHR is already a place of strength for AA/BA. It sounds like we can expect to see one or two more adds along these lines (perhaps SIN eventually?), but don't expect AA to try to match DL in serving all the major Asian markets from SEA.

TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have to reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?


This is actually a very clever add by AA because DL doesn't have the right aircraft to retaliate on the route (77L would be too much capacity), and UA might not be able to launch SFO-BLR without severe weight restrictions (LAX-SIN reportedly failed for that reason, and SFO-BLR isn't much shorter). Maybe if the Bay Area-BLR fares are high enough, UA could still make SFO-BLR work even with weight restrictions, but I don't think that would necessarily take too much away from AA's potential on SEA-BLR.


DL 77L seats 288 people, AA 789 seats 285 people. I assume the 777 has larger cargo capacity however.

'902


Fair point - the capacity of a DL 77L and an AA 789 isn't so different in the end (I knew AA's 789s were more dense than UA's but I didn't realize they were so close to DL 777s)! Nonetheless, the difference in fuel efficiency would surely kill DL's chances of succeeding on this route with that aircraft, not to mention that DL only has 10 of them and they are pretty well accounted for at this point.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Detroit313
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Wow! Just wow!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 868
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:53 pm

One thing PEOPLE are NOT asking is if this new agreements forces A L A S K A to go into a

“fare based” frequent fly plan rather than a
“actual mileage based,” frequent flyer plan.

Be careful what you wish for.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
hondah35
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:55 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:55 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Will this finally trigger the much anticipated end of PHX as a hub as AA builds up SEA instead?



Airliner's Law:

As the number of responses to a forum post increases, the probability of someone mentioning the dehubbing of Phoenix approaches 1.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1759
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:55 pm

YYZORD wrote:
How will SEA-BLR on AA affect the YVR-DEL route on AC? I'm sure many from SEA connects on that route.


I'm guessing zero impact. AC's flight primarily serves the large Punjabi community in Vancouver. They have zero interest in BLR. AA is clearly targeting BLR bound business travelers from the West Coast
 
WkndWanderer
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:56 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
enilria wrote:
The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.


I think it makes AA look weak as it is a reaction to DL stealing LATAM. I can't see AS dropping all of their current agreements with others in SEA solely for AA, so this might not change much for AS, and doesn't show them to be either weak or strong.

'902


Having a significant domestic mileage earning and redemption partner is something AS had lost after the previous DL and AA relationships had been reduced. Getting a meaningful domestic mileage partner back along with the return or reciprocal elite status on AA is a pretty important change for AS FF's.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:59 pm

cschleic wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?
4) What benefit does all of this have for AS as opposed to their current model of code sharing with anyone that flies to SEA? Is AA going to be okay with their buddy AS feeding every single one of their competitors at SEA (except for DL/AF)?
5) How is the DOJ/DOT going to respond - there were already some pretty heavy restrictions on their partnership - won't getting even closer bring even more scrutiny?
6) On the front of it, it really seems that AA is just trying to get back at DL for stealing LATAM... but what's really going to change? Basically one extra route? They're not stealing AS from DL... I expect Delta to push back hard.

I'd love to hear all of your thoughts on the above. This is an interesting development no matter what way you look at it.

'902


Here are some thoughts...

1) AS will be a member of Oneworld. That makes them partners whether they like it or not.
2) AA doesn't need to build up frequencies at SEA, it's already there in the form of AS, the soon-to-be alliance partner that will provide connectivity.
3) A possibility since DL does have its own feed to SEA. Could there be more than one BLR non-stop from the U.S.? Maybe, further fragmentation of international routes just like we're seeing on so many others, partly thanks to the 787 and A350, is probably the bigger question.
4) Some of AS's current partners are Oneworld so that might not change. As for the others, time will tell. It's not like AA doesn't know the landscape.
5) Has been discussed in other posts. Also, becoming an alliance member probably changes things.
6) Also discussed in other posts. How does DL gaining South America access relate to AS in the PNW and getting Oneworld benefits? AS and AA see this as a good business decision for themselves.


You both bring up some good points though, in some ways AS joining Oneworld could make things easier for DL. Sure HKG, HND, and LHR become harder, but AC, ANA, Asiana, Eva Air, Lufthansa, Singapore, will likely be loosing a partner. Not that they couldn't make their routes work without AS, it certainly would be easier with AS.

Really out of left field would be if due to Boeings woes and dwindling 787 backlog, Delta picks up 20 or so and gets them quick, and starts SEA-BLR,BOM,etc.
Last edited by mpdpilot on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
avi8
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:59 pm

flyfresno wrote:
This is going to make not only SkyTeam but also Star take notice in quite a few mid-sized and smaller West Cost and Mountain cities, where OneWorld will rocket to the top in total flights and destinations.



True, although with UA having massive hubs at DEN, SFO plus the small smoke/hub, LAX, Star Alliance is well covered .
avi8
 
sabby
Posts: 452
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?

Hence why they want AS so they can get the feed without actually adding a lot of AA metal.
TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?

I don't know if DL has the aircraft to compete on SEA-BLR. It's 500nm longer than LAX-SYD and BLR is at 3,000 ft altitude and most of the year is hot and humid. This would likely have to be a 77L route. Does DL have 2 spare 77L's? And is that efficient enough to compete against the 789?
As for whether there is room for more airlines, I believe there is. Currently you have at least 12 daily flights into BLR offering connections to the U.S. EK alone has 3x 77W and a big chunk of those passengers are U.S. bound.


A correction, temp at BLR year around stays between 18-22 degrees Celcius (~70 degrees F) in the night till early morning when the int'l flights usually operate. And BLR is bone dry most of the year although not sure if that impacts the aircraft performance as such. A359 is doing similar length route between MNL-JFK and that one has to encounter the pacific winds, so DL's A359 should be able to make it unless their A359s specifically has some limitations like overhead crew rest etc. However, corporate contracts are the determining factors here and AS+AA combination will likely hold the better cards here. I'd venture a guess that this flight will also draw some OW travelers from the bay area. DL will be happy to funnel the US-BLR traffic via the daily AF connection or the 4 weekly KL connections for ST members.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:00 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
One thing PEOPLE are NOT asking is if this new agreements forces A L A S K A to go into a

“fare based” frequent fly plan rather than a
“actual mileage based,” frequent flyer plan.

Be careful what you wish for.


Actually people are asking about the FF program... and no, this doesn't force AS to do anything. Adding SEA-BLR doesn't suddenly change the accrual rate for their entire program since they already have other long hauls on other partners.

Sancho99504 wrote:
cschleic wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I’ll be curious to see if this changes how one books international flights—will I be able to book these through AS directly or will it stay the same and I book through AA and give my AS number?

Somewhat unrelated, I was initially irritated when they announced they were going to be cooperating less, but consoled myself with the idea that my South American flying would now be on the more comfortable Delta—now I’m going to miss the more comfortable Delta but it helps to have my miles on AS.


Good points and the kind of thing I've wrestled with as a regular AS flyer. One other question...will the AS mileage plan eventually change to more $ based like other carriers?

Regarding the BLR discussion...many others fly to the other large Indian cities which can require three flights to get to BLR. This will provide two-flight access from a lot of U.S. tech cities to BLR, and non-stop from all the tech companies in the Puget Sound area.

I don't think AS will change FFP accrual and valuations anytime soon as it is a big competitive advantage over DL for many people. At most, they might change how many miles you need to become MVP, MVP Gold and MVP Gold 75k. Right now, you need 20,000 miles on AS for MVP, 40,000 for Gold and 75,000 for 75k. All miles are for exclusive to AS only. 90,000 miles on Alaska and partners for 75k, which is a significant difference than everyone else.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
gregn21
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:05 pm

I wonder where this leaves LAX as their "major transpacific gateway" or whatever they like to call it. This also creates an interesting real estate situation at LAX. With AA set to rebuild T4 and T5 at LAX and AS next door in T6, the expanded partnership could give them the ability to create a massive and fully integrated combined operation with TBIT South gates included as well. Could be even more lethal to DL at LAX if AA is able to focus more on longhaul flying with AS picking up some slack domestically.
Last edited by gregn21 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
RvA
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:06 pm

alasizon wrote:
RvA wrote:
do a W pattern like AA does which is inefficient.


There is nothing about a W pattern that is inefficient; in fact it actually allows better timings for many of the routes ex-LHR by allowing equipment to cross-over and match with the departure time that is best for that market.


With AA not having 777 crew and pilots at either LHR nor RDU it is inefficient compared to normal routings and can lead to potential problems should there be maintenance issues/delays etc. Having crew timing out at a hub is more likely able to be resolved better than it happening away from home.
BA serving RDU straight from their main base is more efficient.
W patters and can work, you won’t hear me say they can’t but it can be more efficient and in this case a JV partner serving it from their home may well happen one day here I imagine. Certainly wouldn’t rule that out.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10177
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:09 pm

sabby wrote:
airbazar wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?

Hence why they want AS so they can get the feed without actually adding a lot of AA metal.
TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?

I don't know if DL has the aircraft to compete on SEA-BLR. It's 500nm longer than LAX-SYD and BLR is at 3,000 ft altitude and most of the year is hot and humid. This would likely have to be a 77L route. Does DL have 2 spare 77L's? And is that efficient enough to compete against the 789?
As for whether there is room for more airlines, I believe there is. Currently you have at least 12 daily flights into BLR offering connections to the U.S. EK alone has 3x 77W and a big chunk of those passengers are U.S. bound.


A correction, temp at BLR year around stays between 18-22 degrees Celcius (~70 degrees F) in the night till early morning when the int'l flights usually operate. And BLR is bone dry most of the year although not sure if that impacts the aircraft performance as such. A359 is doing similar length route between MNL-JFK and that one has to encounter the pacific winds, so DL's A359 should be able to make it unless their A359s specifically has some limitations like overhead crew rest etc.

I've been to Bangalore a couple of times and I'm a runner and I run every day at Cubbon Park. I can attest that during the evening it's cool and dry but as soon as the sun comes up, between April and September it's pretty hot and humid. Nothing like Chennai but still hot and humid. However you're right that most intl flights depart at night.
And yes, DL's A359's are derated I believe. There's a huge thread on why they are not flying LAX-SYD.

Correction: derated is probably the wrong term. They have lower MTOW.

DL will be happy to funnel the US-BLR traffic via the daily AF connection or the 4 weekly KL connections for ST members.

They will lose that battle from SEA because:
SEA-BLR 7,019 nm
SEA-CDG-BLR 8,587 nm (+22.3%) + connection time
Last edited by airbazar on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15743
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:09 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
I suppose this will mean the end of AS LAX-BOS.


Not at all.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:11 pm

RvA wrote:
alasizon wrote:
RvA wrote:
do a W pattern like AA does which is inefficient.


There is nothing about a W pattern that is inefficient; in fact it actually allows better timings for many of the routes ex-LHR by allowing equipment to cross-over and match with the departure time that is best for that market.


With AA not having 777 crew and pilots at either LHR nor RDU it is inefficient compared to normal routings and can lead to potential problems should there be maintenance issues/delays etc. Having crew timing out at a hub is more likely able to be resolved better than it happening away from home.
BA serving RDU straight from their main base is more efficient.
W patters and can work, you won’t hear me say they can’t but it can be more efficient and in this case a JV partner serving it from their home may well happen one day here I imagine. Certainly wouldn’t rule that out.


There will have to be ATLEAST a 787 pilot base in SEA. Or a TDY base at a minimum. The rest requirements for ULR flying require it. It’s the same reason UA has A 787 base in IAH for only a SYD flight.
 
gregn21
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:13 pm

I wonder where this leaves LAX as their "major transpacific gateway" or whatever they like to call it. This also creates an interesting real estate situation at LAX. With AA set to rebuild T4 and T5 at LAX and AS next door in T6, the expanded partnership could give them the ability to create a massive and fully integrated combined operation with TBIT South gates included as well. Could be even more lethal to DL at LAX if AA is able to focus more on longhaul flying with AS picking up some slack domestically.
 
dia77
Posts: 696
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 3:49 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:18 pm

I live in Seattle and worked at Amazon for years. I flew SEA-BLR 10 times in 2 years - Amazon's India HQ is in Bangalore. There will definitely be demand from a passenger perspective. The question is whether the yields will be there. Amazon employees fly economy - cheapest options possible. Microsoft, Expedia, T-Mobile and others might have more lenient travel policies that allow them to fly business.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2603
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:19 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
There will have to be ATLEAST a 787 pilot base in SEA. Or a TDY base at a minimum. The rest requirements for ULR flying require it. It’s the same reason UA has A 787 base in IAH for only a SYD flight.


There is no requirement that requires the crews to be based in that city AFAIK; only that they have the minimum rest. Its not as if the crews are going to operate DFW-SEA-BLR in the same day.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
Chugach
Posts: 1337
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:21 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
I wonder what routes will be considered out of PDX and ANC once this is fires up? Could we see JL in PDX? More ANC-Lower 48 nonstops? Seasonal ANC-Europe/Japan?


About the only thing I could see for ANC is AS keeping ANC-ORD and maybe ANC-PHX year-round now.

PDX, maybe JL makes more sense now. We will see.
 
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American 767
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
B6 feels so isolated now.


Yes, but they have grown so big compared to what they were 20 years ago when they started. JetBlue is now a major player in the United States, with American, Delta, Southwest and United. I see JetBlue merging with Frontier, that would increase JetBlue's presence on the West by building a hub in DEN, if that ever happens.

I won't be surprised if the next airline that will merged into AA will be AS, if they (AA) ever buy another airline. I don't see who else AA would take over. Wasn't US a member of One World right before the merger with AA? True they were in Star but they had already left Star to switch to One World before the merger.

Another thing is, now that AS joining One World is official, AY could open a nonstop route from HEL to SEA. This route would get a lot of feed from AS flights in SEA, it's something AY should now consider.
Ben Soriano
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:25 pm

It is kind of odd OneWorld AA doing London as OneWorld BA does London already too.

I guess this nixes OneWorld AS ever doing any of these, but as one can tell by this announcement, NEVER say never in the Seattle Airline market.

For OneWorld AS;

Hawaii flying,
Virgin America merger,
the initial semi favored Delt tie up,
the new AA OneWorld tie up,
the WN LGA slot lease

All came out of the blue. Seattle Hub constantly surprises and keeps the all important business traveler happy!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:26 pm

So this news will keep Delta on its toes! I always thought they were getting a little sleepy there. It seems Delta is shut out of new domestic gates there to augment the new international arrivals opening soon. Any word on new domestic gates? Delta needs to keep the course. Seattle just became that more strategic for them. And keep up the heat in Boston and Miami!! Delta had to have anticipated this move so I think Delta has something in the pipelines.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:26 pm

alasizon wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
There will have to be ATLEAST a 787 pilot base in SEA. Or a TDY base at a minimum. The rest requirements for ULR flying require it. It’s the same reason UA has A 787 base in IAH for only a SYD flight.


There is no requirement that requires the crews to be based in that city AFAIK; only that they have the minimum rest. Its not as if the crews are going to operate DFW-SEA-BLR in the same day.


AA might have a different deal worth the FAA but I’m sure it’s very similar. Any flying that requires a duty day over 18hours requires an FRMS exemption. At United all of these exemptions require 30hours in base rest prior to departure to be acclimated. Also when you get to BLR it requires 50 hours on the ground to get acclimated to the time zone then when you return you are required to have 56 hours of rest before you can be assigned another duty period.

That means DFW-SEA rest 30 hours 5days to get to BLR and back then 56 hours in SEA the SEA - DFW. That’s a 8 day trip minimum plus lots of hotel costs. And all of that is for a line holder. If a crew member called in sick it would almost 3 days to get a reserve there and ready to fly.

Again that is why there is a United 787 base in IAH for a sole SYD flight
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:31 pm

RvA wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
SEA-BLR?! AA's management is worse than I thought.

Boof02671 wrote:
AA’s RDU-LHR Flight has huge corporate contracts especially from GSK which buys seats on every flight.
The

GSK's RDU area operation is a fraction of what it used to be 10 years ago. No doubt they still benefit from this flight, but they are certainly not why it's flown. FWIW every single flight flown (US carriers anyway) has contracts even if they aren't market specific (i.e. USPS contracts, hasset, other cargo companies, etc).


Also DL and UA will have this route in their contract with GSK too. GSK is too big to not have contracts with all major airlines.
BA however is probably in a good place to take over as it’s same alliance and JV but they won’t have planes and crew that have to do a W pattern like AA does which is inefficient.

Not out if RDU AA started this flight because of GSK. And GSK buys seats on it every flight.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/bl ... kfurt.html

And the upgraded the plane due to demand.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local ... 91563.html
 
lhpdx
Posts: 933
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:34 pm

I'm curious to know how this new AA/AS alliance will benefit all of Alaska's other hubs and focus cities ie PDX, SFO, LAX, SJC and SAN???
 
rbavfan
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:35 pm

LAXintl wrote:
I foresee issues with DOT/DOJ in trying to get this through especially since AA/AS are so openly touting various forms of cooperating commercially.

Surprised they did not follow the UA/US model, where while alliance partners, the airlines did not work very closely or coordinate commercial activity very deeply.



They will not get Anti trust between 2 US based carriers though.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:36 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
RvA wrote:
alasizon wrote:

There is nothing about a W pattern that is inefficient; in fact it actually allows better timings for many of the routes ex-LHR by allowing equipment to cross-over and match with the departure time that is best for that market.


With AA not having 777 crew and pilots at either LHR nor RDU it is inefficient compared to normal routings and can lead to potential problems should there be maintenance issues/delays etc. Having crew timing out at a hub is more likely able to be resolved better than it happening away from home.
BA serving RDU straight from their main base is more efficient.
W patters and can work, you won’t hear me say they can’t but it can be more efficient and in this case a JV partner serving it from their home may well happen one day here I imagine. Certainly wouldn’t rule that out.


There will have to be ATLEAST a 787 pilot base in SEA. Or a TDY base at a minimum. The rest requirements for ULR flying require it. It’s the same reason UA has A 787 base in IAH for only a SYD flight.

For one 787 and one 777 flight they won’t open a crew base. AA flew an A330 from ORD-DUB for a summer they didn’t open a crew base for it, they have crews overnight. Just like there is no widebody crew base in PHX and AA flies 333s to HI at times from there and flies a 777 to LHR daily with no crew base.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/new codeshare with AS and LHR and India

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:40 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
RvA wrote:

With AA not having 777 crew and pilots at either LHR nor RDU it is inefficient compared to normal routings and can lead to potential problems should there be maintenance issues/delays etc. Having crew timing out at a hub is more likely able to be resolved better than it happening away from home.
BA serving RDU straight from their main base is more efficient.
W patters and can work, you won’t hear me say they can’t but it can be more efficient and in this case a JV partner serving it from their home may well happen one day here I imagine. Certainly wouldn’t rule that out.


There will have to be ATLEAST a 787 pilot base in SEA. Or a TDY base at a minimum. The rest requirements for ULR flying require it. It’s the same reason UA has A 787 base in IAH for only a SYD flight.

For one 787 and one 777 flight they won’t open a crew base. AA flew an A330 from ORD-DUB for a summer they didn’t open a crew base for it, they have crews overnight. Just like there is no widebody crew base in PHX and AA flies 333s to HI at times from there and flies a 777 to LHR daily with no crew base.


THEY HAVE TO FOR FRMS REST!!! I don’t make this crap up I live it! This isn’t bullshit I pulled out of thin air.

Do they have too? no. but are they really going to fly 8 day trips with all those hotel costs and risk a crew member getting sick in SEA and cancelling the flight immediately? THIS IS WHY UA HAS A 787
BASE IN IAH.

ORD- BUB PHX- LHR PHX - HNL arenot ULR flying the rest requirements for FAR 117 exemptions do not apply.
Last edited by CriticalPoint on Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
nine4nine
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Would this mean AS would have to vacate or lease out their gates at DAL with the AA tie up due to the W.A.? Perhaps AS leases them to Breeze? Just a thought.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
AA747123
Posts: 287
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:44 pm

Just wonder where the 789 will feed into SEA from? My guess would be DFW but you never know. I also wonder with the AA/AS tie up if we will see AA drop some routes and leave the flying to AS? AA has always struggle to make money on the west coast. Could AA drop routes such as SJC/SFO-LAX and leave that to AS? Would AA keep the 3x a day SEA LAX? Or leave it to AS?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:45 pm

flyfresno wrote:
This is going to make not only SkyTeam but also Star take notice in quite a few mid-sized and smaller West Cost and Mountain cities, where OneWorld will rocket to the top in total flights and destinations.


Star needs to court JetBlue in response to this move.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:47 pm

American 767 wrote:
. I see JetBlue merging with Frontier, that would increase JetBlue's presence on the West by building a hub in DEN, if that ever happen.


Please god no.
 
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MalcolmInTheMoM
Posts: 29
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:48 pm

This is all very exciting and highly unexpected. I always thought that if AA were to choose a West Coast city to use as a focus city, they would have chosen to return to SJC. 1) Because of the tech business and Bay Area and 2) because SFO and SEA are already hubs for competitors. AA used to fly to NRT (I believe) from SEA on an MD-11 so they have somewhat of a history there. Still rather surprising. A great comeback to the whole LATAM fiasco a few months back.
 
Nimish
Posts: 2969
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:51 pm

x1234 wrote:
Also I think its high time for DL and their Pacific JV partner KE to make BOM & DEL daily and launch BLR like they have with their EU partners (AF/KL).

Absolutely!

maps4ltd wrote:
Bangalore seems like something out of an April Fools thread.

All for your giggles today!

Richardgoesto wrote:
I do not get why you are all surprised by BLR. Bangalore is a giant market for corporate travel. It is probably the main destination for this kind of market.
I was meeting a lot of business travel consultants and travel manager last week and they were all agreeing that BLR is the market with the highest demand for business trips in India.

Could not agree more. However we do have a few who believe that BOM/ DEL is the end of the Indian market.

usairways85 wrote:
What's the SEA-BLR market? International from an outstation like this is one thing, but BLR is a major splash. I have no idea what the market is so maybe it's not that crazy as it sounds

Plenty of tech traffic, followed by the VFR crowds. Huge traffic IMO - EK launched SEA primarly for this traffic.

Adipocere wrote:
I am shocked at what happened on the India side. I can’t think of any other major airline that flies to BLR that already doesn’t fly to BOM and DEL. It’s shocking that AA bypassed India’s Tier 1 cities in DEL, BOM, CCU and MAA and went straight to BLR. MAA is southern India’s premier gateway city and has been shockingly bypassed. I hope AA knows it’s geography with this plan..

I think this is a good option for AA, they already tried DEL in the past and failed. This might put a spoke on BA going 2X daily though.

deltaffindfw wrote:
On the Tell Me Why podcast, Vasu said that BLR is the #1 destination that they see for AA travelers. Also, the only city in the US that the 789 can fly without decent payload restrictions is SEA. So, this works for them. He also said that you will see incremental international growth from SEA and LAX because of this.

Yup - lots of feed via LHR/ BA, instead route the west coast traffic via SEA on AA metal going forward. Let the mid-west/ East coast continue via LHR.

adi00654 wrote:
Next in the lot UA SFO-BLR.

I think AA just kicked UA where it hurts. That being said the ~600mi extra distance from SFO to BLR makes the route much more difficult to operate!

CPS001 wrote:
In terms of numbers, BLR is #5 in international pax, behind MAA and even COK. Not saying that international isn't growing, but it will be a few years before they overtake MAA at #3. Most of the growth is due to IndiGo's hub.

While BLR is #5 internationally - please keep in mind that #3 and #4 are largely the labor traffic heading to the middle east and South East Asia. BLR is definitely not #5 when it comes to traffic ex-SEA & the Pacific North west - which is what this route is all about.

With JL starting Summer 2020, and AA starting Winter 2020, that suddenly boosts Oneworld in BLR. BA, QR, MH, JL, UL, AA and perhaps some others that I can't think of. And puts the *A at a disadvantage - with AI/ SQ/ TG and LH being the primary carriers at BLR.
Incredible India!
 
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precure787
Posts: 219
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:53 pm

Would that men there could be a possible merger between AS and AA? I know that shortly after CO joined Star Alliance, it merged with UA.
Edward Zen/Precure 787
 
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Jamake1
Posts: 1007
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:54 pm

x1234 wrote:
ndia needs to develop freeways like the rest of the developing world.


No. India needs to develop high-speed rail.
Come fly the sun.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:57 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
I suppose this will mean the end of AS LAX-BOS.


Not at all.


AA has plenty capacity on LAX-BOS. No need for also-ran AS.
If AS moves TCON capacity from LAX to SFO/SEA, they then can compete more effectively against DL/UA.
 
jbpdx
Posts: 866
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:59 pm

precure787 wrote:
Would that men there could be a possible merger between AS and AA? I know that shortly after CO joined Star Alliance, it merged with UA.


Let’s hope not. I’m an Alaska Mileage Plan flier and in general I like Alaska. After my connection fiasco in Charlotte on American last March, I vowed to never fly with them again.
^
 
EMB170
Posts: 373
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:00 pm

DL will be happy to funnel the US-BLR traffic via the daily AF connection or the 4 weekly KL connections for ST members.

They will lose that battle from SEA because:
SEA-BLR 7,019 nm
SEA-CDG-BLR 8,587 nm (+22.3%) + connection time[/quote]

Don't want to throw cold water on AA's parade, but...

Two routes from SEA (LHR and BLR) do not an international gateway make. Does AA serve BLR from any of its existing hubs, like ORD or LAX? If not, then these routes, while bold adds, seem like non-sequiturs to me. Clearly AA believes it can feed these flights with AS's connecting traffic, but the question remains, if all of AS's connecting traffic wasn't enough to sufficiently feed DL's international flights, what makes AA think they'll be more successful? And with fewer destinations to choose from?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
cm642
Posts: 118
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:02 pm

At this point I'm waiting to see how DL is going to respond, no doubt in my mind they're going to retaliate!
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