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blrsea
Posts: 1950
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:35 pm

CPS001 wrote:
adi00654 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I am shocked at what happened on the India side. I can’t think of any other major airline that flies to BLR that already doesn’t fly to BOM and DEL. It’s shocking that AA bypassed India’s Tier 1 cities in DEL, BOM, CCU and MAA and went straight to BLR. MAA is southern India’s premier gateway city and has been shockingly bypassed. I hope AA knows it’s geography with this plan..



FYKI,BLR has already surpassed MAA long ago and it's now the south India's premier gateway.It relatively has more pax numbers and third leading airport in India.BLR is a tier 1 city.

Next in the lot UA SFO-BLR.


In terms of numbers, BLR is #5 in international pax, behind MAA and even COK. Not denying that international isn't growing, but it will be a few years before they overtake MAA. Most of the growth is due to IndiGo's hub.

That being said, congrats to BLR and a refreshing change to BOM/DEL for US flights.


COK's main traffic is to middle-east while MAA's is to SE Asia. BLR has more traffic to Europe & US. That's why you have more European airlines serving BLR compared to MAA/HYD. There are no European airlines serving COK/CCU.
 
airbazar
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Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:36 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
WOW!!! AA going to India out of Seattle!?!


Pragmatically, it's an easier ULH route than LAX-BLR being ~1000 sm shorter at 8,078 sm. There's also this certain software company at both ends of that route...


Microsoft’s India HQ is Hyderabad, but the do have people in Bangalore too. My understanding is Amazon does have their largest India footprint in Bangalore.


Anyone that's ever been to Bangalore will tell you the tech sector in Bangalore is absolutely enormous and the travel it generates is huge. It's not just the technology giants. It's nearly every major company has a tech presence in Bangalore. This route will send shockwaves to the rest of the airlines who until now patronized their customers by forcing them to connect in Europe, and with poor connections at that - I'm looking at you Lufthansa.
Watch UA and DL follow suite with a BLR route announcement soon.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:36 pm

This will put all the a.net talk of an AS/B6 merger to bed.
 
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chepos
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AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:38 pm

jbpdx wrote:
So American will now compete against British Airways on SEA-LHR?


Sigh.... AA and BA are in a JV, they don’t compete against each other on TA routes. They complement each other, just like they do on DFW, MIA, LAX, PHX, PHL, etc to LHR.


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winginit
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:40 pm

jbpdx wrote:
So American will now compete against British Airways on SEA-LHR?


They’re anti-trust immunized joint venture partners so... no.

They’ll compete against the DL/VS JV
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:41 pm

I foresee issues with DOT/DOJ in trying to get this through especially since AA/AS are so openly touting various forms of cooperating commercially.

Surprised they did not follow the UA/US model, where while alliance partners, the airlines did not work very closely or coordinate commercial activity very deeply.
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blr380
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:41 pm

OMG! I really thought this was one of those April Fool's post when I read this morning. Very smart move IMO. BLR carries a lot of premium traffic. AF/KL has been doing very well. Nice to see another option from OW. I couldn't find the exact schedule online - will try to get on to inaugural flight!
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:42 pm

So in the absence of a crew base does that 789 do something like ORD-LHR-SEA-BLR-SEA-LHR-ORD (rather than a domestic widebody to get the a/c to SEA)?
 
BigGSFO
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:42 pm

jbpdx wrote:
So American will now compete against British Airways on SEA-LHR?

Technically no, they have a Joint Venture/Revenue Sharing agreement. It would be as if BA and AA operated the flights as one airline, much like they do now on every other flight they both operate with their own metal (i.e. LAX-LHR, JFK-LHR, etc).
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:45 pm

HNLSLCPDX wrote:
This will put all the a.net talk of an AS/B6 merger to bed.


(A.net mavens will gear up to resume the DL/B6 linkage discussions...)
 
sonicruiser
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:45 pm

SEA-BLR???? Did not see that coming.

Damn, AA is turning up the heat on DL. They want revenge for LATAM and it looks like they're going to get it.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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jbpdx
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:47 pm

BigGSFO wrote:
jbpdx wrote:
So American will now compete against British Airways on SEA-LHR?

Technically no, they have a Joint Venture/Revenue Sharing agreement. It would be as if BA and AA operated the flights as one airline, much like they do now on every other flight they both operate with their own metal (i.e. LAX-LHR, JFK-LHR, etc).


2 BA, 1 AA and 2 Virgin Atlantic SEA-LHR. OK.
^
 
atcpeter
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:48 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
So in the absence of a crew base does that 789 do something like ORD-LHR-SEA-BLR-SEA-LHR-ORD (rather than a domestic widebody to get the a/c to SEA)?


There is already some chatter of AA opening a SEA crew base to support this route and (what I'm sure will be) other route enhancements as well. AA has plenty of time to figure out the details (fleet mix and quals; remember, their FAs are cross-trained on many A/C types).
 
alasizon
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:54 pm

LAXintl wrote:
I foresee issues with DOT/DOJ in trying to get this through especially since AA/AS are so openly touting various forms of cooperating commercially.

Surprised they did not follow the UA/US model, where while alliance partners, the airlines did not work very closely or coordinate commercial activity very deeply.


I don't foresee as many issues as if you had told me this news back in 2016/2017. I suspect the existing codeshare restrictions on overlapping routes will remain as well as probably additional codeshare restrictions on PHX/LAX-PacNW but adding the International flights is really a way around this since AS couldn't reasonably be inferred to be adding SEA-BLR/LHR. As long as AA sticks to long haul routes and beefing up from their hubs to SEA/PDX they should have no real hurdles to cross.

The interesting part will be the aircraft rotation (does it come from LAX or DFW) and gating situation since nowhere on D can fit a 787.
Last edited by alasizon on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:54 pm

airbazar wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Pragmatically, it's an easier ULH route than LAX-BLR being ~1000 sm shorter at 8,078 sm. There's also this certain software company at both ends of that route...


Microsoft’s India HQ is Hyderabad, but the do have people in Bangalore too. My understanding is Amazon does have their largest India footprint in Bangalore.


Anyone that's ever been to Bangalore will tell you the tech sector in Bangalore is absolutely enormous and the travel it generates is huge. It's not just the technology giants. It's nearly every major company has a tech presence in Bangalore. This route will send shockwaves to the rest of the airlines who until now patronized their customers by forcing them to connect in Europe, and with poor connections at that - I'm looking at you Lufthansa.
Watch UA and DL follow suite with a BLR route announcement soon.


Was responding to the comment about local Seattle tech presence. I think if UA could launch SFO-BLR it would crush AA given the lack of local hub. I get the AS relationship, but DL tried to build a SEA intl network with AS as a partner and that didn’t work either.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: American to launch SEA-BLR flights in Oct 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:56 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Looks like AA found a way to get DL back for the whole LATAM fiasco.


They sure did...it's a big FU to DL.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:56 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=585907&p=8997063&hilit=BLR#p8997063
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
SEA is the only major US airport that could reasonably one stop Southern Indian airports like BLR & MAA & HYD.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599453&p=9443463&hilit=BLR#p9443463
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Sorry but unless DL does something bold (SEA-BLR/MAA/HYD or LAX-BOM/DEL) with an armada of the right plane (787-9) I see nothing working. Sure they can compete for some important O&D traffic between NYC and BOM/DEL, but they cannot conquer India.


Did not think it would be AA, lol. Just Wow.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1352931&p=19313211&hilit=BLR#p19313229
LAXdude1023 wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
DL, building up SEA to India with a fleet of A359s would make more sense for them than any other hub. To differentiate themselves they would need to go to places besides DEL and BOM like BLR or MAA.


No way. For an America carrier to make any North America market (not named New York or Toronto) to work, you need massive feed. AI can make ORD, SFO and IAD work because of lower operating costs and in the case of SFO has a majority India origin for the market.

Flying to India from SEA is a terrible idea.

From another thread, lol.
Last edited by YouGeeElWhy on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
aaflyer777
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Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:56 pm

jfk777 wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
Anyone know where this LHR slot is coming from?


AA has a huge amount of Heathrow slots, among the largest after BA. Every time a new AA flights starts this question always comes up, why ? Just accept they have enough slots, AA isn't going to cut back any of their other LHR flights.


Yeah thats the the thing though, they don't have enough slots to run their current schedule and add SEA unless they have acquired a new set of slots. If they don't have any new slots coming to them then something will have to be cut in order to launch SEA.
 
airbazar
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Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:03 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
airbazar wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

Microsoft’s India HQ is Hyderabad, but the do have people in Bangalore too. My understanding is Amazon does have their largest India footprint in Bangalore.


Anyone that's ever been to Bangalore will tell you the tech sector in Bangalore is absolutely enormous and the travel it generates is huge. It's not just the technology giants. It's nearly every major company has a tech presence in Bangalore. This route will send shockwaves to the rest of the airlines who until now patronized their customers by forcing them to connect in Europe, and with poor connections at that - I'm looking at you Lufthansa.
Watch UA and DL follow suite with a BLR route announcement soon.


Was responding to the comment about local Seattle tech presence. I think if UA could launch SFO-BLR it would crush AA given the lack of local hub. I get the AS relationship, but DL tried to build a SEA intl network with AS as a partner and that didn’t work either.


The thing is Seattle is a very different tech hub than it was even just 5 years ago. It's giant, probably more so than even Silicon Valley. This route makes all the sense in the world, with or without a hub. Sillicon Valley is old news. All the new kids want to be in Seattle.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:05 pm

adi00654 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I am shocked at what happened on the India side. I can’t think of any other major airline that flies to BLR that already doesn’t fly to BOM and DEL. It’s shocking that AA bypassed India’s Tier 1 cities in DEL, BOM, CCU and MAA and went straight to BLR. MAA is southern India’s premier gateway city and has been shockingly bypassed. I hope AA knows it’s geography with this plan..



FYKI,BLR has already surpassed MAA long ago and it's now the south India's premier gateway.It relatively has more pax numbers and third leading airport in India.BLR is a tier 1 city.

Next in the lot UA SFO-BLR.


MAA still has more international traffic than BLR. But of course to Europe/N Am BLR is bigger.

MAA much bigger to the Gulf and South Asia though BLR catching up.
 
usairways85
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:07 pm

Adipocere wrote:
I am shocked at what happened on the India side. I can’t think of any other major airline that flies to BLR that already doesn’t fly to BOM and DEL. It’s shocking that AA bypassed India’s Tier 1 cities in DEL, BOM, CCU and MAA and went straight to BLR. MAA is southern India’s premier gateway city and has been shockingly bypassed. I hope AA knows it’s geography with this plan..

When you think about AA's recent TA strategy (BUD, DBV, PRG, KRK), BLR isn't that crazy

This will mean domestic widebodies into SEA, I suspect from DFW.

I assume the SEA-LHR flight supplements BA and doesn't replace one of them?
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:14 pm

Did not expect SEA-BLR. I was betting on PHL-DEL.

Anyways, I’m glad AS and AA are partners again, I live in ORD and I’m an AS member so this is great news for me
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
TWA902fly
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:14 pm

I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?
4) What benefit does all of this have for AS as opposed to their current model of code sharing with anyone that flies to SEA? Is AA going to be okay with their buddy AS feeding every single one of their competitors at SEA (except for DL/AF)?
5) How is the DOJ/DOT going to respond - there were already some pretty heavy restrictions on their partnership - won't getting even closer bring even more scrutiny?
6) On the front of it, it really seems that AA is just trying to get back at DL for stealing LATAM... but what's really going to change? Basically one extra route? They're not stealing AS from DL... I expect Delta to push back hard.

I'd love to hear all of your thoughts on the above. This is an interesting development no matter what way you look at it.

'902
Last edited by TWA902fly on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ElroyJetson
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm

Competition is always a good thing. May the best airline win. :wave:
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x1234
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:20 pm

I asked this SFO-BLR or SFO-BOM question in the UA forum and jayunited essentially told me because SFO-DEL flies over Afghanistan the B789 takes extra fuel so it won't divert to Afghanistan or Iran so there's excess contigency fuel when the B789 lands. With this SFO-BOM is near the edge of the B789 range and SFO-BLR is out of the range. That's why UA hasn't started SFO-BOM/BLR yet. I really hope with the A350 UA starts SFO-BOM/BLR. What UA CAN do is fly EWR-BLR with the B789.
Last edited by x1234 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dfw88
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:22 pm

jbpdx wrote:
So American will now compete against British Airways on SEA-LHR?


No. That route is covered by their metal-neutral transatlantic JV, so they will revenue share on the route, just like all others from the US and Canada to Europe.
 
mpdpilot
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:23 pm

enilria wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I thought it was April Fool's Day for a moment. Wow. Just wow. I literally almost just s**t my pants on the Metro reading this right now.

So many questions:

-Why did AS/AA reverse some of their partnership benefits/FF program devaluation, only to reverse course now? How long has this been in the making?
-What is the future of LAX with this announcement? "Serving India nonstop from LAX is impossible with our current fleet?"
-Is DP still at the controls? Seems to bold for his leadership style.
-What happens to AS's mileage based FF program?

If anything these flights will essentially be "Alaska Airlines International operated by American Airlines".

The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
FSDan
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:26 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?


Gate space, for one thing. It would be very difficult at this point for AA to acquire a meaningful number of gates at SEA for significant domestic expansion of their own. When DL started their buildup, there were gates available for the taking.

TWA902fly wrote:
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?


No, their plan is not to displace DL out of SEA (certainly not with their own metal, anyway - if further strengthening AS's position in SEA eventually led DL to pull back, I'm sure they would still count that as a win).

BLR seems like a targeted and opportunistic add (see further comments below), and LHR is already a place of strength for AA/BA. It sounds like we can expect to see one or two more adds along these lines (perhaps SIN eventually?), but don't expect AA to try to match DL in serving all the major Asian markets from SEA.

TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have to reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?


This is actually a very clever add by AA because DL doesn't have the right aircraft to retaliate on the route (77L would be too much capacity), and UA might not be able to launch SFO-BLR without severe weight restrictions (LAX-SIN reportedly failed for that reason, and SFO-BLR isn't much shorter). Maybe if the Bay Area-BLR fares are high enough, UA could still make SFO-BLR work even with weight restrictions, but I don't think that would necessarily take too much away from AA's potential on SEA-BLR.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:26 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=585907&p=8997063&hilit=BLR#p8997063
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
SEA is the only major US airport that could reasonably one stop Southern Indian airports like BLR & MAA & HYD.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599453&p=9443463&hilit=BLR#p9443463
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
Sorry but unless DL does something bold (SEA-BLR/MAA/HYD or LAX-BOM/DEL) with an armada of the right plane (787-9) I see nothing working. Sure they can compete for some important O&D traffic between NYC and BOM/DEL, but they cannot conquer India.


Did not think it would be AA, lol. Just Wow.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1352931&p=19313211&hilit=BLR#p19313229
LAXdude1023 wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
DL, building up SEA to India with a fleet of A359s would make more sense for them than any other hub. To differentiate themselves they would need to go to places besides DEL and BOM like BLR or MAA.


No way. For an America carrier to make any North America market (not named New York or Toronto) to work, you need massive feed. AI can make ORD, SFO and IAD work because of lower operating costs and in the case of SFO has a majority India origin for the market.

Flying to India from SEA is a terrible idea.

From another thread, lol.


I specifically said they would need "massive feed".

Through AS, they will have that.
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TWA902fly
Posts: 3134
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:28 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
enilria wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I thought it was April Fool's Day for a moment. Wow. Just wow. I literally almost just s**t my pants on the Metro reading this right now.

So many questions:

-Why did AS/AA reverse some of their partnership benefits/FF program devaluation, only to reverse course now? How long has this been in the making?
-What is the future of LAX with this announcement? "Serving India nonstop from LAX is impossible with our current fleet?"
-Is DP still at the controls? Seems to bold for his leadership style.
-What happens to AS's mileage based FF program?

If anything these flights will essentially be "Alaska Airlines International operated by American Airlines".

The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.


I think it makes AA look weak as it is a reaction to DL stealing LATAM. I can't see AS dropping all of their current agreements with others in SEA solely for AA, so this might not change much for AS, and doesn't show them to be either weak or strong.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
dfw88
Posts: 130
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:30 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
So in the absence of a crew base does that 789 do something like ORD-LHR-SEA-BLR-SEA-LHR-ORD (rather than a domestic widebody to get the a/c to SEA)?


No, it likely won't be that. One Mile at a Time is reporting that the SEA-LHR flight will be on a 772, so the 789 for SEA-LHR will likely just come on a domestic turn. I would guess from DFW, but we'll have to wait and see. I would also assume that the 772 from LHR will do a swap in LHR, which is something AA does sometimes (or used to do, don't have time to check now), something like JFK-LHR-SEA-LHR-JFK.
 
N649DL
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:30 pm

This is good for some outstations like EWR where literally concourse A-3 is a direct split between AS and AA gates. Might as well be known as the OW concourse (until it gets leveled for the new terminal.)
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
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Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:31 pm

aaflyer777 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
aaflyer777 wrote:
Anyone know where this LHR slot is coming from?


AA has a huge amount of Heathrow slots, among the largest after BA. Every time a new AA flights starts this question always comes up, why ? Just accept they have enough slots, AA isn't going to cut back any of their other LHR flights.


Yeah thats the the thing though, they don't have enough slots to run their current schedule and add SEA unless they have acquired a new set of slots. If they don't have any new slots coming to them then something will have to be cut in order to launch SEA.


Assuming AA's SEA-LHR will add to BA's existing service and not take over one of their flights, it would seem fairly straightforward for BA to take over an AA frequency from DFW-LHR or ORD-LHR (where AA currently is up to 4x daily each in the summer) and reduce something elsewhere in their massive slot portfolio, while AA would end up operating the same number of LHR flights as they do currently.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:33 pm

mpdpilot wrote:
enilria wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I thought it was April Fool's Day for a moment. Wow. Just wow. I literally almost just s**t my pants on the Metro reading this right now.

So many questions:

-Why did AS/AA reverse some of their partnership benefits/FF program devaluation, only to reverse course now? How long has this been in the making?
-What is the future of LAX with this announcement? "Serving India nonstop from LAX is impossible with our current fleet?"
-Is DP still at the controls? Seems to bold for his leadership style.
-What happens to AS's mileage based FF program?

If anything these flights will essentially be "Alaska Airlines International operated by American Airlines".

The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.

This is not like a joint venture. They will still be competitors.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:34 pm

Personally I would much rather have seen a situation in which Delta upheld it integrity and not attempted to put the screws to Alaska with the whole SEA hub thing.

Seattle airport INFRASTRUCTURE is decades behind the times and cannot adequately handle the capacity of American as well as Delta. A much better arrangement would have been Delta to have allowed Alaska to take care of Domestic routes and continued to code-share with American.

Now the whole SEA International market is going nuclear and Seatac Airport CANNOT handle it even with the existing runways and NEW International gates!

Personally I kind of expected Alaska OneWorld membership, but honestly I see this as not a win for consumer airport convenience for the Seattle Region. Sleepless in Seattle was not due to love but AIRPLANE NOISE.

Any new airports for the locals being built in the region besides Paine Field? If you have never spent time in the region. PLANES make the Seattle region INCREDIBLY NOISY.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:34 pm

dfw88 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
So in the absence of a crew base does that 789 do something like ORD-LHR-SEA-BLR-SEA-LHR-ORD (rather than a domestic widebody to get the a/c to SEA)?


No, it likely won't be that. One Mile at a Time is reporting that the SEA-LHR flight will be on a 772, so the 789 for SEA-LHR will likely just come on a domestic turn. I would guess from DFW, but we'll have to wait and see. I would also assume that the 772 from LHR will do a swap in LHR, which is something AA does sometimes (or used to do, don't have time to check now), something like JFK-LHR-SEA-LHR-JFK.


:checkmark: That's pretty much exactly what I'd expect. AA has no qualms about running domestic 787 segments, and DFW would seem to be a natural place for the 789 to originate.

And yes, all the US3 routinely run "W" patterns like what you mentioned above to rotate aircraft between hubs (and for AA and DL, outstations too).
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
sabby
Posts: 453
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Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:35 pm

All those skeptics and bashing at AA management must be still living in the 90s. A quick search to EU/NA destinations would prove that yields are higher in BLR via 1/2 stops than non-stops from BOM/DEL. Almost all of the traffic from BLR to EU/NA is business in nature. Other than Facebook, every tech company that's worth mentioning have big offices in BLR not to mention tech/back offices of all the banks and other industries. SEA has grown a lot in the recent years as well and at both end there will be short connections to feed.

Yes, even I thought EWR-SFO is probably going to happen sooner than SEA-BLR, especially given how UA are more open to start new long hauls than AA. But this routes has virtually zero competition unlike NYC/LAX or BOM/DEL. Also SEA-BLR is at the long haul sweet spot (SFO-BLR is 7561nm, an hour longer flight) to operate without significant restrictions on the 789 and this is a polar route thus negligible headwinds. In addition to the business traffic, both the cities have a large population with significant disposable income.
 
MARSHAL1
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:29 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:36 pm

AA bought two LHR slots from SAS and allowed SAS to lease those slots for up to three years so this could be a slot that AA actually owns. AA bought several slots so the LHR-SEA slot is probably just leased to another airline. I heard that AA also leased some slots to BA but I haven't verified if that's true.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2489
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:37 pm

I suppose this will mean the end of AS LAX-BOS.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:38 pm

B6 feels so isolated now.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3134
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:38 pm

FSDan wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?


Gate space, for one thing. It would be very difficult at this point for AA to acquire a meaningful number of gates at SEA for significant domestic expansion of their own. When DL started their buildup, there were gates available for the taking.

TWA902fly wrote:
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?


No, their plan is not to displace DL out of SEA (certainly not with their own metal, anyway - if further strengthening AS's position in SEA eventually led DL to pull back, I'm sure they would still count that as a win).

BLR seems like a targeted and opportunistic add (see further comments below), and LHR is already a place of strength for AA/BA. It sounds like we can expect to see one or two more adds along these lines (perhaps SIN eventually?), but don't expect AA to try to match DL in serving all the major Asian markets from SEA.

TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have to reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?


This is actually a very clever add by AA because DL doesn't have the right aircraft to retaliate on the route (77L would be too much capacity), and UA might not be able to launch SFO-BLR without severe weight restrictions (LAX-SIN reportedly failed for that reason, and SFO-BLR isn't much shorter). Maybe if the Bay Area-BLR fares are high enough, UA could still make SFO-BLR work even with weight restrictions, but I don't think that would necessarily take too much away from AA's potential on SEA-BLR.


DL 77L seats 288 people, AA 789 seats 285 people. I assume the 777 has larger cargo capacity however.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
SATexan
Posts: 276
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:49 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:38 pm

Northwest Airlines had announced SEA-AMS-BLR sometime in mid 2000 but cancelled it a week before the launch! It only took 14 odd years but here we are !! Two MAJOR tech hubs in Seattle and Bengaluru getting connecting by AA!! Fantastic !!

BLR airport has the highest yields in India. Highest Last-minute fares to India. Heavy demand in premium cabins from West Coast to BLR. The other cities in India such as HYD, MAA and CCU are NOT EVEN CLOSE in terms of yields or premium demand. Agree that HYD has more O&D from many cities in USA. Heck, HYD-DFW is the no 1 market to India out of DFW. But there is a reason why HYD has only one European carrier to HYD; poor yield. It is lunacy that some of you are comparing COK with BLR. COK caters to cheap Gulf labor that primarily flies LCCs. Most of the LCCs flying these COK-ME are probably loss loaders due to dirt cheap fares. BLR is on another level !!
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2278
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:40 pm

I wonder what routes will be considered out of PDX and ANC once this is fires up? Could we see JL in PDX? More ANC-Lower 48 nonstops? Seasonal ANC-Europe/Japan?
 
SonaSounds
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: AS to join oneworld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:41 pm

airbazar wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Anyone that's ever been to Bangalore will tell you the tech sector in Bangalore is absolutely enormous and the travel it generates is huge. It's not just the technology giants. It's nearly every major company has a tech presence in Bangalore. This route will send shockwaves to the rest of the airlines who until now patronized their customers by forcing them to connect in Europe, and with poor connections at that - I'm looking at you Lufthansa.
Watch UA and DL follow suite with a BLR route announcement soon.


Was responding to the comment about local Seattle tech presence. I think if UA could launch SFO-BLR it would crush AA given the lack of local hub. I get the AS relationship, but DL tried to build a SEA intl network with AS as a partner and that didn’t work either.


The thing is Seattle is a very different tech hub than it was even just 5 years ago. It's giant, probably more so than even Silicon Valley. This route makes all the sense in the world, with or without a hub. Sillicon Valley is old news. All the new kids want to be in Seattle.


The Bay area has over double the number of tech jobs as Seattle and 5x the money invested over the last couple years so I don't know what you are thinking with Silicon Valley being "old news". The Bay Area alone has 33 Fortune 500 companies while the entire state of Washington has just 12......

http://cbre.vo.llnwd.net/grgservices/se ... 5d0d422192
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 807
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:41 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
enilria wrote:
The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.


I think it makes AA look weak as it is a reaction to DL stealing LATAM. I can't see AS dropping all of their current agreements with others in SEA solely for AA, so this might not change much for AS, and doesn't show them to be either weak or strong.

'902


See I think it makes them both look weak in that AS is partnering with a much larger competitor and out of SEA no less. It begs the question why? Is California not going as well as they planned? If they are doing so amazing in SEA, why add a partner? If your data is showing you that tons of people are wanting to fly to BLR and LHR, why get a partner to do it? AS is getting to the point where they are too big to use the excuse of not wanting widebodies. WestJet in Canada seems to be doing fine with their operation and they aren't nearly the size of AS.

AA IS trying to get back at DL and I agree it makes AA look weaker, but a perfectly happy AS wouldn't need AA either.

Aliqiout wrote:
mpdpilot wrote:
enilria wrote:
The REAL QUESTION is what happened with this??? The aviation market now is even less competitive than 2016.

>>>2016: Justice Department Requires Alaska Airlines to Significantly Scale Back Codeshare Agreement with American Airlines in Order to Proceed with Virgin America Acquisition

Settlement Ensures that Alaska Will Have Incentive and Ability to Vigorously Compete with Larger Airlines

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice- ... -agreement


Yeah, this is where I went right away. I don't know enough about the law but this sounds more like a JV type arrangement which I thought was a no no with a domestic partner. Is the thought that the current administration won't do anything?

Also while a big win for both AS and AA if it works, it does make them both look very desperate. Bold moves that limit competition don't typically solve those types of problems.

This is not like a joint venture. They will still be competitors.


Except it reads like they are coordinating two international routes, which I always thought was a no no. I used the term JV as that is the only thing that comes close to explaining it. Either way though even without the international adds by AA, it reads like they are going directly against the Justice Department. Which begs the question, why? Are they so desperate that they need AA regardless of the potential consequences? Or do they think the current Administration won't do anything? Either way it is pretty bold.
Last edited by mpdpilot on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?

Hence why they want AS so they can get the feed without actually adding a lot of AA metal.
TWA902fly wrote:
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?

I don't know if DL has the aircraft to compete on SEA-BLR. It's 500nm longer than LAX-SYD and BLR is at 3,000 ft altitude and most of the year is hot and humid. This would likely have to be a 77L route. Does DL have 2 spare 77L's? And is that efficient enough to compete against the 789?
As for whether there is room for more airlines, I believe there is. Currently you have at least 12 daily flights into BLR offering connections to the U.S. EK alone has 3x 77W and a big chunk of those passengers are U.S. bound.
 
B752OS
Posts: 1260
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:05 am

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm

In the span of a month or so, American has made some moves in Boston and now Seattle. This is great for the consumer.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 714
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:42 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Personally I would much rather have seen a situation in which Delta upheld it integrity and not attempted to put the screws to Alaska with the whole SEA hub thing.

Seattle airport INFRASTRUCTURE is decades behind the times and cannot adequately handle the capacity of American as well as Delta. A much better arrangement would have been Delta to have allowed Alaska to take care of Domestic routes and continued to code-share with American.

Now the whole SEA International market is going nuclear and Seatac Airport CANNOT handle it even with the existing runways and NEW International gates!

Personally I kind of expected Alaska OneWorld membership, but honestly I see this as not a win for consumer airport convenience for the Seattle Region. Sleepless in Seattle was not due to love but AIRPLANE NOISE.

Any new airports for the locals being built in the region besides Paine Field? If you have never spent time in the region. PLANES make the Seattle region INCREDIBLY NOISY.

Yeah, the hundreds of thousands of vehicles on the road, the bustling operations at the Port of Seattle, Port of Tacoma and Port of Everett, rail and nearly 4.5 million people in the region make absolutely zero noise.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
FSDan
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Re: AA to make SEA an INT hub/launches SEA-BLR in Oct 20/AS to join OneWorld

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:43 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
SEA-BLR will need 2.5 frames. The new 787's are basically replacing the 763's one for one. I don't see how AA gets airframe time for this route without cutting elsewhere.


Without knowing the exact schedule of the route, I'd expect it to require no more than 2 frames (in the sense that an airline with a fleet of just 2 789s could run SEA-BLR daily).

Also, note that the 787-8s are replacing the 763s, and there's some room for growth there: 16 763s left to retire according to Wiki, with the first of 22 more 788s yet to arrive. I'd also assume the additional order for 787-9s includes room for growth.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: AS to join OneWorld / AA to make SEA an Intl gateway

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:44 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
I must admit, I am a little skeptical about all of this working out as planned;

1) What would stop AA from screwing over AS just like DL did? is that something they can even write into a cooperation agreement?
2) SEA (even with the new international arrivals area coming soon) is sort of bursting at the seams, how much can AA really add? Is their plan to displace DL out of SEA?
3) At this point, all DL has to do is add SEA-BLR, and whatever corporate tech contracts they have in SEA have no reason to jump to AA, especially if they can get the route started earlier than AA. Also, I think it's quite likely now that UA will add SFO-BLR. Is there room for more than one US-BLR nonstop?
4) What benefit does all of this have for AS as opposed to their current model of code sharing with anyone that flies to SEA? Is AA going to be okay with their buddy AS feeding every single one of their competitors at SEA (except for DL/AF)?
5) How is the DOJ/DOT going to respond - there were already some pretty heavy restrictions on their partnership - won't getting even closer bring even more scrutiny?
6) On the front of it, it really seems that AA is just trying to get back at DL for stealing LATAM... but what's really going to change? Basically one extra route? They're not stealing AS from DL... I expect Delta to push back hard.

I'd love to hear all of your thoughts on the above. This is an interesting development no matter what way you look at it.

'902


Here are some thoughts...

1) AS will be a member of Oneworld. That makes them partners whether they like it or not.
2) AA doesn't need to build up frequencies at SEA, it's already there in the form of AS, the soon-to-be alliance partner that will provide connectivity.
3) A possibility since DL does have its own feed to SEA. Could there be more than one BLR non-stop from the U.S.? Maybe, further fragmentation of international routes just like we're seeing on so many others, partly thanks to the 787 and A350, is probably the bigger question.
4) Some of AS's current partners are Oneworld so that might not change. As for the others, time will tell. It's not like AA doesn't know the landscape.
5) Has been discussed in other posts. Also, becoming an alliance member probably changes things.
6) Also discussed in other posts. How does DL gaining South America access relate to AS in the PNW and getting Oneworld benefits? AS and AA see this as a good business decision for themselves.

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