LDRA
Topic Author
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

CFM Leap engine option for A220

Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:56 pm

Now that Airbus is in full control of A220 program and looking to ramp up A220 production to 150 units per year, does it make sense to develop a second engine option with CFM? Considering GTF is having uncontained failures on A220

Is it even contractually possible? Does PW have sole source agreement in place on C series power plant?
 
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Boeing757rb211
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:24 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:59 am

Just bolt on some Rolls Royce RB211-535E4B's on the A220-2000 and -300 and that thing would be a freaking Maserati of the skies.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:16 am

I think the trend is going the other way. No future models from both Boeing or Airbus will have two engine options.

Pratt will get their engine sorted well before a second engine type could be introduced. Yes there is a larger risk having one engine option but i do not see airlines buying two engine types to reduce risk.

I could see Boeing going GE sole source with the upcoming 787NEO. Just like with the 777W GE will invest money for a large 5+% fuel burn improvement in exchange for getting sole source.

Pratt, GE and Rolls will probably do more joint bids to get sole source in the future. The CFM LEAP for example I estimate to be 70% GE and 30% Safran. The LEAP gets called a CFM engine. The GEnx engine is probably 90% GE and 10% Safran yet gets called a GE engine.

I could see a 60% GE, 20% Pratt and 20% Safran partnership getting sole source on the 797. GE would do the overall design. Safran would help with the core like on most GE products and Pratt would provide the gearbox.

I think Rolls will stick with Airbus and team up with Pratt for a future narrowbody engine. Would it be called Pratt Royce engine?
 
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ikolkyo
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:24 am

Not point in adding more cost when you’re not even making a profit yet.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1856
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:39 am

Upcoming 787 Neo?
 
milhaus
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:19 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:54 am

Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.
 
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reidar76
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:10 am

Maybe the LEAP 1b, the engine developed for the 737 MAX, can be used (nearly) unmodified on the A220? The LEAP 1b has a slightly smaller (2 inches) fansize than the A220 PW engine. Weight isn't that different either.

I little bird told me that there is significant available LEAP 1b production capabilities in the GE factories. GE only manufacturers 737 MCAS engines, while Safran manufacturers all LEAP 1a (Airbus) and LEAP 1c (Comac) engines.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9307
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:11 am

Boeing757rb211 wrote:
Just bolt on some Rolls Royce RB211-535E4B's on the A220-2000 and -300 and that thing would be a freaking Maserati of the skies.


Rebirth of the towed transport glider for carrying the fuel :-)

As it happens one of the Airbus fathers, Felix Kracht,
was instrumental in developing an extensible tow/fueling system during WWII.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftbetan ... _Segelflug
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18274
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:14 am

RickNRoll wrote:
Upcoming 787 Neo?


Yep, another Boeing fantasy plane.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9315
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:05 am

I would think a big negative for the LEAP-1B on the A220 would be the weight.

PW 1500G, weight 2,177 kg wet, fan 185 cm, thrust up to 106 KN
LEAP-1B, weight 2,780 kg dry, fan 176 cm, thrust up to 130 KN

The LEAP-1A on the A320neo family, is slightly heavier than the PW1100G. About 3000 kg compared to 2860 kg. It has also the smaller fan. 198 cm compared to 206 cm. So the LEAP tends to be overall the heavier engine.

CFM would have to build a new version of the LEAP for the A220 to try to be competitive.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9307
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:19 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I would think a big negative for the LEAP-1B on the A220 would be the weight.

PW 1500G, weight 2,177 kg wet, fan 185 cm, thrust up to 106 KN
LEAP-1B, weight 2,780 kg dry, fan 176 cm, thrust up to 130 KN

The LEAP-1A on the A320neo family, is slightly heavier than the PW1100G. About 3000 kg compared to 2860 kg. It has also the smaller fan. 198 cm compared to 206 cm. So the LEAP tends to be overall the heavier engine.

CFM would have to build a new version of the LEAP for the A220 to try to be competitive.


The advantage of the twice the rpm smaller diameter with less blades LP turbine is quite visible.
Even with the additional gearbox mass.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:43 pm

milhaus wrote:
Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.


I believe that would be illegal. I believe aircraft manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture their own engines. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
planecane
Posts: 1432
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:43 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.


I believe that would be illegal. I believe aircraft manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture their own engines. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Why would that be illegal? Auto manufacturers make their own engines.
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 363
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:44 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
No future models from both Boeing or Airbus will have two engine options.


And in my eyes this is a wrong way to go.

Yes more engine options adds tremendous costs. But it helps to get the best out of the certain aircraft. It helps to sell more aircraft.

Each engine has its advantages and disadvantages for every airline, they also have their own sensitivities with the manufacturers and can choose what they want. Today it is even more important because of the greater differences between the engine concepts than earlier.

The success and partly tremendous unit numbers of A300, A320ceo, A330ceo, 747-200 to -400, 757, 767, 777classics and 787 and also the A320neo tells its own tale.

A 777X with a RR ultrafan option would boost the orders. A future 787neo with only one engine option will fall behind the current one. And a A220 with another engine options would also boost the orders and probably make it to a real successor of the A319.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1381
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:49 pm

Not a chance imho. Why go to a heavier engine that burns more fuel and is at the end of a development cycle?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2626
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:53 pm

planecane wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.


I believe that would be illegal. I believe aircraft manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture their own engines. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Why would that be illegal? Auto manufacturers make their own engines.


There is a law in the USA about such a thing I do believe.

Was it Curtis it caused to be broken up in the 30s?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1483
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:03 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.


I believe that would be illegal. I believe aircraft manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture their own engines. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Per wiki:
After the Air Mail scandal of 1934, the U.S. government concluded that such large holding companies as United Aircraft and Transport were anti-competitive, and new antitrust laws were passed forbidding airframe or engine manufacturers from having interests in airlines.


There is nothing preventing airframe manufacturers to own an engine manufacturer; they might be forced though to offer the engine for sale to the competition (just like GM was forced to offer their 2-stroke Diesel to other bus manufacturers).
 
LDRA
Topic Author
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:24 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Not point in adding more cost when you’re not even making a profit yet.


All the GTF issues are going to potentiallly deter sale.
With ramping up to 150 per year, the economy of scale is there for a second engine option
 
LDRA
Topic Author
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:25 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Not a chance imho. Why go to a heavier engine that burns more fuel and is at the end of a development cycle?

I would say Leap is at start of its life cycle. The key sale point versus GTF is reliability
 
LDRA
Topic Author
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I would think a big negative for the LEAP-1B on the A220 would be the weight.

PW 1500G, weight 2,177 kg wet, fan 185 cm, thrust up to 106 KN
LEAP-1B, weight 2,780 kg dry, fan 176 cm, thrust up to 130 KN

The LEAP-1A on the A320neo family, is slightly heavier than the PW1100G. About 3000 kg compared to 2860 kg. It has also the smaller fan. 198 cm compared to 206 cm. So the LEAP tends to be overall the heavier engine.

CFM would have to build a new version of the LEAP for the A220 to try to be competitive.

Might have to do it with the A220-500 stretch. The extra thrust from bigger core would be useful, and worth the weight gain

Otherwise, maybe take out the first stage in HP compressor to reduce weight and decrease core flow rate?
 
WIederling
Posts: 9307
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: CFM Leap engine option for A220

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:05 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
milhaus wrote:
Maybe it is better idea for Airbus to go shopping again and buy Pratt and solve problems with GTF inhouse.


I believe that would be illegal. I believe aircraft manufacturers are not allowed to manufacture their own engines. Correct me if I’m wrong.


fallout from the Air Mail scandal of 1934, antitrust laws were instantiated and William Boeing / Frederick Rentschler's (planes, engines, propellers, airlines ) interest was broken up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ai ... orporation

In a similar but different way Junkers ( planes, engines, airline ) was separated from its airline
Image
which together with 2/3 other airlines was amalgamated into "Lufthansa".
Murphy is an optimist

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