Scotron12
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Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:52 pm

Seems QF have decided to go ahead with PS.

https://www.afr.com/companies/transport ... 213-p540nt
 
Williamsb747
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:29 pm

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Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:36 pm

Gives a bit more detail on the economics for QF by going ahead.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-london- ... -approval/
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:20 pm

I'm surprised the pilots don't have a scope clause that prevents QF from starting another airline and outsourcing their flying. I'm also surprised that it is legal to negotiate directly with members of a bargaining unit, which would be totally illegal in Canada.
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zeke
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:48 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
I'm surprised the pilots don't have a scope clause that prevents QF from starting another airline and outsourcing their flying. I'm also surprised that it is legal to negotiate directly with members of a bargaining unit, which would be totally illegal in Canada.


They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect
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dstblj52
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:49 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
I'm surprised the pilots don't have a scope clause that prevents QF from starting another airline and outsourcing their flying. I'm also surprised that it is legal to negotiate directly with members of a bargaining unit, which would be totally illegal in Canada.

Qanatas pilots really want scope but they don't have it currently hence their 717 are operates by the link carriers
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:02 pm

We know British Airways has A350-1000.
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.
Is it possible BA would like to serve that route with direct flights too??

They can amend their A350-1000 order, converting some of the to be delivered aircraft to ULR version.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:12 pm

According to OMAAT, Qantas have threatened their pilots to hire low cost ones to do the flight, as the union didnt agree with their plan.

https://onemileatatime.com/qantas-threa ... st-pilots/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:06 pm

VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.

Scotron12 wrote:
Gives a bit more detail on the economics for QF by going ahead.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-london- ... -approval/

One point of interest:

The UBS analysis and its revenue projections suggest Project Sunrise is viable and isn’t dependent on the outcome of a pay deal.

This suggests QF is using this opportunity to squeeze a concession out of the pilots, namely:

Qantas says that if it cannot reach a deal with AIPA, it will approach pilots directly and offer terms. According to a report published overnight in The Financial Review, Captains would receive an annual base salary of USD$265,400, first officers would receive USD$175,370 and second officers would receive USD$86,680.
...
One of the sticking points is the salary for second officers on Project Sunrise flights. Qantas wants to pay future second officers less than it will pay existing second officers. AIPA isn’t happy with this.

And:

zeke wrote:
They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect

... they have a track record of winning.

I guess the real question is if QF's pilots will decide if they should resort to strikes or not.
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hooverman
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.


Where did you read that the airplane manufacturers and passengers have to make financial concessions? I only read about the pilot's.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:52 pm

hooverman wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.


Where did you read that the airplane manufacturers and passengers have to make financial concessions? I only read about the pilot's.

We know the pax will be paying a premium for the non-stop flight so that's their financial concession.

We know the aircraft manufacturers held a prolonged set of multi round negotiations before the enhanced A350-1000 was selected which is where they were making their concessions.

Now pilots are getting their arms twisted.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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CriticalPoint
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.

Scotron12 wrote:
Gives a bit more detail on the economics for QF by going ahead.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-london- ... -approval/

One point of interest:

The UBS analysis and its revenue projections suggest Project Sunrise is viable and isn’t dependent on the outcome of a pay deal.

This suggests QF is using this opportunity to squeeze a concession out of the pilots, namely:

Qantas says that if it cannot reach a deal with AIPA, it will approach pilots directly and offer terms. According to a report published overnight in The Financial Review, Captains would receive an annual base salary of USD$265,400, first officers would receive USD$175,370 and second officers would receive USD$86,680.
...
One of the sticking points is the salary for second officers on Project Sunrise flights. Qantas wants to pay future second officers less than it will pay existing second officers. AIPA isn’t happy with this.

And:

zeke wrote:
They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect

... they have a track record of winning.

I guess the real question is if QF's pilots will decide if they should resort to strikes or not.


Those pay rates are terrible.
 
zkncj
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:07 pm

zeke wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
I'm surprised the pilots don't have a scope clause that prevents QF from starting another airline and outsourcing their flying. I'm also surprised that it is legal to negotiate directly with members of a bargaining unit, which would be totally illegal in Canada.


They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect


Wonder if Jetconnect will get its own AOC again if required, and becomes the registered operator of the a350 fleet.

Hiring the project sun rise crew on AKL based crewing conditions would be much more favourable that SYD long-haul conditions for Qantas.
 
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zeke
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:09 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:

I guess the real question is if QF's pilots will decide if they should resort to strikes or not.


Those pay rates are terrible.[/quote]

I think QF operate some flights with two second officers, the ULR flying I think would be just one.
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Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:23 pm

Just as a question: If QF did resort to hiring 400 pilots for PS, where would they come from and what training would be required?

As mentioned, 400 pilots are almost an airline on it's own.
 
zkncj
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:28 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Just as a question: If QF did resort to hiring 400 pilots for PS, where would they come from and what training would be required?

As mentioned, 400 pilots are almost an airline on it's own.


There are plenty out there at the moment looking for work, many foreign pilots working for Chinese airlines are current out of work. It’s likely it will be the case for an while too, I wouldn’t expect the Chinese market to be back to normal overnight.

CX is likely to be laying off pilots over the next few years, the way they are going at the moment.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:43 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Just as a question: If QF did resort to hiring 400 pilots for PS, where would they come from and what training would be required?

As mentioned, 400 pilots are almost an airline on it's own.

Four hundred pilots can support a lot of frames- maybe even 15 in a double-crewed ULH config.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:10 am

Scotron12 wrote:
Just as a question: If QF did resort to hiring 400 pilots for PS, where would they come from and what training would be required?

As mentioned, 400 pilots are almost an airline on it's own.


Thanks to CoronaVirus, there are a lot of pilots out there looking for work. The timing is great for QF, less so for their current pilots.
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hooverman
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:28 am

Revelation wrote:
hooverman wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.


Where did you read that the airplane manufacturers and passengers have to make financial concessions? I only read about the pilot's.

We know the pax will be paying a premium for the non-stop flight so that's their financial concession.

We know the aircraft manufacturers held a prolonged set of multi round negotiations before the enhanced A350-1000 was selected which is where they were making their concessions.

Now pilots are getting their arms twisted.


It's not a concession but a choice for the passengers. They can take the one stop option they always had.
Do you mean that as a concession Airbus would sell the plane with a loss?
The pilot's are indeed getting their arms twisted.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:24 am

Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?
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Williamsb747
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:25 am

oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?

The order has sort of been announced ,up to 12 A35Ks, a while back. But the final date for the order to be placed and slots to be secured is march the 31st.

Williams-
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:30 am

Williamsb747 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?

The order has sort of been announced ,up to 12 A35Ks, a while back. But the final date for the order to be placed and slots to be secured is march the 31st.

Williams-


No order has been announced, all they have done is chosen the preferred aircraft type
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:37 am

oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?


Considering the time to develop and to certify the modifications mentioned by Qantas in its press release, it is very likely they need to firm their order during the next six weeks.
They need to do it quickly if they want to start Project Sunrise operation in 2022.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:48 am

VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?


Considering the time to develop and to certify the modifications mentioned by Qantas in its press release, it is very likely they need to firm their order during the next six weeks.
They need to do it quickly if they want to start Project Sunrise operation in 2022.

I couldn’t read the press release on my phone but what were the modifications. I had thought as previously mentioned that it was a slight MTOW increase and the addition of 1or 2 acts. Looks like they are having to more now? Very odd.

Fred


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mjoelnir
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:12 am

VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?


Considering the time to develop and to certify the modifications mentioned by Qantas in its press release, it is very likely they need to firm their order during the next six weeks.
They need to do it quickly if they want to start Project Sunrise operation in 2022.


Even if there would be no development and certification work, the usual shortest time to build and deliver a frame in a certain configuration is 2 years. I hardly believe they will use a white tail for the Qantas configuration. So an order early this year, or no Project Sunrise flights in 2022.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:17 am

oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?


When QF announced they’d selected the A350 they said Airbus extended the deadline for selecting production slots until the end of March. So unless QF wants to miss their dates, they need to order before then.

flipdewaf wrote:
I had thought as previously mentioned that it was a slight MTOW increase and the addition of 1or 2 acts.


It is exactly that, but some try to make it sound like a bigger deal than it really is.

From the QF release - Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes.
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Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:26 am

qf789 wrote:
Williamsb747 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?

The order has sort of been announced ,up to 12 A35Ks, a while back. But the final date for the order to be placed and slots to be secured is march the 31st.

Williams-


No order has been announced, all they have done is chosen the preferred aircraft type


Which have to be ordered by March 31st. I would think that QF would not contemplate hiring 400 outside pilots if PS was not going ahead. Even if they are using it as a negotiating tool.

So technically and factually there is no order...you are correct. But I get a sense that QF do not desire to wait until deadline day to have all their ducks in a row.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:24 am

scbriml wrote:

flipdewaf wrote:
I had thought as previously mentioned that it was a slight MTOW increase and the addition of 1or 2 acts.


It is exactly that, but some try to make it sound like a bigger deal than it really is.

From the QF release - Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes.


Good job they didn’t order the 778 then as that needs a whole plane certifying, would take at least 10years.

Fred



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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:26 am

scbriml wrote:
Scotron12 wrote:
Just as a question: If QF did resort to hiring 400 pilots for PS, where would they come from and what training would be required?

As mentioned, 400 pilots are almost an airline on it's own.


Thanks to CoronaVirus, there are a lot of pilots out there looking for work. The timing is great for QF, less so for their current pilots.

Sadly, I must agree. Temporarily, the pilot shortage is paused. As a professional, I want other professionals well, but not unfairly, compensated. My carrier is portable. Pilots, due to seniority, less so.

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Qf648
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:55 am

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:

Qantas says that if it cannot reach a deal with AIPA, it will approach pilots directly and offer terms. According to a report published overnight in The Financial Review, Captains would receive an annual base salary of USD$265,400, first officers would receive USD$175,370 and second officers would receive USD$86,680.
...
One of the sticking points is the salary for second officers on Project Sunrise flights. Qantas wants to pay future second officers less than it will pay existing second officers. AIPA isn’t happy with this.



Gee at those rates the second officers can get more money driving a mining truck, and I'll chuck their flights in for free.
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:33 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
Any idea when QF announces that PS order for Airbus?


Considering the time to develop and to certify the modifications mentioned by Qantas in its press release, it is very likely they need to firm their order during the next six weeks.
They need to do it quickly if they want to start Project Sunrise operation in 2022.

I couldn’t read the press release on my phone but what were the modifications. I had thought as previously mentioned that it was a slight MTOW increase and the addition of 1or 2 acts. Looks like they are having to more now? Very odd
....


Define "slight MTOW increase".

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

The press realease says (emphasis added).
"Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes."

They add an additional fuel tank. It is not an Auxiliary Center Tank (ACT), but an additional tank. We do not know how it will be implemented (yet) and we do not know how much volume that additional tank will have.

I sincerely suspect they will have to do some serious engineering work.
In my opinion the timing for a start of service between Sydney and London in the first half of 2023 is very tight.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:33 pm

VV wrote:
Define "slight MTOW increase".

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

The press realease says (emphasis added).
"Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes."

They add an additional fuel tank. It is not an Auxiliary Center Tank (ACT), but an additional tank. We do not know how it will be implemented (yet) and we do not know how much volume that additional tank will have.

I sincerely suspect they will have to do some serious engineering work.
In my opinion the timing for a start of service between Sydney and London in the first half of 2023 is very tight.



Well the definition of slight increase is unclear, since the statement comes from QF.

My guess is that Airbus might already have a lot of the engineering work completed. They have the ULR A350s that SG uses as a blueprint.
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:55 pm

oschkosch wrote:
VV wrote:
Define "slight MTOW increase".

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

The press realease says (emphasis added).
"Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes."

They add an additional fuel tank. It is not an Auxiliary Center Tank (ACT), but an additional tank. We do not know how it will be implemented (yet) and we do not know how much volume that additional tank will have.

I sincerely suspect they will have to do some serious engineering work.
In my opinion the timing for a start of service between Sydney and London in the first half of 2023 is very tight.



Well the definition of slight increase is unclear, since the statement comes from QF.

My guess is that Airbus might already have a lot of the engineering work completed. They have the ULR A350s that SG uses as a blueprint.

Yes and no.

We do not know what the additional volume is. Depending on that volume the amount of engineering work can be quite different.

Although it is possible Airbus knows the required volume, it is still unclear how they would implemented it. Indeed on the A340-500 for Singapore there is a Rear Center Tank. However, I insist on the fact we do not know what the required fuel volume is. If the volume is huge then they may have to consider a slightly different solution.

In addition, the A340-500 has a metallic structure. Therefore Airbus needs to discuss with the regulators on a special condition for the said additional tank.

At this stage, I would say without any hesitation that an entry into service of SYD-LHR flight in first half of 2023 seems to be very optimistic.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:03 pm

VV wrote:
the A340-500


The A340-500??? Huh?



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flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:17 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:

Considering the time to develop and to certify the modifications mentioned by Qantas in its press release, it is very likely they need to firm their order during the next six weeks.
They need to do it quickly if they want to start Project Sunrise operation in 2022.

I couldn’t read the press release on my phone but what were the modifications. I had thought as previously mentioned that it was a slight MTOW increase and the addition of 1or 2 acts. Looks like they are having to more now? Very odd
....


Define "slight MTOW increase".

I believe I had seen 323t in a previous article so a little over 1%.
VV wrote:
https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

The press realease says (emphasis added).
"Airbus will add an additional fuel tank and slightly increase the maximum takeoff weight to deliver the performance required for Sunrise routes."

They add an additional fuel tank. It is not an Auxiliary Center Tank (ACT), but an additional tank.

Is an auxiliary centre tank not an additional extra fuel tank?

VV wrote:
We do not know how it will be implemented (yet) and we do not know how much volume that additional tank will have.

But we know it will take 2+ years to certificate?

VV wrote:

I sincerely suspect they will have to do some serious engineering work.

Sincerely suspect? I’m going to remember that phrase.

VV wrote:
In my opinion the timing for a start of service between Sydney and London in the first half of 2023 is very tight.
maybe, not sure what the delivery slots could/would be.

Im hoping there will be some proving type flights (even if they are with acts) in the near future.

Fred



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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:26 pm

An ACT is an additional tank, but not all additional tank is ACT.
That is exactly why it was called Rear Center Tank (RCT) on the A340-500 for SIA.
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:29 pm

oschkosch wrote:
VV wrote:
the A340-500


The A340-500??? Huh?
..

YES A340-500 !
https://www.flightglobal.com/faa-forces ... 48.article
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:51 pm

VV wrote:
An ACT is an additional tank, but not all additional tank is ACT.
That is exactly why it was called Rear Center Tank (RCT) on the A340-500 for SIA.

So if the article says additional fuel tank why are you assuming it isn’t and ACT?

Fred


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Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:07 pm

Qf648 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:




Gee at those rates the second officers can get more money driving a mining truck, and I'll chuck their flights in for free.


Yeah! Was curious myself so did some online looking. Seems payscales quoted seem to be in the ballpark. Of course these would increase depending on seniority within the airline and the individual concermed. Who Im sure would not want to be a 2nd Officer for ever.

Mention was made that the exceptions are ME carriers and China, where the salaries are higher as Im sure the benefits are too.

Got no clue what tbe benefits are for driving a mining truck..I think flying an A350 beats it! :D
 
majano
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:05 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Qf648 wrote:
Revelation wrote:



Gee at those rates the second officers can get more money driving a mining truck, and I'll chuck their flights in for free.


Yeah! Was curious myself so did some online looking. Seems payscales quoted seem to be in the ballpark. Of course these would increase depending on seniority within the airline and the individual concermed. Who Im sure would not want to be a 2nd Officer for ever.

Mention was made that the exceptions are ME carriers and China, where the salaries are higher as Im sure the benefits are too.

Got no clue what tbe benefits are for driving a mining truck..I think flying an A350 beats it! :D

Nowhere near USD86,000, that I can assure you. A-netters are famous for their ability to exaggerate.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:11 pm

VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
My guess is that Airbus might already have a lot of the engineering work completed. They have the ULR A350s that SG uses as a blueprint.

Yes and no.

We do not know what the additional volume is. Depending on that volume the amount of engineering work can be quite different.

Although it is possible Airbus knows the required volume, it is still unclear how they would implemented it. Indeed on the A340-500 for Singapore there is a Rear Center Tank. However, I insist on the fact we do not know what the required fuel volume is. If the volume is huge then they may have to consider a slightly different solution.

In addition, the A340-500 has a metallic structure. Therefore Airbus needs to discuss with the regulators on a special condition for the said additional tank.

At this stage, I would say without any hesitation that an entry into service of SYD-LHR flight in first half of 2023 seems to be very optimistic.

Safe to assume Airbus, RR and QF have a good idea of the fuel requirements, technical solutions and timings. At this stage, they haven't seen the need to disclose to, or obtain approval from users on this site.

The modifications can't be all that great, as some of the aircraft offered already exist.
 
VV
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:34 pm

smartplane wrote:
...

Safe to assume Airbus, RR and QF have a good idea of the fuel requirements, technical solutions and timings. At this stage, they haven't seen the need to disclose to, or obtain approval from users on this site.

The modifications can't be all that great, as some of the aircraft offered already exist.


I do hope you are right.

2023 is not too far anyway, so we will know relatively soon.
Let s meet again here in July 2023 to discuss about this case.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:50 pm

VV wrote:
smartplane wrote:
...

Safe to assume Airbus, RR and QF have a good idea of the fuel requirements, technical solutions and timings. At this stage, they haven't seen the need to disclose to, or obtain approval from users on this site.

The modifications can't be all that great, as some of the aircraft offered already exist.


I do hope you are right.

2023 is not too far anyway, so we will know relatively soon.
Let s meet again here in July 2023 to discuss about this case.


Why hope that he is right ? Airbus knows very well about a timeline, see the A350-900ULR
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8144
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:06 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.

Scotron12 wrote:
Gives a bit more detail on the economics for QF by going ahead.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-london- ... -approval/

One point of interest:

The UBS analysis and its revenue projections suggest Project Sunrise is viable and isn’t dependent on the outcome of a pay deal.

This suggests QF is using this opportunity to squeeze a concession out of the pilots, namely:

Qantas says that if it cannot reach a deal with AIPA, it will approach pilots directly and offer terms. According to a report published overnight in The Financial Review, Captains would receive an annual base salary of USD$265,400, first officers would receive USD$175,370 and second officers would receive USD$86,680.
...
One of the sticking points is the salary for second officers on Project Sunrise flights. Qantas wants to pay future second officers less than it will pay existing second officers. AIPA isn’t happy with this.

And:

zeke wrote:
They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect

... they have a track record of winning.

I guess the real question is if QF's pilots will decide if they should resort to strikes or not.


Those pay rates are terrible.


Note that's base salary only.

The "productivity concessions" that Qantas want relate to things such as overtime, trip payments etc (plus a B scalre for future Second Officers) so total compensation could end up being relatively close to those amounts but that isn't total compensation. Qantas A380 and 747 pilots earn a lot more than that in total compensation, the 787 pilots less so as they made concessions in 2016.

Also keep in mind that while quoted in USD, a captain's base salary would actually be AUD $395,000 (assuming the USD value quoted has been converted at current exchange rates). While Sydney is a horrendously expensive city to live in, and indeed cost of living in Australia is high across the board, ~$400,000 is undeniably a comfortable salary. Right now Qantas (and VA as well) are benefiting from a weak AUD making their labour costs more competitive on a global basis, but back in 2012 when the AUD was at ~USD $1.10 Qantas had the highest adjusted pilot costs in the world IIRC.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
VV
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:17 pm

oldJoe wrote:
VV wrote:
smartplane wrote:
...

Safe to assume Airbus, RR and QF have a good idea of the fuel requirements, technical solutions and timings. At this stage, they haven't seen the need to disclose to, or obtain approval from users on this site.

The modifications can't be all that great, as some of the aircraft offered already exist.


I do hope you are right.

2023 is not too far anyway, so we will know relatively soon.
Let s meet again here in July 2023 to discuss about this case.


Why hope that he is right ? Airbus knows very well about a timeline, see the A350-900ULR


You know that the A350-900 EIS was delayed just like the 787, right?
Or perhaps the A330neo too.

So yes, they know how to manage timelines.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1226
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:26 pm

[*]
VV wrote:
oldJoe wrote:
VV wrote:

I do hope you are right.

2023 is not too far anyway, so we will know relatively soon.
Let s meet again here in July 2023 to discuss about this case.


Why hope that he is right ? Airbus knows very well about a timeline, see the A350-900ULR


You know that the A350-900 EIS was delayed just like the 787, right?
Or perhaps the A330neo too.

So yes, they know how to manage timelines.

In the last 12 months, it seems as if the customer has been rather less decisive than the OEM's, though excellent timing now with the pilot contract, which may have ramifications beyond Sunrise.

With all that's going on in the World, lets see how quickly the customer executes a contract, before we roast the OEM.
 
VV
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:56 pm

According to the press release Qantas has to form the order in March 2020.
https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

Airbus has agreed to extend the deadline to confirm delivery slots from February 2020 to March 2020. This provides additional time to negotiate an industrial agreement without impacting the planned start date of Project Sunrise flights in the first half of calendar 2023.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14611
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:35 am

VV wrote:
According to the press release Qantas has to form the order in March 2020.
https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-sunrise/

Airbus has agreed to extend the deadline to confirm delivery slots from February 2020 to March 2020. This provides additional time to negotiate an industrial agreement without impacting the planned start date of Project Sunrise flights in the first half of calendar 2023.


If you do not have anything factual to add to this thread can you leave it go. The press release you keep referring to is dated "13TH DECEMBER 2019 AT 9:11", we discussed that press release to death on another thread that got locked.

Things have changed in the 2 months since. Hence this thread, we are discussing the project is going ahead, with or without their pilots being onside.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
qf2220
Posts: 1780
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:40 am

CriticalPoint wrote:

Those pay rates are terrible.


They are very good pay rates if your cost of living is in Australia. In AUD theyre about A$380k for Captains, A$250k for FO and A$124k for SO... All of those are quite above the cost of living here.
 
Charters737
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:59 am

Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:47 am

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
We are being told direct flight LHR-SYD is very attractive.

Actually we are being told LHR-SYD direct flights are only viable if passengers, airplane manufacturers and airline employees make financial concessions. Whether or not that is accurate is up for debate.

Scotron12 wrote:
Gives a bit more detail on the economics for QF by going ahead.

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-london- ... -approval/

One point of interest:

The UBS analysis and its revenue projections suggest Project Sunrise is viable and isn’t dependent on the outcome of a pay deal.

This suggests QF is using this opportunity to squeeze a concession out of the pilots, namely:

Qantas says that if it cannot reach a deal with AIPA, it will approach pilots directly and offer terms. According to a report published overnight in The Financial Review, Captains would receive an annual base salary of USD$265,400, first officers would receive USD$175,370 and second officers would receive USD$86,680.
...
One of the sticking points is the salary for second officers on Project Sunrise flights. Qantas wants to pay future second officers less than it will pay existing second officers. AIPA isn’t happy with this.

And:

zeke wrote:
They have a history of doing that, either buying smaller airlines and expanding them to remove flying from mainline, Impulse, Network, using contractors like Cobham, Atlas, starting new airlines like Australian, Qantas Freight, Jetconnect

... they have a track record of winning.

I guess the real question is if QF's pilots will decide if they should resort to strikes or not.
strikes don't work in a recession & with coronavirus having a long way to play out, there are now 1000s of pilots in Asia, getting no work & therefore no pay whatsoever.

It has very quickly turned from a worldwide shortage of pilots to a glut

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