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Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:20 am

qf789 wrote:
Qantas says 85% of pilots have voted in favour of EBA for Project Sunrise meaning that once all this stuff with Coronavirus settles down an order for the A350-1000's can be placed

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ng-flights


Im quite eager to see how the layout on their A350s will look like. They will also be one of the 1st carriers to feature all 4 classes on their A350s AFAIR??
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:26 am

Scotron12 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Qantas says 85% of pilots have voted in favour of EBA for Project Sunrise meaning that once all this stuff with Coronavirus settles down an order for the A350-1000's can be placed

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... ng-flights


Im quite eager to see how the layout on their A350s will look like. They will also be one of the 1st carriers to feature all 4 classes on their A350s AFAIR??



I totally agree with this and that is why they should firm the order as soon as possible, like now.

They need to start the cabin design and contact suppliers to develop and produce anything that is needed for the cabin. If there are novelties in the cabin they might also need to get them approved. It might take some time.

Or maybe they already decided they want to push the project farther to the right into 2024 or later.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:28 am

VV wrote:
Do you expect the situation to remain the same in 2023?

Who can tell? I can’t, you can’t. No responsible business is going to make commitments for several years in the future until the future is considerably more certain. Besides PS will be the absolute last thing on the QF board’s mind right now. And the markets would question whether they were actually on the same planet as the rest of us.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:40 am

DavidByrne wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you expect the situation to remain the same in 2023?

Who can tell? I can’t, you can’t. No responsible business is going to make commitments for several years in the future until the future is considerably more certain. Besides PS will be the absolute last thing on the QF board’s mind right now. And the markets would question whether they were actually on the same planet as the rest of us.


While I understand the future is NEVER certain I think a board's mind should also be about the future. THat's exactly why they are paid so well.

They have a bunch of executives to do the day-to-day job and also to perform tactical adjustment.

If they delay the order then there is a high likelihood the debut of the ultra-long-haul flights will be pushed further into 2024.

Or perhaps they think they would use standard A350-1000 to do normal routes and abandon ultra-long-haul ones? It is also a possibility that should be considered.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:58 am

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
...
They do not need to pay at the time they order, do they?
Don't they have some pre delivery payment left over from the cancelled 8 A380?

Because the market is not stable, businesses do not want to make large investment decisions without the clarity on future trading conditions. Imagine if they chose to commit 3bn in future capital and then the market didn’t materialise.

I’m sure this has been explained to you several times already in this thread on this exact subject, this isn’t your blog here, you can’t just delete comments that don’t agree with you and keep the same tropes going.

Trolling, troping or ignorance I can’t tell.


The market may be unstable, but they can still "firm" the order today.

What are you talking about? Why have you put firm in quotation marks? If firm is as sloppy and inform as you suggest then why would they firm it? If it’s so loose they can dump it whenever they like then why tie up funds at all, airbus will behave in a way that reflects the genuine commitment not what is reported on a.net.

VV wrote:
After all they can cancel it later on just like they did with the 8 A380 if the market does not improve in 2021.

Cancellation happens and Qantas already have the experience of cancelling an order (8 A380) when the business plan does not work out.

I am pretty sure everyone knows it.

People see the word cancel in rags an bad blags and read as taken, anyone who actually bothers to understand it knows it really means renegotiate the use of current funds being held. When someone else has your money, they have the one up in the argument.

I’m disappointed, your previous showing in lack of technical knowledge of the technical aspects of the civil aviation world had me hoping you were a business guy, seems that one is not there either.


https://verovenia.wordpress.com


Fred


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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:48 am

VV wrote:


I totally agree with this and that is why they should firm the order as soon as possible, like now.

They need to start the cabin design and contact suppliers to develop and produce anything that is needed for the cabin. If there are novelties in the cabin they might also need to get them approved. It might take some time.

Or maybe they already decided they want to push the project farther to the right into 2024 or later.


As I previously have posted, QF will make a determination about purchase once they know what the state of the industry is. Given that one of the target markets is the USA, which is now the greatest issue of concern, I suspect it will be a while before there is any news about a purchase order.

In terms of cabin design, I think you’ll find they are well and truly already down this path. I believe, from memory, it was an article in Executive Traveller, whereby Alan Joyce was quoted as saying, “You’ll find that the First product is something special and nothing we’ve done before”.

Whilst that statement is vague and uninformative, if I WERE to hazard a guess, I’d surmise that QF have created a “Suite” along the lines of SQ, EK, etc, but with something unique or not done by another carrier, so far.
Cheers,
C1973
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:21 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
...
As I previously have posted, QF will make a determination about purchase once they know what the state of the industry is. Given that one of the target markets is the USA, which is now the greatest issue of concern, I suspect it will be a while before there is any news about a purchase order.
...


Are you insinuating that the is a possibility Project Sunrise could be delayed or abandoned altogether???
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:25 am

VV wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
...
As I previously have posted, QF will make a determination about purchase once they know what the state of the industry is. Given that one of the target markets is the USA, which is now the greatest issue of concern, I suspect it will be a while before there is any news about a purchase order.
...


Are you insinuating that the is a possibility Project Sunrise could be delayed or abandoned altogether???


That's likely part of it. They also don't want to tie up cash when there is a distinct revenue shortage.

Fred
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:05 am

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
...
As I previously have posted, QF will make a determination about purchase once they know what the state of the industry is. Given that one of the target markets is the USA, which is now the greatest issue of concern, I suspect it will be a while before there is any news about a purchase order.
...


Are you insinuating that the is a possibility Project Sunrise could be delayed or abandoned altogether???


That's likely part of it. They also don't want to tie up cash when there is a distinct revenue shortage.


Do you think Airbus will proceed at risk to spend engineering hours and also start the design of A350-1000 additional fuel tank and the certification of higher MtOW, whatever it is???

If they proceed with the design and certification, how do you think about the budgeting of that activity? Do you think their managers would give a green light for this capital expenditure without the certainty the Project Sunrise would actually go ahead?
 
flipdewaf
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Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:45 am

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:

Are you insinuating that the is a possibility Project Sunrise could be delayed or abandoned altogether???


That's likely part of it. They also don't want to tie up cash when there is a distinct revenue shortage.


Do you think Airbus will proceed at risk to spend engineering hours and also start the design of A350-1000 additional fuel tank and the certification of higher MtOW, whatever it is???

Depends if they need to. It doesn’t appear to be the critical path for delivery of the aircraft, my understanding was that it was driven by production slot availability.
VV wrote:
If they proceed with the design and certification, how do you think about the budgeting of that activity? Do you think their managers would give a green light for this capital expenditure without the certainty the Project Sunrise would actually go ahead?
it depends on the above point of course but if it did become the critical path for the delivery time then it would be a decision that airbus would have to make. I don’t know if it would fall under capital expenditure for airbus and may well be covered by an already committed revenue type expenditure and as such have little effect of the cash commitments.

You need to stop with the provocative use of word like certainty. The game of tropification is bad on this website, it goes unnoticed by many but not myself.

Fred


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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:15 am

flipdewaf wrote:
....
Depends if they need to. It doesn’t appear to be the critical path for delivery of the aircraft, my understanding was that it was driven by production slot availability.
....


I hope you realize this order is for around 12 A350-1000 with first delivery in 2022/2023 out of a total order 200 for the entire A350-1000.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:28 am

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
....
Depends if they need to. It doesn’t appear to be the critical path for delivery of the aircraft, my understanding was that it was driven by production slot availability.
....


I hope you realize this order is for around 12 A350-1000 with first delivery in 2022/2023 out of a total order 200 for the entire A350-1000.


Yes, What's your point?

Fred
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:38 am

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
....
Depends if they need to. It doesn’t appear to be the critical path for delivery of the aircraft, my understanding was that it was driven by production slot availability.
....


I hope you realize this order is for around 12 A350-1000 with first delivery in 2022/2023 out of a total order 200 for the entire A350-1000.


Yes, What's your point?


Production slot issues? LOL.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:19 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:

I hope you realize this order is for around 12 A350-1000 with first delivery in 2022/2023 out of a total order 200 for the entire A350-1000.


Yes, What's your point?


Production slot issues? LOL.


No, production slot 'availability', please read the post before laughing. Whether or not that is an "issue" is entirely up to the individual. You may well want to take in to consideration that the A350-1000 shares its production line with the smaller, more popular sibling the A350-900nwhich currently has a backlog of 430+. You can laugh all you want, everyone else is laughing too....

Your trope regarding the additional fuel tanks and MTOW being a critical path issue has no evidence to back it up. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Fred
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:24 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
...
No, production slot 'availability',
...


In 2022/2023? Interesting.

You know a lot.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:07 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
...
No, production slot 'availability',
...


In 2022/2023? Interesting.

You know a lot.


Yes, I should have said delivery slot availability. One could argue that its effectively an irrelevant difference but if it makes you feel better more power to you.

See: https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/qan ... 74.article

As we move closer to the time it may be that the slots are filled by others or they are still open.
It may be that they remain open but the long lead time items need to manufactured and so then cannot be filled in any way, I would imagine in this scenario that there is some who can bump up the list if they so wish.
It could be that the critical path does indeed move to design and certification timescales for the specific aircraft mods, I have yet to see anything on this though and seeing as the ACT is already a designed item and someone intimate with the fuel systems of the A350 has already stated there are relatively easy places to "plumb in" the ACTs as well as knowledge on how weight increases work with regards to taking up the margins from previous models and airbus' previous experience with this jet in increasing the available MTOW it would strike me as a well understood low risk engineering exercise.

Right now however the critical path (for QF) appears to reside in the guaranteed slot availability however market uncertainty and available cash going forward is a good reason not to make financial commitments for the foreseeable.

I don't know a lot. I know enough and I know how to use google. What I dont do is pretend to know when I don't and silence those who I disagree with.

Fred
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:49 pm

Didn't someone say that there could potentially a lot of deferrals and cancellations?

Didn't someone say that the situation is not clear from widebody delivery perspective?

Didn't someone say above there is an uncertainty on many things and thus it means any past communication could be invalid?

You seem to know a lot in this period of uncertainty.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:09 pm

VV wrote:
Didn't someone say that there could potentially a lot of deferrals and cancellations?

Yes, why are QF absolved from the same drivers?
VV wrote:
Didn't someone say that the situation is not clear from widebody delivery perspective?

Absolutely, including those from QF.
VV wrote:
Didn't someone say above there is an uncertainty on many things and thus it means any past communication could be invalid?

Kind of but I'd appreciate it if you didn't mix absolutes and partials in the same sentence, it removes clarity from your statement, like sex panther.

Some of the communications are invalid others not. The market challenges do not affect the technical challenges in the same way that the value of the dollar doesn't make Einstein wrong.
VV wrote:
You seem to know a lot in this period of uncertainty.

I think the only thing I have claimed to actually know is that during uncertain times businesses are less willing to make decisions that could impact future cash availability. It's hard when you can't just delete peoples posts you don't agree with isn't it...

Fred.
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:21 pm

Okay.

So I ask a direct question.

Do you think the debut of ultra-long-range flights with Project Sunrise will happen in 2023?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:24 pm

VV wrote:
Okay.

So I ask a direct question.

Do you think the debut of ultra-long-range flights with Project Sunrise will happen in 2023?


I don't know but that's hardly surprising because it seems that neither do QF right now, hence the lack of a decision.

Fred
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VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:55 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
Okay.

So I ask a direct question.

Do you think the debut of ultra-long-range flights with Project Sunrise will happen in 2023?


I don't know but that's hardly surprising because it seems that neither do QF right now, hence the lack of a decision.



Do you think Airbus would start the spending to design and produce the additional fuel tank and to start the work on MTOW increase without any certainty Qantas would take the aircraft?
 
Scotron12
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:05 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:
Okay.

So I ask a direct question.

Do you think the debut of ultra-long-range flights with Project Sunrise will happen in 2023?


I don't know but that's hardly surprising because it seems that neither do QF right now, hence the lack of a decision.



Do you think Airbus would start the spending to design and produce the additional fuel tank and to start the work on MTOW increase without any certainty Qantas would take the aircraft?


It's pure guess work. All we know is that Airbus and QF have agreed a delay to the firming of the A350 order. That's it.

All the other pieces are all coming together. QF will see how this pandemic pans out. When there is a clearer picture they will decide.

I am making the assumpton that QF and Airbus have agreed that Airbus can build and deliver the frames within a timescale to begin PS in 2023.

If the start of PS is later, it's no big deal.
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:17 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:

Do you think Airbus would start the spending to design and produce the additional fuel tank and to start the work on MTOW increase without any certainty Qantas would take the aircraft?


I don't know.

The assumption in the question of course being that it hasn't started, in fact I would be very surprised if work hasn't started as airbus would have had to have done some at least preliminary feasibility design work for submission to the sunrise competition. The LD3 based ACT being already an off the shelf part for airbus, the additional work being to integrate that part correctly. They may already have completed the design work and/or the additional analysis required for the increased MTOW already complete, the work being based around understanding error margin already in components and the the outstanding work being the submission of these to the relevant authorities for review/approval which would involve a discretionary cash spend.

But you already know all that and so I can only assume you are trolling.


Do I?

You are so sure the modification on the A350-1000 is not in the critical path for an entry into service of the ultra-long-haul flights for Project Sunrise.
How long do you think it would take to design, develop and certify both the additional tank and the increased MTOW (whatever it is)?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:42 pm

VV wrote:
Okay.

So I ask a direct question.

Do you think the debut of ultra-long-range flights with Project Sunrise will happen in 2023?


I don't know about 2023 specifically, but I believe this crisis could boost the project. Remember how many Asian countries started shutting down airports at the start of the shutdown. In many ways, this is what brought flights to a standstill. You can still fly from many European countries, there just aren't any flights left. The ability to go direct to Europe will allow Qantas to circumvent that issue. Coronavirus is likely to hang around for a few years, so could still shut down entire regions for periods.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:53 pm

VV wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
VV wrote:

Do you think Airbus would start the spending to design and produce the additional fuel tank and to start the work on MTOW increase without any certainty Qantas would take the aircraft?


I don't know.

The assumption in the question of course being that it hasn't started, in fact I would be very surprised if work hasn't started as airbus would have had to have done some at least preliminary feasibility design work for submission to the sunrise competition. The LD3 based ACT being already an off the shelf part for airbus, the additional work being to integrate that part correctly. They may already have completed the design work and/or the additional analysis required for the increased MTOW already complete, the work being based around understanding error margin already in components and the the outstanding work being the submission of these to the relevant authorities for review/approval which would involve a discretionary cash spend.

But you already know all that and so I can only assume you are trolling.


Do I?

You are so sure the modification on the A350-1000 is not in the critical path for an entry into service of the ultra-long-haul flights for Project Sunrise.
How long do you think it would take to design, develop and certify both the additional tank and the increased MTOW (whatever it is)?

Tank is certified.
Added plumbing, a year to 18 months.

The long lead item is the increased MTOW. As the A350-1000 would sell better with more payload at range for other customers, I would assume Airbus remains on track for that PiP.

The integration of the existing tank into the fuel system is a low cost PiP. That has been done so routinely that the effort isn't of concern. It is when accompanied by significant wiring changes, as in the various A321s, that it is a long drawn out effort.

Lightsaber
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atcsundevil
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:55 pm

Please keep the thread on topic. Some of the discussion is going around in circles, so there's no need to be pedantic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:12 pm

VV wrote:
Chipmunk1973 wrote:
...
As I previously have posted, QF will make a determination about purchase once they know what the state of the industry is. Given that one of the target markets is the USA, which is now the greatest issue of concern, I suspect it will be a while before there is any news about a purchase order.
...


Are you insinuating that the is a possibility Project Sunrise could be delayed or abandoned altogether???


No, that I never stated whatsoever. At this point in time, QF are not operating any international flights, domestic capacity is massively reduced, and even though they’ve stood down a large part of their workforce, they will be still incurring costs and are likely to be cash flow negative.

One of their key target markets, New York, is now in a grave situation with COVID19 and it will be sometime before the situation stabilises.

So given the financial and medical situations, do you think it prudent for any airline business to be committing the best part of US$3B on an aircraft purchase at this point in time?

Realistically, we’re not going to see much in the way of international air travel in the next 3 months, minimum. At best, we may see some recovery start in 4 to 6 months. But this will be determined by both the management of viral infections as well as the global economy. People out of work and bankrupt businesses will not be flying.

QF may very well be flying PS routes in 2023/2024 but the decision to commit to that is a decision that cannot be made at this point in time. The October to December timeframe to make that decision is not that far off in the scheme of things to be making a much better calculated decision.
Cheers,
C1973
 
DavidByrne
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:53 pm

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
Realistically, we’re not going to see much in the way of international air travel in the next 3 months, minimum. At best, we may see some recovery start in 4 to 6 months. But this will be determined by both the management of viral infections as well as the global economy. People out of work and bankrupt businesses will not be flying.

Agree. The NZ Prime Minister yesterday stated that it was likely the airline industry would be in a serious trough for even longer than that (12-18 months was her "prediction"). She foresaw that a huge issue for international travel would be that many countries would be very wary of opening their borders to tourists until there was a vaccine available. And no one is going to be a tourist if there's a chance that they may have to go into a two-week quarantine period at the end of the flight both outgoing and incoming, which is the case in many places.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:49 pm

Given that this is 3 years out, I do see this as being workable by then, hopefully by the start of the Northern Winter 2023 schedule for SYD-JFK, which will require at least 3-4 frames to start. (I also see SYD-LAX and MEL-LAX being flown with these planes, in down-sizing operations to all twinjets, likely also converting SIN service to terminator). That said, is AKL-EWR likely to be canceled or postponed?
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:12 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That said, is AKL-EWR likely to be canceled or postponed?

Almost certain to be postponed. New Zealand's prime minister has stated that international travel restrictions are expected to last much longer than the current domestic restrictions, and Air New Zealand's CEO has said that Air New Zealand is going to emerge from this crisis as a primarily domestic operation with a handful of international routes to keep supply lines open. How long that lasts for before Air New Zealand is able to resume something resembling its February 2020 international operation will really depend on how long it takes the virus to be contained and the global economy to recover for the current shock. Both of these are really unknown quantities right now. I think it is fair to say the same considerations will apply to Qantas's international flying, and therefore Project Sunrise.

V/F
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mercure1
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:27 am

Joyce says QF has put Project Sunrise on "hold".
Wont order A350-1000 in short term


https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... 50-on-hold
mercure f-wtcc
 
Jefford717
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:37 am

Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:58 am

mercure1 wrote:
Joyce says QF has put Project Sunrise on "hold".
Wont order A350-1000 in short term


https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... 50-on-hold

Some people are going to feel very vexed by this I think.

I wonder how long it will be before Qantas brings it back off hold and pursues it again.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
PJ01
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 5:07 am

Depends how well demand comes back once the world starts to open up again i'd say. If demand comes back fairly quickly, i'd say it'll be taken off hold fairly swiftly. If demand is sluggish, i'd say Sunrise will sit in the desk drawer for a bit longer. A real pity though, I was greatly looking forward to these flights starting!
 
moa999
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 5:11 am

I think it will be desk draw for the next CEO.
A 350neo would need less compromises to make it work.

Meanwhile wouldn't be surprised to see 787s operating SYD-DRW-LHR with a splash'n'go
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 7:13 am

moa999 wrote:
Meanwhile wouldn't be surprised to see 787s operating SYD-DRW-LHR with a splash'n'go

Why? Is there some unaddressed demand from DRW that QF is losing due to aversion to backtracking?

Otherwise, what tangible advantage does that give them over the likes of SYD-PER-LHR (yes I'm aware it's somewhat shorter) or SYD-SIN-LHR?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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scbriml
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 7:27 am

Jefford717 wrote:
Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.


Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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zeke
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 7:41 am

LAX772LR wrote:
moa999 wrote:
Meanwhile wouldn't be surprised to see 787s operating SYD-DRW-LHR with a splash'n'go

Why? Is there some unaddressed demand from DRW that QF is losing due to aversion to backtracking?

Otherwise, what tangible advantage does that give them over the likes of SYD-PER-LHR (yes I'm aware it's somewhat shorter) or SYD-SIN-LHR?


DRW due to its remote location and usually only has narrow body services and lacks regular belly cargo space. A WB on SYD-DRW could be packed with freight for the short leg then fuelled up smartly at DRW due to its low congestion compared to PER and be on its way. Also PER-Europe routes depend on the middle east being open, where from DRW they have three routes, Middle East, Afghanistan, or via China.

DRW also has KTR nearby which is a good alternate, PER lacks a good nearby alternate.
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calstanford
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 11:43 am

This whole "Project Sunrise" was an Alan Joyce PR farce since Day 1.
Lots of talk. Never an order. If he really wanted this to happen he could have ordered planes two years ago.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 11:54 am

Does this mean that the 778 might be in the running again? It's likely that the 778 is in production when (if) project Sunrise resumes.

The whole thing could start over in a couple of years.
 
cpd
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:10 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Does this mean that the 778 might be in the running again? It's likely that the 778 is in production when (if) project Sunrise resumes.

The whole thing could start over in a couple of years.


Doubtful. Unless the 777-8 is somehow redesigned with unobtainium materials and technology, the result will probably be the same as before.
 
marcelh
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:21 pm

calstanford wrote:
This whole "Project Sunrise" was an Alan Joyce PR farce since Day 1.
Lots of talk. Never an order. If he really wanted this to happen he could have ordered planes two years ago.

Without COVID-19 those planes would have been ordered by now.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.


Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.


That large time difference also means when flying for a business trip recovering at both ends before optimally sleeping well or thinking well - upwards of two days lost.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Jefford717
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:51 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.


Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.


That large time difference also means when flying for a business trip recovering at both ends before optimally sleeping well or thinking well - upwards of two days lost.


I was gonna say the same thing. Waking up in the middle of the night for video/voice conference much for ideal than traveling and adjusting to local time on the other side of the globe.

But don’t get me wrong biz pax will eventually return to 2019 level and grow, however, it will take slightly bit longer than leisure pax assuming COVID is eradicated or vaccine is available by the end of 2020
 
Jefford717
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 1:59 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.


That large time difference also means when flying for a business trip recovering at both ends before optimally sleeping well or thinking well - upwards of two days lost.


I was gonna say the same thing. Waking up in the middle of the night for video/voice conference is much for ideal than traveling and adjusting to local time on the other side of the globe. Obviously, there are limitations of over the web conference that requires biz pax to travel in person such as privacy. The point I’m trying to get across is that company has now come to realization (as a result of covid) that business meeting is somewhat non essential.

But don’t get me wrong biz pax will eventually return to 2019 level and grow, however, it will take slightly bit longer than leisure pax assuming COVID is eradicated or vaccine is available by the end of 2020
 
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scbriml
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 2:15 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.


Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.


That large time difference also means when flying for a business trip recovering at both ends before optimally sleeping well or thinking well - upwards of two days lost.


True, but for big and/or important stuff, that's just part of the cost of doing business.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 6:02 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
Joyce says QF has put Project Sunrise on "hold".
Wont order A350-1000 in short term


https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... 50-on-hold

Some people are going to feel very vexed by this I think.

I wonder how long it will be before Qantas brings it back off hold and pursues it again.

V/F


People are saying possibly 2027-2028 time period due to the current COVID-19 crisis but that isn't official.

https://aviationnews.online/2020/05/05/ ... t-sunrise/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2091
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 7:43 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Leisure travelers will eventually come back but business travelers might take a little longer. This Covid crisis is a strong evidence that over the web conference is as good as in person.


Specifically in the case of PS - video or voice conferencing is far from ideal when you've got such a large time difference.


That large time difference also means when flying for a business trip recovering at both ends before optimally sleeping well or thinking well - upwards of two days lost.


On my business trips to Guam from Seattle. 17 hours from takeoff to landing in Guam (3 hour layover in Tokyo), leave 12:35 PM from SEA on Monday, arrive 2 AM on WED, flying home takes 17 hours also but gain a day back. I can work the WED I arrive but with 4 hours of sleep, coming back messed up for a few days after in zombieland. Conference call is easy to schedule (Guam is 17 hrs ahead, or 7 behind) set up for 4 PM Pacific is 9 AM in Guam. Photos of the construction can be sent, etc by email. Able to handle the project from initial design to end of construction with 3 site visits: initial design, walk thru with bidders, and final walk of the project. For same size project in 2009 would have had 5 trips each 6 days portal to portal, 3 actual on site. Now 3 of 5 days portal to portal. 2 less flights and 11 less days booked in the hotel and with rental car.

I suspect PS is now delayed enough that a newer plane will be available.
 
moa999
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Tue May 05, 2020 10:58 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
moa999 wrote:
Meanwhile wouldn't be surprised to see 787s operating SYD-DRW-LHR with a splash'n'go

Why? Is there some unaddressed demand from DRW that QF is losing


Splash'n'go = fuel only. No passengers on or off (possibly crew depending on contract).
Exactly as QF1/2 operated when SIN was closed using A380.

Advantage in the Covid world is you avoid having to transit at other airports which reduces risk. You can do it with existing aircraft and will still be reducing journey times versus other alternatives.
 
VV
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Re: Project Sunrise Approved - Pilot Agreement or Not

Sun May 10, 2020 3:27 pm

So the Project Sunrise is postponed.

That is good because now Airbus has the necessary time to design, manufacture and certify the aircraft as needed by the project.

It is unfortunate Qantas did not specify a date for another review of the project.
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