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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:09 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Can we contain this to one thread and not two on the same subject

I agree.

Here is the link to the KLM 737 replacement thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1434611&start=500
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:07 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Can we contain this to one thread and not two on the same subject


How about putting an end to annoying megathreads for once?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:41 pm

While up gauging short-haul flights is very important, KLM should definitely consider A321XLR to open up thin long haul routes.
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ltbewr
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:16 pm

There could be some Dutch, EU and AF politics involved too. Likely some parts are made in the Netherlands providing jobs. The Dutch politicians would rather support EU companies on all levels and jobs over the USA. Ownership partner AF is based in EU country France as is Airbus. Then there is the lager political, trade with the USA, financial issues, a growing distrust for Boeing with the 737MAX and other so on. It would also mean going with the 320 series a much newer base aircraft vs. the 60+ year old 737 base design.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:17 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
We had a very recent thread on the KLM 737-replacement. Why a new one?

Because it’s a separate conversation and not all of us have time to wade through six pages of replies
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:41 pm

ltbewr wrote:
There could be some Dutch, EU and AF politics involved too. Likely some parts are made in the Netherlands providing jobs. The Dutch politicians would rather support EU companies on all levels and jobs over the USA. Ownership partner AF is based in EU country France as is Airbus. Then there is the lager political, trade with the USA, financial issues, a growing distrust for Boeing with the 737MAX and other so on. It would also mean going with the 320 series a much newer base aircraft vs. the 60+ year old 737 base design.

I agree with you.

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MIflyer12
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:33 pm

cedarjet wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
We had a very recent thread on the KLM 737-replacement. Why a new one?

Because it’s a separate conversation and not all of us have time to wade through six pages of replies


It isn't, really (it seldom is - it's just the repetitive Airbus good, Boeing bad, stream with little new objective information), and now you're just going to get six pages of the same replies.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
We had a very recent thread on the KLM 737-replacement. Why a new one?

Because it’s a separate conversation and not all of us have time to wade through six pages of replies


It isn't, really (it seldom is), and now you're just going to get six pages of the same replies.

And I think @Keesje’s thread has more ‘traffic’, and more people subscribed to it. I could be wrong.
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Flanker7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Can we contain this to one thread and not two on the same subject


How about putting an end to annoying megathreads for once?

Even better.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:39 pm

scbriml wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.


Yes, but KLM is a relatively small airline.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?


How long would KLM have to wait if they ordered MAXes tomorrow? Leeham’s recent article suggests it will take years for Boeing to ‘catch up’ with its delivery schedule.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/14/boein ... -analysis/

Both A and B backlogs have many leasing companies in them so that's always an option.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:43 pm

SteelChair wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That would make sense to dump the Boeinga and align with the AF fleet. They could trade aircraft as capacity demands change.


Something tells me the pilots unions would go berserk if such a thing were ever even suggested, let alone attempted.


Why do you think so? Are the pilot unions so attached to Boeing? And if so, why?
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
Both A and B backlogs have many leasing companies in them so that's always an option.

In my opinion the only way to replace the 73G fleet is to lease new aircraft (neo or maybe even MAX) because KLM plans to have all 73Gs phased out by 2022. But they will need to replace 16 aircraft, and hopefully KLM can find a leasing company that has let’s say 16 A321neos.

@spinotter: I was also wondering about that, but I don’t think the pilot unions are so attached to Boeing. If they were I think they’d fight against KLM because of the A330s in their fleet.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:39 pm

spinotter wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That would make sense to dump the Boeinga and align with the AF fleet. They could trade aircraft as capacity demands change.


Something tells me the pilots unions would go berserk if such a thing were ever even suggested, let alone attempted.


Why do you think so? Are the pilot unions so attached to Boeing? And if so, why?


He meant the pilots would object to my idea of shuffling airplanes between AF and KLM as capacity demands between the two carriers change throughout the year.
 
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spinotter
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
spinotter wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Something tells me the pilots unions would go berserk if such a thing were ever even suggested, let alone attempted.


Why do you think so? Are the pilot unions so attached to Boeing? And if so, why?


He meant the pilots would object to my idea of shuffling airplanes between AF and KLM as capacity demands between the two carriers change throughout the year.


So they would rather have inefficiencies of scale, meaning it would be more profitable for each of the pilots individually, rather than having at least a portion of the resultant profits at least partially applied to the corporation?
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:03 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The Dutch politicians would rather support EU companies on all levels and jobs over the USA. Ownership partner AF is based in EU country France as is Airbus.
Younreally have no clue about Dutch politicians, do you?

US politicians might interfere to push companies to “buy domestic”, Dutch politicians are not likely to do so except perhaps for some fringe parties.

One need only look at the Royal Netherlands Air Force to see how much “buy Dutch/buy European” matters to our politicians.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:57 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
If me may believe Pieter Elbers, CEO of KLM, the Dutch carrier might be poised to order some A321 aircraft.

KLM is considering switching to Boeing's competitor Airbus for the European short haul fleet. That is what KLM CEO Pieter Elbers said in Charleston last week, when the airline received its 18th Boeing 787 Dreamliner. A remarkable statement, because KLM recently ordered most aircraft from Boeing.

"We have faith in the MAX's return, but at the same time we are also looking at the Airbus A321, given the uncertainty surrounding the MAX," says KLM's CEO Pieter Elbers, who committed himself to Boeing less than a year ago for the long haul fleet. In June, KLM decided to exchange orders for the A350 with Air France for the Boeing 787. "I don't know when the MAX will return, but I think Toulouse is certainly interested in a possible KLM order."


Dutch story https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/122 ... ing-crisis

As far as I know, the text that is in bold is not correct.

As far as I know, AF-KL changed it because AF has more old, high-capacity planes, and AF started their A380 retirement. The A350 has more capacity than the Dreamliner, and KLM chose the 777-300ER as the 747 replacement, and KLMs 777s are not that old. KLM even ordered 2 777-300ERs last year. https://simpleflying.com/klm-boeing-777-order/

KLM didn’t decide, the group decided. At least that’s what I’ve heard.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:41 pm

Would be interesting to see the A321 in the colors of our KLM, but I still think it is a very long shot. More likely that this is a negotiation tactic with Boeing. Perhaps they are seeking some of the early slots, freed up by cancelations?
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:29 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
The AF-KL group orders aircraft, not KL itself. The AF-KL group also decides which aircraft types they order and which aircraft type goes to which airline.

Incorrect. The 787 and A350 orders were made by the group, but KL still made many other small orders itself (all recent 777, 737 and E-Jets).
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:38 pm

Jetty wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
The AF-KL group orders aircraft, not KL itself. The AF-KL group also decides which aircraft types they order and which aircraft type goes to which airline.

Incorrect. The 787 and A350 orders were made by the group, but KL still made many other small orders itself (all recent 777, 737 and E-Jets).

Thanks for the information. If I understand correctly, this is what mostly happens: only big orders like narrowbody replacements are on a group level. And small orders, like KLM’s order for 2 777s, are made by the airlines.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:02 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money

Airbus typically adds type ratings to each plane they offer an airline to replace other type ratings.


Plus, who's to say that the 737 MAX gets to keep their same rating with the NG once the grounding is lifted.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:16 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money

Airbus typically adds type ratings to each plane they offer an airline to replace other type ratings.


Plus, who's to say that the 737 MAX gets to keep their same rating with the NG once the grounding is lifted.

That’s true, but doesn't Airbus give type ratings to new customers for free? Or did I misunderstand @inkjet7?
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:27 pm

So the guy is at Boeing and speaks these words about that they consider an Airbus order. I would do the same. I can’t judge how serious they are “considering”.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:00 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Jetty wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
The AF-KL group orders aircraft, not KL itself. The AF-KL group also decides which aircraft types they order and which aircraft type goes to which airline.

Incorrect. The 787 and A350 orders were made by the group, but KL still made many other small orders itself (all recent 777, 737 and E-Jets).

Thanks for the information. If I understand correctly, this is what mostly happens: only big orders like narrowbody replacements are on a group level. And small orders, like KLM’s order for 2 777s, are made by the airlines.

To maximise the value and timing benefits of retrospective credits worth hundreds of millions of Euros over the next decade, irrespective of public perception, all orders are ultimately inked (placed) by the Group.

Similar at IAG. And EK / FZ (ultimate parent Govt, delegate to Emirates Group).

You can obtain delivery priority if you package an NB order with WB, so A320 / A220 order must be on the cards for FZ, subject to how much MAX compensation in the form of retrospective credits Boeing is willing to add to the EK X and 787 orders. Ditto for KLM - may keep MAX order, and take more credits on MAX and 787.
Last edited by smartplane on Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:00 pm

airbuster wrote:
So the guy is at Boeing and speaks these words about that they consider an Airbus order. I would do the same. I can’t judge how serious they are “considering”.

The article isn’t clear about where Elbers was in my opinion when he mentioned they were considering switching to Airbus for the European fleet.

I think that the 787 talks were at Boeing, but I don’t think the Airbus talks were at Boeing.

If the Airbus talks were at Boeing... it would be very weird in my opinion.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:16 am

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
airbuster wrote:
So the guy is at Boeing and speaks these words about that they consider an Airbus order. I would do the same. I can’t judge how serious they are “considering”.

The article isn’t clear about where Elbers was in my opinion when he mentioned they were considering switching to Airbus for the European fleet.

I think that the 787 talks were at Boeing, but I don’t think the Airbus talks were at Boeing.

If the Airbus talks were at Boeing... it would be very weird in my opinion.


He was in Charleston last week to pick up a new 787. From
What I heard it was said at that moment.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:25 am

But switching, he is talking about adding the A321. That makes full sense since Boeing doesn't have anything that presently competes with it.
I dont see this as him switching the full fleet from Boeing to Airbus when it comes to narrow-bodies.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see some common sense and see KLM acquire say 20 A321. I see that as a rational move based on capabilities and plane offerings and not something based on politics or gamesmanship.
As far as I heard, the price that Boeing has been offering their larger variants of the MAX family has been very advantageous and if Boeing stalwarts such as KL still prefers the A321, Id say that is a testament to how uncompetitive, for KL missions, the larger MAXs are against the A321 NEO.
I dont see him talking about going for the A320NEO though so the standard MAX (whenever it might return to the skies) seems to hold its own against the NEO in the eyes of KL.
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A388
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:48 am

hooverman wrote:
What newspaper is reliable these days? They all have their political agenda.
Anyway it's a direct quote from Elbers so there is not any reason to think it's not reliable.


True but there are different levels of reliability.

Even if this is true, it is probably KLM's attempt at getting a better MAX deal from Boeing.

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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:38 am

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
That’s true, but doesn't Airbus give type ratings to new customers for free? Or did I misunderstand @inkjet7?

Well, nothing is for free. Type ratings are included in the deal.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:47 am

Plus, you also have to consider that rumours are circulating about KLM phasing out their A330's
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:23 am

Just like many of us have already said (or were thinking), it would be foolish for KLM to pass on the A321. It would’ve been a different story if Boeing had given the market a proper 737 replacement by now or in the near future, but we all know what we ended up with.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:26 am

asr0dzjq wrote:
Plus, you also have to consider that rumours are circulating about KLM phasing out their A330's


Not rumor but fact.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:07 am

MillwallSean wrote:

But I wouldn't be surprised to see some common sense and see KLM acquire say 20 A321.


For growth or as a replacement? AMS is politically capped at 500.000 slots, with no relief if sight. So 20 321s for growth only is impossible for at least the near future. And as a replacement for what? The 330s? That would be a serious downgauge and less range. Or do you mean the 737?
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:13 am

MillwallSean wrote:
But switching, he is talking about adding the A321.

In my opinion that’s not true, because this article: https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/122 ... ing-crisis says the following:
Luchtvaartmaatschappij KLM overweegt naar Boeings concurrent Airbus over te stappen voor de Europese vloot.


And that translates to:
Airline KLM is considering switching to Boeing's competitor Airbus for the European fleet.


He is very clearly talking about considering switching. And another way that I can tell you it’s switching and not adding: KLM has plans to reduce cockpits, and if they would add the neo, it would be against the plans to reduce cockpits.

Adding 20 32Qs for growth is impossible, but replacing 20 737s with 20 32Qs is in my opinion the only thing KLM could do if they would order 20 32Qs.

If KLM would order 20 32Qs, I think they would use them to replace the 73G fleet and to replace 4 739s. And I’m also wondering if 20 aircraft is enough.
Last edited by FlyingBlueKLM on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:14 am

spinotter wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Why do you think so? Are the pilot unions so attached to Boeing? And if so, why?


He meant the pilots would object to my idea of shuffling airplanes between AF and KLM as capacity demands between the two carriers change throughout the year.


So they would rather have inefficiencies of scale, meaning it would be more profitable for each of the pilots individually, rather than having at least a portion of the resultant profits at least partially applied to the corporation?


That's capitalism! Applied selfishness. Not that I would blame them: companies do exactly the same towards their staff...
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:19 am

76er wrote:
With AMS on lockdown because of the slot fiasco, KL simply has no room to open up new routes that are specifically tailored to the XLR. And from the looks of it, the environmentalists and NIMBY’s seem to be winning the war here in the Low Countries. So prospects for the XLR in KLM-blue are not very bright at the moment.


This isn't about the XLR, it's about the regular A321NEO. It's also not about opening up new routes, it's about continuation of their existing routes. One day the 737s will be written off and they'll need some replacement aircraft. That's why they're looking at the A321.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:28 am

I understand that. My reply was to Raylee67 who specifically mentioned the XLR.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:13 pm

Does it make sense for KL to deploy larger narrow bodies so that they can overcome the slot lockdown at AMS? Some destinations can be served with reduced frequencies and this may free up slots for new routes.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:43 pm

flee wrote:
Does it make sense for KL to deploy larger narrow bodies so that they can overcome the slot lockdown at AMS?

I think so.

flee wrote:
Some destinations can be served with reduced frequencies and this may free up slots for new routes.

I don’t see a reason why KLM would want that. At least in my opinion, it’s about continuation of their existing routes, not about opening up new routes. Reducing frequencies, even if it is at some destinations, is bad for business travellers, and it could also be bad for holidaymakers.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:00 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
My two cents:
* KLM will get MAX's, because Boeing will give them away for 'free' once the whole grounding drama is over.
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money
* And AF pilots will probably go on strike if the A320 fleet of KL is younger than theirs :mrgreen:


yep i agree KLM made a big deal about making the fleet all boeing about 2 or 3 years ago. of course there going to try to get a better deal
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:04 pm

n5u wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
My two cents:
* KLM will get MAX's, because Boeing will give them away for 'free' once the whole grounding drama is over.
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money
* And AF pilots will probably go on strike if the A320 fleet of KL is younger than theirs :mrgreen:


yep i agree KLM made a big deal about making the fleet all boeing about 2 or 3 years ago. of course there going to try to get a better deal

@n5u, times have changed. 2 or 3 years ago I would agree that KLM would get the MAX, but now, AF-KL has a new CEO, Ben Smith, and in my opinion it looks like Ben Smith wants to simplify things. My opinion is that KL and AF will go neo, and that HV and TO will go MAX. And I never heard Pieter Elbers say that he wants an all-Boeing fleet, but I have heard that Pieter Elbers said KLM is considering switching to Airbus for the European fleet. I haven’t heard Ben Smith say exactly: KL and AF will use neo, and HV and TO will use MAX.

I’m not defending Airbus, and I’m not defending Boeing. I’m just giving my opinion.

I could be wrong on this, but remember, this are all just opinions right now. AF-KL hasn’t ordered new A320ceo/737NG replacement aircraft yet.



TTailedTiger wrote:
That would make sense to dump the Boeinga and align with the AF fleet. They could trade aircraft as capacity demands change.

I agree with you. But Airbus for the European fleet and Boeing for the long-haul fleet at KLM is also an option.

PepeTheFrog wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?


There is no alternative. In the same article, Elbers says if KLM would order the MAX, they will be put at the end of Boeing's 4,900 aircraft backlog. And the MAX production will be running 3 to 4 years behind schedule due to the grounding.

@PepeTheFrog are you saying that the MAX isn’t an option for KLM? Is it correct that if KLM would order 32Qs that they would also be put on the end of the backlog? If I’m correct the MAX is sold out until 2028. @MIflyer12 is that also true for the A321neo?
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:22 pm

To my understanding the “all Boeing” statement that keeps returning is about the wide body fleet. They want 1 common type on long haul. Thus 777/787.

The european narrow body fleet is a different story.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:39 pm

airbuster wrote:
To my understanding the “all Boeing” statement that keeps returning is about the wide body fleet. They want 1 common type on long haul. Thus 777/787.

The european narrow body fleet is a different story.

I agree. I know that KLM is going all-Boeing for the wide body fleet, but I never heard that KLM wants to be all-Boeing on the narrow body and wide body fleet.
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n5u
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:34 pm

[quote="FlyingBlueKLM"][quote="n5u"][quote="PANAMsterdam"]

I’m not defending Airbus, and I’m not defending Boeing. I’m just giving my opinion.


as was i ...never be scared to give you opinion that's how we get rid of stagnant thought.
 
B777LRF
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:06 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
That’s true, but doesn't Airbus give type ratings to new customers for free? Or did I misunderstand @inkjet7?


Airbus, just like Boeing, are more than willing to throw in a training package for new customers if they're converting from the competitors product. But nothing is "for free"; the cost will be baked into one or more elements of the purchasing contract.

So if somebody told you Airbus will throw in the training for free, they're talking bollocks. Just as someone would if he or she said Boeing will do the same.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:23 pm

B777LRF wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
That’s true, but doesn't Airbus give type ratings to new customers for free? Or did I misunderstand @inkjet7?


Airbus, just like Boeing, are more than willing to throw in a training package for new customers if they're converting from the competitors product. But nothing is "for free"; the cost will be baked into one or more elements of the purchasing contract.

So if somebody told you Airbus will throw in the training for free, they're talking bollocks. Just as someone would if he or she said Boeing will do the same.

Thanks. I understand it, but I still have some questions. If an airline is not a new customer, how does the type rating stuff work then? I assume if an airline is not a new customer, the type ratings are not included in the contract?
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IWMBH
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:23 pm

I believe it when I see it, sure sounds like a way to trick Boeing in to sell cheap 737’s. But, I must admit I like that A320 better than the 737, it also looks great in a KLM livery. So we will see, KLM has to make a decision in a not to distant future.
 
B777LRF
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:23 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Thanks. I understand it, but I still have some questions. If an airline is not a new customer, how does the type rating stuff work then? I assume if an airline is not a new customer, the type ratings are not included in the contract?


Anything is possible. KLM are phasing out their A330s and thus have a pool of pilots who need to transfer to either the 787 or 777. It is entirely feasible Boeing threw type ratings for that pilot pool into the deal. It's also possible Airbus threw in conversions from the A330/A340 to the A350 when SAS selected that model as their next long-haul aircraft. And so far and so forth.

But not free of charge.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:32 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I believe it when I see it, sure sounds like a way to trick Boeing in to sell cheap 737’s. But, I must admit I like that A320 better than the 737, it also looks great in a KLM livery. So we will see, KLM has to make a decision in a not to distant future.
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Concorde: 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 59 seconds

Boeing 747: 4 hours and 56 minutes
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:06 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I believe it when I see it, sure sounds like a way to trick Boeing in to sell cheap 737’s. But, I must admit I like that A320 better than the 737, it also looks great in a KLM livery. So we will see, KLM has to make a decision in a not to distant future.

I think it is more likely it will be a group order to replace narrowbodies at AF, KL, HV, and TO than KLM ordering 737NG replacements independently. In my opinion it’s not a negotiation tactic, I think Elbers is being serious. Are there any advantages to the 32Q over the MAX 10 that KLM seems to care about? If KLM would order the MAX I can only see two reasons: it would be because they don’t want to be closer to AF, and/or to save money on retraining. But does anyone know how expensive it is to switch from the 737NG to the 32Q?

KLM will have to switch from the 737NG eventually, and I think now is the right time to do that.

I tried to edit my last post because I accidentally posted it without typing anything, but I was not allowed to edit it.
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hooverman
Posts: 312
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:25 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I believe it when I see it, sure sounds like a way to trick Boeing in to sell cheap 737’s. But, I must admit I like that A320 better than the 737, it also looks great in a KLM livery. So we will see, KLM has to make a decision in a not to distant future.

I think it is more likely it will be a group order to replace narrowbodies at AF, KL, HV, and TO than KLM ordering 737NG replacements independently. In my opinion it’s not a negotiation tactic, I think Elbers is being serious. Are there any advantages to the 32Q over the MAX 10 that KLM seems to care about? If KLM would order the MAX I can only see two reasons: it would be because they don’t want to be closer to AF, and/or to save money on retraining. But does anyone know how expensive it is to switch from the 737NG to the 32Q?

KLM will have to switch from the 737NG eventually, and I think now is the right time to do that.

I tried to edit my last post because I accidentally posted it without typing anything, but I was not allowed to edit it.


It's quite clear you like to see the A320 with KLM. You wrote it many many times.
However I still have the impression KLM wants the MAX but if Boeing can't get it's stuff sorted (soon) they will go for the A320.

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