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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:28 pm

hooverman wrote:
However I still have the impression KLM wants the MAX but if Boeing can't get it's stuff sorted (soon) they will go for the A320.

I think that it is okay to assume that ‘soon’ means a maximum of 6 months to a year in this case.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:31 am

If import tariffs get applied to Boeing here in the EU, could that have any effect on the neo vs MAX decision KLM has to make? I’m just curious.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:02 am

hooverman wrote:
However I still have the impression KLM wants the MAX but if Boeing can't get it's stuff sorted (soon) they will go for the A320.


In a perfect world, I understand that MAX would have been a no brainer at KLM. But in the real world, where KLM is part of AF-KLM group, where the MAX is grounded with uncertain future, and where the A321neo is the "superior" product and even larger than MAX-10 for the slot constrained AMS, are you sure KLM really still wants the MAX?
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:33 am

mig17 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
However I still have the impression KLM wants the MAX but if Boeing can't get it's stuff sorted (soon) they will go for the A320.


In a perfect world, I understand that MAX would have been a no brainer at KLM. But in the real world, where KLM is part of AF-KLM group, where the MAX is grounded with uncertain future, and where the A321neo is the "superior" product and even larger than MAX-10 for the slot constrained AMS, are you sure KLM really still wants the MAX?


The way I read Elbers' comments in the article, yes I think they still do. So I agree with Hooverman, the signal to Boeing is: Get your act together, and as soon as we are ready to order there cannot be any open ends anymore: purchase prices, training cost, delivery schedules, it all needs to be set in stone satisfactorily. If not, we won't have any objection to order the A321.

I'm pretty sure KL still isn't in a big hurry to place an order, if they had to order right now they could very well go for the A321. But KL will probably wait until the future of the MAX is more clear.

I do not know if AF/KL will issue a joint group RFP for narrowbody aircraft again, or that KL will order independently like with their E2-195 order.
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airbuster
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:34 pm

frigatebird wrote:
mig17 wrote:
hooverman wrote:
However I still have the impression KLM wants the MAX but if Boeing can't get it's stuff sorted (soon) they will go for the A320.


In a perfect world, I understand that MAX would have been a no brainer at KLM. But in the real world, where KLM is part of AF-KLM group, where the MAX is grounded with uncertain future, and where the A321neo is the "superior" product and even larger than MAX-10 for the slot constrained AMS, are you sure KLM really still wants the MAX?


The way I read Elbers' comments in the article, yes I think they still do. So I agree with Hooverman, the signal to Boeing is: Get your act together, and as soon as we are ready to order there cannot be any open ends anymore: purchase prices, training cost, delivery schedules, it all needs to be set in stone satisfactorily. If not, we won't have any objection to order the A321.

I'm pretty sure KL still isn't in a big hurry to place an order, if they had to order right now they could very well go for the A321. But KL will probably wait until the future of the MAX is more clear.

I do not know if AF/KL will issue a joint group RFP for narrowbody aircraft again, or that KL will order independently like with their E2-195 order.


This is exactly the way KL is playing it. Yes they still have a preference for the MAX. “But Boeing if you screw up any more we will order the A321.”
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:42 pm

airbuster wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
mig17 wrote:

In a perfect world, I understand that MAX would have been a no brainer at KLM. But in the real world, where KLM is part of AF-KLM group, where the MAX is grounded with uncertain future, and where the A321neo is the "superior" product and even larger than MAX-10 for the slot constrained AMS, are you sure KLM really still wants the MAX?


The way I read Elbers' comments in the article, yes I think they still do. So I agree with Hooverman, the signal to Boeing is: Get your act together, and as soon as we are ready to order there cannot be any open ends anymore: purchase prices, training cost, delivery schedules, it all needs to be set in stone satisfactorily. If not, we won't have any objection to order the A321.

I'm pretty sure KL still isn't in a big hurry to place an order, if they had to order right now they could very well go for the A321. But KL will probably wait until the future of the MAX is more clear.

I do not know if AF/KL will issue a joint group RFP for narrowbody aircraft again, or that KL will order independently like with their E2-195 order.


This is exactly the way KL is playing it. Yes they still have a preference for the MAX. “But Boeing if you screw up any more we will order the A321.”

I agree with you @airbuster.

But what if import tariffs of something like 10-20% will get imposed on Boeing here in the EU? Would that also mean ‘We’ll order the A321’?
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airbuster
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 pm

2 days ago I heard second hand from someone that spoke to Elbers that he told him he would have wanted to order the MAX (as we all know) but he just can’t at the moment for several reasons, the number one being the grounding. If we consider all reasons:

-Max grounding
-AMS slot constraint
-Environmental discussion in the Netherlands
-Import tariffs
-AFKL group level decisions

Yes there is a case for the Airbus. However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:50 pm

airbuster wrote:
2 days ago I heard second hand from someone that spoke to Elbers that he told him he would have wanted to order the MAX (as we all know) but he just can’t at the moment for several reasons, the number one being the grounding. If we consider all reasons:

-Max grounding
-AMS slot constraint
-Environmental discussion in the Netherlands
-Import tariffs
-AFKL group level decisions

Yes there is a case for the Airbus. However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.

I agree. In my opinion, it is not unlikely that KLM will order the neo. If Boeing screws up anything, small or big problem, I think KLM will go neo. If import tariffs will get applied, I also think it’s more likely for them to go neo.

But if Boeing doesn’t screw up again and if import tariffs won’t get applied to Boeing, I do see KLM ordering the MAX.

To be clear, this is the way I see it, and I’m happy to hear your opinions on this:

Boeing screws up again, it doesn’t matter if it’s a small or big problem, and import tariffs get applied to Boeing: KLM will most likely order the neo.

Boeing screws up again, it doesn’t matter if it’s a small or big problem, but import tariffs don’t get applied to Boeing: KLM will most likely order the neo.

Boeing doesn’t screw up again, but import tariffs get applied to Boeing: KLM will most likely order the neo.

Boeing doesn’t screw up again, and import tariffs won’t get applied to Boeing: KLM will most likely order the MAX.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:01 pm

I would not take all the rumors too serious. I expect that KLM will fly the MAX and not the A320 Neo family.
But, as also said in the title of this thread, it is likely that KLM as also others has already done or will do, will additional order the A321 Neo LR and or the A321 Xlr version.
For KLM and others, these will just perfectly fit for TATL to smaller destinations and additional to increase the frequency e.g.

As many other airlines, they also´want to play with the B757-200 replacement and to see, what it can do for them.
 
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MrBren
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:08 pm

airbuster wrote:
However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.


Nope. Get rid of the 737, get Airbuses instead, stop acting alone and leverage the AFLKM group might.
Last edited by MrBren on Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airbuster
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:16 pm

MrBren wrote:
airbuster wrote:
However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.


Nope. Get rid of the 737, get Airbuses instead, stop acting alone and leverage the AFLKM group might.


I agree with you that would be sensible. And that is exactly what Ben Smith wants. But Elbers doesn’t want anyone interfering with “his” KLM and especially not from Paris. The relationship between Smith and Elbers is cold, in part for the fore mentioned reason. Let’s see how this is going to play out. And if Smith has the will and stronger arm to push thru what he seems sensible.
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NickWebb
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:26 pm

Antaras wrote:
N776AU wrote:
:cloudnine:
Image

It is a KL's A321ceo illustration. What we expect is a A321neo order from KLM.
Anyway, it looks nice :bigthumbsup:


I never understood the change to that slightly curved line on the KLM livery, it makes the planes look like they are 'snarling' when viewed from the front and doesn't suggest any kind of motion as the curve ends up 'flat lining' along the rest of the fuselage IMHO.!
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:26 pm

airbuster wrote:
MrBren wrote:
airbuster wrote:
However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.


Nope. Get rid of the 737, get Airbuses instead, stop acting alone and leverage the AFLKM group might.


I agree with you that would be sensible. And that is exactly what Ben Smith wants. But Elbers doesn’t want anyone interfering with “his” KLM and especially not from Paris. The relationship between Smith and Elbers is cold, in part for the fore mentioned reason. Let’s see how this is going to play out. And if Smith has the will and stronger arm to push thru what he seems sensible.

@airbuster, I agree with you, and as far as I know, Ben Smith has a lot of power, he is the CEO of AF-KLM, but he also is a commissioner at KLMs Raad van Commissarissen (Supervisory Board). He isn’t a chairman though. Cees ‘t Hart is the chairman, and as far as I know, Ben Smith chose him. So even though Elbers doesn’t want anyone interfering with KLM, he can’t stop Ben Smith from doing anything to KLM if I’m correct. If I’m correct Smith has more power than Elbers. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

And I’m also really curious to see how this is going to play out :)
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tommy1808
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:34 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?


There is no alternative. In the same article, Elbers says if KLM would order the MAX, they will be put at the end of Boeing's 4,900 aircraft backlog. And the MAX production will be running 3 to 4 years behind schedule due to the grounding.

@PepeTheFrog are you saying that the MAX isn’t an option for KLM? Is it correct that if KLM would order 32Qs that they would also be put on the end of the backlog? If I’m correct the MAX is sold out until 2028. @MIflyer12 is that also true for the A321neo?


If Boeing can restart production in summer they are booked shut till the end of 2025 with the 800 plus planes they have to push over into 2024/2025. That is without the 200 for IAG, that also want quick delivery if they firm up the order.
Timeline wise it probably makes no difference between going Max or Neo.

Beat regards
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:35 pm

Toinou wrote:
scbriml wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.


Yes, but KLM is a relatively small airline.


Well, at about 120 aircrafts, I wouldn't call them "small".
If they are big enough to allow fleet diversification to be profitable is another question, one that I can't answer.


120 aircraft is pretty small in this day and age. Large carriers have more frames than that of a single type (not even model)... even ignoring LCCs (WN has 500 737-700, RyanAir has over 400 737-800, easyJet has over 150 A320ceo and will have 130 A320neos...), American has over 300 737-800s and both Delta's and United's 737-900ER fleet is larger than KLM's total fleet with more than 130 frames each.

I think it's fair to call a carrier with 120 aircraft "pretty small". The logic changes a bit if you look at KLM-AF as a single entity, but they hardly manage their fleets that way.

KLM is not of size to justify two separate narrowbody fleets. Minimum efficient scale may not be 500 airplanes like WN's 737-700 fleet, but it's probably more than 20.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

There is no alternative. In the same article, Elbers says if KLM would order the MAX, they will be put at the end of Boeing's 4,900 aircraft backlog. And the MAX production will be running 3 to 4 years behind schedule due to the grounding.

@PepeTheFrog are you saying that the MAX isn’t an option for KLM? Is it correct that if KLM would order 32Qs that they would also be put on the end of the backlog? If I’m correct the MAX is sold out until 2028. @MIflyer12 is that also true for the A321neo?


If Boeing can restart production in summer they are booked shut till the end of 2025 with the 800 plus planes they have to push over into 2024/2025. That is without the 200 for IAG, that also want quick delivery if they firm up the order.
Timeline wise it probably makes no difference between going Max or Neo.

Beat regards
Thomas

Thanks :)
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RvA
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:43 pm

MrBren wrote:
airbuster wrote:
However Elbers is a tough one and want to keep overall costs low at KLM. The easy choice to accomplish that is the MAX.


Nope. Get rid of the 737, get Airbuses instead, stop acting alone and leverage the AFLKM group might.


Agreed. Long term Airbus makes much more sense.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:15 pm

NickWebb wrote:
I never understood the change to that slightly curved line on the KLM livery, it makes the planes look like they are 'snarling' when viewed from the front and doesn't suggest any kind of motion as the curve ends up 'flat lining' along the rest of the fuselage IMHO.!


It looks much better than the old one on Embraers and Dreamliners. By the way the registration should have been PH-AZA (this was reserved for the first A350) ;).
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:17 pm

I called it in the other thread. I still think A321N for mainline (AF and KL) and MAX 200s for Transavia.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:21 pm

As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:45 pm

SEU wrote:
As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.

The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:48 pm

SEU wrote:
As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.


I wouldn't call a 1400nm difference minimal.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:49 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
SEU wrote:
As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.

The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?

The 737 MAX 10 has a 3300 nm range. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX

I don’t know if the 737 MAX can can do it in that specific configuration. And I agree with @gatibosgru.
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:26 am

gatibosgru wrote:
I wouldn't call a 1400nm difference minimal.


It's not the difference itself, but there are to less routes for KLM in this range difference to make it count
 
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scbriml
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:23 am

ramsesp wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I wouldn't call a 1400nm difference minimal.


It's not the difference itself, but there are to less routes for KLM in this range difference to make it count


Today that may be true. However, operating the A321XLR would allow them to open many routes that the 737-10 could only dream of flying.
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keesje
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:29 am

scbriml wrote:
ramsesp wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I wouldn't call a 1400nm difference minimal.


It's not the difference itself, but there are to less routes for KLM in this range difference to make it count


Today that may be true. However, operating the A321XLR would allow them to open many routes that the 737-10 could only dream of flying.


Correct. KLM has always used aircraft in dual high capacity/ short range and medium range roles. The A310's, 767 and even A330s were used for 1hr flights, while providing the right capacity to Middle East, Africa and US East coast destinations, The A321XLR would offer opportunity to do so even better, for lower costs. More spokes for the big hub.

4000NM range from KLM's AMS Hub. http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=4000NM%40 ... 0x360&PM=*
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:49 am

Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?
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godsbeloved
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:44 pm

For MRO purposes KLM mostly flies GE/CFM engines

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MIflyer12
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:27 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?


The 16-strong 737-700 subfleet averages 9.3 years and the 31-count 738 fleet averages 13.2 years - neither is anywhere near needing replacing. Yes, they have five -900s (not ERs) avg 18 years.
 
marcelh
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?


The 16-strong 737-700 subfleet averages 9.3 years and the 31-count 738 fleet averages 13.2 years - neither is anywhere near needing replacing. Yes, they have five -900s (not ERs) avg 18 years.


KLM oldest 737-800 has ln198 and has just become 21 years old. Also almost half of the 737-800 fleet has a ln <1000 and is 19-21 years old. The latest addition to the 737 fleet is brand new (last passenger NG ever built).
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:50 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?


I mean, out of 52 of their their B737, only 18 of them are actually older than 15 year of age. KLM alongside many of these Full service airlines love to keep their planes until they are really old. Maybe they are planning on using them until it reach 25-30 years of age depending on their cycles.

By that time, MAX order book would have dry out and they don't need to wait for couple of years to get a brand new plane, heck, they might have been waiting for MAX replacement even before the crash happened.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:16 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
SEU wrote:
As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.

The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?


You are looking at the wrong side. They didn't considered A321XLR for established short routes. They are looking to expand to other destinations that they can't do in the past.

Using A321XLR and its 4,700nmi range. From Amsterdam, they could easily fly to the whole Middle East & Central Asia easily. Some destinations in India like Delhi (3,430 nmi), Mumbai (3,704 nmi) or Hyderabad (3,985 nmi). And then across atlantic to North America and the Caribbean destinations such as Ottawa (3,040 nmi), San Juan (3,839 nmi) and Basseterre (3,770 nmi).

They also have strong connections to African continent. B737 can't reach most of the destinations there. Almost all of their current and terminated destinations in Africa are reachable using A321XLR, apart from the obvious ones like South Africa or Mauritius. This would boost their growth in such growing market in which aircraft like A330-200 or B787-9 would be unprofitable.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:21 pm

Please ignore this post.
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marcelh
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:55 pm

ewt340 wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?


I mean, out of 52 of their their B737, only 18 of them are actually older than 15 year of age. KLM alongside many of these Full service airlines love to keep their planes until they are really old. Maybe they are planning on using them until it reach 25-30 years of age depending on their cycles.

By that time, MAX order book would have dry out and they don't need to wait for couple of years to get a brand new plane, heck, they might have been waiting for MAX replacement even before the crash happened.


KLM needs bigger NB planes, because of the slot restrictions. Add some environmental rules (noise, carbon footprint), it may be interesting to get rid of all those "acient" NG's and replace them by 737-8 & -10 or A320 & A321 asap.
 
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:09 pm

marcelh wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Why didn't KLM order the MAX before the crashes? And does KLM prefer PW or CFM? And do they prefer GE or RR?


I mean, out of 52 of their their B737, only 18 of them are actually older than 15 year of age. KLM alongside many of these Full service airlines love to keep their planes until they are really old. Maybe they are planning on using them until it reach 25-30 years of age depending on their cycles.

By that time, MAX order book would have dry out and they don't need to wait for couple of years to get a brand new plane, heck, they might have been waiting for MAX replacement even before the crash happened.


KLM needs bigger NB planes, because of the slot restrictions. Add some environmental rules (noise, carbon footprint), it may be interesting to get rid of all those "acient" NG's and replace them by 737-8 & -10 or A320 & A321 asap.

I agree @marcelh. I don’t know if the PW1100G or LEAP 1A/1B is better for KLM regarding environmental rules.
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Flanker7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:20 pm

ewt340 wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
SEU wrote:
As much the A320neo would be a great aircraft for KLM, specially the A321XLR, getting cheap discounted 737-10MAXs would be much more profitable, they can increase capacity vs the 737-700s and the MAX would require less pilot training. Any routes the MAX 10 wouldnt have the range for vs the A321XLR is minimal. The MAX 10 could do all any route in Europe and North Africa and some of the Middle east.

The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?


You are looking at the wrong side. They didn't considered A321XLR for established short routes. They are looking to expand to other destinations that they can't do in the past.

Using A321XLR and its 4,700nmi range. From Amsterdam, they could easily fly to the whole Middle East & Central Asia easily. Some destinations in India like Delhi (3,430 nmi), Mumbai (3,704 nmi) or Hyderabad (3,985 nmi). And then across atlantic to North America and the Caribbean destinations such as Ottawa (3,040 nmi), San Juan (3,839 nmi) and Basseterre (3,770 nmi).

They also have strong connections to African continent. B737 can't reach most of the destinations there. Almost all of their current and terminated destinations in Africa are reachable using A321XLR, apart from the obvious ones like South Africa or Mauritius. This would boost their growth in such growing market in which aircraft like A330-200 or B787-9 would be unprofitable.


Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.
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FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:39 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?


You are looking at the wrong side. They didn't considered A321XLR for established short routes. They are looking to expand to other destinations that they can't do in the past.

Using A321XLR and its 4,700nmi range. From Amsterdam, they could easily fly to the whole Middle East & Central Asia easily. Some destinations in India like Delhi (3,430 nmi), Mumbai (3,704 nmi) or Hyderabad (3,985 nmi). And then across atlantic to North America and the Caribbean destinations such as Ottawa (3,040 nmi), San Juan (3,839 nmi) and Basseterre (3,770 nmi).

They also have strong connections to African continent. B737 can't reach most of the destinations there. Almost all of their current and terminated destinations in Africa are reachable using A321XLR, apart from the obvious ones like South Africa or Mauritius. This would boost their growth in such growing market in which aircraft like A330-200 or B787-9 would be unprofitable.


Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.

I agree with you @Flanker7. In my opinion the XLR doesn’t make any sense at KLM. Maybe it’ll work at a few destinations, but I don’t think using the XLR at the few destinations where it’ll work is profitable.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:39 pm

keesje wrote:
scbriml wrote:
ramsesp wrote:

It's not the difference itself, but there are to less routes for KLM in this range difference to make it count


Today that may be true. However, operating the A321XLR would allow them to open many routes that the 737-10 could only dream of flying.


Correct. KLM has always used aircraft in dual high capacity/ short range and medium range roles. The A310's, 767 and even A330s were used for 1hr flights, while providing the right capacity to Middle East, Africa and US East coast destinations, The A321XLR would offer opportunity to do so even better, for lower costs. More spokes for the big hub.

4000NM range from KLM's AMS Hub. http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=4000NM%40 ... 0x360&PM=*


Can you identify any short haul route (less than 3 hours) that KLM has operated regularly in the last year with a widebody?

How far back in the last are you talking about when you say KLM has always used aircraft in a dual high capacity/ short range and medium range role? Are they using their long haul product on any flight within Europe? It sounds like either you are looking far into the past, or making that up.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:04 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Today that may be true. However, operating the A321XLR would allow them to open many routes that the 737-10 could only dream of flying.


Correct. KLM has always used aircraft in dual high capacity/ short range and medium range roles. The A310's, 767 and even A330s were used for 1hr flights, while providing the right capacity to Middle East, Africa and US East coast destinations, The A321XLR would offer opportunity to do so even better, for lower costs. More spokes for the big hub.

4000NM range from KLM's AMS Hub. http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=4000NM%40 ... 0x360&PM=*


Can you identify any short haul route (less than 3 hours) that KLM has operated regularly in the last year with a widebody?

How far back in the last are you talking about when you say KLM has always used aircraft in a dual high capacity/ short range and medium range role? Are they using their long haul product on any flight within Europe? It sounds like either you are looking far into the past, or making that up.

Last time I looked it was the morning AMS-LHR-AMS with the 767 and that goes back some time. They had a few with the A310 , MAD was one and the LIS-OPO route. MXP I think had a 767 rotation one aswell but not sure. LHR I do know was mainly for cargo in the day.
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LJ
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Last time I looked it was the morning AMS-LHR-AMS with the 767 and that goes back some time. They had a few with the A310 , MAD was one and the LIS-OPO route. MXP I think had a 767 rotation one aswell but not sure. LHR I do know was mainly for cargo in the day.


If you go back to the days of the A310, one can add CPH, CDG, FCO, BCN, ATH. However, those days are gone. At present, it's frequency over capacity. LHR wasn't for cargo only. It was needed to get everyone to London in the morniing (they did have two daily A310 flights in the morning). Cargo was an added bonus, just as the fact they could load those LD3 (A310) or LD2 (767) containers which they could put into the connecting flight to Accra and Lagos. Then came those flights to London City and higher frequency to LHR.....

Flanker7 wrote:
Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.


You forget about the luggage they must carry on most routes to Africa.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:05 pm

LJ wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Last time I looked it was the morning AMS-LHR-AMS with the 767 and that goes back some time. They had a few with the A310 , MAD was one and the LIS-OPO route. MXP I think had a 767 rotation one aswell but not sure. LHR I do know was mainly for cargo in the day.


If you go back to the days of the A310, one can add CPH, CDG, FCO, BCN, ATH. However, those days are gone. At present, it's frequency over capacity. LHR wasn't for cargo only. It was needed to get everyone to London in the morniing (they did have two daily A310 flights in the morning). Cargo was an added bonus, just as the fact they could load those LD3 (A310) or LD2 (767) containers which they could put into the connecting flight to Accra and Lagos. Then came those flights to London City and higher frequency to LHR.....

Flanker7 wrote:
Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.


You forget about the luggage they must carry on most routes to Africa.


That to indeed.
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ewt340
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:06 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
The longest route for KLM's narrow bodies is AMS TLV at 1790 NM great circle route. Is that within reach of a B737-10 MAX? This in a configuration with the first 7 or 8 rows at 35 inch seat pitch and the other rows at 31 inch?


You are looking at the wrong side. They didn't considered A321XLR for established short routes. They are looking to expand to other destinations that they can't do in the past.

Using A321XLR and its 4,700nmi range. From Amsterdam, they could easily fly to the whole Middle East & Central Asia easily. Some destinations in India like Delhi (3,430 nmi), Mumbai (3,704 nmi) or Hyderabad (3,985 nmi). And then across atlantic to North America and the Caribbean destinations such as Ottawa (3,040 nmi), San Juan (3,839 nmi) and Basseterre (3,770 nmi).

They also have strong connections to African continent. B737 can't reach most of the destinations there. Almost all of their current and terminated destinations in Africa are reachable using A321XLR, apart from the obvious ones like South Africa or Mauritius. This would boost their growth in such growing market in which aircraft like A330-200 or B787-9 would be unprofitable.


Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.


Because they terminated some destinations to African cities. Not all destinations across Africa or Asia are big enough to fill B787-9. Which would be the smallest widebody they have in the Future since A330-200 and A330-300 would have been replaced by B787-10 in 2025. Also, does all of the terminated destinations across Africa have such high volume of paying cargo compared to the current active one?
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:13 pm

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

You are looking at the wrong side. They didn't considered A321XLR for established short routes. They are looking to expand to other destinations that they can't do in the past.

Using A321XLR and its 4,700nmi range. From Amsterdam, they could easily fly to the whole Middle East & Central Asia easily. Some destinations in India like Delhi (3,430 nmi), Mumbai (3,704 nmi) or Hyderabad (3,985 nmi). And then across atlantic to North America and the Caribbean destinations such as Ottawa (3,040 nmi), San Juan (3,839 nmi) and Basseterre (3,770 nmi).

They also have strong connections to African continent. B737 can't reach most of the destinations there. Almost all of their current and terminated destinations in Africa are reachable using A321XLR, apart from the obvious ones like South Africa or Mauritius. This would boost their growth in such growing market in which aircraft like A330-200 or B787-9 would be unprofitable.


Why in the world would they want to fly a NB to their African destination. They haul tons a cargo have a boatload of connecting pax so a NB is a waist of time. Carabean is sort of the the same story most day it's a double daily WB do anything smaller doesn't even come in to play.

I agree with you @Flanker7. In my opinion the XLR doesn’t make any sense at KLM. Maybe it’ll work at a few destinations, but I don’t think using the XLR at the few destinations where it’ll work is profitable.


They probably would order A321neo to replace their B737. As some people already suggested, slots restrictions would be the main reasoning for it. As for the XLR, it would be the cherry on top.
Sure most of the routes would be too short for the XLR variants, but it would be their only tools for expansions into smaller market across the continents.
I think it would be quite logical to suggest that they could potentially used A321XLR to maybe open up new routes to smaller cities in Africa OR resetting operations to their terminated destinations.

With their plan to replace and retire their A330 and B747. They could streamline their operations with the combinations of A321neo, B777 and B787.
This sounds like a solid plan to me.
 
sandyb123
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Correct. KLM has always used aircraft in dual high capacity/ short range and medium range roles. The A310's, 767 and even A330s were used for 1hr flights, while providing the right capacity to Middle East, Africa and US East coast destinations, The A321XLR would offer opportunity to do so even better, for lower costs. More spokes for the big hub.

4000NM range from KLM's AMS Hub. http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=4000NM%40 ... 0x360&PM=*


Can you identify any short haul route (less than 3 hours) that KLM has operated regularly in the last year with a widebody?

How far back in the last are you talking about when you say KLM has always used aircraft in a dual high capacity/ short range and medium range role? Are they using their long haul product on any flight within Europe? It sounds like either you are looking far into the past, or making that up.

Last time I looked it was the morning AMS-LHR-AMS with the 767 and that goes back some time. They had a few with the A310 , MAD was one and the LIS-OPO route. MXP I think had a 767 rotation one aswell but not sure. LHR I do know was mainly for cargo in the day.


Maybe I am missing historical context but KLM hasn't flown the 767 since 2007? All their short haul ops are on the 737 including LHR.

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keesje
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:35 pm

As I said KLM used A310s, 767s and later even A330 for short haul rotations early in the morning, for high demand slots. Later in the morning they were were part of the west bound long haul wave.

https://youtu.be/rfOeFK8gRlc

KLM 737-900 are seatcount restricted (specified with 5 abreast business, coatrooom, catering etc.) And not really usefull for high capacity flights.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:52 am

Flanker7 wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
keesje wrote:

Correct. KLM has always used aircraft in dual high capacity/ short range and medium range roles. The A310's, 767 and even A330s were used for 1hr flights, while providing the right capacity to Middle East, Africa and US East coast destinations, The A321XLR would offer opportunity to do so even better, for lower costs. More spokes for the big hub.

4000NM range from KLM's AMS Hub. http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=&R=4000NM%40 ... 0x360&PM=*


Can you identify any short haul route (less than 3 hours) that KLM has operated regularly in the last year with a widebody?

How far back in the last are you talking about when you say KLM has always used aircraft in a dual high capacity/ short range and medium range role? Are they using their long haul product on any flight within Europe? It sounds like either you are looking far into the past, or making that up.

Last time I looked it was the morning AMS-LHR-AMS with the 767 and that goes back some time. They had a few with the A310 , MAD was one and the LIS-OPO route. MXP I think had a 767 rotation one aswell but not sure. LHR I do know was mainly for cargo in the day.


The A321XLR is one of the worst airplanes for cargo. Depending on the number of Aux tanks installed, there is very little room for cargo.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:00 am

keesje wrote:
As I said KLM used A310s, 767s and later even A330 for short haul rotations early in the morning, for high demand slots. Later in the morning they were were part of the west bound long haul wave.

https://youtu.be/rfOeFK8gRlc

KLM 737-900 are seatcount restricted (specified with 5 abreast business, coatrooom, catering etc.) And not really usefull for high capacity flights.


If the other posters are correct, those short haul widebody flights are for cargo. The A321XLR is terrible for cargo with the enlarged permanent rear center fuel tank. An A321XLR with low passenger capacity due to premium seats and low cargo capacity due to Enlarged the fuel tanks Does not sound like it will be useful for the KLM short haul network.

AMS is the 4th busiest cargo airport in Europe. KLM has a fleet of combi 747s for high cargo demand. KLM would have to carefully select destinations that dont need cargo capacity.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:16 am

AngMoh wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
They publish a lot of rubbish, but their financial articles are usually quite good actually, like this one. I think it's a great idea, a combination of 320neo/321neo to replace the whole 737NG fleet. All -700's, -900's, and the older -800's can go to the scrapper, while the newer -800's can go to Transavia.


Agree. They are a junk paper but in this kind of stuff they tend to be correct. And the Financieel Dagblad which is solid is confident enough to quote them. The FD specifically refers to procurement of A321 and not generic A320 series.

https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1334886/klm-ov ... ese-vloot#

And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195. So there is just -800 and -900 to replace and for the -900 the A321 is a much better option. Note that KLM has -900 and not -900ER.

Only because of (slightly) better payload capability on the A321? Or are there other reasons? I don’t think there are a lot of differences apart from payload capability between the A321neo and the MAX 10.
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mjoelnir
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:09 am

FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
AngMoh wrote:
BasilFawlty wrote:
They publish a lot of rubbish, but their financial articles are usually quite good actually, like this one. I think it's a great idea, a combination of 320neo/321neo to replace the whole 737NG fleet. All -700's, -900's, and the older -800's can go to the scrapper, while the newer -800's can go to Transavia.


Agree. They are a junk paper but in this kind of stuff they tend to be correct. And the Financieel Dagblad which is solid is confident enough to quote them. The FD specifically refers to procurement of A321 and not generic A320 series.

https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1334886/klm-ov ... ese-vloot#

And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195. So there is just -800 and -900 to replace and for the -900 the A321 is a much better option. Note that KLM has -900 and not -900ER.

Only because of (slightly) better payload capability on the A321? Or are there other reasons? I don’t think there are a lot of differences apart from payload capability between the A321neo and the MAX 10.


Compared with the 737-9 or even the 737-10, the A321 is bigger, has more range and moves a higher payload, all while having superior runway performance. Shorter take off run and lower take off and landing speeds.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
Posts: 223
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:26 am

mjoelnir wrote:
FlyingBlueKLM wrote:
AngMoh wrote:

Agree. They are a junk paper but in this kind of stuff they tend to be correct. And the Financieel Dagblad which is solid is confident enough to quote them. The FD specifically refers to procurement of A321 and not generic A320 series.

https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1334886/klm-ov ... ese-vloot#

And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195. So there is just -800 and -900 to replace and for the -900 the A321 is a much better option. Note that KLM has -900 and not -900ER.

Only because of (slightly) better payload capability on the A321? Or are there other reasons? I don’t think there are a lot of differences apart from payload capability between the A321neo and the MAX 10.


Compared with the 737-9 or even the 737-10, the A321 is bigger, has more range and moves a higher payload, all while having superior runway performance. Shorter take off run and lower take off and landing speeds.

Thanks. I don’t think KLM cares that much about the range, but I do think they really care about the payload and performance.
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