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PepeTheFrog
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KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:41 pm

If me may believe Pieter Elbers, CEO of KLM, the Dutch carrier might be poised to order some A321 aircraft.

KLM is considering switching to Boeing's competitor Airbus for the European short haul fleet. That is what KLM CEO Pieter Elbers said in Charleston last week, when the airline received its 18th Boeing 787 Dreamliner. A remarkable statement, because KLM recently ordered most aircraft from Boeing.

"We have faith in the MAX's return, but at the same time we are also looking at the Airbus A321, given the uncertainty surrounding the MAX," says KLM's CEO Pieter Elbers, who committed himself to Boeing less than a year ago for the long haul fleet. In June, KLM decided to exchange orders for the A350 with Air France for the Boeing 787. "I don't know when the MAX will return, but I think Toulouse is certainly interested in a possible KLM order."


Dutch story https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/122 ... ing-crisis
 
hooverman
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:51 pm

imo KL wants the 737 and if they play it right they can get a very good deal too.
Boeing doesn't want to loose KL as a 737 customer for sure.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:00 pm

If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:00 pm

Of course, we have discussed it many times. For the KLM hub based network also the XLR could open new opportunities. And the GTF's are quieter, which is important for Schiphol's stringent noise restrictions.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:02 pm

That would make sense to dump the Boeinga and align with the AF fleet. They could trade aircraft as capacity demands change.
 
SteelChair
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
That would make sense to dump the Boeinga and align with the AF fleet. They could trade aircraft as capacity demands change.


Something tells me the pilots unions would go berserk if such a thing were ever even suggested, let alone attempted.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:46 pm

Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?
 
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JannEejit
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:54 pm

hooverman wrote:
imo KL wants the 737 and if they play it right they can get a very good deal too.
Boeing doesn't want to loose KL as a 737 customer for sure.


That's how I'm reading it too. But I do wonder how many 'Boeing Loyal' customers will now consider an Airbus subfleet, having had their fingers burned by the Max debacle ?
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:54 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?


There is no alternative. In the same article, Elbers says if KLM would order the MAX, they will be put at the end of Boeing's 4,900 aircraft backlog. And the MAX production will be running 3 to 4 years behind schedule due to the grounding.
 
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scbriml
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.


Yes, but KLM is a relatively small airline.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Wasn't the head of Airbus recently quoted as saying that 320s were sold out into 2025? Could KL wait that long?


How long would KLM have to wait if they ordered MAXes tomorrow? Leeham’s recent article suggests it will take years for Boeing to ‘catch up’ with its delivery schedule.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/14/boein ... -analysis/
 
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zkojq
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:28 am

I want this to happen just for how great the livery would look on an A321neo.

jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.

I agree. Fleet Diversity has it's benifits. Same with the Trent 1000 ADs.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:39 am

There are bound to be some Max orders canceled. If KLM wants the 737 then I'm sure Boeing can find the slots.
 
A388
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:53 am

What I've heard before, this newspaper (Telegraaf) isn't the most reliable newspaper in the Netherlands. Please correct me on this.

A388
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:08 am

They publish a lot of rubbish, but their financial articles are usually quite good actually, like this one. I think it's a great idea, a combination of 320neo/321neo to replace the whole 737NG fleet. All -700's, -900's, and the older -800's can go to the scrapper, while the newer -800's can go to Transavia.
 
hooverman
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:11 am

A388 wrote:
What I've heard before, this newspaper (Telegraaf) isn't the most reliable newspaper in the Netherlands. Please correct me on this.

A388

What newspaper is reliable these days? They all have their political agenda.
Anyway it's a direct quote from Elbers so there is not any reason to think it's not reliable.
 
hooverman
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:13 am

JannEejit wrote:
hooverman wrote:
imo KL wants the 737 and if they play it right they can get a very good deal too.
Boeing doesn't want to loose KL as a 737 customer for sure.


That's how I'm reading it too. But I do wonder how many 'Boeing Loyal' customers will now consider an Airbus subfleet, having had their fingers burned by the Max debacle ?


I guess it depends on how long it will take before the MAX can fly again.
 
AngMoh
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:45 am

BasilFawlty wrote:
They publish a lot of rubbish, but their financial articles are usually quite good actually, like this one. I think it's a great idea, a combination of 320neo/321neo to replace the whole 737NG fleet. All -700's, -900's, and the older -800's can go to the scrapper, while the newer -800's can go to Transavia.


Agree. They are a junk paper but in this kind of stuff they tend to be correct. And the Financieel Dagblad which is solid is confident enough to quote them. The FD specifically refers to procurement of A321 and not generic A320 series.

https://fd.nl/ondernemen/1334886/klm-ov ... ese-vloot#

And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195. So there is just -800 and -900 to replace and for the -900 the A321 is a much better option. Note that KLM has -900 and not -900ER.
 
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N776AU
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:17 am

:cloudnine:
Image
 
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Antaras
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:32 am

N776AU wrote:
:cloudnine:
Image

It is a KL's A321ceo illustration. What we expect is a A321neo order from KLM.
Anyway, it looks nice :bigthumbsup:
 
Avgeek21
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:22 am

Standard negotiating tactics. MAX or NEO will work if the price and schedule is right. It’s not always about which plane is better because of x, y and z. It’s the whole package offered that counts.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:39 am

They are perhaps seeking the same price as achieved by IAG.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:41 am

My two cents:
* KLM will get MAX's, because Boeing will give them away for 'free' once the whole grounding drama is over.
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money
* And AF pilots will probably go on strike if the A320 fleet of KL is younger than theirs :mrgreen:
 
Toinou
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:00 am

scbriml wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.


Yes, but KLM is a relatively small airline.


Well, at about 120 aircrafts, I wouldn't call them "small".
If they are big enough to allow fleet diversification to be profitable is another question, one that I can't answer.
 
cedarjet
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:05 am

It would be breaking with current trends if they go for the Max. Other than US carriers, LOT, and (inexplicably) Air Canada, no first world flag carrier has ordered the Max. If you look at the myriad liveries stacked up in Boeing’s parking lot, they’re all LCCs, second tier Chinese airlines, SCAT (!!), GOL etc.

KLM’s customers expect better.
 
76er
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:14 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money



Well, for a couple more years KL still has a bunch of Airbus rated pilots in the pool. They would probably love the 321N, but there is this little problem of different payscales and workrules for narrow- vs widebody types in the CLA.
Nevertheless I do not think this is going to happen, sadly. Just tactics.
 
76er
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:20 am

cedarjet wrote:
KLM’s customers expect better.


95% Of KLM’s customers cannot tell the difference.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:25 am

76er wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money



Well, for a couple more years KL still has a bunch of Airbus rated pilots in the pool. They would probably love the 321N, but there is this little problem of different payscales and workrules for narrow- vs widebody types in the CLA.
Nevertheless I do not think this is going to happen, sadly. Just tactics.



True! But KLM only has (had) +/- 15-20 A330's, and if they would order Airbuses as a 737 replacement they would probably order much more than that, so they would still have to retrain a lot of 737 pilots.
 
76er
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:28 am

AngMoh wrote:

And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195.


The 195E2 is meant for E190 replacement. Due to the slot fiasco at AMS KL wants to upgauge, not downgauge.
 
raylee67
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:41 am

Assuming that if KLM is looking at the 321, it's really looking at the 321XLR. There are a lot of things that the XLR can do and the MAX cannot.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:10 am

cedarjet wrote:
It would be breaking with current trends if they go for the Max. Other than US carriers, LOT, and (inexplicably) Air Canada, no first world flag carrier has ordered the Max. If you look at the myriad liveries stacked up in Boeing’s parking lot, they’re all LCCs, second tier Chinese airlines, SCAT (!!), GOL etc.

KLM’s customers expect better.


You’re forgetting IAG plan to order 200... other carriers include Singapore Airlines and Norwegian. All fairly reputable carriers.
 
76er
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:16 am

With AMS on lockdown because of the slot fiasco, KL simply has no room to open up new routes that are specifically tailored to the XLR. And from the looks of it, the environmentalists and NIMBY’s seem to be winning the war here in the Low Countries. So prospects for the XLR in KLM-blue are not very bright at the moment.
 
cedarjet
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:16 am

seansasLCY wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
It would be breaking with current trends if they go for the Max. Other than US carriers, LOT, and (inexplicably) Air Canada, no first world flag carrier has ordered the Max. If you look at the myriad liveries stacked up in Boeing’s parking lot, they’re all LCCs, second tier Chinese airlines, SCAT (!!), GOL etc.

KLM’s customers expect better.


You’re forgetting IAG plan to order 200... other carriers include Singapore Airlines and Norwegian. All fairly reputable carriers.

Norwegian and Silk Air are very much LCCs. The IAG “order” is a stunt, a LOI as a favour from a friend; and if it ever happens, they’re almost certainly for Level, not BA.
 
jghealey
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:26 am

Couldn't they get around the unions obstacle by having Air France go all-A220 (perhaps unrealistic, but with the launch of the -500 quite possible) and then KLM get the A321s?
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:42 am

If the Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij wants to fly an A321 then I’d be happy to try it.

Rgds,
C1973
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:43 am

jghealey wrote:
Couldn't they get around the unions obstacle by having Air France go all-A220 (perhaps unrealistic, but with the launch of the -500 quite possible) and then KLM get the A321s?


AFAIK, the A220 isn't exactly popular among the Air France A320 pilots. They tend to consider it a downgrade. It will be mayhem if they are all forced onto it.
Air France also needs bigger jets on many of its routes, so that would create a logistical nightmare with KLM 321 crews being based all over France.

cedarjet wrote:
Norwegian and Silk Air are very much LCCs.


Silk Air is not a low cost airline. It's a full service operation.
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:47 am

VSMUT wrote:
Air France also needs bigger jets on many of its routes, so that would create a logistical nightmare with KLM 321 crews being based all over France.



If AF need bigger jets, then why are they retiring their A380’s? Sorry, I’m not being facetious, just genuinely curious.

Rgds,
C1973
 
AngMoh
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:52 am

cedarjet wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
It would be breaking with current trends if they go for the Max. Other than US carriers, LOT, and (inexplicably) Air Canada, no first world flag carrier has ordered the Max. If you look at the myriad liveries stacked up in Boeing’s parking lot, they’re all LCCs, second tier Chinese airlines, SCAT (!!), GOL etc.

KLM’s customers expect better.


You’re forgetting IAG plan to order 200... other carriers include Singapore Airlines and Norwegian. All fairly reputable carriers.

Norwegian and Silk Air are very much LCCs. The IAG “order” is a stunt, a LOI as a favour from a friend; and if it ever happens, they’re almost certainly for Level, not BA.


The first 737-8 has been painted in SQ colours.... SilkAir's 737-800s are going to Scoot and their 737-8Maxes are going to SQ.

Back to KLM: if they get the A321, it is no more 737 as having both 737 and A321 goes against the very clear strategy of reducing the number of pilot pools. And conversion of pilots from 737 to A320 is a small issue compared with everything else. Pilot re-training is a factor but in no way a showstopper for a possible conversion.
 
ewt340
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:56 am

It would be possible because they haven't actually order the MAX yet.

Air france uses A320 family exclusively. Even though their widebody strategy are slightly different from each other, they might be able to streamline their narrowbody operations by using the same type of aircraft.

If they do this, they would operate A320neos, B777 and B787.
Air france would operate A220, A320neos, A350, B777 and B787.
 
94717
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:59 am

Norwegian consider to use its A320 order for their own operations...

A lot of things will happen the next 2 years. Special when the 737 production restarts with initially lower production rates..
 
VSMUT
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:14 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Air France also needs bigger jets on many of its routes, so that would create a logistical nightmare with KLM 321 crews being based all over France.



If AF need bigger jets, then why are they retiring their A380’s? Sorry, I’m not being facetious, just genuinely curious.

Rgds,
C1973


Because you can require a bigger jet without requiring one as big as an A380? Because the A321 is a short-haul jet and the A380 is an ULR one?
Wasn't the A380 phase-out related to other things than size? Out dated onboard product and prohibitive cost of refurbishment, plus high cost of operation.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:21 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
If the Max debacle has shown airlines anything, it is the need to diversify their fleets. There is something to be said for standardization, but eventually you reach the scale where similar fleet types compliment each other.

Been saying this since the whole MAX issue started... and people who think the larger LoCos aren't strongly considering this, may be in for a shock or two.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:37 am

hooverman wrote:
imo KL wants the 737 and if they play it right they can get a very good deal too.
Boeing doesn't want to loose KL as a 737 customer for sure.


This could be negotiation tactics. We've seen more airline managers stating they are interested in planes competing with the ones they want.
 
mig17
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Re: KLM mulls A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:45 am

hooverman wrote:
imo KL wants the 737

But Ben doesn't ...
And franckly, after all that happened and all that we know about the MAX and Boeing situation, I am sure KL doesn't either anymore.
Who would want a grounded, not well born, bad pr, futur uncertain airplane over the A321n which is also the supperior product?
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:52 am

AngMoh wrote:
And you can see 737-700 already replaced by E195.


No, the 21 E2-195's will replace 17 E190's. The preliminary list of planes (registrations) has been quoted on Dutch online magazine Scramble.
Last edited by inkjet7 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
inkjet7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:54 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
* Because KLM nor Transavia has ever flown with the A320-series aircraft (maybe a lease once of 1 plane?) they don't have trained pilots so they would need to retrain all of their 737-pilots which also costs a lot of money

Airbus typically adds type ratings to each plane they offer an airline to replace other type ratings.
 
AMS18C36C
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:56 am

We had a very recent thread on the KLM 737-replacement. Why a new one?
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:11 am

AMS18C36C wrote:
We had a very recent thread on the KLM 737-replacement. Why a new one?

I’m also wondering about that.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:31 am

Interesting, to see more Airbus in the KL fleet. However it wouldnt be anytime soon as it still part of the AF company. With the recent developments in cost reductions and fleet optimization plans, I don't think Paris would allow KL to buy more new planes.
 
FlyingBlueKLM
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:38 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Interesting, to see more Airbus in the KL fleet. However it wouldnt be anytime soon as it still part of the AF company. With the recent developments in cost reductions and fleet optimization plans, I don't think Paris would allow KL to buy more new planes.

It is interesting. I think the narrowbody replacement at AFKL has already begun, because AFKL ordered E2s for KL and A220s for AF.
 
Flanker7
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Re: KLM considers A321 order

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:06 pm

Can we contain this to one thread and not two on the same subject

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