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flilot
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:42 pm

It appears America has learned nothing from the Bombardier C-Series debacle. When you try and force a company's hand, often the product you are trying to force one way, ends up in the hands of someone much more capable and ends up going in an entirely different direction.

America has shot itself in the foot so much lately that they are balancing on one leg, and now they appear to be blowing the toes off the remaining foot. Still, pride always comes before a fall.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:11 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
WIederling wrote:
you sure? :-)
The idea that something cannot be copied or recreated is what I deem "ridiculous".
( Especially in relation to a country that has borrowed and homesteaded so much.)

Just a question of effort and time.

Tu-4 was a fully metricized recreation of the B29 in less than two years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_T ... evelopment

I am 100% sure. Sure they might copy it in 20 years but then they might as well as just continue with their own development. People on this thread really are showing very little comprehension of Chinese aeroengine industry.

Their "own" development is just rip offs of other countries material. Innovation is what makes the US a superpower as well as the former USSR (yeah they had their own rip offs but they were also pretty crafty coming with their own stuff too). China is good and all but their engineers are just taught how to "do" and not how to think. A cheap Chinese version of a LEAP engine is exactly that, and like I said before, the world knows it. Even the local Chinese airlines don't have faith in Chinese aircraft because even they know its crap.


They don't really trust Chinese cars either because they do not do well. One of the real marvels of Chinese manufacturing is how to build a factory that doesn't have standardized parts. I can buy a fuel pump today for my 1993 Nissan that fits right in, my buddy that runs the lawn mower repair shop will not work on Chinese engines because if the parts are available they don't fit. Most machines produce near exact parts every time, not sorta right parts.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:05 am

This is about protecting Boeing not IP theft.

The global economy and airline market is about to go backwards 20 years. The US government will have to protect their manufacturing industry.
 
Elementalism
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:49 am

RJMAZ wrote:
This is about protecting Boeing not IP theft.

The global economy and airline market is about to go backwards 20 years. The US government will have to protect their manufacturing industry.


I think it is both to be honest. IP theft is a real issue. And Boeing is a national interest. The US is fine with exporting their manufacturing provided it doesnt interfere with a national interest. 40 years of decimating manufacturing to China and SE Asia proves that point. But when it comes to Boeing the US has a national interest in protecting a defense manufacturer.
 
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Erebus
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:24 am

Elementalism wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
And you believe securing European industry is getting into bed with China? Good luck with that.

And if your own due diligence isn't showing you why using Huawei for your infrastructure is a bad idea, you should start all over again.


I was shocked to see the UK pick Huawei to build out their 5G. Talk about giving the keys to the kingdom.


They've been saying it is for "non-critical parts" of the infrastructure. Perhaps its a ploy in collective counterintelligence. Give away the keys to your adversaries and see what they are capable of doing or intend to do with it.

Or maybe it's just General Melchett at the helm with his advanced tactics...
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:13 am

tphuang wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I am 100% sure. Sure they might copy it in 20 years but then they might as well as just continue with their own development. People on this thread really are showing very little comprehension of Chinese aeroengine industry.

Their "own" development is just rip offs of other countries material. Innovation is what makes the US a superpower as well as the former USSR (yeah they had their own rip offs but they were also pretty crafty coming with their own stuff too). China is good and all but their engineers are just taught how to "do" and not how to think. A cheap Chinese version of a LEAP engine is exactly that, and like I said before, the world knows it. Even the local Chinese airlines don't have faith in Chinese aircraft because even they know its crap.


How very stereotypical of you. So if cheap chines version of a leap engine is garbage, why are you afraid of them copying it? If they copy it 20 years late and it's still not as good, there is no commercial application to it.

As I said, there is no threat here of China really copying Leap-1C. Only this administration with no concept of how complex building a modern aeroengine would make a decision like this. What will probably happen is that CFM will lose all their sales on those Chinese airline bound C919 to some Russian engine option. C919 or a chinese aeroengine option is not a threat.

Stereotypical of me? Pray tell! I wasn't aware we've actually met.

When did I say i was afraid of the Chinese copy? All I said was they already have the engine so what's stopping them from making copies? This proposed ban on exporting the engine to China won't stop them from anything except literally, not figuratively, peeling off the PW decal and slapping COMAC on torture engines themselves or the existing ones they have; and it definitely won't stop them from copying it.
When wasn't America great?


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acomp
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:49 am

Chinese WS-10 turbofan is derived from the CFM-56/GE F101.
This engine is not reliable, PLA still needs to import AL-31 from Russia.

Let's take a look at the ARJ-21, a twin brother of DC-9.
Chinese gov. claims this aircraft is a "Chinese Independent Design" masterpiece.
 
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scbriml
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:59 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
If this happens, what could it potentially mean for the LEAP powered A320neo aircraft that are built in TSN? The US will have to halt engine shipments too if they are afraid of reverse engineering.

blueflyer wrote:
The stated reason is concerns that China may reverse-engineer the products and break into the global market.


China can buy a bunch of 737 MAX aircraft and would still be able to reverse engineer the engine. So the official reason sounds pretty odd.


No need for that - China already has a 'bunch' of delivered MAX, not to mention dozens of LEAP and GTF powered A320neos in operation.
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KFTG
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:02 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
Translation: the US Government is protecting Boeing from competition.

Ah yes, China - capital of competition!
Speaking of competition, please explain to me the "forced" orders for the C919, ARJ-21 by the gov't of China onto Chinese carriers?
 
oldannyboy
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:18 pm

nine4nine wrote:
I get it. It prevents China the rights to technology that they copy and fabricate their own versions of it 100% copied from the imported original. It allows them to mimic the same tech that US companies have spent millions to billions in development costs while China can replicate exactly and profit without fronting much cash at all for development. China needs to learn like everyone else has to design develop and engineer their own homegrown products for once.


Because you actually [want to] believe that the US is leading the way in terms of technology and know-how. Yes, As if the US was not an importer, and purely a leading producers of said technology.

You may want to revisit your thinking man, and brutally wake up to a different reality. One that is called Global Economy.

Your thinking is stuck in a mid-1950s, church-going, cocktail-sipping, Hudson-driving, middle-America.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:43 pm

Someone is not happy that the Chinese read the avionics source code, which led to worldwide grounding.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ItnStln
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:27 pm

mxaxai wrote:
That said, there were rumors that China is using the MAX recertification to pressure the US to accept their C919 certification. So the US may simply be responding in kind.

I read that several months ago. If it's true that China is tying the MAX recertification to the C919 that's a problem.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:40 pm

KFTG wrote:
Insertnamehere wrote:
Translation: the US Government is protecting Boeing from competition.

Ah yes, China - capital of competition!
Speaking of competition, please explain to me the "forced" orders for the C919, ARJ-21 by the gov't of China onto Chinese carriers?


I added on to what I originally said in a second post in which I quoted as my original post did not go into enough detail to articulate my point enough
 
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DL747400
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:37 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Why is the US Gov worried about IP theft but the manufacturer is not? Government taking measures for the companies' own good...


Because IMO GE is focused primarily on cash flow today rather than loss of IP tomorrow.
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atcsundevil
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:51 pm

While this topic is inherently political, this topic and forum are for discussing the aviation impact on this story. Primarily political discussion needs to go to the Non Aviation Forum. Furthermore, the personal attacks and insults need to stop, it's getting ridiculous.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:22 pm

ItnStln wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
That said, there were rumors that China is using the MAX recertification to pressure the US to accept their C919 certification. So the US may simply be responding in kind.

I read that several months ago. If it's true that China is tying the MAX recertification to the C919 that's a problem.


very reasonable action to block the MAX recertification, and the 77X's certification if US really take action to ban the engines to C919.
 
sincx
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:50 pm

Looks like Donald just overrode the two Mikes (Pompeo and Pence) who've been looking for a fight with China non-stop.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/us/p ... ology.html

But on Tuesday, Mr. Trump seemed to pre-emptively scuttle such moves and two people familiar with the matter said that the meeting was on hold and that U.S. would not block GE’s ability to sell jet engine parts to China.

“The United States cannot, & will not, become such a difficult place to deal with in terms of foreign countries buying our product, including for the always used National Security excuse, that our companies will be forced to leave in order to remain competitive,” Mr. Trump wrote. “We want to sell product and goods to China and other countries.”

The president went on to say that if the United States does not sell its products for national security reasons, then other countries will step in and do so. Mr. Trump explicitly referenced the jet engine sales.

“As an example, I want China to buy our jet engines, the best in the World,” he said. “I have seen some of the regulations being circulated, including those being contemplated by Congress, and they are ridiculous.”

Mr. Trump said that he has made this sentiment clear to everyone in his administration.
 
luckyone
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:34 pm

Could this also be a trade bargaining tool? The C919 without its engines doesn't fly and isn't on time. China has a lot of face riding on this project, and may be willing to dicker in order not to have its projects delayed and look weak to others as needing to rely on outside sources?
 
mxaxai
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:28 pm

sincx wrote:
Looks like Donald just overrode the two Mikes (Pompeo and Pence) who've been looking for a fight with China non-stop.

Playing good cop - bad cop? He'll throw around the National Security excuse around all day if it suits him.
 
Nick614
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:45 pm

mxaxai wrote:
sincx wrote:
Looks like Donald just overrode the two Mikes (Pompeo and Pence) who've been looking for a fight with China non-stop.

Playing good cop - bad cop? He'll throw around the National Security excuse around all day if it suits him.



I'm sure GE/Pratt and Safran told the administration they want to keep selling and the aforementioned fact that China has yet been unable to copy various engine designs. Chinese can copy simple things, but haven't been able to reproduce a sophisticated jet engine, yet.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:14 pm

Francoflier wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
I get it. It prevents China the rights to technology that they copy and fabricate their own versions of it 100% copied from the imported original. It allows them to mimic the same tech that US companies have spent millions to billions in development costs while China can replicate exactly and profit without fronting much cash at all for development. China needs to learn like everyone else has to design develop and engineer their own homegrown products for once.


Shouldn't someone have thought about that before allowing the sale of LEAP-engined MAXes and NEOs to China then?


Yep.

China can dissect the LEAP engine from the 737 MAX, and voila.

Halting engine deliveries for the C919 program is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. There must be another reason for this behavior.
Good moaning!
 
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janders
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:50 pm

The US government has reapproved GE Aviation’s application to supply engines for Comac’s C919 narrowbody programme, months after it mulled blocking engine sales.

“We are pleased that the [US] administration has come to this decision, and look to continue to serve our customers in China and beyond,” the company adds.


US reapproves licence for Leap engine sales to China
https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/ ... 27.article
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
Wayfarer515
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:17 am

It may be too late, China is already in talks with UEC to supply the PD-14 for the C919. Can't find the article anymore, but they mentioned it is a done deal. The world will be a very different place after this mess of the coronavirus, and I think that the master chess players are ahead of the game already, and no, unfortunately they are not in the USA.
 
bennett123
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:46 am

Would this have meant banning sales of the B737MAX to China as well.
 
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Antaras
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:08 am

bennett123 wrote:
Would this have meant banning sales of the B737MAX to China as well.

As well as the A320/321neo.
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bennett123
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:31 am

The A320NEO/A321NEO also take the PW1000G.
 
leghorn
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:57 am

PD-14 seems to have similar performance to Leap1B. Could it be such an inferior product?
How much cheaper could it be? 50%
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 am

PD-14 is unproven.

But the Chinese are right to want several engine choices, in fact they should make a deal with PW too.

Now I wonder if Safran is looking at making an engine with EU partners, and without GE ? Just in case.
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Noshow
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:10 am

In the old days the main russian issue used to be engine time on wing between overhauls and maintenance. And parts...
How does today's PD-14 compare now?
 
Raptormodeller
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:10 pm

As dumb as it sounds, I agree with this. China has a VERY big precedent of doing this sort of thing. Look at France, n1 in nuclear energy. Sold some top of the line EPR reactors to them in the early 2000's with - of course - a bit of technological transfer, no other way to get the contract. China later reverse engineered, or at least, ripped off the design, made it cheaper and slightly worse. Would then go on to sell it, massively undercutting the French design. Look at Hinkley point, sure its a French design, but its basically chinese. If China can do that with France's nuclear industry, they will surely be considering doing the same or similar with the LEAP engine.
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lightsaber
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:29 pm

It looks like the US won't block sales. There was concern about technology transfer, but ITAR needs to be discussed in non-aviation.

Noshow wrote:
In the old days the main russian issue used to be engine time on wing between overhauls and maintenance. And parts...
How does today's PD-14 compare now?

The Russian engines used to have issues with:
Time between overhauls.
Time to rebuild components
Spare parts availability (hurt Su100)

For example on components: decades ago, when I started my career, my class at Pratt on engine design included teardowns of a PW4000, a Russian engine, and a few RR and GE components (actual parts, not just a PowerPoint). A US accessory gearbox was heavier as it was bolted together, the Russian was welded. That US gearbox could be removed, rebuilt, and reinstalled in about 35 minutes. The Russian one had to be sent to the factory to cut a weld.

To match current LEAP fuel burn requires a jump in technology. Can the PD-14 do so reliably? Also, LEAP is getting ready for CMC parts. The GE9x is the first engine to have this technology. Now I realize fuel burn isn't as critical as it was 2 months ago, but there will be a performance and cost hit switching engines.

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Aesma
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:05 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
As dumb as it sounds, I agree with this. China has a VERY big precedent of doing this sort of thing. Look at France, n1 in nuclear energy. Sold some top of the line EPR reactors to them in the early 2000's with - of course - a bit of technological transfer, no other way to get the contract. China later reverse engineered, or at least, ripped off the design, made it cheaper and slightly worse. Would then go on to sell it, massively undercutting the French design. Look at Hinkley point, sure its a French design, but its basically chinese. If China can do that with France's nuclear industry, they will surely be considering doing the same or similar with the LEAP engine.


If my country decides to make nuclear plants again, then it will use home made designs, if not, I'm not sure there is a market for nuclear anyway.

And nuclear isn't that advanced technologically, the main issue is making it safe, the Chinese have cut corners there, let's hope there was enough margin in the initial design...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
WayexTDI
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:47 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
It may be too late, China is already in talks with UEC to supply the PD-14 for the C919. Can't find the article anymore, but they mentioned it is a done deal. The world will be a very different place after this mess of the coronavirus, and I think that the master chess players are ahead of the game already, and no, unfortunately they are not in the USA.

You are correct that the world will be a different place after COVID-19: it might be very probable that people pull out of China. This "experiment" where most transportation has been brought to a halt has shown that countries cannot rely upon China; and leaders believe China has drastically downplayed the extent of the pandemic in their own country.
I personally believe we need to drastically pull out of China and bring back manufacturing in each countries; question is, do we still have the knowledge to do so?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Raptormodeller wrote:
As dumb as it sounds, I agree with this. China has a VERY big precedent of doing this sort of thing. Look at France, n1 in nuclear energy. Sold some top of the line EPR reactors to them in the early 2000's with - of course - a bit of technological transfer, no other way to get the contract. China later reverse engineered, or at least, ripped off the design, made it cheaper and slightly worse. Would then go on to sell it, massively undercutting the French design. Look at Hinkley point, sure its a French design, but its basically chinese. If China can do that with France's nuclear industry, they will surely be considering doing the same or similar with the LEAP engine.


I don't think this is a good example. Even French technology and manufacturing cannot produce nuclear power plants cheaply enough to justify building them. The last few they are/have been building are running hugely overcost. I think the problem is the various accidents, not just the headline ones, have dictated ever more complication for design, and all are costly. Bill Gates, others, and China are working on advanced reactors which have inherently safer physics and smaller. 1+ gigawatts is just to much for a utility to absorb at once.
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bennett123
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:59 pm

As far as I can see, there is no point, in terms of stopping access to technology, of stopping sales of LEAP for the C919, unless they also stop sales of the B737MAX to China.

Even then, if a B737MAX flying past China hit a technical issue and needed to an engine replacement would parts be able to be flown into China
 
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Aesma
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
It may be too late, China is already in talks with UEC to supply the PD-14 for the C919. Can't find the article anymore, but they mentioned it is a done deal. The world will be a very different place after this mess of the coronavirus, and I think that the master chess players are ahead of the game already, and no, unfortunately they are not in the USA.

You are correct that the world will be a different place after COVID-19: it might be very probable that people pull out of China. This "experiment" where most transportation has been brought to a halt has shown that countries cannot rely upon China; and leaders believe China has drastically downplayed the extent of the pandemic in their own country.
I personally believe we need to drastically pull out of China and bring back manufacturing in each countries; question is, do we still have the knowledge to do so?


Chinese production to export or re-import back might diminish, but don't forget China is the biggest market of all, companies won't want to pull out from that.
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LAX772LR
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:34 am

TWA772LR wrote:
which they already have as well as various fully constructed cutting edge civilian jetliners.

What specific aspects about them are "cutting edge"...?
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TWA772LR
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
which they already have as well as various fully constructed cutting edge civilian jetliners.

What specific aspects about them are "cutting edge"...?

I'm talking about the 787s, A350s, A380s et al which are used by Chinese airlines which are state-run enterprises.
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janders
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Re: US Gov May Stop Engine, Avionics Deliveries to C919

Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:14 pm

As reminder let's keep focused on aviation and avoid political commentary.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle

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