RvA wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

False. DL has both a larger widebody fleet and also is generating more RPMs from long haul flights than AA. Try again.

Jeremy

Nothing false about DL giving too much flying to its partners ALPA has won several arbitrations on it. And not all DL’s widebodies fly international

“The arbitrator who heard the first four Korean Air Joint Venture (JV) Scope grievances—MEC Grievance Numbers 18-22, 19-03, 19-04 and 19-08— has issued a liability award on all eight Scope violations alleged by ALPA. The arbitrator sustained all four grievances and confirmed that the Company violated Section 1 of the PWA in all eight instances, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.


This ruling reaffirms the Company's obligation to abide by the terms of the Delta pilots' PWA and its Scope clause.

ALPA will post the arbitrator's decision on the MEC website shortly.

Key Takeaways

The arbitrator sustained ALPA's first four Scope grievances related to the Korean Air JV.
The arbitrator held that the Company committed a total of eight violations of Section 1 of the PWA, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.
Now that these violations have been proven, the case will proceed to a second phase to determine the remedies for the violations.”

And the just the latest one.

Isn’t Delta the single largest airline in terms of seats across the Atlantic? Could be BA as well but either way DL is top 3 so not sure what this outsourcing is comment is all about. Also, giving some routes to partners who do better because of what point of sale bias a route might have makes sense if in a JV. It benefits everyone.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with my comment about smaller premium cabins yet making more profit.

Their pilots beg to differ.

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... Va3c2aizJ/

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... -partners/

“ DO PILOTS HAVE PROOF?

They say they do, and as evidence, they point to Delta’s flights between the United States and London Heathrow.

Delta and Virgin Atlantic won anti-trust immunity in 2013. Since then, the union said, Virgin Atlantic has grown its U.S.-UK block hours — that’s the time scheduled from gate-to-gate — by 33 percent, while Delta’s have increased just 2 percent.“

“ IS THIS REALLY LABOR ARBITRAGE?

The union says Delta has turned over routes to Virgin Atlantic because the UK airline has cheaper labor costs.

“Among other disparities, Virgin pilots who fly between the US and UK are compensated at a significantly lower rates than are Delta pilots,” the union said.

In addition, the union said, Virgin Atlantic’s regulatory rules are different. Between London and New York, Virgin Atlantic carries only two pilots, while Delta needs three. Over time, that can amount to significant savings.

“The pilots appear to have a decent argument, if Delta is using Virgin Atlantic to essentially outsource its transatlantic flying,” said Madhu Unnikrishnan, editor of Skift Airline Weekly. “Labor arbitrage is not good for labor relations, and if the new joint venture allows for this — choosing one carrier to grow over the other and reducing the number of pilots needed for flights — then it could sour Delta’s relations with its pilots.”

Why is Delta More Profitable?

Delta - "Quality Service"

Boof02671 wrote:

RvA wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Nothing false about DL giving too much flying to its partners ALPA has won several arbitrations on it. And not all DL’s widebodies fly international

“The arbitrator who heard the first four Korean Air Joint Venture (JV) Scope grievances—MEC Grievance Numbers 18-22, 19-03, 19-04 and 19-08— has issued a liability award on all eight Scope violations alleged by ALPA. The arbitrator sustained all four grievances and confirmed that the Company violated Section 1 of the PWA in all eight instances, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.


This ruling reaffirms the Company's obligation to abide by the terms of the Delta pilots' PWA and its Scope clause.

ALPA will post the arbitrator's decision on the MEC website shortly.

Key Takeaways

The arbitrator sustained ALPA's first four Scope grievances related to the Korean Air JV.
The arbitrator held that the Company committed a total of eight violations of Section 1 of the PWA, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.
Now that these violations have been proven, the case will proceed to a second phase to determine the remedies for the violations.”

And the just the latest one.

Isn’t Delta the single largest airline in terms of seats across the Atlantic? Could be BA as well but either way DL is top 3 so not sure what this outsourcing is comment is all about. Also, giving some routes to partners who do better because of what point of sale bias a route might have makes sense if in a JV. It benefits everyone.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with my comment about smaller premium cabins yet making more profit.

Their pilots beg to differ.

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... Va3c2aizJ/

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... -partners/

“ DO PILOTS HAVE PROOF?

They say they do, and as evidence, they point to Delta’s flights between the United States and London Heathrow.

Delta and Virgin Atlantic won anti-trust immunity in 2013. Since then, the union said, Virgin Atlantic has grown its U.S.-UK block hours — that’s the time scheduled from gate-to-gate — by 33 percent, while Delta’s have increased just 2 percent.“

“ IS THIS REALLY LABOR ARBITRAGE?

The union says Delta has turned over routes to Virgin Atlantic because the UK airline has cheaper labor costs.

“Among other disparities, Virgin pilots who fly between the US and UK are compensated at a significantly lower rates than are Delta pilots,” the union said.

In addition, the union said, Virgin Atlantic’s regulatory rules are different. Between London and New York, Virgin Atlantic carries only two pilots, while Delta needs three. Over time, that can amount to significant savings.

“The pilots appear to have a decent argument, if Delta is using Virgin Atlantic to essentially outsource its transatlantic flying,” said Madhu Unnikrishnan, editor of Skift Airline Weekly. “Labor arbitrage is not good for labor relations, and if the new joint venture allows for this — choosing one carrier to grow over the other and reducing the number of pilots needed for flights — then it could sour Delta’s relations with its pilots.”

The pilots beg to differ about what? DL’s the largest US carrier across the Atlantic and 2nd largest across the Pacific. Your continued posting of DL pilots disagreement regarding the amount of JV flying is meaningless to the fact that DL has more international traffic than AA, a falsehood you earlier claimed.

Jeremy

My opinion of course, I think Delta has a better product, and household name. If I was looking to book a flight, and the same fare was offered by DL and AA, I am booking DL. Having flown both DL and AA alot recently, I found my DL flights to be much more comfortable. The first class product DL has is also better IMO.

Before anyone cooks me, it's my opinion! And, of course, I am an Armchair CEO!

I also think DL has the stronger hubs, which I am sure helps in terms of getting cheeks in the seats.

As for UA? I have also flown them a few times recently, and found their product to be better than AA's. Same situation if the fares were the same, I would book UA before I booked AA. AA needs to invest more into their passenger experience IMO.

I guess I don’t understand the importance of Virgin Atlantic’s presence in the DL/AF/KL TATL JV. VS had a solid hub at LHR but most of it is North American feed, right? The only connections that a DL customer could make in LHR on VS is JNB, LOS, and TLV, unless I’m missing something? Why couldn’t DL just fly to LHR from all their hubs and focus cities if they really wanted to feed LHR for whatever reason?

(Not taking a shot at VS, just trying to understand their importance.)

SESGDL wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

RvA wrote:

Isn’t Delta the single largest airline in terms of seats across the Atlantic? Could be BA as well but either way DL is top 3 so not sure what this outsourcing is comment is all about. Also, giving some routes to partners who do better because of what point of sale bias a route might have makes sense if in a JV. It benefits everyone.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with my comment about smaller premium cabins yet making more profit.

Their pilots beg to differ.

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... Va3c2aizJ/

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... -partners/

“ DO PILOTS HAVE PROOF?

They say they do, and as evidence, they point to Delta’s flights between the United States and London Heathrow.

Delta and Virgin Atlantic won anti-trust immunity in 2013. Since then, the union said, Virgin Atlantic has grown its U.S.-UK block hours — that’s the time scheduled from gate-to-gate — by 33 percent, while Delta’s have increased just 2 percent.“

“ IS THIS REALLY LABOR ARBITRAGE?

The union says Delta has turned over routes to Virgin Atlantic because the UK airline has cheaper labor costs.

“Among other disparities, Virgin pilots who fly between the US and UK are compensated at a significantly lower rates than are Delta pilots,” the union said.

In addition, the union said, Virgin Atlantic’s regulatory rules are different. Between London and New York, Virgin Atlantic carries only two pilots, while Delta needs three. Over time, that can amount to significant savings.

“The pilots appear to have a decent argument, if Delta is using Virgin Atlantic to essentially outsource its transatlantic flying,” said Madhu Unnikrishnan, editor of Skift Airline Weekly. “Labor arbitrage is not good for labor relations, and if the new joint venture allows for this — choosing one carrier to grow over the other and reducing the number of pilots needed for flights — then it could sour Delta’s relations with its pilots.”

The pilots beg to differ about what? DL’s the largest US carrier across the Atlantic and 2nd largest across the Pacific. Your continued posting of DL pilots disagreement regarding the amount of JV flying is meaningless to the fact that DL has more international traffic than AA, a falsehood you earlier claimed.

Jeremy

It has plenty of meaning that DL has lost at least two arbitration’s by giving up too much international flying to cheaper JV partners.

MLIAA wrote:

I guess I don’t understand the importance of Virgin Atlantic’s presence in the DL/AF/KL TATL JV. VS had a solid hub at LHR but most of it is North American feed, right? The only connections that a DL customer could make in LHR on VS is JNB, LOS, and TLV, unless I’m missing something? Why couldn’t DL just fly to LHR from all their hubs and focus cities if they really wanted to feed LHR for whatever reason?

(Not taking a shot at VS, just trying to understand their importance.)

The importance of VS to the JV is that LHR is the single biggest European market from the U.S., and it's a premium market where high value travelers want nonstops - not to backtrack through AMS or CDG. Without VS in the JV, they'd basically be leaving that market on the table.

Also, besides the destinations you mentioned, VS can handle some connections to DEL and BOM. That's not insignificant given the capacity DL/AF/KL lost when 9W went under.

AZORMP wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

Uh, that is most definitely NOT true, unless you live in Atlanta, Detroit, or Minneapolis. DL's network is largely worthless to large chunks of the country. But where the do exist, they seem to dominate.

If you are looking for an airline that is largely worthless outside of their hubs, you want UA, not DL.

Agreed. All three airlines have a field station here in AZO. In my experience, UA and AA are consistently delayed for mechanical issues, weather in ORD, and are subject to cancellation if the slightest thing goes wrong in O'Hare. DL's team does everything they can to re-accommodate passengers and make delays better by providing a cart with snacks and drinks instead of forcing passengers to buy the outrageously priced airport food. There have been a couple of occasions where DL staff worked with DCI carriers to avoid cancellations by running extra sections. They bend over backward to ensure that the passenger is treated well and is aware of all their options. One of the better DGS/Unifi stations I've traveled through.

AZO native here! Growing up, we were NW loyalists kind of by default - they had by far the dominant position in AZO for many years. Those 20 minute DC-9 hops to DTW were awesome! I even stayed somewhat loyal to DL prior to moving to OKC. As much as DL still has superior frequencies to AZO compared to UA or AA, the shortcomings in the rest of their network and in Skyteam aren't enough to sway me, at least for now. AA's product and customer service are trash for the most part, but their network blows DL out of the water in many ways (and especially if you live down south).

9w748capt wrote:

AA's product and customer service are trash for the most part, but their network blows DL out of the water in many ways (and especially if you live down south).

[/quote][/quote]

What part of the south? Because DL has a large network in the Southern US, serving some cities AA doesn't. IJS

n2dru wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

AA's product and customer service are trash for the most part, but their network blows DL out of the water in many ways (and especially if you live down south).

What part of the south? Because Delta has a very extensive network in the Southern US, serving a lot of cities AA doesn't. IJS

Comparing South to South..

DL Only Service: GTR, CSG, DHN, ABY, SSI, VLD
AA Only Service: PIB, MEI, FLO, PGV, HTS, LYH (plus all of the Texas cities that is DL's glaring hole)

Taking away Georgia and Texas where each should have a natural strength, AA serves more airports in the South.

alasizon wrote:

n2dru wrote:

9w748capt wrote:

AA's product and customer service are trash for the most part, but their network blows DL out of the water in many ways (and especially if you live down south).

What part of the south? Because Delta has a very extensive network in the Southern US, serving a lot of cities AA doesn't. IJS

Comparing South to South..

DL Only Service: GTR, CSG, DHN, ABY, SSI, VLD
AA Only Service: PIB, MEI, FLO, PGV, HTS, LYH (plus all of the Texas cities that is DL's glaring hole)

Taking away Georgia and Texas where each should have a natural strength, AA serves more airports in the South.

I don't consider TX as the SE US, more South central. That's why I asked what part of the south was being referenced. They are equally matched when it comes to unique cities served in the SE US.

Delta has very strong fortress hubs compared to United. But AA also has stronger fortress hubs than United, but AA does terrible on TransAtlantic and TransPacific which drags down earnings.

Delta's Top Domestic Markets* (October 2018 - September 2019)
34.25m Atlanta, GA 72.86%
9.24m Minneapolis, MN 53.34%
8.00m New York, NY 28.17% (all airports in NYC, but not Newark)
7.83m Detroit, MI 48.83%
6.35m Salt Lake City, UT 52.16%
68.21m Other 10.01%

American Top Domestic Markets* (December 2018 - November 2019)
21.02m Dallas/Fort Worth, TX 68.27%
13.15m Charlotte, NC 59.48%
8.97m Chicago, IL 20.60%
7.89m Phoenix, AZ 35.83%
7.39m Miami, FL 69.08%
66.41m Other 9.82%

United Top Domestic Markets* (December 2018 - November 2019)
10.64m Chicago, IL 24.44%
10.00m Denver, CO 31.47%
8.41m San Francisco, CA 41.34%
8.35m Houston, TX 36.41%
8.17m Newark, NJ 51.22%
41.59m Other 6.20%

Southwest Top Domestic Markets* (December 2018 - November 2019)
9.27m Chicago, IL 21.29%
9.08m Denver, CO 28.58%
8.47m Las Vegas, NV 37.67%
8.23m Baltimore, MD 65.41%
7.52m Dallas, TX 94.10%
115.32m Other 16.78%

* Based on total enplaned passengers at all airports in a city.
** The table shows the carrier's share in each of the markets.

Boof02671 wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Their pilots beg to differ.

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... Va3c2aizJ/

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... -partners/

“ DO PILOTS HAVE PROOF?

They say they do, and as evidence, they point to Delta’s flights between the United States and London Heathrow.

Delta and Virgin Atlantic won anti-trust immunity in 2013. Since then, the union said, Virgin Atlantic has grown its U.S.-UK block hours — that’s the time scheduled from gate-to-gate — by 33 percent, while Delta’s have increased just 2 percent.“

“ IS THIS REALLY LABOR ARBITRAGE?

The union says Delta has turned over routes to Virgin Atlantic because the UK airline has cheaper labor costs.

“Among other disparities, Virgin pilots who fly between the US and UK are compensated at a significantly lower rates than are Delta pilots,” the union said.

In addition, the union said, Virgin Atlantic’s regulatory rules are different. Between London and New York, Virgin Atlantic carries only two pilots, while Delta needs three. Over time, that can amount to significant savings.

“The pilots appear to have a decent argument, if Delta is using Virgin Atlantic to essentially outsource its transatlantic flying,” said Madhu Unnikrishnan, editor of Skift Airline Weekly. “Labor arbitrage is not good for labor relations, and if the new joint venture allows for this — choosing one carrier to grow over the other and reducing the number of pilots needed for flights — then it could sour Delta’s relations with its pilots.”

The pilots beg to differ about what? DL’s the largest US carrier across the Atlantic and 2nd largest across the Pacific. Your continued posting of DL pilots disagreement regarding the amount of JV flying is meaningless to the fact that DL has more international traffic than AA, a falsehood you earlier claimed.

Jeremy

It has plenty of meaning that DL has lost at least two arbitration’s by giving up too much international flying to cheaper JV partners.

As said it isn’t all about the pilots. Airlines give routes to partners too if they can be more successful at it. Certain O&D heavy routes with a lot of Europe point of sale will work better with their home carriers than a US carrier. Brits will generally favour Virgin over Delta if they have a choice etc.
Would you rather Delta gives routes to their pilots to make less money, or give it to their partners who will provide more to the overall JV pot and then the DL aircraft and crew can be used elsewhere.

NWAESC wrote:

AZORMP wrote:

There have been a couple of occasions where DL staff worked with DCI carriers to avoid cancellations by running extra sections.

Being able to do that- or even having a different DCI carrier run the flight- is a huge tactical advantage.

Does this happen at AA or UA?

Just last week there was a flight that was originally an OO flight that switched over to 9E because OO couldn’t get it together and the aircraft was stuck in Lansing for MTC issues.

I haven’t heard/seen it happening at AA/UA here. More often then not they just flat-out cancel.

RvA wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

SESGDL wrote:

The pilots beg to differ about what? DL’s the largest US carrier across the Atlantic and 2nd largest across the Pacific. Your continued posting of DL pilots disagreement regarding the amount of JV flying is meaningless to the fact that DL has more international traffic than AA, a falsehood you earlier claimed.

Jeremy

It has plenty of meaning that DL has lost at least two arbitration’s by giving up too much international flying to cheaper JV partners.

As said it isn’t all about the pilots. Airlines give routes to partners too if they can be more successful at it. Certain O&D heavy routes with a lot of Europe point of sale will work better with their home carriers than a US carrier. Brits will generally favour Virgin over Delta if they have a choice etc.
Would you rather Delta gives routes to their pilots to make less money, or give it to their partners who will provide more to the overall JV pot and then the DL aircraft and crew can be used elsewhere.

The thread is why DL is more profitable than AA or UA I gave an example why.

On any given average day, half of the Delta domestic passengers are flying either into or out of Atlanta. It seems to me that gives Delta a tremendous logistics advantage that United doesn't have. United must bank their flights to permit efficient layover times. Given the sheer numbers of passengers at ATL, it is fairly easy for almost any passenger to transfer to another flight.

Passengers boarding jets per year | % of airport boardings by airlines
34.25m Atlanta, GA 72.86%
21.02m Dallas/Fort Worth, TX 68.27% American
13.15m Charlotte, NC 59.48% American
10.64m Chicago, IL 24.44% United (ORD)
10.00m Denver, CO 31.47% United
9.27m Chicago, IL 21.29% Southwest (MDW)

The problem with that argument is that American should be able to take better advantage of having the #2 and #3 operations to be more profitable. It's like the newer more fuel efficient jet argument. American has the newest most fuel efficient fleet of the US3, but it has by far the lowest profits.

Of course, United having 5 nearly equal size domestic operations hubs (SFO, ORD, DEN, EWR, and IAH) and 2 smaller hubs (LAX & IAD) gives it a better launching pad for international routes. United's widebody fleet is roughly 1/3 larger than Delta or American.

Widebody fleet
200 United Airlines 14.9 years average
154 Delta Airlines 16.5 years average
149 American 11.9 years average

Narrowbody fleet
597 United Airlines 15.9 years average
756 Delta Airlines 14.9 years average
796 American 11.0 years average

Better hubs. No one should deny that.

n2dru wrote:

alasizon wrote:

n2dru wrote:

What part of the south? Because Delta has a very extensive network in the Southern US, serving a lot of cities AA doesn't. IJS

Comparing South to South..

DL Only Service: GTR, CSG, DHN, ABY, SSI, VLD
AA Only Service: PIB, MEI, FLO, PGV, HTS, LYH (plus all of the Texas cities that is DL's glaring hole)

Taking away Georgia and Texas where each should have a natural strength, AA serves more airports in the South.

I don't consider TX as the SE US, more South central. That's why I asked what part of the south was being referenced. They are equally matched when it comes to unique cities served in the SE US.

I think the point being made about AA vs DL network strength in the South (call it the Deep South to your point) is about where you connect and backtracking.
Delta has the biggest hub in the South, yes. That’s obviously useful since it connects to many places uniquely and is bigger internationally than CLT (and dfw too, I think if you exclude small Mexico cities). I certainly think that’s one really good measure of network strength to use.
But if you’re living in BTR or JAN or BHM (or smaller cities in the SE), think about Delta vs AA to them: if they want to fly to PDX or PWM, Delta can get them there through Atlanta, but that’s a backtrack to pdx, not to PWM.
AA can easily get the passenger on btr-dfw-pdx or btr-clt-pwm. It’s obviously a result of their merger that makes it stronger in the SE and AA can do that exact same type of thing in nearly any decent SE market now. And those examples completely ignore the random Smattering of SE cities that Miami serves as well for those going from jax or TLH southward that don’t want to backtrack to ATL.
A lot of SE cities also have service to other major AA hubs like dca or ORD, usually more useful nonstop destinations to travelers than Detroit or MSP. Delta certainly does have some one off service to LGA that‘a similar in idea to what aa seems to do with dca in random service in the SE

In terms of “better network”, I guess that’s in the eye of the customer and what they value, just trying to elaborate on what, I think, the original Poster was saying.

Boof02671 wrote:

RvA wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

It has plenty of meaning that DL has lost at least two arbitration’s by giving up too much international flying to cheaper JV partners.

As said it isn’t all about the pilots. Airlines give routes to partners too if they can be more successful at it. Certain O&D heavy routes with a lot of Europe point of sale will work better with their home carriers than a US carrier. Brits will generally favour Virgin over Delta if they have a choice etc.
Would you rather Delta gives routes to their pilots to make less money, or give it to their partners who will provide more to the overall JV pot and then the DL aircraft and crew can be used elsewhere.

The thread is why DL is more profitable than AA or UA I gave an example why.

Fair enoigh. Must be me then as I am not understanding what you’re talking about in the context of this thread.

Boof02671 wrote:

RvA wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Nothing false about DL giving too much flying to its partners ALPA has won several arbitrations on it. And not all DL’s widebodies fly international

“The arbitrator who heard the first four Korean Air Joint Venture (JV) Scope grievances—MEC Grievance Numbers 18-22, 19-03, 19-04 and 19-08— has issued a liability award on all eight Scope violations alleged by ALPA. The arbitrator sustained all four grievances and confirmed that the Company violated Section 1 of the PWA in all eight instances, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.


This ruling reaffirms the Company's obligation to abide by the terms of the Delta pilots' PWA and its Scope clause.

ALPA will post the arbitrator's decision on the MEC website shortly.

Key Takeaways

The arbitrator sustained ALPA's first four Scope grievances related to the Korean Air JV.
The arbitrator held that the Company committed a total of eight violations of Section 1 of the PWA, including one violation of Section 1 E. 10. and seven violations of Section 1 E. 8.
Now that these violations have been proven, the case will proceed to a second phase to determine the remedies for the violations.”

And the just the latest one.

Isn’t Delta the single largest airline in terms of seats across the Atlantic? Could be BA as well but either way DL is top 3 so not sure what this outsourcing is comment is all about. Also, giving some routes to partners who do better because of what point of sale bias a route might have makes sense if in a JV. It benefits everyone.

Anyway, none of this has anything to do with my comment about smaller premium cabins yet making more profit.

Their pilots beg to differ.

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/delta- ... Va3c2aizJ/

https://skift.com/2019/08/23/delta-pilo ... -partners/

“ DO PILOTS HAVE PROOF?

They say they do, and as evidence, they point to Delta’s flights between the United States and London Heathrow.

Delta and Virgin Atlantic won anti-trust immunity in 2013. Since then, the union said, Virgin Atlantic has grown its U.S.-UK block hours — that’s the time scheduled from gate-to-gate — by 33 percent, while Delta’s have increased just 2 percent.“

“ IS THIS REALLY LABOR ARBITRAGE?

The union says Delta has turned over routes to Virgin Atlantic because the UK airline has cheaper labor costs.

“Among other disparities, Virgin pilots who fly between the US and UK are compensated at a significantly lower rates than are Delta pilots,” the union said.

In addition, the union said, Virgin Atlantic’s regulatory rules are different. Between London and New York, Virgin Atlantic carries only two pilots, while Delta needs three. Over time, that can amount to significant savings.

“The pilots appear to have a decent argument, if Delta is using Virgin Atlantic to essentially outsource its transatlantic flying,” said Madhu Unnikrishnan, editor of Skift Airline Weekly. “Labor arbitrage is not good for labor relations, and if the new joint venture allows for this — choosing one carrier to grow over the other and reducing the number of pilots needed for flights — then it could sour Delta’s relations with its pilots.”

Such short-sightedness on the part of Delta's pilots. They want every cent they can scrounge, while Delta is setting up the first truly worldwide alliance that DL will ultimately control and perhaps merge into DL Universal, the first international airline AND THE BIGGEST. Then count your money and run off to your banks, pilots. Cool your jets for now, guys and girls. If Delta continues to post earnings double those of their two US3 peers, there will be more adventures such as the failed JL deal, the minor VS deal, the MU deal, and the perhaps successful LA deal - let's wait and see what Chile and Brazil say about that. How about buying HU in China? ET in Africa? AZ (no please!). Many things can be done with billions of profits double those of your competitors.

You would have to think that for the past year, the 737 MAX situation has played to Delta's favor. AA, UA, and WN have had to cancel tens of thousands of flights due to the lack of narrowbody aircraft. Delta, having no MAX jets in its fleet, has been able to fly the schedule that its wanted for the last year, and probably picking up traffic from the other three.

I believe that UA's biggest hub is ORD. We know that whether it's thunderstorms in the summer, snow or the winter, or other weather situations, ORD is prone to delays. That has to hurt UA's financial and operational performance.

ATL does get thunderstorms, but snow is not a problem. So, ATL keeps Delta running.

And as others have said, ATL has much lower costs. I think ORD is either the most-expensive or second-most expensive airport, in terms of airline operations. That hits AA and UA.

chepos wrote:

spinotter wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

And yet Delta agreed to those terms in the CBA and has blatantly violated them several times.

DL management has a greater goal in mind than the pilots' personal goals, do they not? The pilots will eventually be working for DL Universal, will they not?

DL universal???????


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why not? We have to keep the name Delta, right? Next route: Atlanta to the main Luna base (ATL-LUN).

Boof..oh give it a rest. DL employees, flight attendants included, are generally very happy. As for this talk of not being compensated as much as UA or AA..really? Do you know how much they just got last week in profit sharing?? Flight attendants got a very nice check. I know of FAs that earn 100K +. They also have the best travel benefits in the industry. How many airlines put you automatically in J or F if room? I know you have a beef with DL..cool, that’s your right. But stop with the blatant untruth.

JAMBOJET wrote:

But if you’re living in BTR or JAN or BHM (or smaller cities in the SE), think about Delta vs AA to them: if they want to fly to PDX or PWM, Delta can get them there through Atlanta, but that’s a backtrack to pdx, not to PWM.
AA can easily get the passenger on btr-dfw-pdx or btr-clt-pwm. It’s obviously a result of their merger that makes it stronger in the SE and AA can do that exact same type of thing in nearly any decent SE market now. And those examples completely ignore the random Smattering of SE cities that Miami serves as well for those going from jax or TLH southward that don’t want to backtrack to ATL.
A lot of SE cities also have service to other major AA hubs like dca or ORD, usually more useful nonstop destinations to travelers than Detroit or MSP. Delta certainly does have some one off service to LGA that‘a similar in idea to what aa seems to do with dca in random service in the SE

In terms of “better network”, I guess that’s in the eye of the customer and what they value, just trying to elaborate on what, I think, the original Poster was saying.

Despite what you say DL has larger marketshare in JAN and BHM and looks about even in BTR. Obviously, AA has the advantage in Texas, but DL appears to have larger marketshare in all the major Florida airports outside of MIA.

toobz wrote:

Boof..oh give it a rest. DL employees, flight attendants included, are generally very happy. As for this talk of not being compensated as much as UA or AA..really? Do you know how much they just got last week in profit sharing?? Flight attendants got a very nice check. I know of FAs that earn 100K +. They also have the best travel benefits in the industry. How many airlines put you automatically in J or F if room? I know you have a beef with DL..cool, that’s your right. But stop with the blatant untruth.

NRSA travel on AA in F/J or PE is free of charge for employees. I believe that is the case for UA as well. Aren’t travel benefits on the US3 pretty comparable?


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cledaybuck wrote:

JAMBOJET wrote:

But if you’re living in BTR or JAN or BHM (or smaller cities in the SE), think about Delta vs AA to them: if they want to fly to PDX or PWM, Delta can get them there through Atlanta, but that’s a backtrack to pdx, not to PWM.
AA can easily get the passenger on btr-dfw-pdx or btr-clt-pwm. It’s obviously a result of their merger that makes it stronger in the SE and AA can do that exact same type of thing in nearly any decent SE market now. And those examples completely ignore the random Smattering of SE cities that Miami serves as well for those going from jax or TLH southward that don’t want to backtrack to ATL.
A lot of SE cities also have service to other major AA hubs like dca or ORD, usually more useful nonstop destinations to travelers than Detroit or MSP. Delta certainly does have some one off service to LGA that‘a similar in idea to what aa seems to do with dca in random service in the SE

In terms of “better network”, I guess that’s in the eye of the customer and what they value, just trying to elaborate on what, I think, the original Poster was saying.

Despite what you say DL has larger marketshare in JAN and BHM and looks about even in BTR. Obviously, AA has the advantage in Texas, but DL appears to have larger marketshare in all the major Florida airports outside of MIA.

Don’t think anyone talked about market share. The question is better network in the South. Seems like the market share question will be a topic for 3-4 years from now when dfw and CLT reach their full growth plans which seems kind of obviously geared around this obvious network advantage of dfw and clt working together in the SE among many things. It’s a rather obvious long term network advantage in the SE outside of Atlanta.
Not trying to insinuate anyone is bigger anywhere, Delta or AA/UA.

JAMBOJET wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

JAMBOJET wrote:

But if you’re living in BTR or JAN or BHM (or smaller cities in the SE), think about Delta vs AA to them: if they want to fly to PDX or PWM, Delta can get them there through Atlanta, but that’s a backtrack to pdx, not to PWM.
AA can easily get the passenger on btr-dfw-pdx or btr-clt-pwm. It’s obviously a result of their merger that makes it stronger in the SE and AA can do that exact same type of thing in nearly any decent SE market now. And those examples completely ignore the random Smattering of SE cities that Miami serves as well for those going from jax or TLH southward that don’t want to backtrack to ATL.
A lot of SE cities also have service to other major AA hubs like dca or ORD, usually more useful nonstop destinations to travelers than Detroit or MSP. Delta certainly does have some one off service to LGA that‘a similar in idea to what aa seems to do with dca in random service in the SE

In terms of “better network”, I guess that’s in the eye of the customer and what they value, just trying to elaborate on what, I think, the original Poster was saying.

Despite what you say DL has larger marketshare in JAN and BHM and looks about even in BTR. Obviously, AA has the advantage in Texas, but DL appears to have larger marketshare in all the major Florida airports outside of MIA.

Don’t think anyone talked about market share. The question is better network in the South. Seems like the market share question will be a topic for 3-4 years from now when dfw and CLT reach their full growth plans which seems kind of obviously geared around this obvious network advantage of dfw and clt working together in the SE among many things. It’s a rather obvious long term network advantage in the SE outside of Atlanta.
Not trying to insinuate anyone is bigger anywhere, Delta or AA/UA.

Well Delta's talking of focusing on building core hubs more for a few years so we might see a south east battle developing bit I expect Delta to win because AA has essentially a split hub structure which is a major disadvantage

dstblj52 wrote:

JAMBOJET wrote:

cledaybuck wrote:

Despite what you say DL has larger marketshare in JAN and BHM and looks about even in BTR. Obviously, AA has the advantage in Texas, but DL appears to have larger marketshare in all the major Florida airports outside of MIA.

Don’t think anyone talked about market share. The question is better network in the South. Seems like the market share question will be a topic for 3-4 years from now when dfw and CLT reach their full growth plans which seems kind of obviously geared around this obvious network advantage of dfw and clt working together in the SE among many things. It’s a rather obvious long term network advantage in the SE outside of Atlanta.
Not trying to insinuate anyone is bigger anywhere, Delta or AA/UA.

Well Delta's talking of focusing on building core hubs more for a few years so we might see a south east battle developing bit I expect Delta to win because AA has essentially a split hub structure which is a major disadvantage

True
Definitely a fun time to grab some popcorn and be an airline industry fan!

chepos wrote:

toobz wrote:

Boof..oh give it a rest. DL employees, flight attendants included, are generally very happy. As for this talk of not being compensated as much as UA or AA..really? Do you know how much they just got last week in profit sharing?? Flight attendants got a very nice check. I know of FAs that earn 100K +. They also have the best travel benefits in the industry. How many airlines put you automatically in J or F if room? I know you have a beef with DL..cool, that’s your right. But stop with the blatant untruth.

NRSA travel on AA in F/J or PE is free of charge for employees. I believe that is the case for UA as well. Aren’t travel benefits on the US3 pretty comparable?




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Ah thanks Chepos. Has it always been like that?? I remembered there was a small fee to upgrade. But yeah US airlines tend to have the best NRSA bennies.

toobz wrote:

Boof..oh give it a rest. DL employees, flight attendants included, are generally very happy. As for this talk of not being compensated as much as UA or AA..really? Do you know how much they just got last week in profit sharing?? Flight attendants got a very nice check. I know of FAs that earn 100K +. They also have the best travel benefits in the industry. How many airlines put you automatically in J or F if room? I know you have a beef with DL..cool, that’s your right. But stop with the blatant untruth.

Facts speak, they earn less than AA and UA on an overall basis.
Not untrue MIT AiRline Data project speaks for itself.

Travel benefits doesn’t pay the bills.

DL’s own hometown paper even says so.

https://www.ajc.com/business/delta-empl ... I/amp.html

But the value of pension and benefit packages was lower at Delta by more than $3,000 compared with American, United and Southwest, Delta’s biggest U.S. rivals.

DL pilots are doing just fine- especially after this past Valentine's Day. And good on them for being able to arbitrate grievances. But if anyone thinks that a few JV routes are THE reason why DL consistently leads the pack (for now), they're simply not seeing the big picture.

NRSA travel on AA in F/J or PE is free of charge for employees. I believe that is the case for UA as well. Aren’t travel benefits on the US3 pretty comparable?


DL BY FAR has the best flight benefits! i know my mom is with UA and have friends at AA,the only thing i like with UA is if your employee is flying with buddy passes they fly with your seniority not the same with DL.Only my 2 cents since i have non rev privileges on DL/UA.Congrads to my fellow DL employees it was a very nice VALENTINES DAY!!

Is there any objective data that shows DL with a statistically significant higher amount of flying by JV/alliance partners than AA/UA?

I mostly fly WN, simply because they are going where I go.
However, there are a couple of routes where I have to choose either UA or DL. Generally I take DL and I discovered, and I don't know why, I'm often inclined to buy a drink and a snack on DL. On a round-trip that's maybe $30 more that DL is getting from me that I don't tend to give to UA on the same route. Maybe it's also a time of day thing, who knows... Weird... but subconsciously perhaps the better experience is impelling me to spend more? Obviously this is purely anecdotal, but I thought I'd speak up anyway.

LTCM wrote:

Better hubs. No one should deny that.

But are you saying that MSP or DTW is a better hub than ORD? Or SLC better than DEN? In what measures that allow DL to earn double the profit of the other two US3?

spinotter wrote:

LTCM wrote:

Better hubs. No one should deny that.

But are you saying that MSP or DTW is a better hub than ORD? Or SLC better than DEN? In what measures that allow DL to earn double the profit of the other two US3?

Yes. DL controls much more of the market at MSP, DTW, and SLC than UA does at DEN and ORD. Denver and Chicago are larger markets, but Denver is split up between UA, WN, and to a lesser extent F9, and Chicago is split up between UA, AA, and WN.

spinotter wrote:

LTCM wrote:

Better hubs. No one should deny that.

But are you saying that MSP or DTW is a better hub than ORD? Or SLC better than DEN? In what measures that allow DL to earn double the profit of the other two US3?

Put it another way, if a pax is flying OMA-BOS, they will have to connect somewhere. In that example it is likely DTW or ORD. Assuming no corporate contract or FF loyalty, which airport offers a better connection? It doesn’t matter that Chicago has twice the market size of Detroit, the OMA-BOS pax is far less likely to miss their connect because of airspace congestion or gate availability in DTW than ORD. Arguably DTWs terminal is a nicer experience as well.

You could make a similar argument for MSP vs ORD. And while I will concede the exception of that SLC is probably not any better than DEN currently, that too could change in 10 months with the new terminal.

As other wise posters have alluded too, there is lots of money to be made cumulatively from places like FSD and BHM, and in most cases those pax will have to connect somewhere. And when making a connection, in general Delta’s hubs are better and far more reliable.

One thing that's for sure is aa has really high costs. For all the talk about aa not having a good product, it's rasm numbers are pretty good. It's cost are just really high though. The cost component is killing aa.

Dirt cheap gas favors older fleets.
Despite the incredibly low cost to service AA's massive debt, incrediblier cheaper fuel cost are allowing DL to fly older planes without penalty.
If you buy into all that gw talk, one could say future generations are subsidizing DL more than AA.

If fuel costs rise and Max gets back on line, AA and UA will benefit more than DL.
If economy/flying shrinks or interests rates go up, DL will continue to outpace.

I've given this question a LOT of thought, So here is my probably irrelevant answer sine we're speculating. Delta has never really been diluted in all of their Mergers and takeovers?
Has never been Diluted in their management ranks. They did what they did and everybody marched in the SAME Direction . United was taken over by Continental and slogged through their Weak ass management until NOW ? The management team is assembled from the previous carriers of the Vanquished. American, Northwest United and even Continental. All those guys wew cast aside and are now managing to Prove they were the best. Is Delta good? Yeah, Are they the BEST? I find that unlikely. They do not seem tp have the world view you might expect nor are the Bold in their operations. Matter of fact? They appear to be Timid. They have a pretty good Trans Atlantic operation but their Pacific operation? seems lacking and Timid. in Short?\Delta cam be caught and Overh heauled. It's mot so serious that anybody can say it's imminent though.. As for American? They're run by Regional airline guys who haven't the SLIGHTEST Idea how to run a Global Airline. And they got Rid of anybody who HAD a clue. They jettisoned Scott Kirby who is now at United then wanted him Back.
OK? So didn't you think he was worth his salt when he was there? Or was he a threat to the "dimwit" in charge at the time? I ask because He's doing a great job at United and so much so?
American wanted hi BACK!! Would I blame him for going back? No but only if he kept the dimwits that forces him out in the First place! American HAS Talent there. Their Pilots ain't happy, their flight attendants Ain't happy and their Ground troops ain't happy. They're moving forward because of their Weight alone. And all it will take is ONE visionary leader to make then the powerhouse they were when Bob Crandall ran the Airline. Is there Another Bob Crandall even Alive? I have no Idea, But they NEED a Fleet Admiral, Badly!

strfyr51 wrote:

I've given this question a LOT of thought, So here is my probably irrelevant answer sine we're speculating. Delta has never really been diluted in all of their Mergers and takeovers?
Has never been Diluted in their management ranks. They did what they did and everybody marched in the SAME Direction . United was taken over by Continental and slogged through their Weak ass management until NOW ? The management team is assembled from the previous carriers of the Vanquished. American, Northwest United and even Continental. All those guys wew cast aside and are now managing to Prove they were the best. Is Delta good? Yeah, Are they the BEST? I find that unlikely. They do not seem tp have the world view you might expect nor are the Bold in their operations. Matter of fact? They appear to be Timid. They have a pretty good Trans Atlantic operation but their Pacific operation? seems lacking and Timid. in Short?\Delta cam be caught and Overh heauled. It's mot so serious that anybody can say it's imminent though.. As for American? They're run by Regional airline guys who haven't the SLIGHTEST Idea how to run a Global Airline. And they got Rid of anybody who HAD a clue. They jettisoned Scott Kirby who is now at United then wanted him Back.
OK? So didn't you think he was worth his salt when he was there? Or was he a threat to the "dimwit" in charge at the time? I ask because He's doing a great job at United and so much so?
American wanted hi BACK!! Would I blame him for going back? No but only if he kept the dimwits that forces him out in the First place! American HAS Talent there. Their Pilots ain't happy, their flight attendants Ain't happy and their Ground troops ain't happy. They're moving forward because of their Weight alone. And all it will take is ONE visionary leader to make then the powerhouse they were when Bob Crandall ran the Airline. Is there Another Bob Crandall even Alive? I have no Idea, But they NEED a Fleet Admiral, Badly!

No delta definetely diluted their management ranks, last time while they were merging with Northwest they fired about half of both airlines executive management, but the delta culture which has become an amalgam of the cultures of the various airlines that have become delta, they just seem to be good at picking the best aspects of each airline, like in their last merger they took the mathematical and operational knowledge of northwest (one of the most reliable and stistically driven carriers in terms of fleet ops and routes) and merged it with the quality product and front line service culture of delta. I would say delta is fairly conservative in terms of route planning and strategy but they have since pretty much immediately after the merger started working down the list of things they needed to do and still seem to be working down the list, fixed the operation, drastically cut their 50 seat operations, improved their baggage handling to a level you can feel fairly confident checking a bag with them, started moving flying between hubs and cutting them (cvg and mem), improved the domestic product, bought access to heathrow with virgin atlantic, improved and now allow partners to use their tech stack (definetly work in progress still but virgin atlantic and aeromexico both use it i belive), built a strong transatlantic jv (probably 1 or 2 in basically everyones estimates), what they seem to be working on now is doing an asia build up which will be challenging but they seem to be working on it, and bring there widebody fleet up to the standards of their narrowbody fleet and thats slowly happening. Ultimately delta seem to have since their merger with northwest had a plan and have since then been more or less plugging away at it sometimes oportunistically and sometimes strategically and while their have been misteps they have been working on this gameplan for a while. doug parker is really good at one thing in aviation, mergers and aquistions the problem is that their isn't much left for doug to do in that regard, he has built a carrier that his traditional strategy of patching an operation together just good enough to be acceptable and then go merge again isn't viable there is no one left to merger with. If the rumors of a drunken fight between kirby and doug are to be believed, then i suspect doug may be overindulging and probably needs to be removed for the airline to improve. united's moving in the right direction and kirby finally seems to have a gameplan for the airline even if he is a good decade behind delta in deciding on a strategy and building towards it.

Simply put DL has a much better management team. That’s why they are the most profitable.

toobz wrote:

Simply put DL has a much better management team. That’s why they are the most profitable.

Yes Delta has better management people. However some of it includes Northwest management people and what was being practiced at Northwest Airlines which Delta adopted. One example is flying their aircraft until they need to make one last flight to the desert. Also seeing that Delta is for the most part is not bothered with unions Delta can expect more out their rank and file employees.
I should note that if Northwest Airlines had not been raped by Alfred E. Cheeche and his pals in the leveraged buyout in about 1989 which almost destroyed the airline, Northwest would probably survived intact as the solid debt free airline it was thanks to what Donal Nyrop and his followers accomplished to make Northwest a debt free and solid airline. Any merger involving Northwest Airlines, if it happened may have found Northwest Airlines the surviving airline.