Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:33 pm

n6238p wrote:
What’s the autoland crosswind limitation of a 320? What’s the max demonstrated limitation?

I can do a lot of things in the sim that don’t work in real life.


There is no specific autoland crosswind limit on the A320 for Cat 1, only for Cat 2/3. Maximum demonstrated is 38 kts gusts included, it will happy do more. For the A380 the maximum demonstrated crosswind for landing is 42 kt gusting 56 kt.

The reason I suggested the autoland option is they obviously do not have a TRI/TRE to teach them, observing the autopilot do it is going to better than most pilots could do manually anyway.

AUTOLAND IN ILS CAT I

Automatic landing in CAT I or better weather conditions is possible on:
• CAT I ground installations.
• CAT II/III ground installations when ILS/MLS sensitive areas are not protected.
However, following precautions are required:
• Airline must check the ILS/MLS beam quality and the effect of the terrain profile (especially 300 m) before the runway threshold. It should have no adverse effect on AP/FD guidance.
• Aircraft weight should be below the maximum landing weight.
• FMA should show CAT2 capability at least and crew should use CAT II/III procedures.
• Crew awareness that LOC or G/S beam fluctuations may occur.
• Be prepared to disconnect the autopilot in case of unsatisfactory guidance.
• Visual references are obtained at an altitude appropriate for the CAT I approach, if not then go-around.

MAXIMUM WIND CONDITIONS FOR CAT II / III AUTOMATIC APPROACH, LANDING AND ROLLOUT
• Headwind: 30 knots
• Tailwind: 10 knots
• Crosswind: 20 knots
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
N766UA
Posts: 8339
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:05 pm

flilot wrote:
N766UA wrote:
Admire the skill? Sorry guys, but I’m not impressed.

There's always one. :roll:


There should be at least one person checking the reality of this lovefest. It wasn’t a good landing, as far as technique goes, it was just *a* landing.

The comment about FBW is an interesting one, though. I’m curious how much that level of automation actually complicates the basics of something like landing in a strong crosswind.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20349
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:20 pm

mxaxai wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
That huge rudder fully deflecting after touchdown ... :shock:

During the storm last week, a video showed the rear view of an A380 landing, the dancing ailerons never cease to amaze me.

Do you have a link to that video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyE9HnPzyQE
EK A380 @ 15:30
EY A380 @ 20:00 <- probably the best
EY A380 @ 40:30
SQ A380 @ 49:00

Definitely worth watching those landings. Fun to watch the lineup in the winds.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
n6238p
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:54 pm

If you use CAT II/III procedures for a CAT I then yes the limitations are those listed for a CAT II/III landing.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
T54A
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:47 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:23 pm

n6238p wrote:
What’s the autoland crosswind limitation of a 320? What’s the max demonstrated limitation?

I can do a lot of things in the sim that don’t work in real life.



Zeke only mentions the Autoland in a 40kt crosswind in the sim as a great way to demonstrate the correct technique. It’s got nothing to with limitations or safety. I thought he made this quite obvious.
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
n6238p
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:29 pm

The correct technique is doing it how you do it in real life. Doing something in the sim that isn’t done on the line is negative learning and honestly pretty dangerous.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
crownvic
Posts: 2702
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:35 pm

flee wrote:
Big Jet TV is primarily a live stream plane spotting channel. I think the edited highlights was a way for them to make extra money as many TV stations were requesting to use their footage.

IIRC, the spotting location in the video is private properly but they have permission (and the keys to the locked gates) to use it.

I am not a regular viewer of this channel - so my information may be incomplete.



this was not a Big Jet TV video....
 
khobar95
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:54 pm

N766UA wrote:
flilot wrote:
N766UA wrote:
Admire the skill? Sorry guys, but I’m not impressed.

There's always one. :roll:


There should be at least one person checking the reality of this lovefest. It wasn’t a good landing, as far as technique goes, it was just *a* landing.

The comment about FBW is an interesting one, though. I’m curious how much that level of automation actually complicates the basics of something like landing in a strong crosswind.


Any landing you walk away from is a *good* landing. ;)
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:00 pm

N766UA wrote:
I’m curious how much that level of automation actually complicates the basics of something like landing in a strong crosswind.


It turns a swept wing jet into a C182. Most swept wing aircraft when aligning the aircraft with the centre line the yaw will cause the upwind wing to roll away from wind, this was captured on video with this A320 landing https://youtu.be/PWl0TygaeDw

You can see as the aligned with the centre line the aircraft rolled away from the wind.

n6238p wrote:
If you use CAT II/III procedures for a CAT I then yes the limitations are those listed for a CAT II/III landing.


The crosswind autoland limits are there to provide fail operational/passive/hybrid redundancy in Cat 2/3 conditions, they are derived from statistical data obtained during certification testing rather than hard aerodynamic limits. In Cat 1 all bets are off, no signal protections, there is no redundancy apart from the pilot. Hence the limit, “Be prepared to disconnect the autopilot in case of unsatisfactory guidance.” If you bend an aircraft you will want to have a very good justification for going behind that.

In the sim environment there is no internal or external bias introduced, the sim will happily fly its imaginary perfect ILS beam all the way down to rollout. This is very useful to demonstrate in the sim especially with people struggling with crosswinds. Show them how the sim handles 40 kts, get them to replicate, then when it comes to 15-20 kts it is not a psychological barrier, they have the techniques and confidence.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:08 pm

n6238p wrote:
The correct technique is doing it how you do it in real life. Doing something in the sim that isn’t done on the line is negative learning and honestly pretty dangerous.


So every sim ride you have done you have never had any failures, never done an upset, no unreliable speed, no volcanic ash, never shut down systems, never flown towards terrain, never flown towards traffic, never commenced an approach when the ATIS was below your limits ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
n6238p
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:55 pm

zeke wrote:
n6238p wrote:
The correct technique is doing it how you do it in real life. Doing something in the sim that isn’t done on the line is negative learning and honestly pretty dangerous.


So every sim ride you have done you have never had any failures, never done an upset, no unreliable speed, no volcanic ash, never shut down systems, never flown towards terrain, never flown towards traffic, never commenced an approach when the ATIS was below your limits ?


All of those things you listed are things that can happen and have happened in real life. If the ATIS is calling less than required minimums, you don't commence the approach and is a gotcha used to see if someone in the sim catches it. I don't know if you've flown this plane in real life with an actual crosswind but it behaves nothing like the sim. If this is someones first real experience in any kind of jet, well they're gonna get smart one day in the actual plane and think they can use the autoland in this manner because they saw it in the sim. Northwest used to have a sim-ism which caused spurious faults to appear due to a software glitch. The only way to fix it was to reset all three ADR's in the 320. Guess what happened, crew in flight got one of these faults and turned off all three ADR's, ended up declaring an emergency. They quickly got the sim software straightened out.

In a crosswind, ground speed mini is usually busy, Vapp is adjusted, the auto thrust cant keep up with the gusts. I can't ever imagine considering the autoland to do a better job than me.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4154
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:42 pm

skipness1E wrote:
but the land is most certainly fenced off from public access.

Maybe the police put him there because of this annoying way of commenting on each landing...

Revelation wrote:
I could do without the flamboyant commentary.

:checkmark:
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:58 pm

n6238p wrote:
If the ATIS is calling less than required minimums, you don't commence the approach and is a gotcha used to see if someone in the sim catches it.


The ATIS is whatever is the environmental are set on the instructor station, it is deliberating set below minima to force a go around. The ATIS I tell them and what is set is not the same.

n6238p wrote:
I don't know if you've flown this plane in real life with an actual crosswind but it behaves nothing like the sim.


Only every year in typhoon conditions.

n6238p wrote:
If this is someones first real experience in any kind of jet, well they're gonna get smart one day in the actual plane and think they can use the autoland in this manner because they saw it in the sim.


You must be a piece of work to fly with. I don’t expect every first takeoff of the day to have an engine failure because that is what I see in the sim.

I was very clear in that was for the person to use to see what the crosswind technique is like, they obviously don’t have a real instructor on hand to show them.

n6238p wrote:
Northwest used to have a sim-ism which caused spurious faults to appear due to a software glitch. The only way to fix it was to reset all three ADR's in the 320. Guess what happened, crew in flight got one of these faults and turned off all three ADR's, ended up declaring an emergency.


So I guess you don’t do any sim or line training if that’s your worst war story.

n6238p wrote:
In a crosswind, ground speed mini is usually busy, Vapp is adjusted


Put a 40 kt crosswind into flysmart and let me know how much it changes Vapp by.

n6238p wrote:
auto thrust cant keep up with the gusts. I can't ever imagine considering the autoland to do a better job than me.


If the autothrust cannot keep up with gusts, it requires manual thrust. Manual thrust and the autopilot works very very well, I also use reduced flap to increase Vapp (having done a performance assessment).
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
n6238p
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:35 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:46 pm

I’m I’m not prepared some sort of catastrophic failure on takeoff I guess I don’t need to leave my hand on the thrust levers until V1.

ATIS and weather are two different things.

My company doesn’t use flysmart. Adjusting the Vapp based on shear and Vls works pretty well for my airline.

It’s quite obvious we train on different sides of the globe. Sounds to me like a lot of wasted time in the sim doing something we should already know how to do. Someone doing funky stuff with an autoland when conditions didn’t warrant it almost took a few planes on a taxiway in ORD a year ago. I don’t agree autoland should ever be used in the same breath as advanced crosswind technique.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
User avatar
mighluss
Posts: 995
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:11 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:33 pm

mxaxai wrote:
SteinarN wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
That huge rudder fully deflecting after touchdown ... :shock:

During the storm last week, a video showed the rear view of an A380 landing, the dancing ailerons never cease to amaze me.

Do you have a link to that video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyE9HnPzyQE
EK A380 @ 15:30
EY A380 @ 20:00 <- probably the best
EY A380 @ 40:30
SQ A380 @ 49:00


If you ever wondered what happens with spoilers and so when you go around already on the ground

BA 777 at 36.50.

Anyway, I think go around was selected before touch down.
Miquel.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:07 pm

fly4ever78 wrote:
"Admire the skill" ... landing an airplane in a crab. Honestly, it's not very hard to land an airplane while its still angled into the wind. I always LOL every time I see these posts. The real skill is by pilots landing a plane that CANNOT be landed/side loaded in a crab!


You land in a crab on a wet runway. My 787 manual says it’s “recommended” to land with crab on a wet runway with more than 25kts of crosswind.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:36 pm

zeke wrote:
n6238p wrote:
The correct technique is doing it how you do it in real life. Doing something in the sim that isn’t done on the line is negative learning and honestly pretty dangerous.


So every sim ride you have done you have never had any failures, never done an upset, no unreliable speed, no volcanic ash, never shut down systems, never flown towards terrain, never flown towards traffic, never commenced an approach when the ATIS was below your limits ?



Zeke, perhaps the poster was trying to say, fly as you train and train as you fly, which is a popular term in many training organizations I have been in.
 
rigo
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:52 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:46 pm

Having never flown anything other than a C172, I wonder whose skills are we admiring here: the pilots, or the software engineers who programmed the A380's FBW?
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:36 pm

rigo wrote:
Having never flown anything other than a C172, I wonder whose skills are we admiring here: the pilots, or the software engineers who programmed the A380's FBW?

As a software engineer and a pilot, I will say both are very admirable.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24655
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:17 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
rigo wrote:
Having never flown anything other than a C172, I wonder whose skills are we admiring here: the pilots, or the software engineers who programmed the A380's FBW?

As a software engineer and a pilot, I will say both are very admirable.

I find the 1950s approach even more admirable:

Image

The gears are locked to the ILS and keep tracking the runway even if the plane itself is at an angle to the runway.

Ref: https://dieselpunkisdad.tumblr.com/post ... n-flight-i

Software, what's that?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:24 am

BravoOne wrote:
Zeke, perhaps the poster was trying to say, fly as you train and train as you fly, which is a popular term in many training organizations I have been in.


When teaching landings for a type rating, it is a totally artificial environment, it involves many re-positions so they can learn techniques. We are not teaching pilots how to land in a crosswind that is assumed knowledge, we are teaching them techniques specific to the new aircraft type, crosswind, glideslope from above, discontinued approach, go-arounds, rejected landing, wind-shear etc. The sessions are totally artificial to introduce all the variables to practice technique, it maybe 40 approaches in a session. It is not a loft exercise, it is not a regulatory check, it is initial type rating training. Our normal company limits for first officers is far more restrictive than the aircraft limits (10-15 kts crosswind), however in the simulator for regulatory checks all pilots are required to operate up to aircraft limits by our CAA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Virtual737
Topic Author
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:30 am

fly4ever78 wrote:
"Admire the skill" ... landing an airplane in a crab. Honestly, it's not very hard to land an airplane while its still angled into the wind. I always LOL every time I see these posts.


Well at least I made you laugh. That alone is admirable ;)
 
Tuan
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:45 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:06 am

mxaxai wrote:
That huge rudder fully deflecting after touchdown ... :shock:

During the storm last week, a video showed the rear view of an A380 landing, the dancing ailerons never cease to amaze me.

This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8mE0xPR4I
The A380 landing with dancing aileron is at around 3:45 into the video. There is an amazing view of A380 crosswind takeoff as well.
 
Dufo
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:41 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:01 am

zeke wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Zeke, perhaps the poster was trying to say, fly as you train and train as you fly, which is a popular term in many training organizations I have been in.


Our normal company limits for first officers is far more restrictive than the aircraft limits (10-15 kts crosswind), however in the simulator for regulatory checks all pilots are required to operate up to aircraft limits by our CAA.


So after upgrade they are suddenly capable of safely handling double the crosswind without having any previous experience?
Is this FO limitation result of past occurences?
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
asdf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:21 am

N766UA wrote:
Admire the skill? Sorry guys, but I’m not impressed. A lot of the control movements he’s making make no sense to me; he’s literally pushing the rudder the wrong way in the flare...


1.
you can not feel the same like the crew
so you can't know what movement he neutralized with a movement you think is going in the wrong direction

2.
I dont know how many inputs in flight surfaces are trimming inputs from the flightcomputer
I guess a lot
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:17 am

Dufo wrote:
So after upgrade they are suddenly capable of safely handling double the crosswind without having any previous experience?
Is this FO limitation result of past occurences?

Guess captains have more experience than FO's, so may be more familiar with how the aircraft behaves in crosswind and responds to control inputs? Not that there are captains with less experience than some FO's but as a general rule of thumb the captain will be the more senior crew member.
 
xwb777
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Etihad criticizes its A380 pilots for the crosswind landing.

Link: https://onemileatatime.com/etihad-a380- ... %20Landing
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24655
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:26 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Etihad criticizes its A380 pilots for the crosswind landing.

Link: https://onemileatatime.com/etihad-a380- ... %20Landing

Apparently the training department wanted to have seen a go-around?

This official view from the Training Department is a simple one – THIS IS NOT WHAT WE WANT TO SEE. There is a time to give an approach away in the interest of safety.

It would have been nice to have seen more guidance than "this is not what we want to see".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:59 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
"Admire the skill" ... landing an airplane in a crab. Honestly, it's not very hard to land an airplane while its still angled into the wind. I always LOL every time I see these posts. The real skill is by pilots landing a plane that CANNOT be landed/side loaded in a crab!


You land in a crab on a wet runway. My 787 manual says it’s “recommended” to land with crab on a wet runway with more than 25kts of crosswind.


I am aware that some planes are landed in a crab, I just don't think it takes a vast amount of skill to do that. It is impressive to watch in a video, but my opinion is it doesn't take much "skill" to slam an airplane into the ground sideways.
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:05 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
"Admire the skill" ... landing an airplane in a crab. Honestly, it's not very hard to land an airplane while its still angled into the wind. I always LOL every time I see these posts. The real skill is by pilots landing a plane that CANNOT be landed/side loaded in a crab!


Awesome, after you’ve finished playing Flight Sim or X Planes tonight before bedtime you can tell us how to do it properly....


The last thing I want to do is play flight sim. After 20 years and 15000 hours flying transport airplanes I don't need to justify my opinion. I was making a comment based on the authors title of "admire the skill". I don't admire the skill, because frankly, it doesn't take much skill, the end.
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
It would have been nice to have seen more guidance than "this is not what we want to see".


I'm sure Etihad's pilot group can figure out what "we" DO want to see in cases like this.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
tnair1974
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:35 am

Although I can't say I have a pilots license, several older relatives were private pilots (one still flies, although he's getting up in years and will likely be hanging it up soon). I was privileged to accompany them many times in the right front or even left front seat. Anyway, it was challenging enough for me doing crosswind landings in a "Hershey Bar" wing Piper Cherokee. Can't even imagine doing it in an A380! Never-the-less, I gradually got a decent feel of keeping the correct amount of rudder and aileron to (in a Cherokee) first touch the "upwind" main gear down first, then the other main, then the nose gear while keeping ailerons into the wind as needed during the landing roll.

My first flight in solid instruments was also memorable. I had a constant tendency to want to turn right, but was reminded you have to rely on your properly maintained instruments (spend minimal time on one instrument, start any corrections, but move on scanning other instruments) and NOT :shakehead: go by your gut feelings. Sadly, as we know there are too many poster boys/girls available on what can happen if one does go by gut feelings....
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:44 am

Tail camera view of the landing https://youtu.be/lHsMIdfD5Gg
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
tp1040
Posts: 369
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:13 am

zeke wrote:
Tail camera view of the landing https://youtu.be/lHsMIdfD5Gg


Not quite as dramatic when viewed from the tail cam.

Of course, my luck would to have been seated in steerage. Seemed like a big movement for the tail to get back to the centerline.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15168
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:21 am

tp1040 wrote:

Not quite as dramatic when viewed from the tail cam.

Of course, my luck would to have been seated in steerage. Seemed like a big movement for the tail to get back to the centerline.


The picture from the tail camera is closer to what the crew would have seen, and I would have been happy accepting what I saw considering the conditions. I think the camera angle and zoom make the landing look more dramatic from the ground in the case.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
hotelmode
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:25 am

zeke wrote:
Tail camera view of the landing https://youtu.be/lHsMIdfD5Gg


It’s not the same landing. Different flights on the same day.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:49 am

Dufo wrote:
zeke wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Zeke, perhaps the poster was trying to say, fly as you train and train as you fly, which is a popular term in many training organizations I have been in.


Our normal company limits for first officers is far more restrictive than the aircraft limits (10-15 kts crosswind), however in the simulator for regulatory checks all pilots are required to operate up to aircraft limits by our CAA.


So after upgrade they are suddenly capable of safely handling double the crosswind without having any previous experience?
Is this FO limitation result of past occurences?


Maybe, just maybe, zeke meant to say "initial" limit for FOs is 15kts cross.
Thats how it is handled at my airline, being new on type in the right hand seat. After 500hrs no difference in limits apply.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:51 am

fly4ever78 wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
fly4ever78 wrote:
"Admire the skill" ... landing an airplane in a crab. Honestly, it's not very hard to land an airplane while its still angled into the wind. I always LOL every time I see these posts. The real skill is by pilots landing a plane that CANNOT be landed/side loaded in a crab!


Awesome, after you’ve finished playing Flight Sim or X Planes tonight before bedtime you can tell us how to do it properly....


The last thing I want to do is play flight sim. After 20 years and 15000 hours flying transport airplanes I don't need to justify my opinion. I was making a comment based on the authors title of "admire the skill". I don't admire the skill, because frankly, it doesn't take much skill, the end.


For whats it worth: I agree. Doesnt take a "special" skill to fly the crab all the way to touchdown.
And as well does not make it a bad landing in such conditions.
Beauty comes after getting the job done.
The EY guys got the job done.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:50 am

Boeing says you should not align the airplane with the runway centerline completely.
Landing with increasing crosswind needs increasing crab angle at touchdown.
If you want to completely de-crab and align the airplane with the centerline you have to correct the drift with aileron, but in stronger crosswind conditions this increases the chance of a potstrike aka hitting the runway with a engine during the aileron correction to stay aligned with the centerline.

This problable does not exist with airplanes like that have engine on the fuselage behind the wings like the Fokker 100.
 
Tartarus
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:36 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:25 pm

There are 3 Crosswind landing techniques in the 777 FCTM, all 3 of which I have taught hundreds of times in the simulator.

Decrab
Land in crab
Sideslip (wing low)

Sideslip is what the aircraft does in an autoland. Flying crosscontrolled from about 500 feet, but is quite difficult to correctly coordinate. I never recommended it.
There is a max 28kt Crosswind limit for Sideslip due to risk of unwanted ground contact, hence autoland Crosswind limit of 25kts.
Contrary to popular belief, even among 777 pilots, the engine is not what will strike the ground first. First contact will be the outboard trailing flap fairing, followed then by wingtip, and finally engine pod. The engine pod is positioned forward of the C of G, therefore it actually rises during the flare.

Decrab is used most commonly, but is difficult to get correct.
The proper technique is to flare as normal in the crab at around 30 feet. Below 10 feet (5 works better if you're brave) gently squeeze (not kick!!) in sufficient rudder so that the nose aligns approximately with the centreline as both main wheel trucks touchdown simultaneously. There should be no aileron correction before touchdown as this then becomes a side slip, and if above 28 kts Crosswind component can result in the above mentioned flap fairing strike. Into wind aileron is added after landing to stop wing rising.

Land in crab means just that. It is recommended technique on a wet or contaminated runway, but not recommended on a dry runway.
 
flutter
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:56 am

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:35 am

zeke wrote:
The key to a crosswind landing is not to align the aircraft with the runway too fast. On the A320, at 50 ft move your eyes to around 2/3 down the runway and start adding some back pressure, 30’, flare (should go from around the 4 degree final pitch attitude to around 6 degrees), smoothly close the thrust levers, slowly squeeze the rudder in, and the smallest amount of into wind roll to stop drifting across the runway.

As you have no one to correctly demonstrate the technique, do a few autolands at 40 knots (put in NO in the DH field on the PERF APP page). At 350’ you should see it have a boxed green LAND, and then close to the runway you should see a FLARE and ROLLOUT, watch it flare, watch it reduce thrust on the EWD (before it says retard), and align itself with the runway. It does it smoothly and slowly. Once the aircraft main wheels are on the runway, select reverse, the autopilot will derotate the nose wheel onto the runway centre line, press the red autopilot disconnect on the side stick and maintain centre line with rudder as you bring the aircraft to a stop.

Once you have seen it autoland a few times, try and replicate what the autopilot does. With practice it will feel like time slows down and the control inputs become intuitive. Don’t be afraid to try an autoland again to get the correct picture outside again.


Thank you, that is really good advice. Even the rollout is not that easy to do.
 
clipperlondon
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:43 pm

Re: Admire the skill. EY A380 strong crosswind landing at LHR

Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:17 am

skipness1E wrote:
crownvic wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Am I the only one noting that the guy filming was trespassing where he really shouldn't have been?



Especially with a road and a barbed wire fence between him and the airport I would say yes, you are the only one who got it wrong. Lets keep this one in mind for post of the year...

I know where he is to get these over the fence shots, and it's not open to the public, there's one way in for vehicles that you can duck under the barrier,but the land is most certainly fenced off from public access. I assume you're familiar with the T5 locale and knew that? Anyone found there will be moved on by either Police or HAL Security. One assumes they were all indoors hiding from the weather on this occasion, OR they've recently given up and turning a blind eye.


Its nowhere near T5. In fact its at the other end of the runway, in a field near Hatton Cross, by the A30 road. Terminal 4 is probably what you meant?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos