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jbs2886
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:47 pm

Lootess wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Lootess wrote:

Yep, Ed is on-record wanting to be the first on the NMA line.


No, he's not. Bastian has never made any comments in official capacity regarding the extent of DL's interest in the NMA. He has played the PR circuit, in response to questions about DL's recent Airbus orders, and said 'we have nearly 200 757 and 767 up for replacement, the ball's in Boeing's court.' Of course, DL has 128 A321 and 49 A339/A350 on order, many of which will logically replace the B757 and B767, making a big dent in that 200 number. Let's put some numbers into perspective:

- DL has 64 B757 that entered service after its first B738; collectively, these aircraft are slightly younger than DL's original 71 B738.
- 32 A330 were originally delivered to NW. The last 32 B767 delivered to DL average just over 4.5 years older. These aircraft are younger than the entire B77E fleet.

Let's recap: DL has stated on multiple occasions the economics of narrowbody and short capacity widebodies needed to be evaluated, as labor costs continue to swell. DL has 121 A321 and 49 A339/A350 scheduled for delivery within the next five years or so -- the latter support DL's weariness of short capacity widebodies, as most of these aircraft will undoubtedly replace B763. DL has over 100 B757 and B767 that, status quo, will fly through or close to the end of the decade. And yet the logic on a.net is that the reason DL doesn't have a replacement on the books yet is because there's no suitable replacement? DL's already picked the A321 and A339/A359 to replace the aircraft nearing the end of their service life...

I don't get it. I guess it's Boeing fanboyism at its best -- ignoring facts, logic and reason, cradling to wishful thinking...


Here is what you don't get:

Delta Air Lines and Boeing have discussed the possibility of the carrier launching the proposed New Mid-market Airplane (NMA), as Delta seeks a replacement for more than 100 ageing mid-market aircraft.

"We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer," says Ed Bastian, chief executive of Delta, at the National Press Club in Washington DC today.


https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/delta-in-talks-with-boeing-to-launch-nma-bastian/128621.article


While I tend to think DL will jump at the NMA fast, the support you provided is in no way the equivalent of saying DL wants to be first. He said they were discussing the "potential" (not wanting to be, just potential) to be a "launch customer." Launch customer doesn't mean first, it means buying at launch.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 707
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
delimit wrote:
You are drawing arbitrary lines. The 788 is also significantly larger. And, of course, there are A339s coming into Delta as 767s are being retired, but no 787s so...
338

Seems to be a dog. No one is ordering them.


Correct. Both the A332 and 338 are very heavy shrinks and only appropriate for a handful of routes. Same reason why the A319neo and 73M-7 have sold so poorly. Outside of 2-3 routes they just have lackluster economics.

A338 isn't a dog. The biggest reason why it's not selling is that while the A339 has a slightly higher trip cost and will be flown on 99% of the routes you'd fly the 8 on, while having a significant increase in revenue generation potential. The A330-300 and now 900, have really grown in performance from when the 200 was introduced.
The A319NEO and 737-7 have been beaten down for nearly the same reasons. The A320C/NEO and 738/Max8 have grown in performance the past 10 years and can operate from many of the runways the A319/73G now without much of a penalty 98% of them, which makes the slightly higher trip cost bearable as both A320 and 738/max8 have significantly higher revenue potential.
A circa 2001 A321 or the 739 are dogs on anything over 1,500 miles.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:33 am

Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.



The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
strfyr51
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:20 am

keesje wrote:
The geriatic DL 757 fleet..

Delta ordered 230 A321 so far.

AA and United ordered A321XLR, as did Jetblue, Spirit and Frontier.

Delta ? .. :scratchchin:


delta could easily upgrade the A321 to the A321XLR since they haven't been delivered yet. But? What are they going to use them for?
 
Strato2
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:29 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


XLR will run circles around the 757.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:55 am

Strato2 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


XLR will run circles around the 757.

Very substantive response :?
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:12 am

Lootess wrote:
Here is what you don't get...


No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf
Well, we are not at a position to be making those type of decisions,as I understand the Boeing board hasn’t even made the decision to build the aircraft yet. So, it’s still in the discussion phase. ... We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer. It would be premature to make any comments along those lines. But I think Boeing is interested in getting a feel from the marketplace as to wher the price point needs to be, what are the parameters, what's the range, what's the cost target that we want to see, what's the expectations of the airlines, not just operationally but also from a customer standpoint to make certain that they hit the mark. The launch of a new aircraft is extraordinarily expensive.


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:34 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.

The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


Unless Boeing gave DL a deal it couldn't refuse, I wouldn't expect a MAX order anytime within the near future. DL has over 600 mainline aircraft that will be at least 30yo by the end of the decade; the oldest 319, later 320 deliveries (excluding the remaining 35 of 50 original) and 738 just turned 20yo. The likelihood that DL will replace all 600 of these aircraft with brand new ones is slim -- IMO, it's far more likely DL will wait for the successor of the 737/320, and retort to used, late model 320/NG if necessary.

And Hillary Clinton has a better chance at winning the presidency this year than DL placing an order for the 788. DL decided several times that the aircraft was a poor fit for its network and cancelled the order, and there's absolutely nothing that's happened since to second guess that decision.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:02 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Here is what you don't get...


No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf
Well, we are not at a position to be making those type of decisions,as I understand the Boeing board hasn’t even made the decision to build the aircraft yet. So, it’s still in the discussion phase. ... We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer. It would be premature to make any comments along those lines. But I think Boeing is interested in getting a feel from the marketplace as to wher the price point needs to be, what are the parameters, what's the range, what's the cost target that we want to see, what's the expectations of the airlines, not just operationally but also from a customer standpoint to make certain that they hit the mark. The launch of a new aircraft is extraordinarily expensive.


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.


Please review this video at approximately 4:10 into the video Ed Bastion clearly states he would like to be the launch customer of the Nma/797.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch-c ... vp-BBVNBAm
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:22 am

Oliver2020 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Here is what you don't get...


No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf
Well, we are not at a position to be making those type of decisions,as I understand the Boeing board hasn’t even made the decision to build the aircraft yet. So, it’s still in the discussion phase. ... We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer. It would be premature to make any comments along those lines. But I think Boeing is interested in getting a feel from the marketplace as to wher the price point needs to be, what are the parameters, what's the range, what's the cost target that we want to see, what's the expectations of the airlines, not just operationally but also from a customer standpoint to make certain that they hit the mark. The launch of a new aircraft is extraordinarily expensive.


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.


Please review this video at approximately 4:10 into the video Ed Bastion clearly states he would like to be the launch customer of the Nma/797.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch-c ... vp-BBVNBAm


This is Ed Bastian clearly playing the PR circuit.
Interviewer: Does what happened with the 737 MAX make it less likely that you'll order the 797?
Ed: No. Boeing's the largest supplier of jets to us and we have the upmost confidence in them. We have 200 757 and 767 that need to be replaced, and we'd like to be the launch customer of the 797.

DL doesn't have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement -- when it made its latest Airbus orders, it made it clear these were primarily for replacement (unsurprisingly). The nearly 200 A321, A339 and A359 combined will teeth heavily into the 757 and 767 replacement, and Ed knows this.

Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC. It reminds me of the CLE faithful clinging to interview comments that 'CLE does well for us' as proof the hub made zillions of dollars.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:24 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
And Hillary Clinton has a better chance at winning the presidency this year than DL placing an order for the 788. DL decided several times that the aircraft was a poor fit for its network and cancelled the order, and there's absolutely nothing that's happened since to second guess that decision.


At the beginning of the year, I would have rated a “DL gets a really good 787 deal from Boeing to keep the line rate up” scenario as being rather unlikely, but more likely than AA launching SEA-BLR. So stranger things have happened.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:57 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.


Please review this video at approximately 4:10 into the video Ed Bastion clearly states he would like to be the launch customer of the Nma/797.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch-c ... vp-BBVNBAm


This is Ed Bastian clearly playing the PR circuit.
Interviewer: Does what happened with the 737 MAX make it less likely that you'll order the 797?
Ed: No. Boeing's the largest supplier of jets to us and we have the upmost confidence in them. We have 200 757 and 767 that need to be replaced, and we'd like to be the launch customer of the 797.

DL doesn't have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement -- when it made its latest Airbus orders, it made it clear these were primarily for replacement (unsurprisingly). The nearly 200 A321, A339 and A359 combined will teeth heavily into the 757 and 767 replacement, and Ed knows this.

Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC. It reminds me of the CLE faithful clinging to interview comments that 'CLE does well for us' as proof the hub made zillions of dollars.


100 - 752
16 - 753
56 - 763 er
21 - 764 er
193 total so I appologize I missed the mark by 7 aircraft.

Over the end of the next decade the following aircraft will be or began to be retired needing a replacement.
91-712
41-md88
30-md90
57-a319
62-a320
71-738 excluding 2010-2 and the 4 exGOL AC that are under capital lease

352 AC remaining deliveries.

17-a221
50-a223.... Plus 50 options
31-a321ceo
100-321neo plus 100 options

198 firm orders plus 150 options = 348
That does not include the 757 or any expansion over the decade.

The widebody order you also have to remember 8-772er plus the beginning of the 21- Ex NW AC which began delivery in 1999.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:18 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.


Please review this video at approximately 4:10 into the video Ed Bastion clearly states he would like to be the launch customer of the Nma/797.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch-c ... vp-BBVNBAm


This is Ed Bastian clearly playing the PR circuit.
Interviewer: Does what happened with the 737 MAX make it less likely that you'll order the 797?
Ed: No. Boeing's the largest supplier of jets to us and we have the upmost confidence in them. We have 200 757 and 767 that need to be replaced, and we'd like to be the launch customer of the 797.

DL doesn't have 200 757 and 767 up for replacement -- when it made its latest Airbus orders, it made it clear these were primarily for replacement (unsurprisingly). The nearly 200 A321, A339 and A359 combined will teeth heavily into the 757 and 767 replacement, and Ed knows this.

Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC. It reminds me of the CLE faithful clinging to interview comments that 'CLE does well for us' as proof the hub made zillions of dollars.


if you want my opinion 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 in couch beats 3-3-3 and day of the week, but to be honest I do not believe there is a business case for the nma, but to each his own.

I wish the 764 re engine with the genx was somehow economical and to be realistic that's most likely not going to happen atleast as a passenger model.
With that said I'll take the 2-4-2 a339 any day of the week over a 3-3-3 in couch.
 
RalXWB
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:14 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.



The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


Again, you are quoting WRONG myths regarding the 757. Deltas transatlantic 757s have around 168 seats. FACT is, the 321XLR carries the same passengers and payload further than the 757.
 
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
But entirely inappropriate for many of Delta's 767 cities. The A339 is nearly twice as large as the 763.


According to SeatGuru DL's A333s & A339s have around 31% more seats than their 763s. Not anywhere close to "nearly twice as large". :shakehead:
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Lootess
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Here is what you don't get...


No, you need to read his comments in their entirely rather than relying on a click bait piece:

https://www.press.org/sites/default/fil ... astian.pdf
Well, we are not at a position to be making those type of decisions,as I understand the Boeing board hasn’t even made the decision to build the aircraft yet. So, it’s still in the discussion phase. ... We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer. It would be premature to make any comments along those lines. But I think Boeing is interested in getting a feel from the marketplace as to wher the price point needs to be, what are the parameters, what's the range, what's the cost target that we want to see, what's the expectations of the airlines, not just operationally but also from a customer standpoint to make certain that they hit the mark. The launch of a new aircraft is extraordinarily expensive.


At no point did Bastian say that DL is interested in the aircraft, let alone say DL wanted to be the launch customer. He claimed the Boeing approached DL and inquired 'if you were the launch customer of this aircraft, what would you expect and what would you expect to pay for it?' He clearly states that DL cannot even make a decision on whether it would order the aircraft, as it's not even available yet.

As Bastian pointed out, the development of a new aircraft is very expensive, and Boeing will roll that cost into its asking price. There's a very good chance that buying the 338 may be a much more cost effective option.


You're really reaching to come up with a moot argument, when you didn't even know this existed in the first place.

The fact remains Ed is willing to listen to Boeing about being a launch customer, yes it's very premature to get anywhere beyond that since the plane is technically not on paper. But this is how it really works, getting advice on what they are looking for, and price targets from a potential large customer to get the discussions started, It's the same things ANA did with getting assurances with the 787.

Considering Delta was an NA launch partner of the A220, it's not entirely out of the question that they wouldn't be willing to launch a model.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:18 pm

787 and 737 MAX are out of the question for DL without substantial discounts that would potentially attract the wrong kind of attention (the kind of deals that would be accused of being "dumping" in international trade if DL & Boeing didn't paint the same flag on their aircraft).

Why would DL consider the 787 when A330NEOs and even CEOs are available? The NEO is cheaper, has established pools of pilots, mechanics, and parts, and is more readily available. There are very few routes where the extra reach afforded by the 787 matters - examples being LAX-SYD, ATL-ICN/HND/JNB - and those have enough demand in front, back and in the holds to be served by existing 777s (which I can see being replaced by more A350s) and A350s.

Same thing goes for the MAX. The A320NEO doesn't have a suspended type certificate, doesn't have the stigma of the MAX, and doesn't require the hypothesized training for NG pilots (and pre-grounding MAX pilots for the matter). And I doubt even with a deal that DL would even chance hurting their reputation with painting the MAX in their colors. The XLR is a superb aircraft and will likely be more impactful than the cleansheet widebodies of Airbus and Boeing in terms of route planning.

With public knowledge of DL, Airbus and Boeing's roadmaps the future of DL is an exclusive customer of Airbus for new aircraft. Any additional Boeing aircraft will be used units. The A220 and A321N will form the backbone of DL's factory new NB fleet, and likewise with the A330 and A359 for widebody ops. Of course information maybe exists that only insiders with potentially punitive NDAs have, but until such information is revealed, that's what can be assumed.
 
Lootess
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:21 pm

Yeah, I seriously doubt 737 MAX ever ends up on Delta property. It would have to be a steal of a deal, end-of-the-line ordeal almost just like the 900ERs, even then that's still doubtful considering how all-in they are on the A321CEO and NEO as the replace and up-gauge strategy.

Richard Anderson wanted the A330NEO so bad, if they want more they can top-up. Now they have LATAM's A350 order book, it'll be interesting to see where they deploy those orders which practically replace the deferred 10.
 
NateGreat
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:59 pm

Lootess wrote:
Yeah, I seriously doubt 737 MAX ever ends up on Delta property. It would have to be a steal of a deal, end-of-the-line ordeal almost just like the 900ERs, even then that's still doubtful considering how all-in they are on the A321CEO and NEO as the replace and up-gauge strategy.

Richard Anderson wanted the A330NEO so bad, if they want more they can top-up. Now they have LATAM's A350 order book, it'll be interesting to see where they deploy those orders which practically replace the deferred 10.

Considering that Delta never owned a single Airbus plane nor ordered any Airbus planes before the merger with Northwest (they had Boeing 727s (until 2003), 737s, 757s, 767s, and 777s), it makes one wonder what Delta’s fleet would look like today, had the merger never happened.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:46 pm

NateGreat wrote:
Considering that Delta never owned a single Airbus plane nor ordered any Airbus planes before the merger with Northwest (they had Boeing 727s (until 2003), 737s, 757s, 767s, and 777s), it makes one wonder what Delta’s fleet would look like today, had the merger never happened.


They got new A310s to make a decent fleet size on top of those acquired from Pan Am
 
alfa164
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:45 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
Why would DL consider the 787 when A330NEOs and even CEOs are available? The NEO is cheaper, has established pools of pilots, mechanics, and parts, and is more readily available. There are very few routes where the extra reach afforded by the 787 matters - examples being LAX-SYD, ATL-ICN/HND/JNB - and those have enough demand in front, back and in the holds to be served by existing 777s (which I can see being replaced by more A350s) and A350s..


Let's modify your statement a little: "There are very few existing routes where the extra reach afforded by the 787 matters - examples being LAX-SYD, ATL-ICN/HND/JNB - and those have enough demand in front, back and in the holds to be served by existing 777s (which I can see being replaced by more A350s) and A350s."

The fact is... unless Delta wants to channel all its Asia flying through Inchon - and the main purpose of establishing SEA was to avoid needing an Asian hub - it does need a 787 to make many markets viable. The 777 is just too much plane for DL flying SEA-SIN/MNL/TPE or any other, potentially new Asian routes - and not flying those routes cedes too much Asia flying to its competitors. Delta's strong number-two-in-Asia position is severely threatened by a newly-opportunistic AA, not to mention the influx of Asian carriers on the west coast.

If I recall correctly, much of Delta's reluctance to take the early models was that they didn't meet the expected performance parameters. But that was the early models; now that problem is gone. They need to reconsider the 787, and I think they will.
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RalXWB
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:01 am

Funny how Nobody thinks that DL could just Order some 320NEOs.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:48 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Considering that Delta never owned a single Airbus plane nor ordered any Airbus planes before the merger with Northwest (they had Boeing 727s (until 2003), 737s, 757s, 767s, and 777s), it makes one wonder what Delta’s fleet would look like today, had the merger never happened.


They got new A310s to make a decent fleet size on top of those acquired from Pan Am


Oh good grief. And how long did those A310's last? They were thrown out for 767's just as as soon as they were able to.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:06 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
delimit wrote:
You are drawing arbitrary lines. The 788 is also significantly larger. And, of course, there are A339s coming into Delta as 767s are being retired, but no 787s so...

Seems to be a dog. No one is ordering them.


Correct. Both the A332 and 338 are very heavy shrinks and only appropriate for a handful of routes. Same reason why the A319neo and 73M-7 have sold so poorly. Outside of 2-3 routes they just have lackluster economics.

A338 isn't a dog. The biggest reason why it's not selling is that while the A339 has a slightly higher trip cost and will be flown on 99% of the routes you'd fly the 8 on, while having a significant increase in revenue generation potential. The A330-300 and now 900, have really grown in performance from when the 200 was introduced.
The A319NEO and 737-7 have been beaten down for nearly the same reasons. The A320C/NEO and 738/Max8 have grown in performance the past 10 years and can operate from many of the runways the A319/73G now without much of a penalty 98% of them, which makes the slightly higher trip cost bearable as both A320 and 738/max8 have significantly higher revenue potential.
A circa 2001 A321 or the 739 are dogs on anything over 1,500 miles.


Also, with the 251t version of the A339 now available, it can also substitute for the Boeing 777-200ER. The A338 doesn't really have too many missions where it would be needed and it can make a profit. I suspect that DL may defer some direct orders (but not the two to be leased from the Air Lease Corporation order book) for the 251t version. DL also took delivery of ten A333s at a 242t MTOW, allowing DL to replace the B772 on routes like JFK-TLV.

As for the A19N, once the A20N was shown to be able to perform the same missions that the A319 can out of airfields like BOG, the business case for the A19N evaporated (Avianca is using the A320neo on BOG-JFK alongside the A319 and wide-bodies in NW19, with AV244/5 being a mix of A20N, A332, and A333, although the route will go all wide-body in NS20). NK has the A19N on order, but I could see that being changed as financing will be hard to get if NK decides to go the sale-leaseback route.

I could see DL ordering the A320neo as a partial A319 replacement. They would need about 100 at least though...to replace the A319 and B738 fleet (most of the A320s being long gone and much of the B738 fleet being flown to around age 30).
 
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:37 am

Lootess wrote:
You're really reaching to come up with a moot argument, when you didn't even know this existed in the first place.


Uh, I was very aware of Bastian's comments, but it's obvious you weren't since you cherry picked a statement, through a third party website, that completely took his entire comments out of context.

The fact remains Ed is willing to listen to Boeing about being a launch customer, yes it's very premature to get anywhere beyond that since the plane is technically not on paper. But this is how it really works, getting advice on what they are looking for, and price targets from a potential large customer to get the discussions started, It's the same things ANA did with getting assurances with the 787.

Considering Delta was an NA launch partner of the A220, it's not entirely out of the question that they wouldn't be willing to launch a model.


I have never said that DL would not order the NMA/797, or consider being the launch customer. What I said was, contrary to what multiple posters have relayed here, DL has never said in a formal context that it wants to order the NMA/797. DL has said repeatedly that Boeing has held discussions with them regarding their interest and expectations in the aircraft, but until Boeing formally offers the aircraft with expectations and pricing, any formal interest on DL's end is premature. Notice how Bastian has stressed IF and the exorbitant cost of launching a new aircraft -- he's indirectly implying there there's some skepticism on DL's end that Boeing will proceed with the aircraft. The reality is, that the cost improvements in operating the NMA/797 may be outweighed by its offering price, leading DL to order the A338 instead.

Meanwhile, on a.net, DL has formally committed to the aircraft. It's very possible Boeing could choose not to proceed with the NMA/797. If that happens, all we'll read about is how DL's relationship with Boeing was further restrained and how dumb Boeing is because DL really, really, really wanted the aircraft ... even though none of it is true.

Lootess wrote:
Richard Anderson wanted the A330NEO so bad, if they want more they can top-up. Now they have LATAM's A350 order book, it'll be interesting to see where they deploy those orders which practically replace the deferred 10.


That's not how big corporations work. Richard Anderson may have signed off on the order, but the grunt work and recommendations came from below him.
 
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:12 am

alfa164 wrote:
The fact is... unless Delta wants to channel all its Asia flying through Inchon - and the main purpose of establishing SEA was to avoid needing an Asian hub - it does need a 787 to make many markets viable.


What does the 787 give DL that the A330neo doesn't or can't provide (without the need to add a new type to the fleet)?
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dstblj52
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:33 am

scbriml wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
The fact is... unless Delta wants to channel all its Asia flying through Inchon - and the main purpose of establishing SEA was to avoid needing an Asian hub - it does need a 787 to make many markets viable.


What does the 787 give DL that the A330neo doesn't or can't provide (without the need to add a new type to the fleet)?

A.net approval
 
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:01 am

dstblj52 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
The fact is... unless Delta wants to channel all its Asia flying through Inchon - and the main purpose of establishing SEA was to avoid needing an Asian hub - it does need a 787 to make many markets viable.


What does the 787 give DL that the A330neo doesn't or can't provide (without the need to add a new type to the fleet)?

A.net approval


Well, there is that! :lol:
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Aceskywalker
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:44 am

alfa164 wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
Why would DL consider the 787 when A330NEOs and even CEOs are available? The NEO is cheaper, has established pools of pilots, mechanics, and parts, and is more readily available. There are very few routes where the extra reach afforded by the 787 matters - examples being LAX-SYD, ATL-ICN/HND/JNB - and those have enough demand in front, back and in the holds to be served by existing 777s (which I can see being replaced by more A350s) and A350s..


Let's modify your statement a little: "There are very few existing routes where the extra reach afforded by the 787 matters - examples being LAX-SYD, ATL-ICN/HND/JNB - and those have enough demand in front, back and in the holds to be served by existing 777s (which I can see being replaced by more A350s) and A350s."

The fact is... unless Delta wants to channel all its Asia flying through Inchon - and the main purpose of establishing SEA was to avoid needing an Asian hub - it does need a 787 to make many markets viable. The 777 is just too much plane for DL flying SEA-SIN/MNL/TPE or any other, potentially new Asian routes - and not flying those routes cedes too much Asia flying to its competitors. Delta's strong number-two-in-Asia position is severely threatened by a newly-opportunistic AA, not to mention the influx of Asian carriers on the west coast.

If I recall correctly, much of Delta's reluctance to take the early models was that they didn't meet the expected performance parameters. But that was the early models; now that problem is gone. They need to reconsider the 787, and I think they will.


Delta's Asia/Pacific strategy is choosing several top tier cities in Asia - Beijing, Seoul, Tokyo, Shanghai - and connect them with their hubs (SEA, MSP, DTW, ATL). Part two of that strategy is connecting cities in their network with heavy O&D demand (LAX-SYD/PVG/HND & HNL-Japan).

For other Asian destinations, replace the NW/DL NRT operation with ICN and KE doing the intra-Asia segments. DL is not going to be doing anything with the likes of SEA-TPE/MNL/etc. And most definitely not with 787s. With regard to Singapore, I expect DL to be hesitant to compete with SQ. With regard to Manila, DL metal is flying ICN-MNL solely because JV partner KE is constrained by Korea-Philippines bilaterals, and DL metal is a loophole the two airlines have exploited. If and when KE is allowed to put more seats on that route, expect DL to quickly close its MNL operations.

And even if I'm wrong and DL uses SEA to open up an Asia gateway to other Asian cities like TPE/MNL/HKG, the A330NEO is more than capable to fly SEA to those cities. Only SIN is out of reach of the A330NEO, and such a route could be served by a flagship aircraft in the A350.
 
744SPX
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:58 am

Strato2 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


XLR will run circles around the 757.


On 10,000 foot runways, yes!
 
Sancho99504
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:11 am

RalXWB wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.



The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


Again, you are quoting WRONG myths regarding the 757. Deltas transatlantic 757s have around 168 seats. FACT is, the 321XLR carries the same passengers and payload further than the 757.

I said "I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement". That is a statement of an opinion.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:23 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.

The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


Unless Boeing gave DL a deal it couldn't refuse, I wouldn't expect a MAX order anytime within the near future. DL has over 600 mainline aircraft that will be at least 30yo by the end of the decade; the oldest 319, later 320 deliveries (excluding the remaining 35 of 50 original) and 738 just turned 20yo. The likelihood that DL will replace all 600 of these aircraft with brand new ones is slim -- IMO, it's far more likely DL will wait for the successor of the 737/320, and retort to used, late model 320/NG if necessary.

And Hillary Clinton has a better chance at winning the presidency this year than DL placing an order for the 788. DL decided several times that the aircraft was a poor fit for its network and cancelled the order, and there's absolutely nothing that's happened since to second guess that decision.

Ed has said multiple times that Boeing couldn't deliver the 787 on DLs timeline or at a price point that made it competitive to the A339 and A350. Not a single thing about it being a poor fit in the network.
I never said "expect an order" for 737 Max or 787. All I said was, don't discount an order. DL has people who are in constant contact with each manufacturer so that they are able to jump on a great deal when it presents itself.
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flyabr
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:44 am

Airbus has firmly locked-in DL for the foreseeable future. A221, A223, A225, A321, A339, A359 and maybe some A320s if need be. Not gonna see a Boeing order until perhaps the next generation NB becomes available! If DL really thought they needed any version of the 787, they'd of procured them by now!
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:56 am

[quote="Sancho99504"Ed has said multiple times that Boeing couldn't deliver the 787 on DLs timeline or at a price point that made it competitive to the A339 and A350. Not a single thing about it being a poor fit in the network. [/quote]

You said: [D]on't discount a ... 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months." Note the precise timing you added.

Regardless, in the mid-2010s, Richard Anderson clearly stated that DL was considering only the 787-9. Repeated comments such as 'we like the 787-9, and feel Boeing learned its lesson from the 787-8' show DL's true feelings toward the 788. The aircraft were on order for 11 years, 7 under DL, before being cancelled. Obviously DL thoroughly evaluated the type, determined it was a poor fit, then cancelled the order - and there's no reason to believe status quo has changed over the past four years.

I'd also be careful in buying into the PR circuit re: DL's selecting the 339 and 359. Yes, at one time Richard Anderson commented on the 789's list price. But at the time of the order's announcement, industry sources claimed that Boeing's final price was competitive with Airbus, and while Airbus could guarantee DL faster delivery times, Boeing was offering DL priority on slot cancellations and was confident it could match.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:25 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
[quote="Sancho99504"Ed has said multiple times that Boeing couldn't deliver the 787 on DLs timeline or at a price point that made it competitive to the A339 and A350. Not a single thing about it being a poor fit in the network.


You said: [D]on't discount a ... 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months." Note the precise timing you added.

Regardless, in the mid-2010s, Richard Anderson clearly stated that DL was considering only the 787-9. Repeated comments such as 'we like the 787-9, and feel Boeing learned its lesson from the 787-8' show DL's true feelings toward the 788. The aircraft were on order for 11 years, 7 under DL, before being cancelled. Obviously DL thoroughly evaluated the type, determined it was a poor fit, then cancelled the order - and there's no reason to believe status quo has changed over the past four years.

I'd also be careful in buying into the PR circuit re: DL's selecting the 339 and 359. Yes, at one time Richard Anderson commented on the 789's list price. But at the time of the order's announcement, industry sources claimed that Boeing's final price was competitive with Airbus, and while Airbus could guarantee DL faster delivery times, Boeing was offering DL priority on slot cancellations and was confident it could match.[/quote]

I don't buy that at all. Every version I've heard said that Boeing couldn't match the 330neo on price or delivery.

You're telling me that the 787 wouldn't fit in Delta's network? What are they doing differently than every other major airline. The 787 is a fleet staple. Except at DL.
 
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:35 am

744SPX wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


XLR will run circles around the 757.


On 10,000 foot runways, yes!


Ah, that old myth. Maybe you'd be surprised if you fact-checked. :yes:
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LAOCA
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm

Cheers[/quote]

(the 753 has better CASM than A321ceo and 739NG - at the expense of larger capacity - but is out-CASM'd by both the MAX and A321neo at a smaller gauge).

.[/quote]

Is this true? If so it would be razor thin. I suppose possible by reduced depreciation costs. The fuel burn of the 753 is pretty extreme though.
 
LAOCA
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:48 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
Supposedly, back when the A321NEO was ordered, the rumor was that there would be an order for Max 8s to replace 738s, A320s and on the higher end, A319s. The A223 would eventually replace the A319s on the low end.
Ed said that he went discussed with Boeing what DL needed in the 787 and showed them what Airbus was offering at the time(A330-900). His friends at Boeing told him to go with Airbus because there was no way they could come close with the 787.

Then everything with the C Series/A220 and the Max 8 discussions stopped.

Ed is a smart man, so is the rest of the C suite, so don't discount a Max 8 or even a 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months.

The A321XLR is going to be a great plane, but it won't be taking 181-183 seats in with J/Y+/Y across the Atlantic, maybe to the UK, Ireland and AMS, OPO, LIS and maybe CDG.
I think that's what people are getting at when they say it's not a great 757 replacement.


Unless Boeing gave DL a deal it couldn't refuse, I wouldn't expect a MAX order anytime within the near future. DL has over 600 mainline aircraft that will be at least 30yo by the end of the decade; the oldest 319, later 320 deliveries (excluding the remaining 35 of 50 original) and 738 just turned 20yo. The likelihood that DL will replace all 600 of these aircraft with brand new ones is slim -- IMO, it's far more likely DL will wait for the successor of the 737/320, and retort to used, late model 320/NG if necessary.


I never said "expect an order" for 737 Max or 787. All I said was, don't discount an order. DL has people who are in constant contact with each manufacturer so that they are able to jump on a great deal when it presents itself.


I wouldn't discount it either. There's room for a lot of MAX-8s in the big void being discussed. It would be a huge boost for Boeing to secure an order with DL right now and worth making a deal that's difficult to say no to. At the right price they make a lot of sense. I think we'd all love to see 320 NEOs or 220-500s but the MAX specs out perfectly for a big part of the domestic system.
 
Delta332
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:38 pm

Would be nice if Boeing would develop an enhanced 767 model.
 
Oliver2020
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:31 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
[quote="Sancho99504"Ed has said multiple times that Boeing couldn't deliver the 787 on DLs timeline or at a price point that made it competitive to the A339 and A350. Not a single thing about it being a poor fit in the network.


You said: [D]on't discount a ... 787-8 order sometime in the next 18 months." Note the precise timing you added.

Regardless, in the mid-2010s, Richard Anderson clearly stated that DL was considering only the 787-9. Repeated comments such as 'we like the 787-9, and feel Boeing learned its lesson from the 787-8' show DL's true feelings toward the 788. The aircraft were on order for 11 years, 7 under DL, before being cancelled. Obviously DL thoroughly evaluated the type, determined it was a poor fit, then cancelled the order - and there's no reason to believe status quo has changed over the past four years.

I'd also be careful in buying into the PR circuit re: DL's selecting the 339 and 359. Yes, at one time Richard Anderson commented on the 789's list price. But at the time of the order's announcement, industry sources claimed that Boeing's final price was competitive with Airbus, and while Airbus could guarantee DL faster delivery times, Boeing was offering DL priority on slot cancellations and was confident it could match.



Can you please explain the reason DL is more profitable than UA and AA despite the fact that DL doesn't have 1 787 on property?

Also the 18-787-8s that were eventually cancelled had RR engines, and they had an MRO deal as well.
If DL had excepted those AC, they would have been grounded for 3 months due to battery fires, and once again recently due to the corrosion issue on the RR fan blades. I would consider Delta lucky they were able to get out of that contract.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:18 am

Not sure what you guys are all arguing, but I think you are proving each other's points.

The comments from Richard, Ed, or Glen are all PR/corporate-nonspeak regarding the 787, A330NEO, 797.
Note that every comment quoted is essentially non-committal, in very soft milquetoast language.
The quotes were all made either to Aviation industry magazine/publications or at industry events.
Nowhere was anything definitive ever said that was put in a report or corporate filing.
In many cases, the authors of articles being quoted are making broad assumptions and misquoting what was said.

At the end of the day, using these quotes is all silly - it means absolutely nothing about what was said in years gone by about said aircraft.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:34 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not sure what you guys are all arguing, but I think you are proving each other's points.

The comments from Richard, Ed, or Glen are all PR/corporate-nonspeak regarding the 787, A330NEO, 797.
Note that every comment quoted is essentially non-committal, in very soft milquetoast language.
The quotes were all made either to Aviation industry magazine/publications or at industry events.
Nowhere was anything definitive ever said that was put in a report or corporate filing.
In many cases, the authors of articles being quoted are making broad assumptions and misquoting what was said.

At the end of the day, using these quotes is all silly - it means absolutely nothing about what was said in years gone by about said aircraft.


You summed up my point better than I did. My point is this:

-- DL decides to accelerate retirement of the MD-88/MD-90. DL takes delivery of a record number of new build aircraft in a relatively short time period to accomplish this. To capitalize the aircraft purchases, DL opts to defer widebodies on order, squeezing more life out of the older 763.

-- Now that the MD-88/MD-90 are mostly gone and replacements are accounted for, DL adds to its existing widebody order. DL is now set to take delivery of 49 A330/A350 in a very aggressive five year span. These 49 aircraft will replace much of the existing widebody capacity. The remaining widebody capacity is mostly under 20-years-old.

-- In several years, as the thread suggested, DL will look at replacing the back-half of those widebodies mentioned above.

Meanwhile, on a.net...
-- DL's decision to defer the 330/350 means it's not happy with the type; after all, according to my friend who makes $9/hour, the 350 can't even handle LAX-SYD!!! A 787 order will be placed within 18 months, to replace the 359.

-- The reason DL hasn't ordered any more widebodies -- even though the 49 on order is larger than the entire widebody fleet of most airlines across the world -- is because they're committed to the NMA, an aircraft that doesn't even exisit. Ed Bastain said so on the Morning Joe, right after a clip of Rachael Maddow saying that ten across 777 were a violation of basic human rights!!!

-----

Sometimes, facts help...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:36 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not sure what you guys are all arguing, but I think you are proving each other's points.

The comments from Richard, Ed, or Glen are all PR/corporate-nonspeak regarding the 787, A330NEO, 797.
Note that every comment quoted is essentially non-committal, in very soft milquetoast language.
The quotes were all made either to Aviation industry magazine/publications or at industry events.
Nowhere was anything definitive ever said that was put in a report or corporate filing.
In many cases, the authors of articles being quoted are making broad assumptions and misquoting what was said.

At the end of the day, using these quotes is all silly - it means absolutely nothing about what was said in years gone by about said aircraft.


I think Delta is serious in their comments to Airbus. They'll buy it if Airbus makes it. We all remember when Richard Anderson said if Boeing offered the 787-10 that it should be in Delta's fleet. Well, after the 787-10 entered production Delta didn't say another word about it.

https://apnews.com/b62a86a21db5484d8d1d3f2485ea5341
 
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:50 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
We all remember when Richard Anderson said if Boeing offered the 787-10 that it should be in Delta's fleet. Well, after the 787-10 entered production Delta didn't say another word about it.

https://apnews.com/b62a86a21db5484d8d1d3f2485ea5341


So Anderson and Delta are on your list of entities that hate Boeing? :sarcastic:

Airline CEOs make nice statements about planes all the time without buying them. They want more choice because that gives them better leverage in negotiations.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:55 am

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
We all remember when Richard Anderson said if Boeing offered the 787-10 that it should be in Delta's fleet. Well, after the 787-10 entered production Delta didn't say another word about it.

https://apnews.com/b62a86a21db5484d8d1d3f2485ea5341


So Anderson and Delta are on your list of entities that hate Boeing? :sarcastic:

Airline CEOs make nice statements about planes all the time without buying them. They want more choice because that gives them better leverage in negotiations.


No. I've remarked several times that it makes sense for Delta to go to an all Airbus fleet. Airways Magazine says that Delta will be going with all Airbus for the future.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-r ... ll-airbus/
 
jagraham
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:40 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
Sad to read that the same old 757-myths are still repeated here. The A321Neo and especially the XLR flies the same payload further than the fossil 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient...


The other issue is performance on short runways, or at hot and high aerodromes. The new PW1135G may help there though.


The A321NEO grows from 86t to 101t in XLR configuration. Same wing and engines. 20% more MTOW. The A321XLR loses about half of the efficiency gain of the A321NEO.

But still, it is a realistic TATL aircraft. And can be ordered now (deliveries are a little backed up at the moment, but may change).
 
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:10 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Sad to read that the same old 757-myths are still repeated here. The A321Neo and especially the XLR flies the same payload further than the fossil 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient...


Exactly. So the MNA pitch is not about the 757 with all those A321 options. That is already sorted. It's about the 763. And that one is problematic as we all know. There just isn't an aircraft on the market with the weight / specs / capacity that DL is looking for. So yes, as some have suggested, the 763 will be run into the ground. And DL may have to adjust their fleet strategy accordingly and opt for a mix of regional A338/339 in the event Boeing doesn't come up with the goods in the required time frame. Frankly, I just don't see DL going for the 787. Not given their current commitments / fleet plan. Not even a 781.
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scbriml
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:19 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
No. I've remarked several times that it makes sense for Delta to go to an all Airbus fleet. Airways Magazine says that Delta will be going with all Airbus for the future.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-r ... ll-airbus/


That really isn't what the article says at all. :shakehead:

It simply points out that, at the time of writing, DL only has Airbus deliveries scheduled. It does not say that DL will only buy Airbus planes in the future. It is very unlikely that DL will ever be "all Airbus".
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:42 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No. I've remarked several times that it makes sense for Delta to go to an all Airbus fleet. Airways Magazine says that Delta will be going with all Airbus for the future.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-r ... ll-airbus/


That really isn't what the article says at all. :shakehead:

It simply points out that, at the time of writing, DL only has Airbus deliveries scheduled. It does not say that DL will only buy Airbus planes in the future. It is very unlikely that DL will ever be "all Airbus".


"Bastian added that the order for the A321neo reflects the airline’s “long-term commitment,” hinting that not only its narrowbody fleet would be manufactured by the European planemaker, but also its widebody/long-haul fleet."

"When Delta canceled its inherited order from Northwest for 18 Boeing 787-8 in December 2016, it was clear that the future was painted in Airbus colors."
 
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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:50 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
No, he's not. Bastian has never made any comments in official capacity regarding the extent of DL's interest in the NMA.


Yes, he did. There are multiple sources available for Ed Bastian's statements that DELTA would like to be be a launch customer for Boeing's NMA.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC.


Sorry, but wrong again. For a senior executive at one of the world's largest publicly-traded companies, everything Ed Bastian says in public that is not off the record is to varying degrees "in official capacity" and "in official manner." Is it a legally-binding commitment? Clearly no, but it is a statement which signals interest and intent and could easily be seen as such by any reasonable person.
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