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Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:29 pm
by scbriml
TTailedTiger wrote:
"Bastian added that the order for the A321neo reflects the airline’s “long-term commitment,” hinting that not only its narrowbody fleet would be manufactured by the European planemaker, but also its widebody/long-haul fleet."

"When Delta canceled its inherited order from Northwest for 18 Boeing 787-8 in December 2016, it was clear that the future was painted in Airbus colors."


Apart from the words "long-term commitment" (and it's not clear from the quote what it's a long-term commitment to), the rest is the author's opinion, not fact as stated by DL.

DL has only just recently finished taking 739s and they'll be in the fleet for at least another 20 years, so it's going to be a very long time before there's even a possibility of DL being "all Airbus" and I'd bet a £ to a penny it never happens.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:32 pm
by LAOCA
WidebodyPTV wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Not sure what you guys are all arguing, but I think you are proving each other's points.

The comments from Richard, Ed, or Glen are all PR/corporate-nonspeak regarding the 787, A330NEO, 797.
Note that every comment quoted is essentially non-committal, in very soft milquetoast language.
The quotes were all made either to Aviation industry magazine/publications or at industry events.
Nowhere was anything definitive ever said that was put in a report or corporate filing.
In many cases, the authors of articles being quoted are making broad assumptions and misquoting what was said.

At the end of the day, using these quotes is all silly - it means absolutely nothing about what was said in years gone by about said aircraft.


-- DL's decision to defer the 330/350 means it's not happy with the type; after all, according to my friend who makes $9/hour, the 350 can't even handle LAX-SYD!!! A 787 order will be placed within 18 months, to replace the 359.

[photoid][/photoid]

-----

Sometimes, facts help...


I know that comment was quoting someone else. I still see people post that on this site and using it as a basis to downgrade the performance of the 350. Which is ridiculous.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:52 pm
by Lootess
DL747400 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
No, he's not. Bastian has never made any comments in official capacity regarding the extent of DL's interest in the NMA.


Yes, he did. There are multiple sources available for Ed Bastian's statements that DELTA would like to be be a launch customer for Boeing's NMA.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC.


Sorry, but wrong again. For a senior executive at one of the world's largest publicly-traded companies, everything Ed Bastian says in public that is not off the record is to varying degrees "in official capacity" and "in official manner." Is it a legally-binding commitment? Clearly no, but it is a statement which signals interest and intent and could easily be seen as such by any reasonable person.


Yep, Ed has been on-record several times about the NMA. There was no one-off, and there is nothing off-the-record about it. The plane still hasn't made it off the paper, it's fairly obvious the NMA is of interest to Delta. Why shouldn't it be?

Regardless of manufacturer, Delta is doing it's service to it's shareholders to look into planes that best serve the company. Bombardier got the sale before the A220 JV. There was no Airbus slant to that, they needed something for the 100 seat market.

Then we had Richard whom was consistent in wanting the 330NEO, there wasn't any doubt about that one. He was talking about it before it was even on-sale. It was a logical choice considering they didn't have the 787, and wanted delivery slots fairly soon. The last Delta CEO had gotten what they wanted in a plane they desired all along. Will Ed be next?

Delta hasn't ordered beyond the A321NEO, and they could still use some narrow bodies, especially the rest of the late-model 757 replacements.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 pm
by ShamrockBoi330
Lootess wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
No, he's not. Bastian has never made any comments in official capacity regarding the extent of DL's interest in the NMA.


Yes, he did. There are multiple sources available for Ed Bastian's statements that DELTA would like to be be a launch customer for Boeing's NMA.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Again... he's not acting in an official manner, talking to stockholders. He's giving an interview on MSNBC.


Sorry, but wrong again. For a senior executive at one of the world's largest publicly-traded companies, everything Ed Bastian says in public that is not off the record is to varying degrees "in official capacity" and "in official manner." Is it a legally-binding commitment? Clearly no, but it is a statement which signals interest and intent and could easily be seen as such by any reasonable person.


Yep, Ed has been on-record several times about the NMA. There was no one-off, and there is nothing off-the-record about it. The plane still hasn't made it off the paper, it's fairly obvious the NMA is of interest to Delta. Why shouldn't it be?

Regardless of manufacturer, Delta is doing it's service to it's shareholders to look into planes that best serve the company. Bombardier got the sale before the A220 JV. There was no Airbus slant to that, they needed something for the 100 seat market.

Then we had Richard whom was consistent in wanting the 330NEO, there wasn't any doubt about that one. He was talking about it before it was even on-sale. It was a logical choice considering they didn't have the 787, and wanted delivery slots fairly soon. The last Delta CEO had gotten what they wanted in a plane they desired all along. Will Ed be next?

Delta hasn't ordered beyond the A321NEO, and they could still use some narrow bodies, especially the rest of the late-model 757 replacements.


But isn't all this past talk or whatever was said in the past meaningless as the NMA being discussed then has been torn up, and BA are off back to the drawing board, with indications now they are looking at a single aisle direct a321 competitor?

EDIT; Never mind the 321 comment, that was in relation to something else.

what am i missing here? everyone is arguing over something that was said about a plane that didn't exsit, only on paper, that has now been binned, no?

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:42 pm
by WidebodyPTV
DL747400 wrote:
Yes, he did. There are multiple sources available for Ed Bastian's statements that DELTA would like to be be a launch customer for Boeing's NMA. ...

Sorry, but wrong again. For a senior executive at one of the world's largest publicly-traded companies, everything Ed Bastian says in public that is not off the record is to varying degrees "in official capacity" and "in official manner." Is it a legally-binding commitment? Clearly no, but it is a statement which signals interest and intent and could easily be seen as such by any reasonable person.


Bastian's has offered his services as an industry expert to comment on Boeing's woes, in exchange for free publicity for DL. Yes, he's said 'we're looking forward to being the launch customer' but he's also followed up on numerous occasions, as I've quoted above, by saying DL's interest is "premature" as the airplane doesn't exist in any form. And DL's mentioned more than once that it won't be able to make a decision on the NMA until it can properly evaluate the aircraft.

DL has already decided upon 49 additional A330/A350. The reason the entire 767 fleet doesn't have a replacement on order is because, at this moment in time, it's intending on extending the service life of its existing fleet -- there's 55 B767 that are about 22yo old or younger, including 29 that are 20yo or younger. Put simply, some of aircraft are either being replaced with the A330/A350 on order, but many of them are simply not up for replacement yet. When the time comes, DL will evaluate its options, and if the NMA is available and is the best fit, an order will come.

But the Boeing fanboys need to stop insisting that it's a done deal, because there's zero truth to that. It's an incredibly strong possibility that Boeing forecasts a limited market for the NMA, meaning its development costs will be projected into fewer aircraft, meaning that its best offer price to DL makes the acquisition unreasonable vs. acquiring A338, should DL desire a smaller widebody.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:59 pm
by ShamrockBoi330
WidebodyPTV wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Yes, he did. There are multiple sources available for Ed Bastian's statements that DELTA would like to be be a launch customer for Boeing's NMA. ...

Sorry, but wrong again. For a senior executive at one of the world's largest publicly-traded companies, everything Ed Bastian says in public that is not off the record is to varying degrees "in official capacity" and "in official manner." Is it a legally-binding commitment? Clearly no, but it is a statement which signals interest and intent and could easily be seen as such by any reasonable person.


Bastian's has offered his services as an industry expert to comment on Boeing's woes, in exchange for free publicity for DL. Yes, he's said 'we're looking forward to being the launch customer' but he's also followed up on numerous occasions, as I've quoted above, by saying DL's interest is "premature" as the airplane doesn't exist in any form. And DL's mentioned more than once that it won't be able to make a decision on the NMA until it can properly evaluate the aircraft.

DL has already decided upon 49 additional A330/A350. The reason the entire 767 fleet doesn't have a replacement on order is because, at this moment in time, it's intending on extending the service life of its existing fleet -- there's 55 B767 that are about 22yo old or younger, including 29 that are 20yo or younger. Put simply, some of aircraft are either being replaced with the A330/A350 on order, but many of them are simply not up for replacement yet. When the time comes, DL will evaluate its options, and if the NMA is available and is the best fit, an order will come.

But the Boeing fanboys need to stop insisting that it's a done deal, because there's zero truth to that. It's an incredibly strong possibility that Boeing forecasts a limited market for the NMA, meaning its development costs will be projected into fewer aircraft, meaning that its best offer price to DL makes the acquisition unreasonable vs. acquiring A338, should DL desire a smaller widebody.


Exactly this! Well said :checkmark:

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:07 am
by delimit
The quotes I could find.
"We have had potential discussions with Boeing about being the launch customer" in 2018
"Boeing has not even made a decision on whether they will launch the aircraft. We hope they will, We are very interested in it." Early 2019
"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us." 2019

Almost all of the other articles I could find tie back to these statements.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:30 pm
by Lootess
delimit wrote:
The quotes I could find.
"We have had potential discussions with Boeing about being the launch customer" in 2018
"Boeing has not even made a decision on whether they will launch the aircraft. We hope they will, We are very interested in it." Early 2019
"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us." 2019

Almost all of the other articles I could find tie back to these statements.


It's the same kind of things that Richard Anderson threw out regularly with Airbus, and for good reason.

“I hope they (Airbus) do offer an A330NEO,” Delta CEO Richard Anderson told Aviation Week in Atlanta. “There is a huge need for a small widebody. We really need Airbus to step up and re-engine.”.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:48 pm
by TTailedTiger
Lootess wrote:
delimit wrote:
The quotes I could find.
"We have had potential discussions with Boeing about being the launch customer" in 2018
"Boeing has not even made a decision on whether they will launch the aircraft. We hope they will, We are very interested in it." Early 2019
"We're in discussions at a very preliminary stage with Boeing and we've expressed our interest to the management team," Bastian said. "The ball really is in Boeing's court. They've heard us." 2019

Almost all of the other articles I could find tie back to these statements.


It's the same kind of things that Richard Anderson threw out regularly with Airbus, and for good reason.

“I hope they (Airbus) do offer an A330NEO,” Delta CEO Richard Anderson told Aviation Week in Atlanta. “There is a huge need for a small widebody. We really need Airbus to step up and re-engine.”.


Well Anderson was from Texas so I guess that influenced his perception of small. But very few people would call the A330 a small widebody. It's anything but with most configurations being 300+ seats. A small widebody is a 762 or A310.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:43 pm
by scbriml
TTailedTiger wrote:
A small widebody is a 762 or A310.


Sure, but when was the last sale of one of those for passenger service?

The smallest available today are the A338 and 788 - the A388 is currently a poor seller and the 788 now only represents just over 10% of the 787 backlog. That leaves the A339 and 789 as pretty much the de-facto smallest widebody planes that airlines are buying today.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:32 am
by delimit
1. He was calling the A330 a small widebody. The A332 was the smallest widebody on the market when he said that, wasn't it?
2. No one actually seems to want the smallest widebody when it is time to pay for them. The larger models always outsell the smaller.

Re: What types will Delta order/option for delivery in 2023/2024?

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:42 pm
by Lootess
I tend to believe he meant the A330 series in-general is the "smallest" widebody class. Wasn't like they were going to order anything but the A339, and considering their previous CEO top-up order.

What I always thought was interesting was also Richard's comments on the 777X and not being interested in an experimental airplane. But the 330NEO was new when Delta got it, and now Ed probably flirting with the NMA. It goes to show how different those two are in some perspective.