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xwb565
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Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:46 pm

Behind paywall for some.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ge-stung-b ... 1582113954

I am surprised at this because I thought RR had an exclusive agreement for the a330neo.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:50 pm

RR does have an exclusive on the A330NEO and A350.

I can understand GE wanting to use surplus GEnX capacity. Nothing wring with pitching to Airbus. Now exclusives have a time limit, only reduced by contract violation.

All widebodies, except the A350, are short on backlog at a time when vI would expect demand to pause. So GE should try.

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Erebus
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:52 pm

I'd believe it if GE is looking to make an offer for a prospective A350neo which would have a much bigger market footprint than the A330neo.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Those news also show, that GE believes that the A330neo will continue to sell.
 
UnMAXed
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:01 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Behind paywall for some.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ge-stung-b ... 1582113954

I am surprised at this because I thought RR had an exclusive agreement for the a330neo.


Full WSJ story here:
https://headtopics.com/us/wsj-news-exclusive-ge-stung-by-boeing-pullback-pitches-for-new-business-with-airbus-11398242
 
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MrBren
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:05 pm

The stillborn A330NEO :lol:
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:07 pm

A330neo will be like the 767, it will continue to be the best product for a fairly wide range of things. The 767 has always been under-estimated. Boiling it down, the reason is because people believe a smaller (or lighter) airplane is less impressive or less good. But in operation, lighter weight, smaller size, lower trip & capital cost pays a dividend _every single hour._ That is something people always have trouble seeing.
 
HIA350
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:14 pm

yup the current CEO's are too good for airlines and are not even close to retirement, but as a pilot once said when a CEO is done a NEO is born
 
Arion640
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:38 pm

MrBren wrote:
The stillborn A330NEO :lol:


Still ticking away and probably will for some time.
 
A388
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:52 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
A330neo will be like the 767, it will continue to be the best product for a fairly wide range of things. The 767 has always been under-estimated. Boiling it down, the reason is because people believe a smaller (or lighter) airplane is less impressive or less good. But in operation, lighter weight, smaller size, lower trip & capital cost pays a dividend _every single hour._ That is something people always have trouble seeing.


But how come it is said that the smaller 73G and 772 haven't become as big successes as their bigger versions (738 and 77W) which are claimed to have the same operating costs with more seat and cargo capacity? I've heard the same goes for the A333 which has improved it capability over the years and now doing almost similar missions its smaller model (A332) was designed to do. Or do you mean something different with the lower trip costs you mention?

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tphuang
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:52 pm

Maybe if ge stopped offering variant of engines it developed for Boeing and start working with airbus a little more, it would actually get some more business from airbus.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:53 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
A330neo will be like the 767, it will continue to be the best product for a fairly wide range of things. The 767 has always been under-estimated. Boiling it down, the reason is because people believe a smaller (or lighter) airplane is less impressive or less good. But in operation, lighter weight, smaller size, lower trip & capital cost pays a dividend _every single hour._ That is something people always have trouble seeing.


The 767 has been out as a passenger frame for quite a while. Lower trip cost is only achieved through lower capital cost. The fuel burn part brings no advantage for 767 regarding trip cost, compared to an A330neo or 787-8.

The A330neo is neither lighter, nor smaller sized and no lower trp cost, than it's competitor. The A330neo is just near enough to it's competition, that other factors, like commonality weigh heavy.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:53 pm

No chance.

RR will have a watertight contract on that - and Airbus will have had no interest in making sure there was a hole in that boat.

Furthermore, the Trent 7000 is beating fuel burn targets. RR have a way to go on other little issues, but GE would have a tough target.
 
xwb565
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:13 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
No chance.

RR will have a watertight contract on that - and Airbus will have had no interest in making sure there was a hole in that boat.

Furthermore, the Trent 7000 is beating fuel burn targets. RR have a way to go on other little issues, but GE would have a tough target.


The only reason in my mind would be that ge is well GE... They could be a very important ally against certain tendencies and tariffs. Having GE engines on the 300 helped Airbus a lot politically in the 70s. Paying RR for breaking the exclusivity need not necessarily be through cash. A spot on a future single aisle program could be offered. I am speculating here of course.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:17 pm

Does the article say which engine they're thinking of offering?
I'm assuming a tailored GenX...

As for the agreement between Airbus and RR, it can always be renegotiated. It would depend on how many concessions RR made to Airbus to be the sole engine vendor and how many more sales Airbus thinks offering GEs would engender.

I doubt Airbus would want to jeopardize their privileged relationship with RR however. Then again, we don't yet know how Brexit is going to affect that.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:21 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
A330neo will be like the 767, it will continue to be the best product for a fairly wide range of things. The 767 has always been under-estimated. Boiling it down, the reason is because people believe a smaller (or lighter) airplane is less impressive or less good. But in operation, lighter weight, smaller size, lower trip & capital cost pays a dividend _every single hour._ That is something people always have trouble seeing.


The 767 has been out as a passenger frame for quite a while. Lower trip cost is only achieved through lower capital cost. The fuel burn part brings no advantage for 767 regarding trip cost, compared to an A330neo or 787-8.

The A330neo is neither lighter, nor smaller sized and no lower trp cost, than it's competitor. The A330neo is just near enough to it's competition, that other factors, like commonality weigh heavy.


You're saying 787-8 can match a 763ER's trip operating cost, and even if that's true, it is academic. Buying a 788 to do a job a 763ER can do would be a waste of capital cost. Or that was the old argument. Now, I might use the A330neo. The case to buy a 788 is really quite difficult if you do not need the range. Paying for all that R&D and capability for near zero fuel burn benefit. It's hard.

The A330 line is paid for. Airbus can afford to let it go for a low price. I would assume A330neo will be as cheap as it needs to be so that Airbus can capture any widebody market below A350 that it wishes to capture.

If fuel burn is nearly the best & it has lowest capital costs, maintenance is known & reasonable, it will be the best tool for more jobs than a more exotic & pricey aircraft will be. Granted I could be wrong, if the new aircraft has dramatic or compelling benefits. But people tend to bias their thinking toward "latest/greatest" airplanes when the actual winner can be a reliable older airplane. A new build older design is the most reliable & predictable thing you could ever buy.
 
queb
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:26 pm

Francoflier wrote:
I doubt Airbus would want to jeopardize their privileged relationship with RR however.


What if Rolls-Royce is the one that jeopardizes their special relationship? I mean, with the Trent 1000 issues, maybe Airbus is worried to have the same engine (almost) as unique option.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:26 pm

Good but impossible.
GE and RR will play their monopoly game on Airbus' and Boeing's widebody series, while CFM and PW kicking each other in the narrowbodies market.
The last time a RR was introduced on a Boe's wb was on the 787s 10 years ago. And the last time a GE became an option for a Airbus' wb was on the A330ceos more than 20 years ago. Those stories won't change (perhaps until PW decides to com back in wb market :D)

Anyway, I would love to hear that the A330-801/901 exist :D.
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olle
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:33 pm

Airbus is about to reach around 50% market share on WB compared to 25% a few years back...

And RR currently has close 100% of Airbus WB business. Not a nice position for GE.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:39 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
A330neo will be like the 767, it will continue to be the best product for a fairly wide range of things. The 767 has always been under-estimated. Boiling it down, the reason is because people believe a smaller (or lighter) airplane is less impressive or less good. But in operation, lighter weight, smaller size, lower trip & capital cost pays a dividend _every single hour._ That is something people always have trouble seeing.


The 767 has been out as a passenger frame for quite a while. Lower trip cost is only achieved through lower capital cost. The fuel burn part brings no advantage for 767 regarding trip cost, compared to an A330neo or 787-8.

The A330neo is neither lighter, nor smaller sized and no lower trp cost, than it's competitor. The A330neo is just near enough to it's competition, that other factors, like commonality weigh heavy.


You're saying 787-8 can match a 763ER's trip operating cost, and even if that's true, it is academic. Buying a 788 to do a job a 763ER can do would be a waste of capital cost. Or that was the old argument. Now, I might use the A330neo. The case to buy a 788 is really quite difficult if you do not need the range. Paying for all that R&D and capability for near zero fuel burn benefit. It's hard.

The A330 line is paid for. Airbus can afford to let it go for a low price. I would assume A330neo will be as cheap as it needs to be so that Airbus can capture any widebody market below A350 that it wishes to capture.

If fuel burn is nearly the best & it has lowest capital costs, maintenance is known & reasonable, it will be the best tool for more jobs than a more exotic & pricey aircraft will be. Granted I could be wrong, if the new aircraft has dramatic or compelling benefits. But people tend to bias their thinking toward "latest/greatest" airplanes when the actual winner can be a reliable older airplane. A new build older design is the most reliable & predictable thing you could ever buy.


There are a lot of reasons to operate a 767 you own or lease cheaply. There are no reason and have not been for a while to buy a new 767 passenger aircraft.
I agree with yo about the A330neo, but I would not look at a 787 as exotic.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:46 pm

This would be a surprising move, I really don't think the A330NEO market is big enough for two engine OEMs, especially considering the head-start RR had.

Also, why would Airbus even care? Let GE stick with their Boeing bias, it's not like the NEO is suffering from lack of engine choice.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:47 pm

This makes no sense at a production rate of 40 pax frames a year with a strong engine incumbent.

But what about for a new proposal to the USAF for a "made in Mobile" tanker derivative?
 
queb
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:48 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
Also, why would Airbus even care? Let GE stick with their Boeing bias, it's not like the NEO is suffering from lack of engine choice.


A GE engine could be good for Airbus if there's a KC-Y competition.
 
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:02 pm

Erebus wrote:
I'd believe it if GE is looking to make an offer for a prospective A350neo which would have a much bigger market footprint than the A330neo.

Indeed, a future A350neo would make more sense.

IIRC RR only have exclusivity on the A350-1000, yet A350-900 is where the sales are now and going forward.

A330neo production just got cut to 40/year from 50/year.

Why would Airbus or GE think that they would make more money by adding a 2nd engine to a relatively slow selling family?

Wasn't RR able to secure an exclusive on the A330neo?

Maybe this is just like the 764-MAX proposal, something to make the GE board think management is trying to think outside the box instead of firing them all.

I suspect this will go quiet, just like the 764-MAX proposal did.
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:06 pm

queb wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
Also, why would Airbus even care? Let GE stick with their Boeing bias, it's not like the NEO is suffering from lack of engine choice.

A GE engine could be good for Airbus if there's a KC-Y competition.

USAF cares about cost not fuel burn.

That's why new KC-46 is still rocking PW4000s with their 1980s tech.
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Jefford717
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:23 pm

Are all the undelivered A330NEO to date firmed that they will be all powered by RR? Will any of the airline that currently has an order for the NEO switch if GE engine becomes an option? I don’t see the business case for GE, maybe they got some extra money to burn? I don’t think the A330neo market is big enough. I also don’t think that Airbus will deliver more than 500 unit by the end of the decade unless there are government contacts (i.e. tanker).
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:36 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
Are all the undelivered A330NEO to date firmed that they will be all powered by RR? Will any of the airline that currently has an order for the NEO switch if GE engine becomes an option? I don’t see the business case for GE, maybe they got some extra money to burn? I don’t think the A330neo market is big enough. I also don’t think that Airbus will deliver more than 500 unit by the end of the decade unless there are government contacts (i.e. tanker).


Considering the A330Neo already has 337 orders (and I could be missing some) means you consider unlikely an scenario where Airbus is able to sell 160 WBs within 10 years, even considering the replacement cicle to come of literally hundreds of CEOs out there. Interesting....
 
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keesje
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:42 pm

GE was very focussed on continuing it's 777 partnership with Boeing. At this stage maybe sales aren't as expected.

The bleed Gen-X is exclusive for the 747-8. At this stage maybe ROI isn't as expected.

LEAP is the only option on the 737 MAX, maybe also progress not as expected.

The 787 is doing Great (ish) Backlog is shrinking & RR is in there too.

Regional CF34's are replaced by GTF's everywhere.

For Airbus it might be attractive too. Engine choice / competition is one of the A330 / NEO / 787 successfactors.

Many airlines are married to GE, CFM, CF6, GE90,GEnx. RR is very territorial on MRO.

Financing through GECAS might be easier for GE powered A330NEO's.

For US carriers, A330 might be cheaper if they get their engines seperately, bought in the US without import duties. :snaggletooth:

https://www.sharecast.com/news/internat ... 26170.html

I don't remember exactly but isn't RR exclusive for the A350-1000 only. I remember GE at the time refused to offer a bigger engine because it could hurt their 777 investment / partnership.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TurboJet707
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:46 pm

If true, good to see that an aviation giant like GE has such confidence in the A330NEO.
If this were to materialise, it could open up opportunities for the 330NEO at airlines that favour GE, like AF or KL.
Yes I'm aware that AF are just taking delivery of RR-powered A350s, but they would normally pick GE whenever they have the chance. Hanging GE engines on the 330NEO could just do the trick for AF and several other airlines. With their 787s going to KL and the 330CEOs + 77E's on the way out in the coming years, a GE-engined 330N could be a good replacement. I can't imagine that the A350 would remain their smallest widebody after the 330CEOs + 77E's will be gone.

RR wouldn't be too happy, I guess
Last edited by TurboJet707 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:50 pm

Perhaps this is just made so that GE has a foot in the door regarding the A350NEO...
 
TFawkes
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:30 pm

tphuang wrote:
Maybe if ge stopped offering variant of engines it developed for Boeing and start working with airbus a little more, it would actually get some more business from airbus.

Maybe if Airbus didn't hand out exclusivity like candy to Rolls Royce to keep it propped up against American competition...

The CFM LEAP was designed for Airbus, but even there, AB preferred hamstringing GE by dual-sourcing through PW.
 
TFawkes
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:39 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
No chance.

RR will have a watertight contract on that - and Airbus will have had no interest in making sure there was a hole in that boat.

Furthermore, the Trent 7000 is beating fuel burn targets. RR have a way to go on other little issues, but GE would have a tough target.

Given the GEnx is already 2% more efficient then the Trent 1000 TEN (see Air New Zealand) and is still awaiting PIPs from the GE9X program, it wouldn't be a tough target for GE at all. That's 4-5% better fuel burn in total if not more.

Given there's rumor of an A350 NEO GEnx proposal too, I'll bet you GE has plenty of performance to extract from the architecture in the next few years.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:56 pm

Seems a bit odd to me, for what is a steady selling but hardly stellar product. Especially when the most successful CEO engine was the Trent 700 (with GE trailing) so many of the potential new buyers of the NEO will be existing RR customers anyway

If "GE" airlines had such an issue with ordering Trent A330NEOs, surely they would have kicked up a fuss about it years ago?
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744SPX
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:16 pm

Well, if GE can offer an engine based on the GE9X with 5% better fuel consumption than the T7000, they might have a shot. Question is how soon they could get it to market.
 
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PM
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:20 pm

I find it hard to see anyone's business case for this but you never know.

But I can sort of see where GE are coming from.

Last year Airbus delivered 53 A330s. Boeing delivered 158 787s. That's 211 together.

RR were on 98 of them (46%) and GE on 113 (54%).

RR gained 30% of 787 deliveries; GE gained 70%.

RR gained 94% of A330 deliveries; GE gained 6%.

RR have about 33% of 787 deliveries going forward (so GE have 77%) whereas GE have just one last A330 to deliver.

Yes, GE are winning on the 787 but when RR throw in their A330 deliveries there's virtually nothing in it.

And with the A350 out-delivering the 777 by more than 2:1 GE will be playing catch up for a while.

RR delivered 55% of all widebody engines in 2018 and 51% in 2019. GE managed 42% and 44% respectively. You can see why they feel they have to do something.
 
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PM
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:21 pm

744SPX wrote:
Well, if GE can offer an engine based on the GE9X with 5% better fuel consumption than the T7000, they might have a shot. Question is how soon they could get it to market.

AND how much it would cost.
AND what the market is for the A330neo.
 
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reidar76
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:34 pm

RalXWB wrote:
Perhaps this is just made so that GE has a foot in the door regarding the A350NEO...


Good point.

No other widebody family sold more in 2019 than the A330neo (net orders). Maybe it would sell even more if there were an engine choice?

I also believe RR out-delivered GE in 2019?
 
dstblj52
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:40 pm

PM wrote:
I find it hard to see anyone's business case for this but you never know.

But I can sort of see where GE are coming from.

Last year Airbus delivered 53 A330s. Boeing delivered 158 787s. That's 211 together.

RR were on 98 of them (46%) and GE on 113 (54%).

RR gained 30% of 787 deliveries; GE gained 70%.

RR gained 94% of A330 deliveries; GE gained 6%.

RR have about 33% of 787 deliveries going forward (so GE have 77%) whereas GE have just one last A330 to deliver.

Yes, GE are winning on the 787 but when RR throw in their A330 deliveries there's virtually nothing in it.

And with the A350 out-delivering the 777 by more than 2:1 GE will be playing catch up for a while.

RR delivered 55% of all widebody engines in 2018 and 51% in 2019. GE managed 42% and 44% respectively. You can see why they feel they have to do something.

67% not 77 percent
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
queb wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
Also, why would Airbus even care? Let GE stick with their Boeing bias, it's not like the NEO is suffering from lack of engine choice.

A GE engine could be good for Airbus if there's a KC-Y competition.

USAF cares about cost not fuel burn.

That's why new KC-46 is still rocking PW4000s with their 1980s tech.


It's also why the C-5 didn't get CF-6 power for the first 200 years of it's life.
 
blogdoguib
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:51 pm

genx would be adapted to equip the a330neo
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
RR does have an exclusive on the A330NEO and A350.

I can understand GE wanting to use surplus GEnX capacity. Nothing wring with pitching to Airbus. Now exclusives have a time limit, only reduced by contract violation.

All widebodies, except the A350, are short on backlog at a time when vI would expect demand to pause. So GE should try.

Lightsaber


I’m not 100% sure about the A330 Neo but Rolls only have exclusivity on the A350-1000.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:08 pm

Airbus should have not wa$ted re$ource$ on the A330NEO. Concentrate on the A350 Program - Instead.

Are there enough A330NEO $ale$ / order$ to even install the GE Engines?
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:13 pm

TFawkes wrote:
Given the GEnx is already 2% more efficient then the Trent 1000 TEN (see Air New Zealand) and is still awaiting PIPs from the GE9X program, it wouldn't be a tough target for GE at all. That's 4-5% better fuel burn in total if not more.


Do you have a link please?
 
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Erebus
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:23 pm

Revelation wrote:
Erebus wrote:
I'd believe it if GE is looking to make an offer for a prospective A350neo which would have a much bigger market footprint than the A330neo.

Indeed, a future A350neo would make more sense.

IIRC RR only have exclusivity on the A350-1000, yet A350-900 is where the sales are now and going forward.

A330neo production just got cut to 40/year from 50/year.

Why would Airbus or GE think that they would make more money by adding a 2nd engine to a relatively slow selling family?

Wasn't RR able to secure an exclusive on the A330neo?

Maybe this is just like the 764-MAX proposal, something to make the GE board think management is trying to think outside the box instead of firing them all.

I suspect this will go quiet, just like the 764-MAX proposal did.


A while back, I recall something about GE in talks with Airbus about powering the A350 (neo?) with a variant of the GEnx. Evidently, that fell silent. But for today's news, it sort of got me thinking. Hypothetically, can GE come up with a single family of GEnx variants with sufficient thrust range to power both the A330neo and the A350-900?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:29 pm

tphuang wrote:
Maybe if ge stopped offering variant of engines it developed for Boeing and start working with airbus a little more, it would actually get some more business from airbus.


GE was the original OEM for the A350 before Airbus re-designed it as the A350XWB.
 
WayexTDI
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Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:35 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Airbus should have not wa$ted re$ource$ on the A330NEO. Concentrate on the A350 Program - Instead.

Are there enough A330NEO $ale$ / order$ to even install the GE Engines?

Really? 337 frames sold so far (excluding options), 45 delivered so far (41 in 2019) for an estimated $2 billion and a lot of commonality with a program that has sold almost 1,500 frames; for whatever reason, that doesn't sound too bad.

In comparison (I know, the planes are not in direct competition, but the analogy still sticks): the 777X has sold 309 frames (200 of which are to the ME3 and could be - at least partly - in jeopardy given the condition of the finance of their home countries) for a development cost estimated at over $5 billion... Do you consider that Boeing should have foregone the 777X as well?
 
Amiga500
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Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:38 pm

Could GE be persuaded to do a smaller GEnx?

Cutting the weight down to <5 Tonne and thrust down to maybe 265 kN or less might allow for a lightened, smaller winged, shorter range A330-500 to be launched.

Is there the market? Not sure its a worthwhile investment or not with the A321XLR.
 
TFawkes
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:51 pm

Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:39 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
TFawkes wrote:
Given the GEnx is already 2% more efficient then the Trent 1000 TEN (see Air New Zealand) and is still awaiting PIPs from the GE9X program, it wouldn't be a tough target for GE at all. That's 4-5% better fuel burn in total if not more.


Do you have a link please?


https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 62.article

GE convinced ANZ to change over from the T1000 to the GEnx for fuel burn efficiency reasons as stated in the article.

Now, either that's because the GEnx is already more efficient by a significant enough percentage, or because the Ceramic Matrix Composite PIP will be ready to go by the time ANZ gets their 787-10s. Either way, given the proposal for an A350 NEO, I think it's safe to say GE is working hard on competitive improvements, and knocking this idea is probably short-sighted.

The A330-800 has a brochure range of 15,100km. If GE can provide a 4-5% fuel burn improvement, that could potentially rise to the 16,090km range of the A350-1000, making it a VERY competitive "thin" route ULH craft.

If Boeing's 788 improvements don't push its range that high, Airbus will be unchallenged in that market segment.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:42 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
PM wrote:
I find it hard to see anyone's business case for this but you never know.

But I can sort of see where GE are coming from.

Last year Airbus delivered 53 A330s. Boeing delivered 158 787s. That's 211 together.

RR were on 98 of them (46%) and GE on 113 (54%).

RR gained 30% of 787 deliveries; GE gained 70%.

RR gained 94% of A330 deliveries; GE gained 6%.

RR have about 33% of 787 deliveries going forward (so GE have 77%) whereas GE have just one last A330 to deliver.

Yes, GE are winning on the 787 but when RR throw in their A330 deliveries there's virtually nothing in it.

And with the A350 out-delivering the 777 by more than 2:1 GE will be playing catch up for a while.

RR delivered 55% of all widebody engines in 2018 and 51% in 2019. GE managed 42% and 44% respectively. You can see why they feel they have to do something.

67% not 77 percent

They are giving 110%
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1771
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Report: GE may offer engine for a330neo

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:42 pm

GE Aviation is in somewhat muddy waters these days:
- the LEAP-1B production and deliveries are slowing down (if not stopped at all) due to the 737 MAX grounding;
- the LEAP-1C is in jeopardy due to the US administration wondering if they should pull the Export License;
- the GE9X is not bringing in the revenues yet due to the 777X delay;
- the GEnx-2B (747-8) is basically done;
- the GEnx-1B (787) is starting to slow down (due to the reduction in 787 production).

All of this is starting to weight heavily on them; it's no wonder they're looking for potential additional source of revenue.

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