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PacoMartin
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Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:53 pm

Ontario's future about 15 years ago was clearly defined. As LAX grew beyond its capacity, Ontario would be the reliever airport. Now of course, Ontario went from 7.2 million passengers in 2007, down to 4.1 million in 2014, and back up to 5.6 million in 2019. Meanwhile LAX has ballooned to 88 million passengers in 2019 and still growing fast. Seeing the airport's potential, Frontier airlines is starting flights from Ontario to:

Las Vegas (begins April 23, 2020),
Miami (begins April 23, 2020),
Newark (begins April 23, 2020),
Guatemala City (begins May 10, 2020),
San Salvador (begins June 18, 2020).

Is the vision of Ontario as a reliever for LAX dead forever? I feel like LAX should begin planning for a floating runway before very long as was proposed for SAN replacement.

Sometimes, I feel like LAX is going to push out regional airlines by increasing landing fees, in order to make runway space for the bigger jets. Perhaps American Eagle will have to move to Ontario.

American Eagle from LAX
Albuquerque, Denver, El Paso, Eugene, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Fresno, Houston–Intercontinental, Mazatlán, Medford, Montrose, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Portland (OR), Puerto Vallarta, Redmond-Bend, Reno/Tahoe, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose (CA), Santa Fe (resumes April 11, 2020), Seattle/Tacoma, Tucson, Tulsa, Vancouver
Seasonal: Aspen, Bozeman (resumes June 4, 2020), Durango (CO), Flagstaff, Glacier Park/Kalispell, Jackson Hole, Santa Rosa

American to Ontario: Dallas/Fort Worth, Phoenix–Sky Harbor
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:08 pm

AA would switch XNA to an A319. They are connecting TPAC traffic via Walmart and Tyson, same as United with SFO/XNA. I'll not complain as AA's round trip fares are decent with the 2x daily service when booked in advance.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:18 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Sometimes, I feel like LAX is going to push out regional airlines by increasing landing fees, in order to make runway space for the bigger jets.


That's already been litigated. Fees must be reasonable (reflecting the cost base) and non-discriminatory (not different for different carriers, not discriminating by landing weight...) If LAWA gets too creative the carriers will be in court within a week.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:20 pm

:shakehead: :shakehead:

Whole point of American Eagle is to provide feed for mainline.

AA is not splitting up its operation at LAX.

Matter of fact they are growing with more gates on the way, and soon the expanded AS partnership which makes LAX even more important.


And as someone that is in and out of ONT for work pretty regularly, its essentially just a community airport - same like BUR, LGB etc. Its has a niche and catchment area.

If anything ONT future is with cargo, as UPS expands, and FedEx soon arrives once its new facility is complete.
I fly your boxes
 
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msp747
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:23 pm

Not to get off track, but a floating runway at LAX? That would never even be considered, let alone studied. LAX may try again in the future to further separate the two northern runways, like they did awhile back (opposition shut that dream down), but they will never build a new runway in the water.
 
SQ317
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:25 pm

In terms of runway capacity LAX is far below its 2000 peak of 783,000
 
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janders
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:43 pm

So many odd assumptions in this thread by OPer.

No, LAX won't be getting a floating runway. Besides environmental and cost issues why would it need it? Airfield operates below capacity. With 4 parallel runways and near always good weather it can move lots more metal if needed.

No, AA is not splitting its Eagle operation over to ONT. As mentioned by other posters the reason for Eagle is to feed mainline. Eagle also provides AA good network coverage opportunity running markets from LAX hub where AA cant support mainline yet.

No, LAX won't and cant legally kick out smaller regional planes. Pre 9/11 the SFO Mayor had an idea to reduce regional ops due to the airport's famous delays, but FAA made it clear and airport cannot discriminate. Only thing LAX has done in this regard is ban small prop operations at gates which led to the remote regional facilities.

For ONT, its indeed a community airport located in eastern LA County almost bordering San Bernardino. Its hardly practical airport for much of the LA Basin, and much of its fate will be tied to the economics of its surrounding community. One good thing it has going for it these days is cargo. The inland Empire is full of warehouse and distribution centers, so ONT along with other airports like SBD(Amazon setting up a hub) will benefit from air freight.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
tootallsd
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:44 pm

Fifteen years ago, ONT was a part of LA Airport System, now it is independent. As such, it is in the process of finding its way. Part of its independence is based on the concept that it must find its own market niche without reliance on other LA airports and establish a market presence and catchment area. Growth has definitely happened with nonstop flights on Delta to Atlanta, the arrival in 2020 of Frontier and the China Airlines flight to Taipei.

The role is quite different, how to become the airport of choice for the Riverside/San Bernardino/Inland Empire and out into the desert towards Palm Springs and parts of northern Orange County etc. Right now, the actual cities serviced show a bias towards linking US3 + SW hubs for onward travel.

> 25% of flights, not seats, support inter-California flying led by Southwest (our airline of choice), upcoming service from Frontier and UAL's flight to the home base in SFO.
> 68% of flight support destinations in the US. All US3 flights are to their respective hubs for onward connections. Frontier has four new destinations -- we will see how they do.
> And then we have two international flights: Taipei and Guadalajara.

I understand your point that you see LAX forcing regional flying out of LAX, however, I think the will come at tremendous cost to the US3. As you have cited Eagle, many of those city pairs exist to feed and support the LAX AA hub. How much connecting traffic would be interrupted by the loss of these flights? Some of the city pairs would not support up gauging to mainline equipment. And there are many that represent pure O&D destinations of interest to Angelenos. Those could potentially be relocated but where do they go? Would someone living in Santa Monica drive to Ontario to catch a flight to Jackson Hole. Other area airports suffer from congestion and limits: Long Beach, Santa Ana and Burbank. Ontario indeed is a good case in terms of capacity but I don't see consumers being pleased with the options.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:48 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Ontario's future about 15 years ago was clearly defined. As LAX grew beyond its capacity, Ontario would be the reliever airport. Now of course, Ontario went from 7.2 million passengers in 2007, down to 4.1 million in 2014, and back up to 5.6 million in 2019. Meanwhile LAX has ballooned to 88 million passengers in 2019 and still growing fast. Seeing the airport's potential, Frontier airlines is starting flights from Ontario to:

Las Vegas (begins April 23, 2020),
Miami (begins April 23, 2020),
Newark (begins April 23, 2020),
Guatemala City (begins May 10, 2020),
San Salvador (begins June 18, 2020).

Is the vision of Ontario as a reliever for LAX dead forever? I feel like LAX should begin planning for a floating runway before very long as was proposed for SAN replacement.

Sometimes, I feel like LAX is going to push out regional airlines by increasing landing fees, in order to make runway space for the bigger jets. Perhaps American Eagle will have to move to Ontario.

American Eagle from LAX
Albuquerque, Denver, El Paso, Eugene, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Fresno, Houston–Intercontinental, Mazatlán, Medford, Montrose, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Portland (OR), Puerto Vallarta, Redmond-Bend, Reno/Tahoe, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose (CA), Santa Fe (resumes April 11, 2020), Seattle/Tacoma, Tucson, Tulsa, Vancouver
Seasonal: Aspen, Bozeman (resumes June 4, 2020), Durango (CO), Flagstaff, Glacier Park/Kalispell, Jackson Hole, Santa Rosa

American to Ontario: Dallas/Fort Worth, Phoenix–Sky Harbor


Dear God. It is very interesting all the time you put into your lengthy posts then add ridiculous ideas such as moving feeder flights to a completely different airport 50 miles away and adding floating runways. Have you been to LAX? Have you even looked at a map? You can copy and paste though. The runways are perpendicular to the coast. So where would a “floating runway” go exactly? Unbelievable.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:55 pm

Ontario's future is to work in concert with SNA, BUR, and LGB to relieve some of the pressure off LAX by providing local alternatives. Compared to LGB, SNA, and BUR, ONT as the advantages of plenty of airfield and terminal space for growth. However, it has the disadvantage of its local catchment area isn't as well off as the others which reduces local demand, and no slot or curfew restrictions. LAX's offering of nonstop flights to so many global locations means it will always be the area's primary airport.

Cargo seems like it could be a good growth area for ONT. There are many industrial warehouses in the area that could take advantage of the airport's proximity. I could see a push at some point in the future to move the international cargo operations from LAX to free up a bit of congestion there, though that would have to be an industry effort to move the related businesses (freight forwarders, etc) as well. If I'm reading this map correctly, there are existing rail lines that could connect ONT to the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, which could mitigate the impact of moving the flights further away from the ports.

An offshore floating runway at LAX is at least an absurd idea as doing so at SAN, and will never happen. You're not talking about building in an open harbor like HKG or KIX, but in the open ocean. SAN may have San Diego bay, But the Coronado Bridge gets in the way and a runway there would also impact access to Naval Station San Diego, so that won't happen either.
 
many321
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:59 pm

For those trashing the poster with condescending posts, give them a break. Their ideas are aloof, but not merit what I'm reading.

For ONT itself, at the moment they're finding its footing and only time will show what will occur.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:31 pm

The only airport in Southern California that does NOT have neighbors standing by ready to bulldoze the millisecond their NIMBY-esque lawsuits force the closure of is ONT.

BUR, SNA, LGB, Santa Monica, Van Nuys, and even LAX (El Segundo) have angry neighbors who loathe and detest the airports near to them."They should all just go somewhere else - I don't know where, I don't care where, just so long as it's not around me!!" Everybody wants one convenient to them - when they need it. Otherwise, planes need to be far away, with no noise ever. Long Beach, in particular, reserves a special level of seething contempt towards their airport. I guess they can't hear the freeways or the incredible number of big-rig trucks bringing their Wal-Mart cr*p through their city for distribution.

Ontario, on the other hand, might as well be on another planet. The Inland Empire. while technically part of the L.A. region, is far enough away that ONT is not an option. It is not in the center of big business (and therefore premium driven demand), so it is merely an "option" for airlines and customers, rather than a desired destination. At best, it is one hour from LAX, at worst, well, there is no vision of hell clearer than Los Angeles in gridlock. It won't happen. Heck, at the worst of times, Bakersfield (BFL) is closer by car than ONT is (based on driving times!)

I don't have the answers. NIMBY's who move in and block anything and everything that would benefit the community are the bane of humanity - and especially with airports. But even reliever plans, such as some kind of high-speed mass transit to ONT, would take decades, and that would be just to ease airport traffic.

I give credit for those who work towards finding solutions; however, ironically enough, I am writing this post after just completing a scheduling meeting at school, where, given the parameters of times, dates, textbook and electronic device return and check-in before graduation, only one solution could be found. And everyone has had an objection, based solely on personal preferences. One solid hour of explaining over and over and over again, ad nauseum,, that there is NO magic solution hidden underneath, waiting to be discovered. To those of you hoping to find solutions, keep trying - but remember the parameters of life in Southern California, or whatever region you are discussing.
 
cynlb
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:37 pm

There's a proposal to extend the Metro Gold line to Ontario Airport, which would help make it a more viable option especially for those coming from Downtown LA-

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/01/3 ... rport/amp/
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:44 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I am writing this post after just completing a scheduling meeting...


That sounds like my vision of hell!
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:00 pm

cynlb wrote:
There's a proposal to extend the Metro Gold line to Ontario Airport, which would help make it a more viable option especially for those coming from Downtown LA-

https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/01/3 ... rport/amp/


That would be a great thing indeed.

Ontario could be a great airport, if only it had the ground connections. That goes for most of the airports in the area including LAX. Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.
 
cooley21
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:43 pm

ONT is located within San bernadino county.

janders wrote:
So many odd assumptions in this thread by OPer.

No, LAX won't be getting a floating runway. Besides environmental and cost issues why would it need it? Airfield operates below capacity. With 4 parallel runways and near always good weather it can move lots more metal if needed.

No, AA is not splitting its Eagle operation over to ONT. As mentioned by other posters the reason for Eagle is to feed mainline. Eagle also provides AA good network coverage opportunity running markets from LAX hub where AA cant support mainline yet.

No, LAX won't and cant legally kick out smaller regional planes. Pre 9/11 the SFO Mayor had an idea to reduce regional ops due to the airport's famous delays, but FAA made it clear and airport cannot discriminate. Only thing LAX has done in this regard is ban small prop operations at gates which led to the remote regional facilities.

For ONT, its indeed a community airport located in eastern LA County almost bordering San Bernardino. Its hardly practical airport for much of the LA Basin, and much of its fate will be tied to the economics of its surrounding community. One good thing it has going for it these days is cargo. The inland Empire is full of warehouse and distribution centers, so ONT along with other airports like SBD(Amazon setting up a hub) will benefit from air freight.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:58 pm

Ontario is very convenient for anyone living in the east of the Valley. It's easier to get to and easier to park than LAX. I think if they work on improving transport connections (for example, providing a shuttle bus to the train station and Pasadena) it could become more successful. They do have a China Airlines long-haul flight to Taipei.
 
jonair8
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:18 pm

A lot of airports in the LA area do best serving the regions they're in. ONT would've been the best situated to be the reliever for LAX I agree, but I would say its objective has changed, especially with reversion back to the city of Ontario instead of LAWA. LAWA initially tried the reliever airport strategy, but found it earns more revenue by having more traffic flow through LAX. ONT did not generate as much revenue for LAWA, especially during the recession and the collapse of the economy in the Inland Empire, so it was then neglected in terms of attracting new service, expanding service, and serving that region of CA. The primary focus was making sure LAX kept growing. That being said, the OIAA has made great strides in trying to regrow ONT, not as a reliever to LAX, but as its own destination, an important hub for cargo with Amazon, FedEx, and UPS, an airport that best serves the residents of the Inland Empire, and that serves visitors as a convenient option into SoCal without the crowds and congestion.

PacoMartin wrote:
Frontier airlines is starting flights from Ontario to:

Las Vegas (begins April 23, 2020),
Miami (begins April 23, 2020),
Newark (begins April 23, 2020),
Guatemala City (begins May 10, 2020),
San Salvador (begins June 18, 2020).

I think F9 holds the keys to the future at ONT. With their large order books of Airbuses and their lofty expansion plans, they still do not have a large presence in SoCal. It is far too important of a market in the US to pass up. B6 had LGB, tried BUR briefly, and now has LAX, NK is in LAX, and G4 is in LAX. There is not as much room at LAX as there used to be. As such, if you examine F9's SoCal destinations, LAX, SAN, SNA, and ONT, ONT will have the most destinations on F9. I really see F9 picking ONT as their large SoCal gateway, since it is underserved, has plenty of unused resources, and much of the market that uses ONT (leisure, low fare oriented) is best suited on F9. There is little competition in ONT which F9 sees as an opportunity in SoCal. It is also a fun fact that out of all destinations they could've served from SAL and GUA, which are brand new to F9, they chose ONT and MIA.

PacoMartin wrote:
Sometimes, I feel like LAX is going to push out regional airlines by increasing landing fees, in order to make runway space for the bigger jets. Perhaps American Eagle will have to move to Ontario.

The congestion and lack of space is definitely not helped by the large number of regional flights, but airlines will start looking toward upgauging their regional flights to mainline in LAX. It'll increase the market share of the amount of seats available while not significantly increasing the amount of movements or gates needed. I do not see any passenger operation picking up and moving from LAX to ONT due to congestion and lack of space though.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:54 pm

NWAESC wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I am writing this post after just completing a scheduling meeting...


That sounds like my vision of hell!


:D

Actually, it isn't so bad - I'm the one who is good at doing it. Like a word fill-in puzzle. I'm lucky they like my work!!

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Ontario could be a great airport, if only it had the ground connections. That goes for most of the airports in the area including LAX. Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.


It's on the way!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crenshaw/LAX_Line

It's all visible on Google Maps as well.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:33 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Ontario could be a great airport, if only it had the ground connections. That goes for most of the airports in the area including LAX. Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.


It's on the way!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crenshaw/LAX_Line

It's all visible on Google Maps as well.


Crenshaw/LAX line is not a direct ride to Union Station. It will take passengers north to Expo/Crenshaw station, who will then have to transfer to the Expo line to 7th Street/Metro Center, and then take the Red or Purple to Union Station. Three different trains, just like the existing route from the Green line.

This assumes the majority of passengers would want to head to Union Station. But it seems like it terminates at an arbitrary endpoint forcing a transfer to another line to reach the metro rail hub at Metro Center. According to Wikipedia however, Metro elected not to do this since joining the Expo line would put the Flower Street segment over capacity handling Crenshaw/LAX, Expo, and Blue line trains.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:14 pm

hawaiian717 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Ontario could be a great airport, if only it had the ground connections. That goes for most of the airports in the area including LAX. Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.


It's on the way!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crenshaw/LAX_Line

It's all visible on Google Maps as well.


Crenshaw/LAX line is not a direct ride to Union Station. It will take passengers north to Expo/Crenshaw station, who will then have to transfer to the Expo line to 7th Street/Metro Center, and then take the Red or Purple to Union Station. Three different trains, just like the existing route from the Green line.

This assumes the majority of passengers would want to head to Union Station. But it seems like it terminates at an arbitrary endpoint forcing a transfer to another line to reach the metro rail hub at Metro Center. According to Wikipedia however, Metro elected not to do this since joining the Expo line would put the Flower Street segment over capacity handling Crenshaw/LAX, Expo, and Blue line trains.


Excellent points; however, it will be faster than trying to take the FlyAway bus from Union Station.

Union Station in L.A., for those who have never visited, has a LOT more train riders than one might think. It's a slow-boat to China from San Diego to Union Station, then an even slower ride to LAX, but on the "going" segment, it's fine. But Union Station connects Amtrak (and Amtrak buses), Metrolink, Subways, and bus routes. It's a WHOLE lot busier than I thought, and is quite the transfer facility!
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:26 pm

janders wrote:
So many odd assumptions in this thread by OPer. No, LAX won't be getting a floating runway. Besides environmental and cost issues why would it need it? Airfield operates below capacity. With 4 parallel runways and near always good weather it can move lots more metal if needed.


I didn't just pull them from my butt. When the riots happened in the 1970s when Japan was building Narita airport, the federal government swore they would only build future airports over the water, by creating artificial islands. The first one was in Nagasaki in 1975, but later, Kansai International Airport, Kobe Airport, Kitakyushu Airport, and Chūbu Centrair International Airport were all built over water.

The idea has been floated for California airports for decades. Of course, unlike Japan where artificial islands could be built (I consider any island artifical that only barely resembles the original island as artificial), California has a steep continental ridge near the shore so a floating runway is only option.

Although it is an expensive option, it probably wouldn't cost more than a new airport in the desert and a high speed train which are the options most often discussed.

LAX and SAN both took advantage of upgauged jet size adopted by US airlines to buy them a few more decades.

janders wrote:
No, AA is not splitting its Eagle operation over to ONT. As mentioned by other posters the reason for Eagle is to feed mainline. Eagle also provides AA good network coverage opportunity running markets from LAX hub where AA cant support mainline yet.


Once again I am not an idiot.
I understand that the primary purpose of regional airlines is to feed the mainline operation.

Some of the American Eagle destinations from LAX are not feeders. In particular
Mazatlán, Puerto Vallarta, Vancouver and Seasonal: Aspen, Bozeman (resumes June 4, 2020), Durango (CO), Flagstaff, Glacier Park/Kalispell, Jackson Hole, Santa Rosa

These routes may function as stand-alone.

janders wrote:
No, LAX won't and cant legally kick out smaller regional planes. Pre 9/11 the SFO Mayor had an idea to reduce regional ops due to the airport's famous delays, but FAA made it clear and airport cannot discriminate. Only thing LAX has done in this regard is ban small prop operations at gates which led to the remote regional facilities.


You are correct, the FAA does not allow an airport to kick out any class of airplane. The only thing an airport can do is charge landing fees per flight, which discourages airlines from using small planes. Regional airlines are more important to LAX than they are to SAN.

And LAX won't try and make it difficult for regional airlines for as long as they can. But airports will eventually have no other options if they can't expand. It is just a basic law of physics. MEX is pretty much at that point where they will kick out Aeromar which has 3 ATR 42-600 (48 seats) and 7 ATR 72-600 (72 seats).
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:02 am

ONT is a regional or community airport that will rise and fall based on the Inland Empire and its economy.

The airport does not make much sense for bulk of LA basin travelers but does as others have mentioned a bright potential future as an even more important cargo airport. FedEx in coming years will shift its LAX regional hub operation to ONT once its new facility is built, and more carriers might follow.


The idea of LAX getting an offshore runway - I ask why? Airfield operates well below its hourly traffic capacity. No need to even weed into the environmental, financial or logistical details.

And also forget the notion that AA will split its Eagle operation and move some to ONT at expense of LAX.

cynlb wrote:
There's a proposal to extend the Metro Gold line to Ontario Airport, which would help make it a more viable option especially for those coming from Downtown LA-


Maybe 2030 or later at best, with lots of stops on the way. Even then won't be to the terminal as initial studies have looked at existing Amtrak or Metrolink right of way. So likely envolve a bus ride to reach.

Image

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.


The FlyAway bus is actually a pretty good option. Takes carpool lane on the entire freeway portion with travel time advertised as 30min.

Of course, the entire FlyAway bus model has been a financial lemon with many routes tried and dropped over the years. Locals don't really ride a bus, favoring cars instead.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:34 am

LAXintl wrote:

cynlb wrote:
There's a proposal to extend the Metro Gold line to Ontario Airport, which would help make it a more viable option especially for those coming from Downtown LA-


Maybe 2030 or later at best, with lots of stops on the way. Even then won't be to the terminal as initial studies have looked at existing Amtrak or Metrolink right of way. So likely envolve a bus ride to reach.


I've received several mailings about an ongoing pilot program in which if you ride the Metrolink to the stations closest to ONT, you can get a free* Lyft ride to take you to the airport (there's a maximum discount, but the mailing indicates it will usually be no cost to the passenger). I personally haven't done it, but it appears they're considering adapting the program for the long-term, if there's enough interest. Probably far cheaper than extending the lines...

The FlyAway bus is actually a pretty good option. Takes carpool lane on the entire freeway portion with travel time advertised as 30min.

Of course, the entire FlyAway bus model has been a financial lemon with many routes tried and dropped over the years. Locals don't really ride a bus, favoring cars instead.


FlyAway may have been more successful if it had properly marketed itself. When it served Irvine, the service was cheap (RT$50, and kids rode for free until they reached ninth grade) and parking was free. Most people I associated with weren't aware of the service, and it quickly tanked, with FlyAway cutting departures until ending service.

I actually use FlyAway quite a bit. From Irvine, during the morning rush, it can take three hours to reach LAX, so taking the train to Union Station and transferring to FlyAway can save quite a bit of time. I do a lot of business in DTLA, so I have a monthly Metrolink card, so FlyAway is free. The trains are very reliable, and Amtrak has been running both a Superliner (for the end coach) and long distance lounge car on the early train, so the ride is more comfortable than sitting on the 405... unfortunately, the bus is usually lightly loaded, so I suspect it won't last a whole long longer...
 
gregn21
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:09 am

The commentary and livid response to OP on this absurd thread is hilarious. Hardest I've laughed in awhile!
 
gregn21
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:27 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:14 am

PacoMartin wrote:
Some of the American Eagle destinations from LAX are not feeders. In particular
Mazatlán, Puerto Vallarta, Vancouver and Seasonal: Aspen, Bozeman (resumes June 4, 2020), Durango (CO), Flagstaff, Glacier Park/Kalispell, Jackson Hole, Santa Rosa

These routes may function as stand-alone.



Literally every single one of these routes would almost surely be a major loser without LAX feed. Granted, much of the feed for these particular destinations likely come from other regional/Eagle flying. Nonetheless, it is a ridiculous idea to move small market flights to a non-hub regional airport.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Topic Author
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Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:03 am

gregn21 wrote:
The commentary and livid response to OP on this absurd thread is hilarious. Hardest I've laughed in awhile!

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=375561

Here is a thread from 14 years ago that was LOCKED because of ridiculous comments.

The general response is that the four runways of LAX will be able to handle ∞ growth in passengers and aircraft operations. All discussion otherwise is to be ridiculed.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26254
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:07 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Ontario could be a great airport, if only it had the ground connections. That goes for most of the airports in the area including LAX. Arriving passengers just want to hop on public transport as soon as they land and the LAX express bus is hardly an option. Try getting to Union Station from either airport, the best one of the largest airports in the world is able to offer is a bus. It's a disgrace, there should be a rail connection straight to Union Station right at the terminal. LAX fails here, but Ontario could just have it.


It's on the way!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crenshaw/LAX_Line

It's all visible on Google Maps as well.


Crenshaw/LAX line is not a direct ride to Union Station. It will take passengers north to Expo/Crenshaw station, who will then have to transfer to the Expo line to 7th Street/Metro Center, and then take the Red or Purple to Union Station. Three different trains, just like the existing route from the Green line.

This assumes the majority of passengers would want to head to Union Station. But it seems like it terminates at an arbitrary endpoint forcing a transfer to another line to reach the metro rail hub at Metro Center. According to Wikipedia however, Metro elected not to do this since joining the Expo line would put the Flower Street segment over capacity handling Crenshaw/LAX, Expo, and Blue line trains.


What is currently the Expo line will merge with the northern half of the Gold line and connect one stop to Union from Crenshaw.
a.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2962
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:00 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Image
Haven't been to ONT in ages but seems that if ONT airport would pay Amtrak for an ONT airport station linked to one of the terminals, Amtrak trains might stop there?
Well BWI (Northeast corridor, not the best comparison none the less) does have its own station and Amtrak trains stop there.
The other option, which reminds of South East Florida, is something like the (private) commuter train running between West Palm Beach and Miami Airport for ONT.
Would anyone invest in a private (commuter) train line between ONT and Los Angeles Amtrak Station?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 412
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:33 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Image
Haven't been to ONT in ages but seems that if ONT airport would pay Amtrak for an ONT airport station linked to one of the terminals, Amtrak trains might stop there?
Well BWI (Northeast corridor, not the best comparison none the less) does have its own station and Amtrak trains stop there.
The other option, which reminds of South East Florida, is something like the (private) commuter train running between West Palm Beach and Miami Airport for ONT.
Would anyone invest in a private (commuter) train line between ONT and Los Angeles Amtrak Station?


You’d still have to get to the train station is the problem. For many that would mean at least one city bus trip. Often more. Buses aren’t highly efficient here as they still sit in traffic on city streets. A friend has an hour+ bus ride from DTLA to Silverlake - just a few miles. So you’re talking a metro ride for many to Union Station, then a train ride, then a shuttle ride. It will be a hard sell in a car centric town.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6193
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:27 pm

I do wish the flight from ONT to IAH wouldnt be a red eye. The outbound getting in late is fine but that return is awful.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2856
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:58 pm

I spotted this writeup today:

Courtesy: Airways Magazine

ONTARIO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT REPORTS 15% CLIMB IN PASSENGER VOLUME

"Airlines and air travelers continue to show tremendous confidence in Ontario’s facilities, services, and amenities, not to mention the first-rate, hassle-free customer experience we strive to provide every day,” added Thorpe."

https://airwaysmag.com/airports/ont-15-january-climb-in-passenger-volume/
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5038
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:08 am

PacoMartin wrote:
Ontario's future about 15 years ago was clearly defined. As LAX grew beyond its capacity, Ontario would be the reliever airport. Now of course, Ontario went from 7.2 million passengers in 2007, down to 4.1 million in 2014, and back up to 5.6 million in 2019. Meanwhile LAX has ballooned to 88 million passengers in 2019 and still growing fast. Seeing the airport's potential, Frontier airlines is starting flights from Ontario to:

Las Vegas (begins April 23, 2020),
Miami (begins April 23, 2020),
Newark (begins April 23, 2020),
Guatemala City (begins May 10, 2020),
San Salvador (begins June 18, 2020).

Is the vision of Ontario as a reliever for LAX dead forever? I feel like LAX should begin planning for a floating runway before very long as was proposed for SAN replacement.

Sometimes, I feel like LAX is going to push out regional airlines by increasing landing fees, in order to make runway space for the bigger jets. Perhaps American Eagle will have to move to Ontario.

American Eagle from LAX
Albuquerque, Denver, El Paso, Eugene, Fayetteville/Bentonville, Fresno, Houston–Intercontinental, Mazatlán, Medford, Montrose, Oklahoma City, Omaha, Phoenix–Sky Harbor, Portland (OR), Puerto Vallarta, Redmond-Bend, Reno/Tahoe, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose (CA), Santa Fe (resumes April 11, 2020), Seattle/Tacoma, Tucson, Tulsa, Vancouver
Seasonal: Aspen, Bozeman (resumes June 4, 2020), Durango (CO), Flagstaff, Glacier Park/Kalispell, Jackson Hole, Santa Rosa

American to Ontario: Dallas/Fort Worth, Phoenix–Sky Harbor

ONT was under the LAWA management for a pretty long time. But the beneficiary of that was UPS. ONT is the bottom of the Central Valley and the top of the Imperial valley
so? Unless there's some new extension of I-10 solely for the connection of LAX to ONT? and PSP isn't closed? Then ONT will remain an airport looking for passengers.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:47 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Image
Haven't been to ONT in ages but seems that if ONT airport would pay Amtrak for an ONT airport station linked to one of the terminals, Amtrak trains might stop there?
Well BWI (Northeast corridor, not the best comparison none the less) does have its own station and Amtrak trains stop there.
The other option, which reminds of South East Florida, is something like the (private) commuter train running between West Palm Beach and Miami Airport for ONT.
Would anyone invest in a private (commuter) train line between ONT and Los Angeles Amtrak Station?


Amtrak only serves the regional once per day on the Chief (late evening eastbound, early morning westbound). I doubt Amtrak would be interested in operating regular service between the IE & Los Angeles. Heck, every few years that state brings up the topic of taking over the Surfliner from Amtrak...
 
BGS91762
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:14 pm

Metrolink already has many trains serving the ONT area to LA. Free Lyft to each station.
 
BGS91762
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:32 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:52 pm

gregn21 wrote:
The commentary and livid response to OP on this absurd thread is hilarious. Hardest I've laughed in awhile!

I ride Flyaway all the time from Union Station after connecting from Metrolink. From my experience it is always packed. Don’t think they will take away this route as it connects to all of So Cal.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Ontario's airport Future

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:04 am

BGS91762 wrote:
I ride Flyaway all the time from Union Station after connecting from Metrolink. From my experience it is always packed. Don’t think they will take away this route as it connects to all of So Cal.


Perhpas LAXIntl has finite numbers, but in my experiences, crowds on FlyAway are best defined as "hit or miss." A couple weeks ago, I was the sole passenger... although midday in mid-February is one of the few times per year you can navigate the terminal complex via car (should you drive instead) with little traffic.

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