720B
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Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:58 pm

As reported by CTV news, an Air Canada flight declared an emergency after one of its wheels fell off during take off at La Guardia Airport

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-boun ... k92lKBJLWI
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:45 pm

Did they continue to YYZ just because it's such a short flight?

You would think they would want to return in case there was another issue that forced a landing. I am guessing since it's so short they decided YYZ made more sense to their home base?

If this was in Florida it seems irresponsible to fly if there was another emergency on board and you had to land in a small unprepared airport?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:21 pm

What is it with Air Canada and wheels these days? /s
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:33 pm

720B wrote:
As reported by CTV news, an Air Canada flight declared an emergency after one of its wheels fell off during take off at La Guardia Airport

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-boun ... k92lKBJLWI

From that article:
A spokesperson for Air Canada said the Airbus A319 lost one of its six tires

Very clever spokesman: downplaying the incident by counting in the NLG... :scratchchin:
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:12 pm

N14AZ wrote:
A spokesperson for Air Canada said the Airbus A319 lost one of its six tires

Very clever spokesman: downplaying the incident by counting in the NLG... :scratchchin:


Not really...does an A319 not have six tires in totality?
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:23 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
A spokesperson for Air Canada said the Airbus A319 lost one of its six tires

Very clever spokesman: downplaying the incident by counting in the NLG... :scratchchin:


Not really...does an A319 not have six tires in totality?

Yes, but that’s what I meant. The two tires of the NLG are irrelevant when one of the two wheels of the 2-wheel bogie is missing. That’s why I find it kind of funny that he said „one of its six tires“. That’s all and it’s actually not a big story.

Hey, but better than asking „is it a w.....ff?“ :duck: :duck:
 
cedarjet
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:38 pm

Nosegear is really just for steering. I was told by a 747 pilot that the weight on the nosegear of a 747 is only one tonne, that on a contaminated surface it skids out because it’s so light (OK so not even very useful for steering either!). That exact number has been questioned in a conversation since but not by much. So the spokesperson is of course technically right, there are six tires on an A320. But only four are doing the heavy lifting. (Or, in this case, three.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ACDC8
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:47 pm

Again with AC? This can't be normal.
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Antarius
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:56 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Again with AC? This can't be normal.


No kidding. 3rd incident in recent memory?

Picture from twitter (source:https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1229884944010399752/photo/2)
Image
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:09 pm

It’s always hard to tell what the word “lose” means in these cases. Was the tire punctured? Did it fall off into the prison yard on Riker’s Island? Would be good to know.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:16 pm

Antarius wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Again with AC? This can't be normal.


No kidding. 3rd incident in recent memory?

Within 8 weeks. If an airline has the same sort of failure within 8 years, thats one thing. Within 8 months, thats alarming. But within 8 weeks? Thats disturbing.
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Antarius
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:35 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
It’s always hard to tell what the word “lose” means in these cases. Was the tire punctured? Did it fall off into the prison yard on Riker’s Island? Would be good to know.


See the picture above. The whole wheel (hub+tire) is gone.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
9252fly
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:47 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
Again with AC? This can't be normal.


No kidding. 3rd incident in recent memory?

Within 8 weeks. If an airline has the same sort of failure within 8 years, thats one thing. Within 8 months, thats alarming. But within 8 weeks? Thats disturbing.


The previous incident you're likely referring to occurred on a DH3 operated by Jazz, in a sense it's two different operators under the same brand. In the first case it seems to have been caused by a bearing failure.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:06 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
Within 8 weeks. If an airline has the same sort of failure within 8 years, thats one thing. Within 8 months, thats alarming. But within 8 weeks? Thats disturbing.

I’m curious what you feel are the three incidents that are the “same sort of failure”?

This failure is quite different from the delamination of the tire in Madrid. The cause of which is still under investigation. Because the tread was “sliced” before delamination, the investigation has not ruled out a drone or contamination on the runway.

The only other incident I have seen is the Jazz (different company) DHC-8-300 at YUL on January 3, 2020.

Are you aware of any more?

As using CADORS, I haven’t read of a mainline Air Canada aircraft losing a wheel during operation in as far as I searched. The loss of an actual wheel is usually indicative of a maintenance error and is treated very seriously. The last time I have seen anything like this was when two A330s lost a wheel within a month, many years ago. It was traced to an improper wheel cleaning method which affected the wheel bearing grease.
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ACDC8
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:39 pm

longhauler wrote:
I’m curious what you feel are the three incidents that are the “same sort of failure”?

Hmmm, don't know. Wheels coming off seem to be quite a failure would't you think?
longhauler wrote:
This failure is quite different from the delamination of the tire in Madrid. The cause of which is still under investigation. Because the tread was “sliced” before delamination, the investigation has not ruled out a drone or contamination on the runway.

The cause may be different, but the end result is the same.

Now, before some of you get all defensive, no where did I say that there is anything wrong with or at AC, but having 3 similar incidents (regardless of the cause), in such a short period of time certainly does raise one's attention.

As for the comments about Jazz, yes, I'm quite well aware of the structure of AC and their affiliates.
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longhauler
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:42 am

ACDC8 wrote:
The cause may be different, but the end result is the same.

Now, before some of you get all defensive, no where did I say that there is anything wrong with or at AC, but having 3 similar incidents (regardless of the cause), in such a short period of time certainly does raise one's attention.


Likely, because if your going to muse publicly about "linked" occurrences, they should at least be somehow linked. But with one being a different company, and the other two having very different causes, I don't see the "link". Certainly not one worthy of mention.

Other than they affect the landing gear, there is no link. Now, if they were all Jazz or they were all wheel failures or they were all tire failures, I could see cause for concern.

By comparison, try a CADORS search on hydraulic issues. You will see at least 3 in the last two months. Cause for concern? No. Like the landing gear, hydraulics are a complicated system with many many causes for problems ... and none "linked"
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:28 am

Antarius wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
It’s always hard to tell what the word “lose” means in these cases. Was the tire punctured? Did it fall off into the prison yard on Riker’s Island? Would be good to know.


See the picture above. The whole wheel (hub+tire) is gone.


I wonder if they have a spare in the trunk. :roll:
 
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zeke
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:41 am

N14AZ wrote:
Yes, but that’s what I meant. The two tires of the NLG are irrelevant when one of the two wheels of the 2-wheel bogie is missing. That’s why I find it kind of funny that he said „one of its six tires“. That’s all and it’s actually not a big story.:


The reason for two tyres per gear is redundancy as well as to spread the weight.

cedarjet wrote:
Nosegear is really just for steering. I was told by a 747 pilot that the weight on the nosegear of a 747 is only one tonne, that on a contaminated surface it skids out because it’s so light (OK so not even very useful for steering either!). That exact number has been questioned in a conversation since but not by much. So the spokesperson is of course technically right, there are six tires on an A320. But only four are doing the heavy lifting. (Or, in this case, three.)


On all airliners it is more like 5-10% of the weight depending on the CG location, more like 40,000 kg on the nose gear of a 744 when heavy, each tyre is more like 100 kg each.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:49 am

zeke wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Nosegear is really just for steering. I was told by a 747 pilot that the weight on the nosegear of a 747 is only one tonne, that on a contaminated surface it skids out because it’s so light (OK so not even very useful for steering either!). That exact number has been questioned in a conversation since but not by much. So the spokesperson is of course technically right, there are six tires on an A320. But only four are doing the heavy lifting. (Or, in this case, three.)

On all airliners it is more like 5-10% of the weight depending on the CG location, more like 40,000 kg on the nose gear of a 744 when heavy, each tyre is more like 100 kg each.

I presume you are talking "at rest".
Under heavy braking the loading would increase, in the same way that the front end of your car drops when braking. An even better example is watching the front forks on a motorbike during heavy braking.
Conversely, when accelerating on take-off, the loading could be less. (And motorbikes perform wheelies....). Steering at that point really does become marginal.

I haven't quite worked out how reverse thrust affects the "balance" (as opposed to wheel braking alone), but my own view is that the safest landing procedure for the AC flight in question was to use maximum reverse thrust, combined with minimum wheel braking.
However... I also recall that for certain abnormal landing configurations, some Airbus QRH require engine shutdown during the flare. Or maybe I've just dreamt that up. :old:
Somebody will be along shortly to set the record straight I'm sure.

In the meantime here is my favorite photo demonstrating that with aircraft balanced mostly on their MLG, and an empty cockpit, the resultant aft cg can have consequences, particularly if the engines are mounted at the back.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:09 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
However... I also recall that for certain abnormal landing configurations, some Airbus QRH require engine shutdown during the flare. Or maybe I've just dreamt that up. :old:
Somebody will be along shortly to set the record straight I'm sure.


Right you are.

The QRH procedure for Landing With Abnormal L/G for the A319/A320/A321 has the instruction for both engine master switches off at touchdown with one abnormal main gear and both engine master switches off during the flare with both main gear abnormal.

“abnormal” assumes the gear is not confirmed extended and locked. (or questionable).
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TUGMASTER
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:16 am

cedarjet wrote:
Nosegear is really just for steering. I was told by a 747 pilot that the weight on the nosegear of a 747 is only one tonne, that on a contaminated surface it skids out because it’s so light (OK so not even very useful for steering either!). That exact number has been questioned in a conversation since but not by much. So the spokesperson is of course technically right, there are six tires on an A320. But only four are doing the heavy lifting. (Or, in this case, three.)



If I’m pushing a loaded 747, with a TBL tug, the weight in the cradle will be around 16-18 t.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:00 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
In the meantime here is my favorite photo demonstrating that with aircraft balanced mostly on their MLG, and an empty cockpit, the resultant aft cg can have consequences, particularly if the engines are mounted at the back.

... and that’s my favorite photo demonstrating this result: :cloudnine:


Saw this beauty in Damascus in July 2006

cedarjet wrote:
Nosegear is really just for steering. [...] So the spokesperson is of course technically right, there are six tires on an A320. But only four are doing the heavy lifting. (Or, in this case, three.)

Yes, next time he could even add the number of service cart wheels in his statement. :duck:
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Toronto-bound Air Canada flight declares emergency after wheel falls off during take-off

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:44 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
If I’m pushing a loaded 747, with a TBL tug, the weight in the cradle will be around 16-18 t.

That's one helluva of a baby! :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.

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