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MLIAA
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:13 pm

For BOS there looks to be room at the Beverly Airport (BVY) to build a few more runways and a good size terminal, as long as you’re ok with displacing a handful of residents. It’s certainly a lot less dense out that way.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
blockski
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:17 pm

Do we really need any new greenfield airports?

We had a big push in the 50s-70s to build lots of new airports (or dramatically expand existing ones) and they all seem fine.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:39 pm

MLIAA wrote:
For BOS there looks to be room at the Beverly Airport (BVY) to build a few more runways and a good size terminal, as long as you’re ok with displacing a handful of residents. It’s certainly a lot less dense out that way.


No chance.

First off, there's NIMBYs galore out there (I went to high school about 2 miles west of BVY). They won't let it happen.

Second is expansion. Right now BVY has a runway at 5001 feet. I'd say you'd need a good 7000 foot runway minimum nowadays for commercial service. There's no real room to extend there - 128 is to the South (and that's not moving) and you'd be moving some people on the north side (who have a decent bit of money).

Third - connectivity. You'd have to build a dedicated road from 128, which isn't even easy because it would likely be an exit onto Route 97, which doesn't have an exit because there's another intersection right there that does have one. No good public transit (North Beverly station is a mile away, but not a ton of trains; Beverly Depot has a lot more trains but a good 4-5 miles away through dense neighborhoods).
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:46 pm

dopplerd wrote:
Let's not forget about the proposed airport in Peotone, IL. It would no doubt be a failure and waste billions but there are a ton of political contributions associated with make work projects so it might happen. Illinois has already spent a lot of money buying property.


Technicality, but Peotone isn't a true greenfield, there is tiny Bult field there now, and the plan is even to keep that runway. So technically it is just a really major expansion.

You are correct in that the state owns about 90% of the land needed, and there is money in the budget to buy more. I do not think that Peotone is needed, but I can see if MDW has some bad luck and has a couple major incidents, there will be a push to close it down which could lead to Peotone being built. Ultimately, because of the work already done, I think it is the most likely new airport of all the ones being discussed in this thread.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:32 pm

Toinou wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The time, money and nerves spend on new airports in California and the NE is in my opinion a wasted opportunity. A modern HSR from San Francisco down to San Diego would free up a lot of slots for other flights. Same goes for a line from LA to Vegas.

On the east coast you could do something similar although there is already an established rail system, a modern one connecting from Boston down to DC and from NY to Chicago would free up a lot of slots for new connections. A modern HSR could do NY to Chicago in 2.5h, San Francisco to LA is doable in 1.5h.


I'm mostly with you on that topic. But the travel times you mention are not realistic. As many trials showed (especially in France and China), commercial speed over 300 km/h is really costly and not efficient. It may happen with new technologies, that would not be trains. But those are being talked about since such a long time that I will believe in it when I see them working commercially.


I think even if you add 30min on my times it is doable with 250-300km/h. Costly will be the underground part into the city centers. The real benefit will be, that you shave off 30min to 1h of travel time from the center to the airport and another 1h to 90min of security. Over all it will be faster to use the train for distances like this.

The benefit will really come to play if you add another stop at the airport and offer long haul + train service as a combined ticket. The airlines can outsource the inefficient commuter flights to the rail network (which also can offer higher frequencies) while keeping the high yield long haul flights (and even increase them due to more available slots). This would unfortunately need a joint effort of rail firms, airlines and most importantly the government.
 
IADCA
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:33 pm

I don't get the obsession people have with building new major airports, especially in metro areas that are too large or otherwise challenged in terms of geography and population to be served effectively and efficiently by a single airport.

For example, with SFO, you're probably not going to do much better than a site that could host a 10,000 foot runway plus some shorter strips, is connected to SF's mass transportation system or easily could be, and has no major land acquisition or environmental issues (i.e., it's a single large non-residential parcel that would not require significant landfill). Of course, that site already has a name: Oakland International Airport.
 
FGITD
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:34 pm

AirlineBob wrote:
In each of those cases (Boston, San Diego, SFO), isn't there already nearby airports that would be candidates for expansion, rather than a whole new airport?

This article outlines some options for replacing Boston's Logan Airport....

https://medium.com/@ethanfinlan/finding ... 8cb12d6477


well written and interesting read, but the author seems a bit out of touch with how airlines and airports operate. The entire basis of the articles is to close Logan, and split the operation into 2 airports, in 2 different states. Among the host of other problems, you have the simple fact that Massport would never let it leave MA.

Great idea, we'll send JetBlue to New Hampshire and Delta to Rhode Island, then split the rest evenly. they'll all be at least an hour away from Boston, and increased connectivity would cost billions...

BOS getting crowded will help MHT, and PVD without a doubt. But they can never replace it.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:05 pm

America will not see "major" greenfield airports until sea levels rise and cause migration away from the inundated coastlines. This is ~40 years away.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:05 pm

N776AU wrote:
The problem with 1 and 3 is that you have environmentalist wackos in charge. Not gonna happen in a million years.


SAN is a military town. NIMBY also means "Not in Marines Back Yard". Once fighter touch-and-goes are the thing of the past in the middle of an urban area, then Miramar will become available. There is enough room for dual parallel runways south of the military complex for both to exist. Currently, the touch-and-goes go right overhead where the proposed civilian runways would be.
Cornucopia
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:13 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Toinou wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The time, money and nerves spend on new airports in California and the NE is in my opinion a wasted opportunity. A modern HSR from San Francisco down to San Diego would free up a lot of slots for other flights. Same goes for a line from LA to Vegas.

On the east coast you could do something similar although there is already an established rail system, a modern one connecting from Boston down to DC and from NY to Chicago would free up a lot of slots for new connections. A modern HSR could do NY to Chicago in 2.5h, San Francisco to LA is doable in 1.5h.


I'm mostly with you on that topic. But the travel times you mention are not realistic. As many trials showed (especially in France and China), commercial speed over 300 km/h is really costly and not efficient. It may happen with new technologies, that would not be trains. But those are being talked about since such a long time that I will believe in it when I see them working commercially.


I think even if you add 30min on my times it is doable with 250-300km/h. Costly will be the underground part into the city centers. The real benefit will be, that you shave off 30min to 1h of travel time from the center to the airport and another 1h to 90min of security. Over all it will be faster to use the train for distances like this.

The benefit will really come to play if you add another stop at the airport and offer long haul + train service as a combined ticket. The airlines can outsource the inefficient commuter flights to the rail network (which also can offer higher frequencies) while keeping the high yield long haul flights (and even increase them due to more available slots). This would unfortunately need a joint effort of rail firms, airlines and most importantly the government.
HSR is not possible in America. The freight guys will not give up their tracks and rural landowners will not give up their land for something they see as a benefit to "city folk". Emmeint domain and HSR might work in a few locations, but it will never be nationwide like China (government does what it wants) or France (Infrastructure has been there for 60 years).

Lots of small airports with some kind of sustainably fueled (and automated ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) planes is the answer for America.
 
freakyrat
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:29 pm

KFTG wrote:
The last "green field" airport built in the US was Panama City, FL-ECP; it opened in 2010.


You fgorgot the new airport at Williston, North Dakota (XWA) which opened in October of last year.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:34 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Another problem is that why would the residents of SFO/BOS/SAN choose to support a new airport project? I wouldn't want to give up my nice, easy commute from Downtown BOS on the T to the Airport to some airport in the middle of nowhere that is only accessible by gridlocked roads.


Yes, because (!) the Red Line to the (2) Silver Line or to the (2) Green/Orange Line to the (3) Blue Line to the (4) Logan shuttle to your terminal is such a pleasant experience.
 
aklrno
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:45 pm

KFTG wrote:
There's still hope for Miramar I think. To relocate all of the units, there seems to be plenty of hangar/ramp space available at North Island and Imperial Beach. Lemoore is also designed such that expansion is relatively easy and painless, funding of course being available. There is a ton of space allocated for future use north of the current hangars. SAN itself could be turned over to the USMC once all the dust settles.

Last I checked Lemoore was near Fresno. Has it moved? Is Fresno now considered to be near San Diego?
 
YYZORD
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:47 pm

planecane wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
For SEA, I'd say if they can build the bullet train to YVR from SEA, move all asian and european international flights from SEA to YVR and leave SEA for only domestic/canada flights.


Except for the minor detail of YVR being located in another country that would be a great idea. US based carriers wouldn't be able to operate YVR to those international destinations directly.


I mean Non US carriers.
 
airbazar
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:47 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
HSR is not possible in America. The freight guys will not give up their tracks and rural landowners will not give up their land for something they see as a benefit to "city folk". Emmeint domain and HSR might work in a few locations, but it will never be nationwide like China (government does what it wants) or France (Infrastructure has been there for 60 years).


France. Germany, etc has been there for a while but it didn't just appear overnight. The same process will have to happen over here, it will have to start somewhere.
Those rural landowners can only hold on to their land for as long as those city folks are willing to subsidize their farms. At the rate this country is losing farms sooner or later they will be selling their land. It's only a matter of who buys the property.
https://time.com/5736789/small-american ... xtinction/
 
ASA
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:54 pm

tlecam wrote:
N776AU wrote:
The problem with 1 and 3 is that you have environmentalist wackos in charge. Not gonna happen in a million years.


We have environmental and nimby whackos in Boston


Even those that put a hotel in the middle of a runway ... :? :mrgreen:
 
KFTG
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:00 pm

aklrno wrote:
KFTG wrote:
There's still hope for Miramar I think. To relocate all of the units, there seems to be plenty of hangar/ramp space available at North Island and Imperial Beach. Lemoore is also designed such that expansion is relatively easy and painless, funding of course being available. There is a ton of space allocated for future use north of the current hangars. SAN itself could be turned over to the USMC once all the dust settles.

Last I checked Lemoore was near Fresno. Has it moved? Is Fresno now considered to be near San Diego?

I’m referring to the relocation of USMC assets to other bases.
 
Murdoughnut
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:03 pm

Here's an idea sure to be unpopular here (and for my career)... aviation is an inherently dated concept ripe for technological replacement.

Hyperloop, or some iteration, stands to make much of commercial air travel obsolete. Short haul flights between major markets will disappear. What remains of aviation will serve to connect international markets, or medium and long-haul domestic markets.
 
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DaProf
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:05 pm

Noise wrote:
What about Miami Airport? That place is to be constrained on all four sides.


I believe they already tried that many years ago … check out the history of Dade-Collier
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:07 pm

airbazar wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
HSR is not possible in America. The freight guys will not give up their tracks and rural landowners will not give up their land for something they see as a benefit to "city folk". Emmeint domain and HSR might work in a few locations, but it will never be nationwide like China (government does what it wants) or France (Infrastructure has been there for 60 years).


France. Germany, etc has been there for a while but it didn't just appear overnight. The same process will have to happen over here, it will have to start somewhere.
Those rural landowners can only hold on to their land for as long as those city folks are willing to subsidize their farms. At the rate this country is losing farms sooner or later they will be selling their land. It's only a matter of who buys the property.
https://time.com/5736789/small-american ... xtinction/
Agribusiness are buying those small farms. Those guys are even less likely to have HSR splitting their property. This is why HSR has not happen in Texas and will likely never happen even though it needs no public money to work.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:17 pm

SFO/SJC/OAK as a group are not going to reach a meaningful limit in our lifetimes, so no, there won't be any new airport built to replace SFO. If we somehow reach that limit, we probably have bigger problems and shouldn't be building any new airports for carbon-spewing planes anyways.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:31 pm

WWads wrote:
Ask some people in Ohio. They SWEAR that a new multi-billion dollar airport near Middletown to replace CVG will happen any day now. :roll:


Why does CVG need to be replaced? It's no longer a Delta hub. There is plenty of spare capacity.
 
Kno
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:32 pm

BOS and SAN are located phenomenally, two of the only airports in the states where curb to most key neighborhoods in the city are literally within a 5-10 minute drive. I’d rather see airlines fly larger equipment to handle an increase in pax than to relocate anything.
 
drdisque
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:43 pm

San Diego has Brown Field Municipal Airport. It is part of a former Naval Air Station and already has a sufficient runway for most domestic aircraft. It would just need a terminal and ramp built. It is already adjacent to an expressway and all of the development immediately around it is either former military buildings or industrial so could be used by the airport. The reason it hasn't is that SAN isn't at capacity.

In San Francisco OAK is still below capacity. There is plenty of space where a new terminal or concourse could be built.

In Boston, there is plenty of room for a proper terminal to be built at BED, and of course there's ORH, MHT, and PVD operating well below capacity.
 
Vegaschezhed
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:50 pm

I think the most realistic option would be Ivanpah as a 2nd to LAS. The BLM, FAA and Clark County re-opened feasibility studies in 2018.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:59 pm

Noise wrote:
As the title of this thread suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on whether we will ever see a new greenfield major airport in the United States? I can think of a few cities that might need full-scale replacement airports in the long-term future if growth continues. Those would be:

1) San Diego: airport is boxed in by water and neighborhoods on all sides. Very little opportunities for terminal and runway expansion.
2) Boston Logan: same as San Diego. In addition, it's a fast-growing airport with B6, DL and even now AA growing their presence there.
3) San Francisco: nearly impossible to expand the airport into the bay if need be. Perhaps a replacement airport is possible in the not-to-distant future? That airport appears to be bursting at the seems.

ove ughts?

they would have to move the San Diego airport east into or near the Imperial Valley Probably somewhere near NAS Imperial is. off of I-8,
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:02 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Noise wrote:
As the title of this thread suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on whether we will ever see a new greenfield major airport in the United States? I can think of a few cities that might need full-scale replacement airports in the long-term future if growth continues. Those would be:

1) San Diego: airport is boxed in by water and neighborhoods on all sides. Very little opportunities for terminal and runway expansion.
2) Boston Logan: same as San Diego. In addition, it's a fast-growing airport with B6, DL and even now AA growing their presence there.
3) San Francisco: nearly impossible to expand the airport into the bay if need be. Perhaps a replacement airport is possible in the not-to-distant future? That airport appears to be bursting at the seems.

ove ughts?

they would have to move the San Diego airport east into or near the Imperial Valley Probably somewhere near NAS Imperial is. off of I-8,

Boston Logan? that would be a tough one as there is not a lot of free space in the Boston area. It would have to be built outside of Foxborough or even New Hamshire to get room. Maybe?
co-Join with Pease AFB?
 
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enilria
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm

A new GNV is being talked about. The new airport would be closer to Orlando and *could* get more service as a result.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:34 pm

Noise wrote:
As the title of this thread suggests, what is everyone's thoughts on whether we will ever see a new greenfield major airport in the United States? I can think of a few cities that might need full-scale replacement airports in the long-term future if growth continues. Those would be:

1) San Diego: airport is boxed in by water and neighborhoods on all sides. Very little opportunities for terminal and runway expansion.
2) Boston Logan: same as San Diego. In addition, it's a fast-growing airport with B6, DL and even now AA growing their presence there.
3) San Francisco: nearly impossible to expand the airport into the bay if need be. Perhaps a replacement airport is possible in the not-to-distant future? That airport appears to be bursting at the seems.

Thoughts?

SFO will only be re-located or re-built if an earthquake makes the present airport untenable. Any expansion would have to be done be linking SFO, OAK and SJC under a single authority Like the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey which holds sway over JFK ,LGA ,and EWR. Suffice to say? That would be a HUGE compromise and take in 5 counties, Alameda, San Francisco, san Mateo, Santa Clara and Possibly Contra Costa. and? No telling who will want in of the surrounding counties all the way up to Sacramento as the 3 airports could well be directly connected by Direct road and Rail. Like the I-380 that ended at SFO across the Bay to OAK and I-280 or US 101 that extends to SJC. All 3 Airports could be linked by rail with a BART type of operation. Yes it would take $ Billions but the Bay area would be cool for at least 50 years without any major developments and might eventually include the Alameda and Moffett Naval air Station locations should the need for capacity arise. Yes it is far fetched but the alternative is to source a new location for sfo and that might well be in Solano County adjacent to Travis AFB. as there is open farmland there off of Hwy 12 east of I-80 and directly between that and I-5. The only question would be? Where would they graze the Black Angus cattle that already graze there? And? How many homes could they build to accommodate those who would work there? Because it's no secret that Bay Area housing is expensive and that area has the most affordable in the Area for 100 miles around the north bay.
 
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spinotter
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:43 pm

ro1960 wrote:
Solution : slow down world population growth and need for more travel and current facilities will meet the demand without expanding or building new airfields.


Better solution: reconstruct the world economy so that 99.99% of all human travel is by foot, bicycle, or public transit. Everyone wins.
 
toltommy
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:44 pm

teachpdx wrote:
SEA probably has the best chance, whether in the farmlands to the southeast or somewhere across the Sound.
It’s still a very, very small chance.
The proposed ultra high speed rail between Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver could completely erase the need for it.


Help me understand how high speed rail between those 3 cities would "completely" erase the need for expansion or a new airport for Seattle. Are you saying the HSR would eliminate the need to fly between the 3 cities? That's not that much traffic daily, as a percentage of all traffic at SEA. Or are you saying Seattleites would take a 2-3 train journey to YVR or PDX and that would completely eliminate the need for a bigger SEA. I don't see either scenario as realistic.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333 / 707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:59 pm

As the US population explodes in the next 25 years (and it will explode... we will be a nation just shy of 400,000,000 people), the individual needs of folks will by necessity become less important than the overall common good. Especially when you consider the bulk of that growth will occur in large municipalities (true cities like LA, NYC, Chicago are shrinking, but that won't continue as populations increase and folks need somewhere to live). Everyone will just have to get used to the ideas of longer transit times in large population centers. Ideas like tight coordination between JFK/LGA/EWR , SFO/OAK/SJC, BWI/DCA/IAD, MDW/GYY/ORD, LAX/ONT/SNA/LGB/BUR with rail or specialized highways for high speed connectivity between them might be the solution. Locating green field airports in the boonies is not the answer. Land acquisition is far too expensive in every metro area that has present airport constraints. Distributing the load amongst airports is the only way. Sorry SpinOtter.. it's just the way it's going to be in our brave new world.

I
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
jplatts
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:14 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
WWads wrote:
Ask some people in Ohio. They SWEAR that a new multi-billion dollar airport near Middletown to replace CVG will happen any day now. :roll:


Why does CVG need to be replaced? It's no longer a Delta hub. There is plenty of spare capacity.


I agree that there is no need to replace CVG as there is plenty of room to either extend Concourses A and B westward or to build new concourses to the west of Concourses A and B at CVG.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:17 pm

spinotter wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Solution : slow down world population growth and need for more travel and current facilities will meet the demand without expanding or building new airfields.


Better solution: reconstruct the world economy so that 99.99% of all human travel is by foot, bicycle, or public transit. Everyone wins.


I echo those sentiments 100%. We will attain that reality eventually, but it will be a sad, horrific, and bloody means to get there. It will not be neatly planned. It will be an implosion, a collapse. Earth can't support a population of 9.5 billion with every single one of them trying to "get what's theirs". I imagine I will be around to see the start of it perhaps (I'll be a very old man and will be sad to witness).

Yeah, no new greenfield airports in the US.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
airbazar
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:38 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
As the US population explodes in the next 25 years

Humm, the native born population isn't growing. All the growth has come from immigration which currently is not being very welcomed, and I don't see the current trend changing soon. in other words: our population growth has stagnated.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u- ... w-n1108816
 
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WALmsp
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:52 pm

When it comes to HSR, particularly here in California, NIMBYism and government ineptitude/bureaucracy are major problem. The cost have skyrocketed exponentially here to the point that even the person you develop the initial plan that was placed on the California ballot has disavowed the entire concept. California's HSR has been changed and rerouted so many times already that is no longer high-speed! Plus, they started building in the Central Valley farmlands, because that's where they could afford to buy land from willing sellers but they can't be read how to get it to the cities because of the cost of going through the mountains and the fact that nobody wants to train near them. The only way a valid HSR is going to work in California is to get rid of both NIMBYs and the government ineptitude. Good luck!
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
 
teachpdx
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 pm

toltommy wrote:
Help me understand how high speed rail between those 3 cities would "completely" erase the need for expansion or a new airport for Seattle.


1) SEA very well need some kind of capacity increase, no matter what happens with HSR.

2) The latest HSR proposals under study give travel times between YVR, SEA, and PDX at just over an hour each. If it only takes an hour to travel from SEA to either PDX or YVR, I could easily see PDX traffic increasing dramatically, and even YVR as well. Especially if airlines can implement some kind of combined rail/fly ticket.
Up Next: THIS YEAR IS CANCELLED!!!
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:16 pm

Yes, out of necessity.

Airports like JFK and LGA have the potential to be under feet of water

Real problem heading our way this century
 
vedatil4
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:24 pm

The answer for the San Diego area is never, ever, ever. Even if converting Miramar to an airport was a possibility, which it's not by a longshot, the environmentalists and rich&savvy nimby crowd will make the environmental review process hell-on-this-earth. They'll bring up all kinds of critters and noise issues as well placed monkeywrenches to stop the project. It'll take decades and local politicians leading the charge (ain't happenin')

The best hope is to relieve some of the pressure at SAN by moving some flights moved away to TIJ and CLD airports or better rail links. There's an international terminal being built at TIJ really meant for the southern California crowd coming across the CBX bridge. It appears like that developer in Mexico doesn't have to deal with any environmental red tape at all from the articles I've read.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:45 pm

planecane wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
For SEA, I'd say if they can build the bullet train to YVR from SEA, move all asian and european international flights from SEA to YVR and leave SEA for only domestic/canada flights.


Except for the minor detail of YVR being located in another country that would be a great idea. US based carriers wouldn't be able to operate YVR to those international destinations directly.


Even without the customs and immigration issues, a HSR going 300kmh would be at least an hour trip SEA to YVR plus likely quite costly still far too complex for someone simply wanting to catch a flight from either SEA or YVR. On top of that, none of the proposals put forward link the airport directly.
 
jimatkins
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:17 pm

I seem to remember a feasibility study for KSAN that ended up with building a new airport way out east near Alpine with a train to bring passengers in. Hugely expensive and unpopular.
 
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ER757
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:26 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Seattle Vashon Airport

This again????? Didn't you get thoroughly schooled on the umpteen reasons this is an utter joke of an idea when you started a thread on it? Give it a rest already and get back in touch with reality
 
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Coronado990
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:30 pm

jimatkins wrote:
I seem to remember a feasibility study for KSAN that ended up with building a new airport way out east near Alpine with a train to bring passengers in. Hugely expensive and unpopular.


It was out in Boulevard near Campo.
Cornucopia
 
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ro1960
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:40 pm

BartSimpson wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Solution : slow down world population growth and need for more travel and current facilities will meet the demand without expanding or building new airfields.


The topic is about greenfield airports in the US. Since the US aviation industry is more domestically oriented than most other local aviation industries, your "solution" doesn't help at all. The problem of overcrowded US airports is mostly because of domestic traffic, not international traffic.


Then just replace the word “world” in my statement with the word “USA” and it’ll work too.
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ro1960
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:42 pm

spinotter wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Solution : slow down world population growth and need for more travel and current facilities will meet the demand without expanding or building new airfields.


Better solution: reconstruct the world economy so that 99.99% of all human travel is by foot, bicycle, or public transit. Everyone wins.


I disagree. The problem is not the means of transportation. It’s the number of people using them.
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SurlyBonds
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:44 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The time, money and nerves spend on new airports in California and the NE is in my opinion a wasted opportunity. A modern HSR from San Francisco down to San Diego would free up a lot of slots for other flights. Same goes for a line from LA to Vegas.

On the east coast you could do something similar although there is already an established rail system, a modern one connecting from Boston down to DC and from NY to Chicago would free up a lot of slots for new connections. A modern HSR could do NY to Chicago in 2.5h, San Francisco to LA is doable in 1.5h.


At this point, better to wait for hyperloop technology to come online, which potentially makes bullet trains obsolete, and let California be the world leader.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
As the US population explodes in the next 25 years

Humm, the native born population isn't growing. All the growth has come from immigration which currently is not being very welcomed, and I don't see the current trend changing soon. in other words: our population growth has stagnated.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u- ... w-n1108816


A countrie’s population includes nonnatives. Migrants travel too, you know. Whether they’re welcome or not. So their number contribute to the overcrowding just like the locals. But people also travel more because fares are cheaper.
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vedatil4
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:51 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
jimatkins wrote:
I seem to remember a feasibility study for KSAN that ended up with building a new airport way out east near Alpine with a train to bring passengers in. Hugely expensive and unpopular.


It was out in Boulevard near Campo.


I remember reading a New San Diego Airport feasibility study around the time of the vote for/against Miramar as a possible location (2006?). That study was thorough as humanly possible. No crazy site option was left unexplored. The sites I can also remember were destroying most of National City to put the airport there and one where the airport was out in the ocean in front of the Pacific Beach area. All possible sites were horrific options while Miramar or the east part of Miramar were the only sensible choices. Unfortunately a large majority voted against exploring Miramar. But I don't believe that vote makes the place a sacred cow we'll never have for dinner.

I can't find the full report I remember online anywhere. But the Campo site is shown on this presentation: http://sdapa.org/download/RyanHall.pdf. I remember the graphics of all the crazy, "no way in heck", sites looking like the diagram for Campo.
Last edited by vedatil4 on Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:53 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
The only question would be? Where would they graze the Black Angus cattle that already graze there? And? How many homes could they build to accommodate those who would work there? Because it's no secret that Bay Area housing is expensive and that area has the most affordable in the Area for 100 miles around the north bay.


You're seriously proposing the new airport for SFO be out around Harris Ranch? It would make comparisons like NRT/HND and IAD/DCA look like child's play.

To the extent that SFO is overcrowded, there's an easier, much less expensive, and politically feasible solution: airlines rediscover the virtues of wide-bodied domestic service. We halve the number of flights within California and to the East Coast. Pax will accept one flight every two hours, as opposed to hourly, if the alternative is driving from Market Street out to Harris Ranch or somewhere.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Will there ever been a new greenfield major airport in the USA?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:10 am

airbazar wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
As the US population explodes in the next 25 years

Humm, the native born population isn't growing. All the growth has come from immigration which currently is not being very welcomed, and I don't see the current trend changing soon. in other words: our population growth has stagnated.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u- ... w-n1108816


Whatever dude. There will be nearly 390+mil people by 2045... whether they are born here or migrate... it's still extra biomass.
learning never stops...

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