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FlyRow
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KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:05 am

Pieter Elbers has confirmed that KLM will get a real premium economy, not like the extra legroom economy comfort they have now.

Details are not known yet, it has just been announced at the annual airfrance-klm financial presentation.

Source is https://twitter.com/luchtvaart/status/1230431124704440320?s=19
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Flanker7
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:12 am

Great development and long overdue. Looking forward to the actual concept.
Flying blue only if possible
 
76er
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:23 am

I wonder if this will be on top of Economy Comfort or as a replacement.

Nevertheless, great news.
 
cityshuttle
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:26 am

Let’s just hope that they are not using those horrible PE seats from AF ... can’t really sleep in those seats.
 
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bgm
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:33 am

Don't all the major European/US airlines already have that? If so, KLM is a bit late to the party (again).
 
florens
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:52 am

bgm wrote:
Don't all the major European/US airlines already have that? If so, KLM is a bit late to the party (again).


LX has no PE.

AY will get PE next year.
Kind regards, Florens
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:57 am

A seat less per row on the 777 and 787 seems a requirement.

Recline / knees are better, but way too narrow / shoulder rubbing / aisle bumping for any kind of "premium" qualification.

There must be pressure from FF's corporate accounts indications this isn't acceptable / competitive.

By given up a seat per row you "throw away" 5-6 revenue seats per aircraft.

The $$ loss/yr ends up in the business case, together with the C-class passengers downgrading to an acepatble M+ seat.

I avoided KLM since pitch optimizations / 10 abreast 777s and crampy 787s.

And I'm even not entirely innocent.
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Someone83
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:20 am

florens wrote:

LX has no PE.


They will get one on their 777-300ERs from next Winter

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... m-economy/
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:28 am

I’m happy to see this become a trend and I can’t wait for airlines like Delta to roll them out across their entire fleet.

However, hopefully KLM doesn’t use AF(and aeroflot’s which are putting new ones in their A350) seats which are incredibly uncomfortable and have some of the flimsiest tables.
 
BravoEcho757
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:42 am

Good to hear since I have had nothing but great service on KLM. Now if Aer Lingus would offer this (I frequent Ireland) I'd be tickled pink.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:51 am

keesje wrote:
A seat less per row on the 777 and 787 seems a requirement.

Recline / knees are better, but way too narrow / shoulder rubbing / aisle bumping for any kind of "premium" qualification.

There must be pressure from FF's corporate accounts indications this isn't acceptable / competitive.

By given up a seat per row you "throw away" 5-6 revenue seats per aircraft.

The $$ loss/yr ends up in the business case, together with the C-class passengers downgrading to an acepatble M+ seat.

I avoided KLM since pitch optimizations / 10 abreast 777s and crampy 787s.

And I'm even not entirely innocent.


It took the Americans years to accept that Premium Economy was here to stay. AF W isn’t that bad and comes with a sizeable tray table you can work on. I think if you want a business class experience, you have to pay for it. I have yet to see a premium economy worth anywhere near the $1,000+ premium one would personally pay. If it’s just for Europe, I would put the money into staying at a nicer hotel at destination instead of trying to feel better flying in a metal tube for 10 hours. It’s just really hard to justify the little incremental value of a few extra inches of space.
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:57 am

florens wrote:
AY will get PE next year.

First A330 with Premium Economy will be ready in November this year.
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:06 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
However, hopefully KLM doesn’t use AF(and aeroflot’s which are putting new ones in their A350) seats which are incredibly uncomfortable and have some of the flimsiest tables.


I saw the bad reviews on the AF (and Alitalia) PE seats, therefore decided to lift my ban on IB and go for their PE. I must say I was pleasantly surprised, slept for 6 hours on the night flight back. Good value for money. Must say the A346 PE cabin was a lot nicer than their A359's, which I had on my previous flight.

So I hope KL will use the same PE seats as IB!
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Polot
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:11 pm

Unfortunately considering that KLM and AF are starting to share many of the same seats (ie AF and KL 787 J and Y seats are the same, just with different color upholstery/detailing) I would expect the KL PE seat to be the same as AF’s, unless they also decide to upgrade AF’s as well.
 
jetwet1
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:25 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
I have yet to see a premium economy worth anywhere near the $1,000+ premium one would personally pay.


DY, though the food can range from great to amazingly bad, the seat itself is a winner.

BA/VS do a decent job as well.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:49 pm

keesje wrote:
The $$ loss/yr ends up in the business case, together with the C-class passengers downgrading to an acepatble M+ seat.


That is a threat: people downgrading from J as well as upgrading from Y. Not every market shows the willingness to pay (for J, or for premium economy). An 'every aircraft/every carrier' goal isn't realistic.
 
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cathay747
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Great development and long overdue. Looking forward to the actual concept.


For sure...I'd add "it's about time" on top of "long overdue"!
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DL747400
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:03 pm

KLM adding a proper PE is a logical evolution and will make it easier to sell the DL/KL/AF/VS transatlantic JV with a fully aligned product portfolio across the group.

Insertnamehere wrote:
I’m happy to see this become a trend and I can’t wait for airlines like Delta to roll them out across their entire fleet.


DELTA is already in the process of progressively deploying PE throughout their entire INTL long haul fleet, but don't expect them to do so on the DOM fleet. There is no need for PE in DOM markets with Comfort+ already in place and selling very well. I do not recall that DELTA has ever indicated that they were (are) even considering the addition of PE to the DOM fleet, or replacing DOM Comfort+ with PE.

An exception would be if DELTA someday created a small A321 subfleet dedicated to transcons similar to AA, but not holding my breath on that.
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dstblj52
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:20 pm

DL747400 wrote:
KLM adding a proper PE is a logical evolution and will make it easier to sell the DL/KL/AF/VS transatlantic JV with a fully aligned product portfolio across the group.

Insertnamehere wrote:
I’m happy to see this become a trend and I can’t wait for airlines like Delta to roll them out across their entire fleet.


DELTA is already in the process of progressively deploying PE throughout their entire INTL long haul fleet, but don't expect them to do so on the DOM fleet. There is no need for PE in DOM markets with Comfort+ already in place and selling very well. I do not recall that DELTA has ever indicated that they were (are) even considering the addition of PE to the DOM fleet, or replacing DOM Comfort+ with PE.

An exception would be if DELTA someday created a small A321 subfleet dedicated to transcons similar to AA, but not holding my breath on that.

Domestic first is essentially premium economy anyway
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:39 pm

KLM should keep Y+ while adding W. This could also result in more revenue as well with fewer seats. That Y aisle is super cramped since KLM chose 17.5” width while still going 10 abreast.
 
EddieDude
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:16 pm

cityshuttle wrote:
Let’s just hope that they are not using those horrible PE seats from AF ... can’t really sleep in those seats.

Yes, I have tried the AF A380 W seats and they are not good for night flights (for daytime flights they are pretty decent). My undestanding is that this specific model of seat is only on the A380s and 777s. With the 789s, I believe AF introduced a different W seat that addresses the shortcomings of the earlier ones. Can someone confirm?
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FlyRow
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:49 pm

Now in a (Dutch) article! Not earlier then 2021, it takes at least a year to make plans and the corona-virus backlash is taking priority now.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-kiest-definitief-voor-premium-economy
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AMS18C36C
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:59 pm

Long overdue. I was in a KLM 777 last year, and the 10-abreast was slightly too tight.
 
DLBlueDevil
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:37 pm

This is great news. I live in Atlanta and have to go to AMS a couple of times a year. My company will pay for PE, but not for Biz. Unfortunately, the non-stops ATL-AMS only have Comfort + (DL and KLM). Over the past 6 months, I've routed myself through LHR to try Virgin, DTW to try Delta Premium Select and CDG to try Air France PE. I've always thought the most important thing to me was space and that the AF seat would be fine. I was wrong. The seat was very hard and uncomfortable (even sitting on a blanket). My back was quite sore halfway through the flight. Delta PS was very nice, but to me, Virgin's PE was definitely the best. While the in-flight entertainment system was dated and not terribly responsive, the seat was wider, cushier and had more legroom than DL or AF. Definitely my preferred PE to cross the Atlantic. If KLM is anywhere near DL or Virgin, it will be very welcome.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:45 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
KLM should keep Y+ while adding W. This could also result in more revenue as well with fewer seats. That Y aisle is super cramped since KLM chose 17.5” width while still going 10 abreast.


They will: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-economy-comfort-blijft-in-stand-na-introductie-premium-economy?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (in Dutch).

Some talk about direct-aisle business class in the 777, but elbers says "not now".
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM to get proper premium economy.

Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:45 am

FlyRow wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
KLM should keep Y+ while adding W. This could also result in more revenue as well with fewer seats. That Y aisle is super cramped since KLM chose 17.5” width while still going 10 abreast.


They will: https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/klm-economy-comfort-blijft-in-stand-na-introductie-premium-economy?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (in Dutch).

Some talk about direct-aisle business class in the 777, but elbers says "not now".


Article also quoting Elbers that Business class cabin will not become smaller with the introduction of PE. So there will be less Y and Y+ seats. Must say I found the number of Y+ seats on KL's 787-9 quite large (48), more than on their 787-10s and 777s.

Elbers also said the type of PE seat still had to be decided, so there's hope KL will use a different one from AF. As one of the main reasons for KLM's choice for PE is a consistent product on their Transatlantic JV, so I'm hoping KL (and AF) will go for DL's PE choice. Maybe Ben Smith can influence, AC's PE seat looks quite good too.

Although I may drift a bit off topic now, I hope KL will now choose for the 777-9 as replacement for their 77E's. With the number of seats reducing as a result of introducing PE, the 77W could take over the 77E role in KL's fleet, and the 777-9 the current 77W role. Just love those folding wingtips, would be great to see them at AMS :cloudnine: I know, it's a bit silly :blush:
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