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leghorn
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3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:04 pm

Hi,
What happened with this?
https://leehamnews.com/2019/01/21/ponti ... rica-tour/
Something else, which wasn’t included: by shifting the aft lavs around, Airbus can put 2-3 more seats in the airplane, depending on the configuration change. This doesn’t sound like much, but depending on the average fare, load factor and flight segments per day, each seat generates hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue per year. This is without reducing the seat pitch.
 
Varsity1
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:06 pm

Max landing weight is still too low.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
leghorn
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:13 pm

Does that matter for intra-europe flights where they wouldn't be filling up the tanks anyhow.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:31 pm

Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
leghorn
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:37 pm

air canada appear to have different Loos to Air Baltic.
 
T4thH
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:43 pm

This was not on the list of the Bombardier team PIPs for the A220, the engineers were already working on. If the story was real (and not the just the wet dream/anticipation of someone else, "if an A321 get the air flex cabin than the A220 must have to get it too"), than this shall have been a request by Airbus according to the story, so Airbus shall have asked for it, If it will come, it will have several disadvantages. There is only space for two seats and (not three), and these seats will not have a window. These seats will be in the area in the back, where the fuselage is getting already smaller and there will be only a limited space for overhead bins. And they will have a direct view on the lavatory door...passengers will really like to get these two seats :cry2:
Last edited by T4thH on Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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nighthawk
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:44 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.


I think Boeing / American Airlines are the market leader in that department...
 
leghorn
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:47 pm

does the A220 have a 19" wide seat so if it shrinks down to a 17" seat which the 737 "enjoys" then whats the problem?
who can they have a direct view on the lavatory. Will they not be in front of it or do you mean across from it?
 
superjeff
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:12 pm

nighthawk wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.


I think Boeing / American Airlines are the market leader in that department...



American's Oasis is really no different than United's spacing or Delta's these days. Crappy, "High Density" seating with little padding is the norm now.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:42 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

What about Boeing? Recently I had the 'pleasure' of travelling in one of the latest 737-800's of KLM. While the overhead bins of the Boeing Sky Interior were very large, the restroom was very small. The sink was actually so tiny, that you could only wash one hand at a time. Really sad. When possible, I will avoid this aircraft.
 
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Polot
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:48 pm

Both Boeing and Airbus’s new lavs suck. Airbus’s spaceflex v2 lavs on the A320s are no better than the lavs AA stuck in their Maxes.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:50 pm

leghorn wrote:
Hi, What happened with this?

(...) This doesn’t sound like much, but depending on the average fare, load factor and flight segments per day, each seat generates hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue per year.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars sounds a bit much. Does every seat generates 1,000 USD each day? How many daily segments are we talking about? Five maybe? When the seat is booked each flight, is the average fare really 200 USD per leg? Usually I don't pay more than 200 USD for return trips within Europe, with a change of planes included, bringing the average fare down to less than 50 USD per leg.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:52 pm

superjeff wrote:
nighthawk wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.


I think Boeing / American Airlines are the market leader in that department...



American's Oasis is really no different than United's spacing or Delta's these days. Crappy, "High Density" seating with little padding is the norm now.


It surely is different on a 738: 172 seats for AA vs. 160 for DL and 166 for UA. Rhetorical efforts to try minimize the effects of two extra rows will fail.
 
asdf
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:11 pm

T4thH wrote:
And they will have a direct view on the lavatory door...passengers will really like to get these two seats :cry2:


well, better 19“ with a bad view than 17“ near a window, isnt it?
 
asdf
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:12 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Hi, What happened with this?

(...) This doesn’t sound like much, but depending on the average fare, load factor and flight segments per day, each seat generates hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue per year.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars sounds a bit much. Does every seat generates 1,000 USD each day? How many daily segments are we talking about? Five maybe? When the seat is booked each flight, is the average fare really 200 USD per leg? Usually I don't pay more than 200 USD for return trips within Europe, with a change of planes included, bringing the average fare down to less than 50 USD per leg.


so its a million per year per seat
lotta money ....
 
leghorn
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:44 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Hi, What happened with this?

(...) This doesn’t sound like much, but depending on the average fare, load factor and flight segments per day, each seat generates hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue per year.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars sounds a bit much. Does every seat generates 1,000 USD each day? How many daily segments are we talking about? Five maybe? When the seat is booked each flight, is the average fare really 200 USD per leg? Usually I don't pay more than 200 USD for return trips within Europe, with a change of planes included, bringing the average fare down to less than 50 USD per leg.

8 segments for a Lcc or a legacy airline fending off an Lcc. You won't get caught out for overbooking with 3 extra seats.
 
T4thH
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:13 pm

leghorn wrote:
does the A220 have a 19" wide seat so if it shrinks down to a 17" seat which the 737 "enjoys" then whats the problem?
who can they have a direct view on the lavatory. Will they not be in front of it or do you mean across from it?

Please note, the whole story was one year ago, so these are the data as best I can remember. Regarding width, there is just not enough space around the shoulder area for three seats so far in the back. And yes, an additional row across was discussed.
Please remind, there is neither an official or "half official leaked" information available regarding these two (or three) additional seats/the additional row. Others statements regarding PIPs of this Airbus north America tour have been confirmed or additional information have been given, but for this story, I have not seen anything.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:34 pm

asdf wrote:
so its a million per year per seat
lotta money ....

The article in the first post states it's hundreds of thousands for each seat, not a million. But is the article correct? Hundreds of thousands already is a lot of money, maybe too much money.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:39 pm

T4thH wrote:
This was not on the list of the Bombardier team PIPs for the A220, the engineers were already working on. If the story was real (and not the just the wet dream/anticipation of someone else, "if an A321 get the air flex cabin than the A220 must have to get it too"), than this shall have been a request by Airbus according to the story, so Airbus shall have asked for it, If it will come, it will have several disadvantages. There is only space for two seats and (not three), and these seats will not have a window. These seats will be in the area in the back, where the fuselage is getting already smaller and there will be only a limited space for overhead bins. And they will have a direct view on the lavatory door...passengers will really like to get these two seats :cry2:


I flew on a BA A319 in the last row recently and it was just like that. Two seats either toilet opening opposite. No window either.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:45 pm

nighthawk wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.


I think Boeing / American Airlines are the market leader in that department...

Neither of you have heard of Airbus Spaceflex? That is possibly the tightest loo ever anywhere on earth.
 
leghorn
Topic Author
Posts: 1297
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
T4thH wrote:
This was not on the list of the Bombardier team PIPs for the A220, the engineers were already working on. If the story was real (and not the just the wet dream/anticipation of someone else, "if an A321 get the air flex cabin than the A220 must have to get it too"), than this shall have been a request by Airbus according to the story, so Airbus shall have asked for it, If it will come, it will have several disadvantages. There is only space for two seats and (not three), and these seats will not have a window. These seats will be in the area in the back, where the fuselage is getting already smaller and there will be only a limited space for overhead bins. And they will have a direct view on the lavatory door...passengers will really like to get these two seats :cry2:


I flew on a BA A319 in the last row recently and it was just like that. Two seats either toilet opening opposite. No window either.

...so a potential customer has no moral compunction against taking this option up if it were to be made available.
I assume when BA need to replace the A319 they can be steered toward this and free up a slot in production for a highly profitable A321LR or XLR for another customer.
I assume the same wheeze of fitting two or three more in can be applied equally to 220-100 300 and future 500.
Being a lighter plane they'll have to pay less for fuel and landing charges.
Last edited by leghorn on Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
whywhytee
Posts: 51
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:53 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.


Boeing too with the 737 MAX
 
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DL747400
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:16 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
asdf wrote:
so its a million per year per seat
lotta money ....

The article in the first post states it's hundreds of thousands for each seat, not a million. But is the article correct? Hundreds of thousands already is a lot of money, maybe too much money.


Not if you are discussing a DELTA A220, since you have to factor in the revenue premium they enjoy versus peers. That referenced $ amount may not be too low at all in that context.
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7673mech
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:26 pm

Topics always go off course and end up in an A vs B discussion. Airlines are ultimately responsible for lavs and galleys.
Both aircraft mfg demonstrators have normal pitch and lavatories.
It’s the airlines who demand 4 across in 777 and 3x3x3 in A330 and tiny lavs and galleys.
Wish these discussions wouldn’t be so childish.
 
amstone17
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:46 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Airbus has become very good at making galleys and lavs just big enough that the UN will not classify them as inhumane torture devices to make more space for seats...

Then again, I suppose this is what the airlines want.



Boeing has been at it as well, the 737-900 being notorious for having one of the worst lavs ever designed, where the can in a corner of an Il-76 is more spacious at least.

Passengers and crew hate them, but airlines like the extra seats and that's that. It's not really Airbus or Boeing going out of their way to torture passengers, their clients demand it.
 
leghorn
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:58 pm

I avoid airline toilets. If you route is less than 2 hours you are best off going before or holding it in. I'm happy enough to pay small fares even if it is accomplished by smaller loos.
 
Armodeen
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:01 pm

BA’s ‘densified’ A319s are exactly like that already.

T4thH wrote:
This was not on the list of the Bombardier team PIPs for the A220, the engineers were already working on. If the story was real (and not the just the wet dream/anticipation of someone else, "if an A321 get the air flex cabin than the A220 must have to get it too"), than this shall have been a request by Airbus according to the story, so Airbus shall have asked for it, If it will come, it will have several disadvantages. There is only space for two seats and (not three), and these seats will not have a window. These seats will be in the area in the back, where the fuselage is getting already smaller and there will be only a limited space for overhead bins. And they will have a direct view on the lavatory door...passengers will really like to get these two seats :cry2:
 
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reidar76
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:12 pm

For the A220-100, the maximum number of seats in a LCC configuration was 133 seats under Bombardier. Airbus has raised this to 135 seats. There is no change for the A220-300. It has a maximum of 160 seats, with both overwing exits activated.

I wonder if Airbus is considering offering the A220 family with 6 abreast seating. It would probably be a hit with Asian LCC. According to wiki the A220 has a fuselage diameter of 3.7 m (12 ft 2 in), while the 737 has a diameter of 3.8 m (12 ft 6 in).
 
T4thH
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Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:27 pm

I have now done something, I have not prior done (as I was not interested). If I check all these plans, as can be seen with the Swiss A220-100 and Air Canada A220-300 lavatory/galley combination in the back, is there really a need? And also there it seems, there is no real standard, so already now everyone can already order every combination of seats, lavatories, galleys for the back area e.g.

Question is only, are all of these seat maps correct?

Delta:
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Delta_Airlines/Delta_Airlines_DL_Airbus_A220-100.php
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a220-100
Korean Airlines:
https://airlinesfleet.com/korean-air-fleet-airbus-a220-300-details-and-pictures/
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Korean_Air/Korean_Air_CS_300.php
Air Baltic
https://airlinesfleet.com/airbaltic-fleet-airbus-a220-300-details-and-pictrures/
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Baltic/AirBaltic_Airbus_A220-300.php
Swiss A220-100
https://airlinesfleet.com/swiss-fleet-bombardier-cs100-details-and-pictures/
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss_Airlines/SWISS_LX_Airbus_A220-100_A.php
Swiss: A220-300
https://airlinesfleet.com/swiss-fleet-airbus-a220-300-details-and-pictures/
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss_Airlines/SWISS_LX_Airbus_A220-300_A.php
Air Canada A220-300.
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Air_Canada/Air_Canada_AC_Airbus_A220-300_A.php


I have not found a seat map for EgyptAir/Air Sinai.A220-300 nor Air Tanzania A220-300
 
dstblj52
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: 3 extra seats for the taking on A220

Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:29 pm

reidar76 wrote:
For the A220-100, the maximum number of seats in a LCC configuration was 133 seats under Bombardier. Airbus has raised this to 135 seats. There is no change for the A220-300. It has a maximum of 160 seats, with both overwing exits activated.

I wonder if Airbus is considering offering the A220 family with 6 abreast seating. It would probably be a hit with Asian LCC. According to wiki the A220 has a fuselage diameter of 3.7 m (12 ft 2 in), while the 737 has a diameter of 3.8 m (12 ft 6 in).

That would massively change the weight and balance and would those require a serious redesign, not like the fairly simple changes they have been doing so far

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