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xwb777
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French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:55 pm

A French Bee A350 (Reg: F-HREV) has lost both Speed and altitude during landing at Paris Orly enroute from San Fransisco Int. Airport.

As the aircraft was on 900 feet it encountered a wind shear that made the pilots perform a go-around for a second attempt. Once the aircraft was on climb to 5,000 feet, it suddenly saw a reduction in speed and descended to 2,500 feet.

Once the aircraft reached 1,200 feet, the aircraft had accelerated to a speed of 290 knots over ground. The aircraft regained altitude and made a successful second approach landing 15 minutes later on runway 25 following the go-around incident.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/french-bee-go- ... m=facebook
 
Etheereal
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:09 pm

290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft
 
barney captain
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:20 pm

Etheereal wrote:
290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft



They said 290kts ground speed - not indicated. Additionally, exceeding 250kts below 10k is neither "too fast" or "dangerous" and is common practice in many parts of the world.

There were things that apparently happened in this event that were potentially dangerous, excess airspeed being the least of them.
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Etheereal
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:28 pm

Ah i see, i thoght it was IAS. But as far as im aware you're supposed to have 250kts in controlled areas below 10k feet no?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:37 pm

barney captain wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft



They said 290kts ground speed - not indicated. Additionally, exceeding 250kts below 10k is neither "too fast" or "dangerous" and is common practice in many parts of the world.

There were things that apparently happened in this event that were potentially dangerous, excess airspeed being the least of them.


The way I read it is that 290 it’s at 1200 feet is not something any pilot would intentionally command the airplane to do during a go around. Something caused the airplane to go nose down and accelerate. Descending and from 5,000 ft to 1,200 ft and increasing speed from 170 knots to 290 knots during a go around is very dangerous.

My first question is whether the airplane had uncommanded nose down trim or elevator input.
 
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Aesma
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:42 pm

MCAS Airbus ?
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:44 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Ah i see, i thoght it was IAS. But as far as im aware you're supposed to have 250kts in controlled areas below 10k feet no?


The 250 kts speed limit applies in the United States, but not everywhere in the world.

With that said, I can’t think of any circumstance where it is appropriate for a passenger jet to be flying at 290 knots at 1200 ft. As far as I know only fighter jets are moving that fast that low on a regular basis.
 
HTCone
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:37 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Ah i see, i thoght it was IAS. But as far as im aware you're supposed to have 250kts in controlled areas below 10k feet no?


Not in most parts of the world, and even in many parts of the world where it does apply, it can be ignored at ATC discretion by restricting them to a speed above 250kts or "no ATC speed restriction/high speed approved/free speed", although we're not supposed to use that last one anymore.

Exceeding 250 kts below 10k is in no way dangerous, it's just a generic restriction in high traffic areas to make separation easier mainly for low level/departure/approach controllers.
Last edited by HTCone on Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HTCone
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:38 pm

HTCone wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Ah i see, i thoght it was IAS. But as far as im aware you're supposed to have 250kts in controlled areas below 10k feet no?


Not in most parts of the world, and even in many parts of the world where it does apply, it can be ignored at ATC discretion by restricting them to a speed above 250kts or "no ATC speed restriction/high speed approved/free speed", although we're not supposed to use that last one anymore.

Exceeding 250 kts below 10k is in no way dangerous, it's just a generic restriction in high traffic areas to make separation easier mainly for low level/departure/approach controllers. Is it true you get a fine in the US for exceeding 250kts below 10k in the US?
Last edited by HTCone on Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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zeke
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:39 pm

barney captain wrote:
They said 290kts ground speed - not indicated. Additionally, exceeding 250kts below 10k is neither "too fast" or "dangerous" and is common practice in many parts of the world.


Looks like they commenced a turn from a westerly heading starting at 2500’ and during the turn lost 1200 ft and gained speed.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:01 pm

zeke wrote:
barney captain wrote:
They said 290kts ground speed - not indicated. Additionally, exceeding 250kts below 10k is neither "too fast" or "dangerous" and is common practice in many parts of the world.


Looks like they commenced a turn from a westerly heading starting at 2500’ and during the turn lost 1200 ft and gained speed.
Source FlightAware https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FBU ... /KSFO/LFPO
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Do you have any explanation for how that could have happened?
 
hivue
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:54 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
With that said, I can’t think of any circumstance where it is appropriate for a passenger jet to be flying at 290 knots at 1200 ft.


So if the airplane stalls at some altitude above 1200, the crew does the stall recovery procedure including putting the nose down, and the airplane happens to level out 40 kts above 250 kts at 1200 ft that's an inappropriate action by the crew?

Having said that, this was an A350 presumably in Normal Law so the airplane presumably did not stall.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:02 pm

hivue wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
With that said, I can’t think of any circumstance where it is appropriate for a passenger jet to be flying at 290 knots at 1200 ft.


So if the airplane stalls at some altitude above 1200, the crew does the stall recovery procedure including putting the nose down, and the airplane happens to level out 40 kts above 250 kts at 1200 ft that's an inappropriate action by the crew?

Having said that, this was an A350 presumably in Normal Law so the airplane presumably did not stall.


I’d say something is pretty wrong if an A350 stalls. That should never happen. The crew should never get close enough to a stall to have to lower the nose like that unless it is pretty extreme wind shear. The descent and altitude numbers provided earlier in the thread show that the airplane was 50 seconds from hitting the ground at an Unsurvivable speed.
 
Etheereal
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:01 pm

hivue wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
With that said, I can’t think of any circumstance where it is appropriate for a passenger jet to be flying at 290 knots at 1200 ft.


So if the airplane stalls at some altitude above 1200, the crew does the stall recovery procedure including putting the nose down, and the airplane happens to level out 40 kts above 250 kts at 1200 ft that's an inappropriate action by the crew?

Having said that, this was an A350 presumably in Normal Law so the airplane presumably did not stall.

An Airbus plane (specially the 350) should not stall under normal law.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:05 pm

Getting a go-around wrong and temporarily losing control of the a/c is an increasingly common type of incident these days. I would look into crew actions first, rather than into airplane systems...
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
kiowa
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:07 pm

Etheereal wrote:
290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft


In my old Air Force days is seems I was much faster and lower than that on occasion and never thought it dangerous.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:15 pm

kiowa wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft


In my old Air Force days is seems I was much faster and lower than that on occasion and never thought it dangerous.


Context is everything. 290 knots on a training mission for the air force in the middle of no where is a lot different than an A350 descending during a go around at 1200 feet just south of Paris. The A350 was less than a minute from hitting the ground at an unsurvivable speed, which many would consider dangerous.
 
cedarjet
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:30 pm

I wonder if the guy or girl was hand flying it and became spatially disorientated in the turn.

I know a senior training captain at one of Europe’s biggest LCCs, and there’s a simulator scenario they give to pilots on their check ride to recover from, it starts at (roughly these numbers) 36 degrees of bank, 20 degrees nose up, 108 knots, 30 feet altitude. Then they release the sim and you have to recover without hitting the ground. It seems unrecoverable but not only is it recoverable but it’s been done by a captain who took over from a new FO who really got it wrong. The incident wasn’t publicised (my buddy won’t be drawn on the where and when) but that it happened goes to show not every serious disorientation event results in a crash or incident report.
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hivue
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:46 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Context is everything. 290 knots on a training mission for the air force in the middle of no where is a lot different than an A350 descending during a go around at 1200 feet just south of Paris. The A350 was less than a minute from hitting the ground at an unsurvivable speed, which many would consider dangerous.


Yes , context is everything. Every airplane that ever took off eventually is less than one minute from hitting the ground at an unsurvivable speed. The context would be what level of control the pilot has. We don;t know the level of control the crew of this A350 had at that particular point in the go around (although it appears they didn't have adequate control prior to that point). I don't understand this obsession with 290 kts below 10,000 ft when obviously there were worse issues for the this crew to handle.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
kiowa
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:45 pm

hivue wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
Context is everything. 290 knots on a training mission for the air force in the middle of no where is a lot different than an A350 descending during a go around at 1200 feet just south of Paris. The A350 was less than a minute from hitting the ground at an unsurvivable speed, which many would consider dangerous.


Yes , context is everything. Every airplane that ever took off eventually is less than one minute from hitting the ground at an unsurvivable speed. The context would be what level of control the pilot has. We don;t know the level of control the crew of this A350 had at that particular point in the go around (although it appears they didn't have adequate control prior to that point). I don't understand this obsession with 290 kts below 10,000 ft when obviously there were worse issues for the this crew to handle.



exactly
 
cpd
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:52 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Ah i see, i thoght it was IAS. But as far as im aware you're supposed to have 250kts in controlled areas below 10k feet no?


Not always, sometimes dispensation is given. I’ve seen Qantas 747-400ER aircraft absolutely screaming along at 7000ft just over Sydney’s north shore.

However, those were climbing and heavy. Not doing a go around.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:29 am

thepinkmachine wrote:
Getting a go-around wrong and temporarily losing control of the a/c is an increasingly common type of incident these days. I would look into crew actions first, rather than into airplane systems...


Yup. We don't know if the autopilot was on or not during the maneuver. That would be a good place to start.
Weather conditions such as windshear could potentially be another factor.
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zeke
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:31 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:

Do you have any explanation for how that could have happened?


They may have mishandled the go around, used TOGA for windshear which is normal, then recovering from the wind shear escape (gear and configuration is left unchanged) to a normal go around where flap and gear is retracted they didn’t bring the thrust back from TOGA resulting in an over speed, disconnect the autopilot and autothrust as a result of the over speed warning and then not put it back in again during the turn.
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KFTG
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:01 am

Etheereal wrote:
290kts is way too fast and dangerous to do below 10.000ft

Not if you're in an imminent stall. Pitch (unload the wing) and full power, to hell with the regulations.
 
Amsterdam
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:23 am

zeke wrote:
barney captain wrote:
They said 290kts ground speed - not indicated. Additionally, exceeding 250kts below 10k is neither "too fast" or "dangerous" and is common practice in many parts of the world.


Looks like they commenced a turn from a westerly heading starting at 2500’ and during the turn lost 1200 ft and gained speed.
Source FlightAware https://flightaware.com/live/flight/FBU ... /KSFO/LFPO
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119kts
 
DH106
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Re: French Bee Airbus A350 Loses Speed & Altitude During Go Around

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:36 am

If they encountered wind shear and went around, then on exiting a micro-burst the ground speed may have been considerably in excess of their airspeed i.e. there'd be considerable tailwind component. Thus their airspeed might have been much lower than 290Kts
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