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airporthistory
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Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:25 pm

Hi folks,

I was wondering why there was never a scheduled Concorde service between London and Boston. Were there simply not enough 'banksters, stars 'n sheisters' to sustain the route, or was it due to local noise considerations? Or was there perhaps an entirely different reason, such as availability of aircraft? Does anyone know if it was ever seriously considered by BA? After all, they flew to IAD and MIA for a number of years.

Thank you in advance for answering my question!
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:48 pm

Because BOS isn’t the financial capital of the world.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ScottB
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:49 pm

airporthistory wrote:
Hi folks,

I was wondering why there was never a scheduled Concorde service between London and Boston. Were there simply not enough 'banksters, stars 'n sheisters' to sustain the route, or was it due to local noise considerations? Or was there perhaps an entirely different reason, such as availability of aircraft? Does anyone know if it was ever seriously considered by BA? After all, they flew to IAD and MIA for a number of years.

Thank you in advance for answering my question!


Almost certainly due to economic reasons. The Concorde did make several special visits to BOS over the years and Logan also saw a number of diversions. Early in Concorde's career, Boston was finally recovering from a decades-long economic decline thanks to the Massachusetts Miracle, but even by the time of Concorde's retirement in 2003, Terminal E was still a far quieter place than its peers at JFK/MIA/IAD.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:15 pm

Back then, airlines felt quite happy to tell Boston-bound folks that they had to go through JFK. Things are still this way, albeit to a much, much lesser degree.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
FGITD
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:23 pm

not a routine service, but I think BOS saw its fair share of Concordes over the years. Enough so that BA did a farewell flight there. Also BOS hosted one of the great concorde demos. The great AF concorde vs 747 race.

Unfortunately the businesses that BOS has been historically strongest in were never the types that required quick transport. So no real need
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:29 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
Back then, airlines felt quite happy to tell Boston-bound folks that they had to go through JFK. Things are still this way, albeit to a much, much lesser degree.


Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.
 
Arion640
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:52 pm

They ran a few one off’s, but LHR-JFK and to a lesser extent CDG-JFK, were the only real profitable routes for Concorde.
 
airbazar
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:56 pm

Back then the market wasn't what it is today. Boston was very much a secondary market and as alluded to the Concorde crowd was mostly from finance and entertainment, two areas that Boston wasn't and still isn't very heavy on. Not even Hong Kong had the volume of demand to warrant Concorde service.Today the demand for premium travel is far more diversified and Boston is much more of a global destination than it used to be.
 
citationjet
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:02 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.


In 1983, JFK had much more non-stop service to Europe, compared to BOS.

JFK had nonstop service to:
PRG, REK, FCO, Malaga, MXP, MUC, OSL, CDG, ORY, FRA, GVA, HEL, LGW, LHR, MAD, AMS, ATH, Belgrade, BRU, CPH, DUS, SNN, ARN, ZRH, TLV, Monrovia, SCQ, Terceira, Zagreb.
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p1.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p2.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p3.html

BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
Not even Hong Kong had the volume of demand to warrant Concorde service.


Surely Hong Kong - LHR or JFK or even LAX were way beyond Concordes range even before you had routing problems with the sonic boom for either of the LHR/JFK options?
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:47 pm

citationjet wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.


In 1983, JFK had much more non-stop service to Europe, compared to BOS.

JFK had nonstop service to:
PRG, REK, FCO, Malaga, MXP, MUC, OSL, CDG, ORY, FRA, GVA, HEL, LGW, LHR, MAD, AMS, ATH, Belgrade, BRU, CPH, DUS, SNN, ARN, ZRH, TLV, Monrovia, SCQ, Terceira, Zagreb.
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p1.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p2.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p3.html

BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html


Don't forget KEF there! ;)

Also, Monrovia is in Africa. Your point is still valid though.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
LAXffDUB
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:53 pm

I once heard a BA manager in the US comment that their Concorde service at JFK and IAD were its "bread and butter" routes. That was because of its major clienteles; Wall Street types and State Department people who needed fast travel times to meet counterparts. Any VIPs who used it were just gravy and free PR. They also mentioned the late afternoon/early evening flight from LHR to JFK was quite popular and usually full; business people would put in a full day and still make it home in time for dinner! That was one of the aspects for a BA ad campaign around that time promoting Concorde as "the Ultimate Time Machine".
 
iyerhari
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:55 pm

citationjet wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.


In 1983, JFK had much more non-stop service to Europe, compared to BOS.

JFK had nonstop service to:
PRG, REK, FCO, Malaga, MXP, MUC, OSL, CDG, ORY, FRA, GVA, HEL, LGW, LHR, MAD, AMS, ATH, Belgrade, BRU, CPH, DUS, SNN, ARN, ZRH, TLV, Monrovia, SCQ, Terceira, Zagreb.
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p1.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p2.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p3.html

BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html

Wow! BOS has grown leaps and bounds compared to this. DL has added back plus a lot more compared to what was retrenched.

Can't believe TLV was a BOS destination.

Thank you!
 
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adamh8297
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:01 pm

FGITD wrote:
not a routine service, but I think BOS saw its fair share of Concordes over the years. Enough so that BA did a farewell flight there. Also BOS hosted one of the great concorde demos. The great AF concorde vs 747 race.

Unfortunately the businesses that BOS has been historically strongest in were never the types that required quick transport. So no real need


I remember the European Team flew the BA Concorde to BOS when Ryder Cup was in Brookline Country Club.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
Bhoy
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:02 pm

citationjet wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.


In 1983, JFK had much more non-stop service to Europe, compared to BOS.

JFK had nonstop service to:
PRG, REK, FCO, Malaga, MXP, MUC, OSL, CDG, ORY, FRA, GVA, HEL, LGW, LHR, MAD, AMS, ATH, Belgrade, BRU, CPH, DUS, SNN, ARN, ZRH, TLV, Monrovia, SCQ, Terceira, Zagreb.
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p1.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p2.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p3.html

BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html

Boston had non-stop TATL service to La Guardia?
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:48 pm

No mention of Portugal and TAP in there for the BOS destinations.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:00 pm

In terms of range HKG would have been too far but don't forget there was a singapore service
for a while with a stop in the middle east until the Malaysians outlawed from their airspace.
So you could have done it to HKG.

BOS however probably just couldn't attract the premiums. Remember they also had to have one
spare on the ground at JFK at all times in case one went tech. It was part of the deal.
 
PresRDC
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:00 pm

The notion that Concorde was a time saver on eastbound flights is a fallacy. They were all daytime departures and whether you are going super or subsonic, you are still losing an entire day of productivity, all the more some when Concorde was operating, which almost entirely before the Internet and certainly well before the widespread use of handheld devices and in-flight Internet. An 8 am Concorde departure from JFK would land in London around 4:30 in the afternoon. You would arrive in time for dinner, but that was about it. An 8 am subsonic flight would arrive around 7:30. You could still do a (not really all that) late dinner.

Far more efficient to take an overnight flight and get the benefit of not missing a workday at all.

People took Concorde because it was cool and they could. They just justified as a time saver. Eastbound it was not.
 
airbazar
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:21 am

PresRDC wrote:
The notion that Concorde was a time saver on eastbound flights is a fallacy. They were all daytime departures and whether you are going super or subsonic, you are still losing an entire day of productivity, all the more some when Concorde was operating, which almost entirely before the Internet and certainly well before the widespread use of handheld devices and in-flight Internet. An 8 am Concorde departure from JFK would land in London around 4:30 in the afternoon. You would arrive in time for dinner, but that was about it. An 8 am subsonic flight would arrive around 7:30. You could still do a (not really all that) late dinner.

Far more efficient to take an overnight flight and get the benefit of not missing a workday at all.

People took Concorde because it was cool and they could. They just justified as a time saver. Eastbound it was not.


And yet to this day we have eastbound daytime flights, except they last a lot longer and waste even more time.
Unless you're taking a late night departure to LHR you're not getting any sleep. With Concorde even if you lost a day at least you slept in a real bed.
LHR-JFK
BA001 dept-10.30 arr-9.20
BA003 dept-19.00 arr-17.50
JFK-LHR
BA002 dept-08.45 arr-17.25
BA004 dept-13.45 arr-22.25
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:41 am

You guys are missing the much simpler ACTUAL answer:

Concorde (and funnily enough, TU144) were prohibited by law from having scheduled service into BOS:

    740 CMR §24.02 was the statute


You can read it here:
https://www.mass.gov/doc/740-cmr-24-log ... t/download
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
zrs70
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:24 am

Before deregulation. Bos was the second largest European gateway. There have always been many European carriers into Logan, long before those carriers flew into other us airports.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:47 am

While it's true that the actual time saving was Westbound, I can attest, having done two Eastbound, (IAD-LHR in November 1993 and a BA002 in September 2002), that you might not be saving time on the clock but you did not feel like you had done a normal Eastbound route. For the obvious less time in the air and the cabin pressure being lower than on conventional airliner. That and the service.
It is true that loads were generally lower Eastbound though.

Plenty of BOS charters over the years, I remember the Ryder Cup one being high profile.
 
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cathay747
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:36 pm

LAXffDUB wrote:
I once heard a BA manager in the US comment that their Concorde service at JFK and IAD were its "bread and butter" routes. That was because of its major clienteles; Wall Street types and State Department people who needed fast travel times to meet counterparts. Any VIPs who used it were just gravy and free PR. They also mentioned the late afternoon/early evening flight from LHR to JFK was quite popular and usually full; business people would put in a full day and still make it home in time for dinner! That was one of the aspects for a BA ad campaign around that time promoting Concorde as "the Ultimate Time Machine".


True except for "State Department people"...no friggin' way U.S. Govt. travel policy would have permitted (nor does it now) such a premium travel option at such an exorbitant fare, and you're also forgetting the "Fly America" rule!
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
You guys are missing the much simpler ACTUAL answer:

Concorde (and funnily enough, TU144) were prohibited by law from having scheduled service into BOS:

    740 CMR §24.02 was the statute


You can read it here:
https://www.mass.gov/doc/740-cmr-24-log ... t/download


So poor Boston, will not ever see convenient supersonic service should the Boom Overture succeed. What a shame for Bostonians.

Seems anti-business. Glad New York is more liberal and free and less uptight than Boston.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
aklrno
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:17 pm

Did you read that statute? It doesn't ban SSTs. It's a noise limit. If an aircraft can meet the noise restriction, it can operate.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:34 pm

aklrno wrote:
Did you read that statute? It doesn't ban SSTs. It's a noise limit. If an aircraft can meet the noise restriction, it can operate.



It does appear New York is more noise tolerant to technology than Boston is though. Yes?

Or were Concorde flights ONLY operated into Boston with waivers?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
citationjet
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:51 pm

Bhoy wrote:
citationjet wrote:
BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html

Boston had non-stop TATL service to La Guardia?


I meant LGW, not LGA.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:15 pm

The British still remember the Boston Tea Party.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:34 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Seems anti-business. Glad New York is more liberal and free and less uptight than Boston.

LOL, you do realize that New York banned Concorde as well, even earlier, and only relented due to being cowed by corporate pressure.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hondah35
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:42 am

Way back in the day, late '70's or so, my dad was a lawyer on retainer to an oilman in Dallas and flew with him one time to London on the Braniff Concorde DFW tag-on route.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:17 am

ChrisNH38 wrote:
Back then, airlines felt quite happy to tell Boston-bound folks that they had to go through JFK. Things are still this way, albeit to a much, much lesser degree.

Yeah, BOS’ transatlantic service is so minimal that they’ve decided to build a gorgeous new international terminal for the heck of it.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
FGITD
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:23 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
ChrisNH38 wrote:
Back then, airlines felt quite happy to tell Boston-bound folks that they had to go through JFK. Things are still this way, albeit to a much, much lesser degree.

Yeah, BOS’ transatlantic service is so minimal that they’ve decided to build a gorgeous new international terminal for the heck of it.


I think "back then" is referring a little further back than 7 months ago when they started work on the E expansion. Or 5 years ago when they started on the E a380 gates.


edit: this actually got me curious, and it's interesting to note that up until the 380 gates E10-12 opened a few years ago, seemingly both major milestones for the terminal were celebrated with concorde. The first was to celebrate opening/entry to service, second was to celebrate modernization/Retirement
 
airbazar
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:47 pm

FGITD wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
ChrisNH38 wrote:
Back then, airlines felt quite happy to tell Boston-bound folks that they had to go through JFK. Things are still this way, albeit to a much, much lesser degree.

Yeah, BOS’ transatlantic service is so minimal that they’ve decided to build a gorgeous new international terminal for the heck of it.


I think "back then" is referring a little further back than 7 months ago when they started work on the E expansion. Or 5 years ago when they started on the E a380 gates.


edit: this actually got me curious, and it's interesting to note that up until the 380 gates E10-12 opened a few years ago, seemingly both major milestones for the terminal were celebrated with concorde. The first was to celebrate opening/entry to service, second was to celebrate modernization/Retirement


I remember that second one. I took time off work to go see it arrive but the flight was delayed so much I had to leave and never saw it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74zgfYYvUds
 
loranfair
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:03 am

At some point BOS banned Concorde due to noise. In 1988 there was a flight scheduled for a golf tournament near Boston. Because of the ban, they landed at PVD, unloaded some golfers, then headed to JFK. Several officials came in to greet, them and the area around the airport was crowded with spectayors. I lived near the airport, but I was working outside Boston that day.
 
GDB
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:09 am

The Port Of New York were seen as more problematic, at first.
However the tests done in 1977, which were heavily monitored, involving the turn over the bay after departure, met the noise criteria. Much to the irritation of the protest groups. After that, the Port did not really have a leg to stand on, better yet the tests showed that turning over the bay registered lower on the sensors than the still many narrow bodies like the 707 and DC-8 still in the use at the time, which did not do this.

The first services to the US were in May 1976 to IAD, no issue there. But JFK was crucial for the aircraft hence the tests, which Judge William Coleman determined meant the Port Of New York had no legal way of banning the aircraft.

While I don't know for certain if and when US Government officials used the aircraft. the IMF did. Most years there were a series of charters supporting IMF talks, usually to IAD and also to and from IAD for the bigger meetings. While the IMF is 'International' it is an organisation founded by the US Government, has it's HQ in Washington and has many of it's staff from the US including government officials.

Not government but I do recall one instance of using the Eastbound service to get here quickly. In 1998 an industrial dispute at Ford's plant in Essex (east of London) became a news item when it was reported there was a racial component to them, fearing a PR shitstorm a senior Ford Executive, Jack Nasser, to get on the first BA002 he could and get over here to sort the dispute out.

Not aware of any formal banning by BOS, after the Port Of New York lost it's case it would be on sticky legal grounds, though it was only ever seen as a charter destination.
20th Sept 1999, G-BOAE operated a LHR-BOS, positioned to JFK and returned to the UK the following day as a JFK-LHR charter.
A few days later what look like an IMF support, meant that 26/27 Sept were very busy;
Sunday 26 Sept;
09.05 BA9093C LHR-JFK G-BOAE
10.30 BA001 LHR-JFK G-BOAC
19.00 BA003 LHR-JFK G-BOAD
20.25 BA1217 LHR-IAD G-BOAA
The planned BA002 had a delay, intake issue, it was re-timed and presumably pax were rebooked where possible on the BA004.
This was G-BOAG, however the BA003 was turned and operated the BA9179 to BOS. For a charter to LHR the following day.
G-BOAF had run the first IAD charter of the weekend the previous say, returning today as the BA1216 to LHR.
The BA004 being turned normally from that morning's BA001.
G-BOAA returned from IAD the following day as the BA1216, G-BOAD's charter out of BOS was the 12.45 departing BA9096C.

Between 1984 and 1991, the IAD service was extended down to MIA. For a month in summer 1988 this was changed to DFW.

Also in 1999, we ran several charters between JFK and BGI and back, these were run over the weekend of 13-14 Feb 1999.
 
psimpson
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Re: Concorde: why no LHR-BOS service?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:40 am

citationjet wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Back when? BOS certainly had non-stops to London, Paris and Frankfurt in 1980.


In 1983, JFK had much more non-stop service to Europe, compared to BOS.

JFK had nonstop service to:
PRG, REK, FCO, Malaga, MXP, MUC, OSL, CDG, ORY, FRA, GVA, HEL, LGW, LHR, MAD, AMS, ATH, Belgrade, BRU, CPH, DUS, SNN, ARN, ZRH, TLV, Monrovia, SCQ, Terceira, Zagreb.
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p1.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p2.html
http://www.departedflights.com/JFKI83p3.html

BOS had nonstop service to:
FRA, GLA, LHR, LGA, CDG, ORY, FCO, SHN, ZRH, TLV.
http://www.departedflights.com/BOSI83p1.html


In 1983 VIE also had nonstop services to JFK flown by Royal Jordanian B742s

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos