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sprxUSA
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:09 pm

krod031 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
enilria wrote:
Adding Steamboat seems like a decent idea (although with the MAX how will they source it?), but to Denver??? That part makes no sense. There will be no local market at all and Southwest doesn’t even have a truly banked hub. This will lose tons of money based on any industry typical modern measure of profitability.


Sounds like they're dropping a mid day DEN-LAS round trip.
Rumours have the flight time of something like this.
DEN-HDN
12:30-13:40
HDN-DEN
14:30-15:40
737-800NG

Flyguy



So how is this possible, when the announced route is a Winter route, and Southwest's schedule is only available for booking through August 10th? Is this one of your rumors?


Damn, it says rumour right in the response.
Gem State Airlines..."we have a gem of an airline"
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:35 pm

quickmover wrote:
enilria wrote:
Adding Steamboat seems like a decent idea (although with the MAX how will they source it?), but to Denver??? That part makes no sense. There will be no local market at all and Southwest doesn’t even have a truly banked hub. This will lose tons of money based on any industry typical modern measure of profitability.


I’m thinking the local traffic might be strong depending on fares. The drive from Denver is over 3 hours on winding roads, but probably not much more than a half hour flight. Should do well


Surprise move to say the least. Southwest is undoubtedly going to receive subsidy from the SSpgs resort association. It has the feel of lets just test the waters here and get an idea if the resort communities are potentially profitable and a future source of expansion for WN. The route will give United some competition from DEN where the fares are very high.

The drive time from Denver to Steamboat Springs can be significant given I-70 traffic and the two passes one must cross getting into Steamboat. This service will get some local traffic for sure.

If this venture is successful, other national ski resorts will likely be explored.

Frontier 14
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:16 pm

Well, this was certainly a surprise. There has to be a subsidy from some organization.

If WN was going after a BIG ski destination, it would have picked EGE, with Vail and Beaver Creek numbering something like 2.6+ million ski days a year. Also close to Summit County which adds another 3 million ski days a year.

This vs Steamboat, which might get 500,000 a year.
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:18 pm

enilria wrote:
The lack of banks means the connects will be uncompetitively long compared to UA.
Yes, it is leisure, see above comments on why this works so poorly for revenue management.


WN customers for the most part won't be comparing directly with UA simply because they're not on the third-party travel sites. Some might price compare between SWA's website and UAL's or Google Flights, but it's less likely they're going to add connection time to the equation. And, FWIW, UA is perfectly happy to sell some long connect times at DEN -- over six hours in some cases, even connecting to/from a hub market like LAX.

The revenue management angle will really hinge on the amount of the subsidy and whether those connections bring in significantly more revenue on the other legs than the company would realize without the connection to HDN. For something like LAX-HDN, for example, UA wants at least $600 for a round-trip on weekend days in peak ski season. But they'll sell you LAX-DEN on those same days for under $300 round-trip in most cases, undoubtedly matching WN/F9/NK. That connecting passenger is easily generating enough incremental revenue to justify the cost of getting them to and from HDN.

Jshank83 wrote:
That all said I’m not sure they are allowed to subsidize DEN-HDN on WN and not offer it to UA also. Unless they can only because WN is a new airline.


The subsidy is almost certainly coming from the Steamboat Ski & Resort Corp./Alterra Mountain Co., not from the airport or any other government entity. As a non-governmental entity, they can subsidize whatever they want. I'd speculate that the company had gotten negative feedback on guest surveys about the cost of flying to HDN.

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
WN has always told the good folks in Palm Springs that they don’t do seasonal service it’s not conducive to their business plan.....Wonder what they will use for an excuse now?


Historically they haven't done seasonal markets, but times change. And Palm Springs is a bit tricky for WN in that they're not strong in most of the markets which could support a daily 737 to PSP. They're big in the Bay Area but not SFO (which would be the strongest driver of PSP traffic in the region). They'd find it tough to compete against AS from SEA/PDX, or DL/SY from MSP. Maybe they could make DEN/MDW/DAL work with connecting traffic seasonally.

DLASFlyer wrote:
Surprised not to see JAC first.


WN had a short-lived weekly service to JAC back in the 1980s... so you could say it was first.
 
FATFlyer
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:17 pm

ScottB wrote:
The subsidy is almost certainly coming from the Steamboat Ski & Resort Corp./Alterra Mountain Co., not from the airport or any other government entity. As a non-governmental entity, they can subsidize whatever they want. I'd speculate that the company had gotten negative feedback on guest surveys about the cost of flying to HDN.


There is a Steamboat Springs Local Marketing District that includes various cities, counties, businesses, and the Resort. The LMD has subsidized other flights but I do not know if they are involved with WN's new service although I would suspect it is.
http://steamboatsprings.net/347/Local-Marketing-District
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:32 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The subsidy is almost certainly coming from the Steamboat Ski & Resort Corp./Alterra Mountain Co., not from the airport or any other government entity. As a non-governmental entity, they can subsidize whatever they want. I'd speculate that the company had gotten negative feedback on guest surveys about the cost of flying to HDN.


There is a Steamboat Springs Local Marketing District that includes various cities, counties, businesses, and the Resort. The LMD has subsidized other flights but I do not know if they are involved with WN's new service although I would suspect it is.
http://steamboatsprings.net/347/Local-Marketing-District


I'm assuming it's the resort just because the CEO is quoted in the press release and they're the deep pockets in the area. But obviously that's speculation.
 
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TWA302
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:52 pm

enilria wrote:
Adding Steamboat seems like a decent idea (although with the MAX how will they source it?), but to Denver??? That part makes no sense. There will be no local market at all and Southwest doesn’t even have a truly banked hub. This will lose tons of money based on any industry typical modern measure of profitability.


Have you ever done the drive from DEN to Steamboat? It is 156 miles but takes about 3 hours (on a good day). Of course, there will be little O/D from DEN. That isn't the goal here at all. A seasonal route for skiers coming to and from Steamboat via connections.US runs up to 4x daily DEN-HDN during peak season. WN can take a nice chunk of that, IMHO.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:19 pm

TWA302 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Adding Steamboat seems like a decent idea (although with the MAX how will they source it?), but to Denver??? That part makes no sense. There will be no local market at all and Southwest doesn’t even have a truly banked hub. This will lose tons of money based on any industry typical modern measure of profitability.


Have you ever done the drive from DEN to Steamboat? It is 156 miles but takes about 3 hours (on a good day). Of course, there will be little O/D from DEN. That isn't the goal here at all. A seasonal route for skiers coming to and from Steamboat via connections.US runs up to 4x daily DEN-HDN during peak season. WN can take a nice chunk of that, IMHO.


Yeah, Rabbit Ears pass is a joy on a snowy, icy day, and then there's Berthoud Pass, too - if you start/end at I-70
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:20 pm

KFTG wrote:
Thought they didn't like flying into non-towered airports? As I recall this was one of their excuses for removing service from Branson.



The Southwest near disaster into Branson when they landed at the completely wrong airport could have something to do with Branson as well as non-towered airports. It was not as big of a mistake as when Northwest landed a DC10 in the wrong country though.
 
B6BOSfan
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:30 pm

This is very much a subsidized route -- and i suspect is partially being funded by the war between Alterra Mountain Company (and its IKON Passes) and Vail Resorts (and the Epic Pass). Steamboat regularly sends emails advertising the non-stop JetBlue flights from BOS -- along with discounts to stay on property.

For about $650/year, the IKON pass gets you 5 days at dozens of ski resorts across North America. Vail's Epic Local Pass offers the same -- and they have been expanding their portfolio to include mountains in the Northeast, giving folks an incentive to fly west.

I flew B6 from BOS to HDN last year, a route that operates twice weekly again this year. HDN gets VERY busy during ski season, and the convenience to Steamboat makes it a GREAT option for skiers who have an IKON pass.

I have to wonder with this announcement if the subsidy for JetBlue is about to end, and in turn, the nonstop flights from BOS and FLL too? OR, is this a push to get even more skiers/snowboarders out to the mountain -- and compete harder with Vail Resorts?

The daily service is very interesting. The one complaint I had about the JetBlue schedule was the twice weekly flights, Wednesdays and Saturdays only. The Saturday service seemed to get booked up fast, but the Wednesday flights were always "light" -- based on seat map loads.

As far as I can tell, Vail Resorts doesn't tend to offer subsidies to any airlines to get them to fly people in.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:48 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
From their twitter.

We’ve just announced our intent to serve Steamboat Springs, Colorado!
More details to come, but keep your eyes on Winter 2020.


Oh - Hayden. To me, that's a bit like calling Eagle, Colorado (EGE) Aspen. That is, there is an airport at Steamboat Springs (SBS)(and at Aspen, too (ASE)). Still, this is a surprise. I wonder if WN will tackel EGE in the near future...?

Yes, I realize that the other carriers call HDN Steamboat Springs, too. Having flown in and out of both HDN and SBS, I know the difference.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:49 am

WN promoting Ski or board fly free along with one checked bag.
Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
DenverTed
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:31 am

Grand Junction used to be Colorado's #2 jetport. What happened?
 
alasizon
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:38 am

DenverTed wrote:
Grand Junction used to be Colorado's #2 jetport. What happened?


Colorado Springs grew (to take the #2 position) and over time flights have been added to ASE, MTJ and HDN that have taken traffic from GJT.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
FATFlyer
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:07 am

ScottB wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
ScottB wrote:
The subsidy is almost certainly coming from the Steamboat Ski & Resort Corp./Alterra Mountain Co., not from the airport or any other government entity. As a non-governmental entity, they can subsidize whatever they want. I'd speculate that the company had gotten negative feedback on guest surveys about the cost of flying to HDN.


There is a Steamboat Springs Local Marketing District that includes various cities, counties, businesses, and the Resort. The LMD has subsidized other flights but I do not know if they are involved with WN's new service although I would suspect it is.
http://steamboatsprings.net/347/Local-Marketing-District


I'm assuming it's the resort just because the CEO is quoted in the press release and they're the deep pockets in the area. But obviously that's speculation.


The Steamboat Springs LMD has multiple revenue streams to pay airline subsidies.

I understand the Resort gives the LMD about $1 million per year.

Additionally the LMD has a 2% accommodations tax (under 30 day rental) in the surrounding region. That provides about another $2 million per year.

There also used to be a 0.25% sales tax for the LMD to help with airline revenue guarantees. It expired in 2016 and was not renewed by local voters.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:10 am

This thread, good Lord. If this was AA or UA it wouldn’t make it to post 10.

WN knows what they’re doing, it’s a low risk way to use an airframe in an otherwise light period of the year. They picked DEN because a number of their markets have connections to DEN and it minimizes backtracking.

Subsidies will help, but WN’s model is evolving just like everyone else. They aren’t the secondary city underdog anymore. Of course they’re going to gravitate to some degree towards the legacies way of business. There are only so many cities you can fly 737s between 6x a day.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:35 am

kiowa wrote:
It was not as big of a mistake as when Northwest landed a DC10 in the wrong country though.

Ok I'll bite. When did that happen?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:38 am

Very exciting! The international realm appears to be fraught with risk for WN (if MEX was a failure, the likes of BOG, PTY, SDQ and even YYZ simply may not be worthwhile), while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).

As such, I figured the only viable expansion opportunities left for WN in the United States were highly seasonal leisure markets - though HDN didn't spring to mind like BZN, EGE, JAC and PSP did. I suspect all of those are contenders for WN service now.. and can't help but wonder if a return to BKG and/or EYW could happen too. While this experiment isn't entirely without precedent for WN, it will be very interesting to see how this test does!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:22 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It was not as big of a mistake as when Northwest landed a DC10 in the wrong country though.

Ok I'll bite. When did that happen?


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=northwest+dc-10+w ... untry&pp=1
 
FATFlyer
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:55 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).


The Office of Management and Budget redefined some Combined Statistical Areas in September 2018 which changes that statement.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Bulletin-18-04.pdf

The new definition of the Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Combined Statistical Area (FAT) at 1,303,438 is now larger than the Harrisburg-York-Lebanon, PA CSA (MDT) at 1,267,057.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
WN732
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:59 pm

ScottB wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It was not as big of a mistake as when Northwest landed a DC10 in the wrong country though.

Ok I'll bite. When did that happen?


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=northwest+dc-10+w ... untry&pp=1


LOL modern problems require modern solutions. That is genius.
 
kiowa
Posts: 777
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:26 pm

ScottB wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
kiowa wrote:
It was not as big of a mistake as when Northwest landed a DC10 in the wrong country though.

Ok I'll bite. When did that happen?


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=northwest+dc-10+w ... untry&pp=1


That is the Northwest one. This is the Southwest one.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/recor ... rt/171145/
 
flyfresno
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:32 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).


The Office of Management and Budget redefined some Combined Statistical Areas in September 2018 which changes that statement.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Bulletin-18-04.pdf

The new definition of the Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Combined Statistical Area (FAT) at 1,303,438 is now larger than the Harrisburg-York-Lebanon, PA CSA (MDT) at 1,267,057.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area


Domestically, Fresno beat Harrisburg for total pax in 2019, but Harrisburg had a higher domestic growth rate last year.

MTD's press release has this quote: "The outlook for 2020 is optimistic, although HIA is not projecting growth in passenger traffic." While I could not find a quote about what sort of growth is expected in 2020 at FAT, quite a few new seats have already been announced, and the master plan projects growth to continue.

FAT seems to have a slight edge for WN, but only by a hair.

All that said, the combination of the MAX issues and the potential for flight reductions from the corona virus probably both adversely affect both cities' chances.
 
phxsanslcpdx
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:48 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
This is very much a subsidized route -- and i suspect is partially being funded by the war between Alterra Mountain Company (and its IKON Passes) and Vail Resorts (and the Epic Pass). Steamboat regularly sends emails advertising the non-stop JetBlue flights from BOS -- along with discounts to stay on property.

For about $650/year, the IKON pass gets you 5 days at dozens of ski resorts across North America. Vail's Epic Local Pass offers the same -- and they have been expanding their portfolio to include mountains in the Northeast, giving folks an incentive to fly west.

I flew B6 from BOS to HDN last year, a route that operates twice weekly again this year. HDN gets VERY busy during ski season, and the convenience to Steamboat makes it a GREAT option for skiers who have an IKON pass.

I have to wonder with this announcement if the subsidy for JetBlue is about to end, and in turn, the nonstop flights from BOS and FLL too? OR, is this a push to get even more skiers/snowboarders out to the mountain -- and compete harder with Vail Resorts?


I seem to remember reading that JetBlue's numbers on LGB-HDN were absolutely dismal, which is somewhat surprising given that Ikon has good market penetration in the LA Basin. I could definitely see JetBlue canceling HDN altogether if their subsidies are ending.

As far as I can tell, Vail Resorts doesn't tend to offer subsidies to any airlines to get them to fly people in.


If that's the case, it sounds like very bad news for GUC, since Vail bought Crested Butte. Without subsidies, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go down to Denver-only. On the other hand, there are enough Epic passholders in Colorado Springs/Denver to probably more than make up for the lack of fly-in traffic.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1740
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:37 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Very exciting! The international realm appears to be fraught with risk for WN (if MEX was a failure, the likes of BOG, PTY, SDQ and even YYZ simply may not be worthwhile), while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).

As such, I figured the only viable expansion opportunities left for WN in the United States were highly seasonal leisure markets - though HDN didn't spring to mind like BZN, EGE, JAC and PSP did. I suspect all of those are contenders for WN service now.. and can't help but wonder if a return to BKG and/or EYW could happen too. While this experiment isn't entirely without precedent for WN, it will be very interesting to see how this test does!

Just how seasonal is JAC? Seems like it would be pretty busy in the summer too with Grand Teton and Yellowstone right there.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:56 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Very exciting! The international realm appears to be fraught with risk for WN (if MEX was a failure, the likes of BOG, PTY, SDQ and even YYZ simply may not be worthwhile), while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).

As such, I figured the only viable expansion opportunities left for WN in the United States were highly seasonal leisure markets - though HDN didn't spring to mind like BZN, EGE, JAC and PSP did. I suspect all of those are contenders for WN service now.. and can't help but wonder if a return to BKG and/or EYW could happen too. While this experiment isn't entirely without precedent for WN, it will be very interesting to see how this test does!

Just how seasonal is JAC? Seems like it would be pretty busy in the summer too with Grand Teton and Yellowstone right there.


I don't have any firm numbers. It's still active in the summer, with nonstops to three or four places, including some mainline stuff. But nothing compared to winter.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:43 pm

I can see SouthWest covering many, many more Ski Destinations.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:47 pm

sw733 wrote:
I don't have any firm numbers. It's still active in the summer, with nonstops to three or four places, including some mainline stuff. But nothing compared to winter.


Very seasonal but there are two peak seasons. Summer is actually bigger than winter. Nonstop destinations number over a dozen now.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/env ... b0276.html
Last edited by DLASFlyer on Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
orcajet
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:51 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Just how seasonal is JAC? Seems like it would be pretty busy in the summer too with Grand Teton and Yellowstone right there.

JAC is busier in summer than winter at this point so your assumption would be correct. https://www.jacksonholeairport.com/reco ... lanements/
 
sw733
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:14 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
sw733 wrote:
I don't have any firm numbers. It's still active in the summer, with nonstops to three or four places, including some mainline stuff. But nothing compared to winter.


Very seasonal but there are two peak seasons. Summer is actually bigger than winter. Nonstop destinations number over a dozen now.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/env ... b0276.html


Wow, I had no idea. I was there this past summer and was surprised how much aircraft movement I saw...was just kind of naive to the fact that summer was busier than winter.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 390
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:54 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).


The Office of Management and Budget redefined some Combined Statistical Areas in September 2018 which changes that statement.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Bulletin-18-04.pdf

The new definition of the Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Combined Statistical Area (FAT) at 1,303,438 is now larger than the Harrisburg-York-Lebanon, PA CSA (MDT) at 1,267,057.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

CSA population is not a good measure of air travel demand, the largest domestic market without WN is ANC
 
alasizon
Posts: 2624
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 pm

sw733 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
sw733 wrote:
I don't have any firm numbers. It's still active in the summer, with nonstops to three or four places, including some mainline stuff. But nothing compared to winter.


Very seasonal but there are two peak seasons. Summer is actually bigger than winter. Nonstop destinations number over a dozen now.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/env ... b0276.html


Wow, I had no idea. I was there this past summer and was surprised how much aircraft movement I saw...was just kind of naive to the fact that summer was busier than winter.


The problem with JAC is the shoulder seasons, just not enough demand Mar-May and Sep-Mid Nov.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
denkcflyer
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Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:38 am

I work in the Colorado ski industry, and news of this flight has definitely been talk of the town lately. For many of the ski resorts out here, Texas is the largest destination market and are some of the highest spenders. While this route comes as a surprise, it does makes sense. I cannot speak to the economical impact on WN that this route will have, and will not even try to.

On top of tapping into the Texas market, the commute from DIA and Denver in general is hairy in the winter months. It’s already been said, but I will reiterate that ski traffic, especially on the weekends, is terrible and only getting worse. It’s not unusual for I70 to close for hours at a time. With two huge corporations owning the majority of the resorts and selling cheap passes, plus the Denver population booming, the traffic situation will continue to go downhill.

In terms of the luxury, Steamboat trails behind Aspen and Vail/Beaver Creek, but it is higher end and lends itself to leisure travelers with expendable income. I can definitely see second homeowners utilizing the route from DEN.

Just my two cents. Excited to see how this one plays out
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:50 am

Aliqiout wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
while the largest unserved domestic metropolitan areas are now GSO (a risky venture in its own right) and MDT (an airport WN declined to serve when it acquired FL).


The Office of Management and Budget redefined some Combined Statistical Areas in September 2018 which changes that statement.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Bulletin-18-04.pdf

The new definition of the Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Combined Statistical Area (FAT) at 1,303,438 is now larger than the Harrisburg-York-Lebanon, PA CSA (MDT) at 1,267,057.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area

CSA population is not a good measure of air travel demand, the largest domestic market without WN is ANC


That's not exactly the best measure either. There's a combination of all that have to be looked at. GSO has to be weighed against both CLT and RDU as GSO's market overlaps. Plus potential is measured against other market pull (particularly SW Va). All that is probably a moot point as WN serving GSO will impact RDU's service.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10197
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:33 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
This is very much a subsidized route -- and i suspect is partially being funded by the war between Alterra Mountain Company (and its IKON Passes) and Vail Resorts (and the Epic Pass). Steamboat regularly sends emails advertising the non-stop JetBlue flights from BOS -- along with discounts to stay on property.

For about $650/year, the IKON pass gets you 5 days at dozens of ski resorts across North America. Vail's Epic Local Pass offers the same -- and they have been expanding their portfolio to include mountains in the Northeast, giving folks an incentive to fly west.

I flew B6 from BOS to HDN last year, a route that operates twice weekly again this year. HDN gets VERY busy during ski season, and the convenience to Steamboat makes it a GREAT option for skiers who have an IKON pass.

I have to wonder with this announcement if the subsidy for JetBlue is about to end, and in turn, the nonstop flights from BOS and FLL too? OR, is this a push to get even more skiers/snowboarders out to the mountain -- and compete harder with Vail Resorts?

The daily service is very interesting. The one complaint I had about the JetBlue schedule was the twice weekly flights, Wednesdays and Saturdays only. The Saturday service seemed to get booked up fast, but the Wednesday flights were always "light" -- based on seat map loads.

As far as I can tell, Vail Resorts doesn't tend to offer subsidies to any airlines to get them to fly people in.


Ding, ding, ding! I said almost the exact same thing on the Boston thread when B6 announced service to HDN and then BZN.
Only thing I'm going to say is that I'm pretty sure Vail offers guarantees/subsidies to the airlines flying into EGE.
DL is known to run seasonal, Saturday service into some of these ski towns from ATL for example and I expect WN and B6 to follow suit.
The Ikon and Epic passes bring a ton of visitors to these resorts, myself included.
I would gladly opt for a connection via DEN vs. a non-stop on B6 because of "bags fly free". That and B6 is only 2x weekly.
DEN is the perfect hub from which to serve all of these seasonal destinations.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:27 pm

denkcflyer wrote:
I work in the Colorado ski industry, and news of this flight has definitely been talk of the town lately. For many of the ski resorts out here, Texas is the largest destination market and are some of the highest spenders. While this route comes as a surprise, it does makes sense. I cannot speak to the economical impact on WN that this route will have, and will not even try to.

On top of tapping into the Texas market, the commute from DIA and Denver in general is hairy in the winter months. It’s already been said, but I will reiterate that ski traffic, especially on the weekends, is terrible and only getting worse. It’s not unusual for I70 to close for hours at a time. With two huge corporations owning the majority of the resorts and selling cheap passes, plus the Denver population booming, the traffic situation will continue to go downhill.

In terms of the luxury, Steamboat trails behind Aspen and Vail/Beaver Creek, but it is higher end and lends itself to leisure travelers with expendable income. I can definitely see second homeowners utilizing the route from DEN.

Just my two cents. Excited to see how this one plays out


Stupid quesiton that you can probably answer here: how much precipitation does HDN (the airport, not the area) get? The 738 is not a great performer on contaminated runways, and despite the fact that it's not a very long flight I'm not 100 percent convinced that WN can get in and out with a lot of pax and bags if the runway is contaminated.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
joeblow10
Posts: 461
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest adding Steamboat Springs

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:48 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
denkcflyer wrote:
I work in the Colorado ski industry, and news of this flight has definitely been talk of the town lately. For many of the ski resorts out here, Texas is the largest destination market and are some of the highest spenders. While this route comes as a surprise, it does makes sense. I cannot speak to the economical impact on WN that this route will have, and will not even try to.

On top of tapping into the Texas market, the commute from DIA and Denver in general is hairy in the winter months. It’s already been said, but I will reiterate that ski traffic, especially on the weekends, is terrible and only getting worse. It’s not unusual for I70 to close for hours at a time. With two huge corporations owning the majority of the resorts and selling cheap passes, plus the Denver population booming, the traffic situation will continue to go downhill.

In terms of the luxury, Steamboat trails behind Aspen and Vail/Beaver Creek, but it is higher end and lends itself to leisure travelers with expendable income. I can definitely see second homeowners utilizing the route from DEN.

Just my two cents. Excited to see how this one plays out


Stupid quesiton that you can probably answer here: how much precipitation does HDN (the airport, not the area) get? The 738 is not a great performer on contaminated runways, and despite the fact that it's not a very long flight I'm not 100 percent convinced that WN can get in and out with a lot of pax and bags if the runway is contaminated.


HDN is in an interesting location - the transition of the mountains to the East towards the drier, arid areas West near Dinosaur/Vernal. Google search says they get about half the snow Steamboat itself gets (~80 inches vs 160)

AA runs fully laden 738s from DFW, so I doubt the takeoff performance will be an issue. It’s more about when the airport shuts down in general due to snow, which I’ve had the misfortune of experiencing several times. Ironically - the plane will likely wind up going back to DEN to wait for a window

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