ANA orders 20 additional 787s

LAXintl · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:12 am

Nice follow on order and a bit of good news for Boeing. ANA also opted for GE's GEnx-1B engines instead of RR like the rest of 787 fleet.

TOKYO, Feb. 25, 2020 - ANA HOLDINGS INC.will expand its fleet with the mixed order of 20 new Boeing 787-9 and 787-10 aircraft. The decision was approved at today's board meeting, and the order will include a firm order of 11 787-10 aircraft and 9 787-9 models. The 787-10s, which has been selected to serve the airline's domestic routes, will enter service between FY2022 and FY2024, with the 787-9s, scheduled for international service beginning in FY2024 and concluding in FY2025.

ANA press release:

ANA HOLDINGS Expands Fleet with Decision to Place Orders for 20 New Boeing 787s
https://www.anahd.co.jp/group/en/pr/202 ... 225-3.html

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juliuswong · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:24 am

Nice order boost for both 787 and Boeing! I guess this will progressively replace their earlier B767 and B777.

Ishrion · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:24 am

Nice win for Boeing, assuming ANA is once again the largest operator of the 787 after American temporarily beat them with their order for 47 aircraft?

KFTG · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:35 am

LAXintl wrote:
ANA also opted for GE's GEnx-1B engines instead of RR like the rest of 787 fleet.

Can't imagine why...

reply1984 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:41 am

KFTG wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
ANA also opted for GE's GEnx-1B engines instead of RR like the rest of 787 fleet.

Can't imagine why...

The poor reliability of RR engines on 787 is not a secret...

KFTG · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:54 am

reply1984 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
ANA also opted for GE's GEnx-1B engines instead of RR like the rest of 787 fleet.

Can't imagine why...

The poor reliability of RR engines on 787 is not a secret...

Neither is my use of sarcasm.

questions · Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:57 am

Are all of NH’s 787 now configured 3-3-3 in Y?

RJMAZ · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:00 am

When was the last 787 order with RR engines?

I can see the 787 becoming GE only very soon. I expect GE to fund a big PIP in exchange for Boeing giving them sole source.

I'm not sure if this would be worthy of being called a 787NEO. It might use the same nacelle so very little certification. RR snuck an entirely new core into the Trent 1000 without most people knowing that was called the TrentTen.

I'd expect the GenX-3B to use all of the GE9X tech. So a slightly smaller and hotter core resulting in a higher pressure ratio and a bypass ratio getting close to 10:1.

I'd estimate a 5% fuel burn reduction which should see the 787-9 match the brochure range of the 280t A350-900. Many posters have mentioned that the 787-10 will become the highest selling model once the brochure range hits 7000nm.

lightsaber · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:08 am

Wow, I honestly didn't expect this, not the switch to GE. Kudos to GE/Boeing.

Per op link, deliveries 2022 to 2024, do keeping the line going.

Lightsaber

Antaras · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:17 am

RJMAZ wrote:
When was the last 787 order with RR engines?

MIAT I guess???

---------------

So ANA becomes the next one after ANZ to give up the RR and choose the GE ????

Momo1435 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:22 am

RJMAZ wrote:
When was the last 787 order with RR engines?

I can see the 787 becoming GE only very soon. I expect GE to fund a big PIP in exchange for Boeing giving them sole source.

I'm not sure if this would be worthy of being called a 787NEO. It might use the same nacelle so very little certification. RR snuck an entirely new core into the Trent 1000 without most people knowing that was called the TrentTen.

I'd expect the GenX-3B to use all of the GE9X tech. So a slightly smaller and hotter core resulting in a higher pressure ratio and a bypass ratio getting close to 10:1.

I'd estimate a 5% fuel burn reduction which should see the 787-9 match the brochure range of the 280t A350-900. Many posters have mentioned that the 787-10 will become the highest selling model once the brochure range hits 7000nm.

The Lufthansa order last year was the last big 787 RR order, ALC also ordered a couple for specific customers in 2019. The Emirates order is still unknown.

The issues with the Trent 1000 are clearly costing RR business right now, but I doubt that they will want to leave the 787 program. The 787 remains the best selling widebody out there with the highest production rate. So they should want to be in no matter what. For Boeing it will also be good if both GE and RR keep giving customers 2 engine options. It does help with sales, even with the RR issues.

PM · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:28 am

This is very, very bad news for RR. I'd almost put it on a par with ANA ordering PW4000s for their first 777s.

qf789 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:44 am

This order will take NH to 102 787’s once delivered, this order also takes the 787-10 over 200 orders and the 787 family over 1500 orders

Ishrion · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:46 am

qf789 wrote:
This order will take NH to 102 787’s once delivered, this order also takes the 787-10 over 200 orders and the 787 family over 1500 orders

Shouldn't it be 98?

36 788s
33 789s + 15 firm orders (11 current, 4 new)
2 781s + 12 firm orders (1 current, 11 new)

UA444 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:19 am

PM wrote:
This is very, very bad news for RR. I'd almost put it on a par with ANA ordering PW4000s for their first 777s.

Why was that a big deal? The PW 777s had a lot of airlines.

acomp · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:24 am

Interesting...
ANA selects 787-10 for the domestic 772/773 replacement.

smi0006 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:44 am

acomp wrote:
Interesting...
ANA selects 787-10 for the domestic 772/773 replacement.

Interesting indeed - I wonder if other carriers would be open to a shorter range regional/domestic 78J be good to AU/Asian regional flying for QF also.

scbriml · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:28 am

Very nice top-up order for Boeing.

Noshow · Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:36 am

Should we be concerned for RR?

Scotron12 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:13 am

Noshow wrote:
Should we be concerned for RR?

Very classy statement by ANA. Quote: "The newly ordered planes will utilize engines manufactured by GE Aviation"

No criticism of RR, of which they have a right to do, seeing as all the problems they themselves experienced with their T-1000 issues. Plus the loss of revenue from aircraft underperformance.

Coupled with NZ, yes I'd be concerned about RR. Maybe just a fluke on timing that LH ordered the T-1000 last year.

T4thH · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:18 am

Noshow wrote:
Should we be concerned for RR?

I think, GE is in bigger trouble overall. The Trent XWB (A350) and the Trent 7000 (A330 Neo) are doing well, even much better than expected. RR sells more engines than GE and has more in the order books, still the Trent 1000 issues...are silly, if someone compares them to the extremely well performing Trent XWB/7000 of the same family, which also share many parts.
Pretty sure, the ANA order will help GE and GE will need this order.

PM · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:19 am

UA444 wrote:
PM wrote:
This is very, very bad news for RR. I'd almost put it on a par with ANA ordering PW4000s for their first 777s.

Why was that a big deal? The PW 777s had a lot of airlines.

ANA were on the point of ordering RR Trents for their 777s. At about the same time, BA opted for GE engines. That spooked ANA who then switched to PW. It was a real body blow to the Trent 800 programme.

Geoff1947 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:20 am

The press release makes it clear that it is 15 firm orders ( 11 x -10 and 4 x -9 ) plus 5 options for the -9. Nice business for Boeing.

Geoff

ikolkyo · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:36 am

Now this is a pretty big blow for RR, if GE were to get a PIP out anytime soon it’s a wrap for the T1000

5427247845 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:55 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Now this is a pretty big blow for RR, if GE were to get a PIP out anytime soon it’s a wrap for the T1000

We also know that the Boeing/GE combo on the 787 is very eager to gain some orders.

MIflyer12 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:43 am

qf789 wrote:
This order will take NH to 102 787’s once delivered, this order also takes the 787-10 over 200 orders and the 787 family over 1500 orders

Is the accounting block for deferred production and tooling costs still 1,600 frames? I saw a Leeham reference of 1,600 in a story 11/2019 and didn't find a reference to a count in the latest 10K.

ba319-131 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:51 am

A much needed boost to the 787 line to help maintain production levels though a big blow to loose ANA as a 787 customer, suspect despite the issues and compensation from RR, GE gave them a great deal & NH are a 777-9 customer for GE engines too.

JerseyFlyer · Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:03 pm

They will have 11 -10s powered by GE and 3 by RR 1000TENs. Assuming these frames are operated interchangeably, ANA will have a very good basis for in-service comparison.

artflyer · Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:45 pm

So seems that ANA lost confidence in RR solving the issue by 2022, when first deliveries take place. Speaks volumes.

And makes me wonder what sort of compensations/discounts have been agreed by RR with LH which was free to choose GE for their 787s.

TFawkes · Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:00 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
When was the last 787 order with RR engines?

I can see the 787 becoming GE only very soon. I expect GE to fund a big PIP in exchange for Boeing giving them sole source.

I'm not sure if this would be worthy of being called a 787NEO. It might use the same nacelle so very little certification. RR snuck an entirely new core into the Trent 1000 without most people knowing that was called the TrentTen.

I'd expect the GenX-3B to use all of the GE9X tech. So a slightly smaller and hotter core resulting in a higher pressure ratio and a bypass ratio getting close to 10:1.

I'd estimate a 5% fuel burn reduction which should see the 787-9 match the brochure range of the 280t A350-900. Many posters have mentioned that the 787-10 will become the highest selling model once the brochure range hits 7000nm.

Latest whispers I've heard are the CMC PIP could potentially make the chevrons superfluous in keeping up with regulations on noise, and they can reach the same noise reduction without them, which would bring another 1.5% fuel efficiency.

So 2-3% gain from CMC plus another 1.5% by removing the chevrons. If 4.5% fuel burn improvement is achieved, the 789's range could reach as high as 15,400km without any wing extension or modification.

Momo1435 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:11 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
They will have 11 -10s powered by GE and 3 by RR 1000TENs. Assuming these frames are operated interchangeably, ANA will have a very good basis for in-service comparison.

These new 787-10 will be for domestic runs, the 1st 3 are doing regional flights. So they will perform different missions. But of course they will be able to make a good comparison as some of these missions will be close enough. And they will also get the GE powered 787-9s for the international fleet, they can do an 1 on 1 comparison with those frames.

American 767 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:02 pm

acomp wrote:
Interesting...
ANA selects 787-10 for the domestic 772/773 replacement.

I'm sure that the 777-300ERs are not going anywhere anytime soon, at least not before 2030. The 787-9 is meant to replace the 772, the oldest of which being now 24, and the 787-10 is meant to replace the 773 non ER like you say on domestic routes. I would expect the 772s and 773 nonERs to be phased out by the mid 20s.

TFawkes · Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:51 pm

American 767 wrote:
acomp wrote:
Interesting...
ANA selects 787-10 for the domestic 772/773 replacement.

I'm sure that the 777-300ERs are not going anywhere anytime soon, at least not before 2030. The 787-9 is meant to replace the 772, the oldest of which being now 24, and the 787-10 is meant to replace the 773 non ER like you say on domestic routes. I would expect the 772s and 773 nonERs to be phased out by the mid 20s.

The 787-10 is meant to replace 777-200 non-ER/LR. The -9 replaces the ER and LR for the longest applicable routes, such as LAX-SYD, but not DOH-AKL.

The 777-300/ER used for short(er) routes are extremely dense configs, such as Air Canada's 450 and some Japanese airlines' near-470 person setups, and has no replacement other than a 10-abreast A350 or the 777X.

HM789 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:27 pm

Seems to be a no-brainer to select the GE engines, however with the deliveries starting from 2024 does it seem a bit premature to select an engine at this stage given the likely-hood of RR sorting out their issues by then - especially since they currently own an all RR 787 fleet?

smartplane · Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:48 pm

Another good win for GE.

RR are the most agile of the 3 OEM's when it comes to fixed price engine maintenance contracts, which tends to make them less competitive financially in high cycle operations.

acomp · Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:42 pm

American 767 wrote:
acomp wrote:
Interesting...
ANA selects 787-10 for the domestic 772/773 replacement.

I'm sure that the 777-300ERs are not going anywhere anytime soon, at least not before 2030. The 787-9 is meant to replace the 772, the oldest of which being now 24, and the 787-10 is meant to replace the 773 non ER like you say on domestic routes. I would expect the 772s and 773 nonERs to be phased out by the mid 20s.

I forgot ANA has ordered 777-9.
The 787-10 x11 order is meant to replace 20 domestic 772 (405 seat) and the replacement of 7 domestic 773 (514 seat) might be some older 773ER when new 777-9s enter into service.

Channex757 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:09 pm

HM789 wrote:
Seems to be a no-brainer to select the GE engines, however with the deliveries starting from 2024 does it seem a bit premature to select an engine at this stage given the likely-hood of RR sorting out their issues by then - especially since they currently own an all RR 787 fleet?

Dig into the detail and there's a lessor involved. Which does worry me a little.

If lessors are actively shunning the Trent that becomes worrisome. However, just like when ANZ changed from Rolls to GE for the second batch of 744s it was to preserve future value. Lessors may feel the same.
ANA also want some of these new aircraft for international flying and the GE is better on longer stages.

ANA have showed immense patience, and their early-build Trent 1000 engines have hopefully been sorted out by now. ANA spreading the engine love is hardly shocking, is it?

aemoreira1981 · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:15 pm

I have to wonder how many of these B78Xs will be domestic birds in a maximum configuration. That said, had NH not done a top-up B77W order, some of these B78Xs could have been super-high premium 200 seaters (in 4 classes) for LHR, FRA, and JFK. The range is 6430 nmi at 330 pax, but NH is a high J airline (212-seat B77Ws) and JL even more so.

Stitch · Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:18 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
The Lufthansa order last year was the last big 787 RR order, ALC also ordered a couple for specific customers in 2019. The Emirates order is still unknown.

Emirates have stated they will chose RR power for their 787s if and when they firm their MoU.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Is the accounting block for deferred production and tooling costs still 1,600 frames? I saw a Leeham reference of 1,600 in a story 11/2019 and didn't find a reference to a count in the latest 10K.

Yes. The 787 order book stood at 1485 as of January 2020 so I don't expect Boeing to raise that in the near future, especially with the production rate reducing from Rate 14 to Rate 10 by next year (with a planned increase to Rate 12 in 2023).

randomdude83 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:56 am

Doesn’t the 787 have the ability to interchange engines? Wasn’t that one of its advertised features? If the airline wants, they can swap engine type in 3 days or something like that?

Just thinking maybe ANA has Plans to do that to the 3 78x with the RRs.

Channex757 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:51 am

randomdude83 wrote:
Doesn’t the 787 have the ability to interchange engines? Wasn’t that one of its advertised features? If the airline wants, they can swap engine type in 3 days or something like that?

Just thinking maybe ANA has Plans to do that to the 3 78x with the RRs.

The point of the engine interoperability is primarily to cut costs at Boeing. This means that from the pylon onwards the aircraft systems are the same and the engines need to fit to that.

It saves Boeing a ton of money, just needing to design and test one set of controls and all the rest. The engines just plug into that. The ability to switch engines is a very expensive but possible secondary concern. Boeing just wanted to have one set of wires to save money.

acomp · Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:54 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I have to wonder how many of these B78Xs will be domestic birds in a maximum configuration. That said, had NH not done a top-up B77W order, some of these B78Xs could have been super-high premium 200 seaters (in 4 classes) for LHR, FRA, and JFK. The range is 6430 nmi at 330 pax, but NH is a high J airline (212-seat B77Ws) and JL even more so.

ANA has ordered 20 777-9s (The first 779 is being assembled). The airlines will have enough long-haul 777s.

The official said these 787-10s (11) have been selected to serve domestic routes.
ANA has 3 787-10s with 3-classes international configuration (2 78Xs are in service).
Maybe all these 78Xs will be reconfigured for domestic routes eventually.

william · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:03 am

Isn’t the Ultrafan slated to go the A350 and 787? Would not count RR out of the 787 game.

Momo1435 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:09 am

Stitch wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
The Lufthansa order last year was the last big 787 RR order, ALC also ordered a couple for specific customers in 2019. The Emirates order is still unknown.

Emirates have stated they will chose RR power for their 787s if and when they firm their MoU.

That was for their original mou linked together with the A380 engine deal and without the A350 order. The latest reports are actuallty that they favor GE for the 787, (which might also be linked to the 777X cancellations.) But they haven't signed any engine order yet, at least not that we know of.

Boeing also doesn't list the Lufthansa engine choice yet, even though RR announced it would be them. So maybe not everything is set in stone for that order either.

hOMSaR · Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:11 am

randomdude83 wrote:
Doesn’t the 787 have the ability to interchange engines? Wasn’t that one of its advertised features? If the airline wants, they can swap engine type in 3 days or something like that?

Just thinking maybe ANA has Plans to do that to the 3 78x with the RRs.

No. That was the plan early on, but didn’t make it into the final design.

Scotron12 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:34 am

Momo1435 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
The Lufthansa order last year was the last big 787 RR order, ALC also ordered a couple for specific customers in 2019. The Emirates order is still unknown.

Emirates have stated they will chose RR power for their 787s if and when they firm their MoU.

That was for their original mou linked together with the A380 engine deal and without the A350 order. The latest reports are actuallty that they favor GE for the 787, (which might also be linked to the 777X cancellations.) But they haven't signed any engine order yet, at least not that we know of.

Boeing also doesn't list the Lufthansa engine choice yet, even though RR announced it would be them. So maybe not everything is set in stone for that order either.

Reports? Care to share those reports?

RR would not annouce an order from LH out of thin air, don't you think?

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/b ... ge-2641149

Momo1435 · Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:40 am

Bloomberg reported that EK would most likely go with GE in their article on the 787 deal last November.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... reamliners

As for Lufthansa it is interesting that Boeing doesn't list the engine selection yet, even though it was already confirmed that it would be RR. Usually Boeings order book is pretty up to date with the engine choice. I'm not saying that they have changed their mind, but there could be a bit of doubt because of this.

Revelation · Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:04 pm

TFawkes wrote:
The 777-300/ER used for short(er) routes are extremely dense configs, such as Air Canada's 450 and some Japanese airlines' near-470 person setups, and has no replacement other than a 10-abreast A350 or the 777X.

I thought I read 779 would have exit limit of 440.

acomp wrote:
ANA has ordered 20 777-9s (The first 779 is being assembled).

Yes, the 77x production thread has a picture of it having been rolled out of the factory.

Polot · Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:11 pm

Revelation wrote:
TFawkes wrote:
The 777-300/ER used for short(er) routes are extremely dense configs, such as Air Canada's 450 and some Japanese airlines' near-470 person setups, and has no replacement other than a 10-abreast A350 or the 777X.

I thought I read 779 would have exit limit of 440.

779 exit limit is 475. 440 if plugging the extra exit set leaving the 4 Type A doors.

Theoretically if desired Boeing could give option to convert the Type A doors to A+ doors like Airbus has done, which would bring limit to 515.

cledaybuck · Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:11 pm

Noshow wrote:
Should we be concerned for RR?

On the 787, yes.

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