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aerobus12
Topic Author
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DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:55 am

DY shares are down 27% the last two days on the Oslo Stock Exchange because of urgent worries about the airline's dire liquidity situation, exacerbated by Corona virus fears and Boeing compensation uncertainty. The airline has already been through two emergency offerings the last year.

Talks in Norway are about yet another public offering as the airline is strapped for cash and desperate, and if not, impending bankruptcy.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
User001
Posts: 1030
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:06 am

Lots of airlines shares are down due to the Corona uncertainty. Its not unique to DY
 
leghorn
Posts: 1163
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:27 am

one of the shareholders had reduced their stake recently.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... uces-stake
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 254
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:58 am

User001 wrote:
Lots of airlines shares are down due to the Corona uncertainty. Its not unique to DY


But this is the kind of trigger to trim some of the weaker ones.
 
F27500
Posts: 793
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:01 pm

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Cocky overexpansion early on .. they thought they could fly everywhere, some very oddball routes and make them work .. but they couldn't . . and they got their butts kicked by the MAX debacle as well. I feel for the employees. But i think many saw this coming.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:08 pm

Sooner or later DY will shut down or see its assets sold off piecemeal to the highest bidder, similar to what happened to Air Berlin. The company's questionable legal entity structure, designed to bypass and exploit loopholes in labor and employment laws in many of the countries where it operates, aggressive and in some cases, head scratching expansion, its perennially shaky finances, and a business model dependent on leisure travel at some point will all cause DY to fail. Any shocks to the global aviation market, which COVID-19 threatens, are shocks that DY simply won't be able to withstand.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:09 pm

I’m surprised DY is still around to be honest. It just doesn’t seem like a sustainable concept.

If they do go bust, I hope WN can pick up their 738’s.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:13 pm

So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....
 
BA777FO
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:44 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


It's a bit like Ryanair; they've engaged in questionable, borderline illegal practices, that have propelled the race to the bottom for labour standards among airlines in Europe. European airline T&Cs are well below those in the USA.

I know the retort will be that there'll be downward pressure when x number of employees are looking for a job but better to have those employees looking for jobs at companies offering reasonable T&Cs and working conditions than forcing them lower by flying for an airline with an unsustainable business.
 
MaksFly
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:49 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


It's really interesting though. I would say it is split between two groups, fans of aviation who love seeing a new carrier, and then fans of the aviation industry who completely understand that DY's business model is completely unsustainable and on very shaky financial ground.

Keep in mind, historically airlines have been a very bad investment. It is only after the government bailouts in the United States and the new wave of nickle and dime low cost carriers that airlines started to show an ROI.

With DY however, unlike Spirit or even Frontier 2.0... , the company went really nuts with expansion with a worse financial position.
 
Arion640
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:55 pm

Weren’t they supposed to be fully funded throughout 2020?
1973-2020
 
jfk777
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:57 pm

Norwegian is coming into its busy summer season having cut many losers routes. They stopped flying to Bangkok and Singapore. The Gatwick operation has to make money, all those routes to Rome and Barcelona ?
 
leghorn
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:17 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Norwegian is coming into its busy summer season having cut many losers routes. They stopped flying to Bangkok and Singapore. The Gatwick operation has to make money, all those routes to Rome and Barcelona ?

No airline despite how strong it looks is fully funded if ticket sales dry up.
They're like banks running on 5 or 10% of the cash Customers have deposited with them. Safe as houses until the cash stops flowing.
 
jfk777
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:27 pm

Poor Norwegian has the 737 MAX issue and the 787 RR engine issue to deal with as it struggles to stay in business.
 
MCTSET
Posts: 187
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:29 pm

BA777FO wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


It's a bit like Ryanair; they've engaged in questionable, borderline illegal practices, that have propelled the race to the bottom for labour standards among airlines in Europe. European airline T&Cs are well below those in the USA.

I know the retort will be that there'll be downward pressure when x number of employees are looking for a job but better to have those employees looking for jobs at companies offering reasonable T&Cs and working conditions than forcing them lower by flying for an airline with an unsustainable business.



No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.
 
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Polot
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:29 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Poor Norwegian has the 737 MAX issue and the 787 RR engine issue to deal with as it struggles to stay in business.

737 Max issues have honestly probably helped them. Forced them to exercise some capacity discipline, delayed major capex, and if DY survives they get compensation out of it.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:37 pm

MaksFly wrote:
It is only after the government bailouts in the United States...


That would be a good thread topic some day. Knowledgeable people could clear up some misconceptions for you.
 
BA777FO
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:40 pm

MCTSET wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


It's a bit like Ryanair; they've engaged in questionable, borderline illegal practices, that have propelled the race to the bottom for labour standards among airlines in Europe. European airline T&Cs are well below those in the USA.

I know the retort will be that there'll be downward pressure when x number of employees are looking for a job but better to have those employees looking for jobs at companies offering reasonable T&Cs and working conditions than forcing them lower by flying for an airline with an unsustainable business.



No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


To be fair, almost anyone with a licence and 1,500 hours can get a job in Europe these days. Surely you'd rather have a job that pays well and complies with the spirit of labour laws than a poorly paid one where you're a pawn in a system trying to circumvent labour laws?
 
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Polot
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:44 pm

BA777FO wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

It's a bit like Ryanair; they've engaged in questionable, borderline illegal practices, that have propelled the race to the bottom for labour standards among airlines in Europe. European airline T&Cs are well below those in the USA.

I know the retort will be that there'll be downward pressure when x number of employees are looking for a job but better to have those employees looking for jobs at companies offering reasonable T&Cs and working conditions than forcing them lower by flying for an airline with an unsustainable business.



No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


To be fair, almost anyone with a licence and 1,500 hours can get a job in Europe these days. Surely you'd rather have a job that pays well and complies with the spirit of labour laws than a poorly paid one where you're a pawn in a system trying to circumvent labour laws?

To be fair if it is that easy to get a new job and apparently one has no issues starting over there is nothing preventing a DY pilot from leaving.
 
BA777FO
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:47 pm

Polot wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
MCTSET wrote:


No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


To be fair, almost anyone with a licence and 1,500 hours can get a job in Europe these days. Surely you'd rather have a job that pays well and complies with the spirit of labour laws than a poorly paid one where you're a pawn in a system trying to circumvent labour laws?

To be fair if it is that easy to get a new job and apparently one has no issues starting over there is nothing preventing a DY pilot from leaving.


Many of them are...
 
MaksFly
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
It is only after the government bailouts in the United States...


That would be a good thread topic some day. Knowledgeable people could clear up some misconceptions for you.


Which would be what?

While I do not cover the airline industry, I am a financial analyst... and airlines have historically, up until the last 8 years or so, been crappy investments.
 
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Polot
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:57 pm

MaksFly wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
It is only after the government bailouts in the United States...


That would be a good thread topic some day. Knowledgeable people could clear up some misconceptions for you.


Which would be what?

While I do not cover the airline industry, I am a financial analyst... and airlines have historically, up until the last 8 years or so, been crappy investments.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy is not a government bailout. Obviously the mechanism is coded into US law but the government is not the one providing them money, or forcing anyone to.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:08 pm

Good, this airline has always been bad for aviation employees world wide.
 
CALMSP
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:19 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Good, this airline has always been bad for aviation employees world wide.


how so? increased opportunities for people to get involved with aviation is somehow a bad thing?
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 157
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:39 pm

I have spoken to some people who work there, and have worked there before.

DY used to be the "little guy" or "challenger" to the other large European airlines. The attitude from the management used to be that "we're all pulling together to make this a great company"

And things were nice until started to outsource, use recruiting agencies etc. Now there are disputes whether pilots are employed by Norwegian or OSM or someone else.

DY themselves have said that cash flow is a problem. They have expanded too quickly. They are now shutting down long-haul routes from ARN and CPH, although they want to expand from MAD, AMS and CDG. They have terminated their Argentinian plans.

Add to this the 737MAX problems, RR engine troubles plus some serious negative media coverage in the last few days due to the sandstorms at Gran Canaria (although this is not their fault and other airlines are affected as well), they sure have a lot on their plate.

They keep stressing that they need to be more profitable. BUT a major problem for DY is that if you look away from Scandinavia, their route network is primarily focused on destinations of the leisure travelers, which in turn often means lower yields.

I wonder how much longer they can keep this up. On the other hand, this discussion has already been going on for quite a while.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:41 pm

CALMSP wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Good, this airline has always been bad for aviation employees world wide.


how so? increased opportunities for people to get involved with aviation is somehow a bad thing?


Because when they fold the void will be filled with more reputable companies. Did you know that Norwegian employees don't even have pass riding benefits on any other carriers? I think thats something unique to just them.

Let this pyramid scheme die so the employees can move onto real airlines that value them.


OSL777FLYER wrote:
I have spoken to some people who work there, and have worked there before.

DY used to be the "little guy" or "challenger" to the other large European airlines. The attitude from the management used to be that "we're all pulling together to make this a great company"


I roll my eyes every time I hear something like that. Its a trick to justify lower wages and poorer work rules. Its not the employees problem or burden to accept less than industry standard wages and benefits. Please let them save those sayings for their investor meetings, "shareholders, please accept smaller returns because we are the little guy". See how that goes.

p.s. look for Breeze Airways to roll out the "we are the little guy/disrupted/challenger, please come work at us for less" lingo real soon.
Last edited by CobaltScar on Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:41 pm

aerobus12 wrote:
DY shares are down 27% the last two days on the Oslo Stock Exchange because of urgent worries about the airline's dire liquidity situation, exacerbated by Corona virus fears and Boeing compensation uncertainty. The airline has already been through two emergency offerings the last year.


There's really no single financial metric that points to a firm's demise (liquidation, restructuring, administration...)

Change in stock price really isn't a good indicator of prospects for longevity. There are investors, and there are momentum traders... and people all along the spectrum. They're not all looking for the same thing.

Volume of losses isn't an indicator. Look at how easy it was for Boeing to borrow in the market. https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/boe ... ans-report

Low or negative margins isn't an indicator. You just need some deep-pocketed investors with patience who believe in the business plan. Look at how much Amazon and Tesla lost in early days.

Now, if the decline in stock price is reflective of the perceived fragility of DY in the face of an exogenous shock (sharply rising fuel prices, rejection of its other-country labor model, corona virus) that's a little something else.
 
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enilria
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:42 pm

User001 wrote:
Lots of airlines shares are down due to the Corona uncertainty. Its not unique to DY

Spirit's stock was down a ton yesterday and they don't even have flights out of the Americas. DY is not in good shape at this point, but Coronavirus is bad news for all airlines.
 
a350lover
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:52 pm

Am I the only one who thinks that if DY cancelled all their long haul operation thing could get (some/much) better?

They had virtually no losses in their balance sheet up until 2017, year when their long haul network gets really "huge".
 
a350lover
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:54 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
They are now shutting down long-haul routes from ARN and CPH, although they want to expand from MAD, AMS and CDG.


Expanding in MAD, AMS or CDG? Nothing new that I can think of in MAD or AMS I believe...
 
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vhtje
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:01 pm

Apparently DY are about to start accepting cryptocurrency for tickets:

https://bitnewstoday.com/news/norwegian-air-to-introduce-crypto-payments-for-tickets/

On the surface, the move reeks of desperation, but the Norwegian Block Exchange (their crypto currency exchange) and AY actually have Björn Kjos in common - he was the founder and former CEO of AY, and he participated in the foundation of the Norwegian Block Exchange in 2018.

I wonder how it will work? It seems an unorthodox move.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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zkojq
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:15 pm

Somewhere out there is a parallel universe where Norwegian didn't buy lots of 787s and instead spent the last seven years making plenty of money in their relatively comfortable niche of the European LCC market.

If they do go under it will be a real shame. Even if they only bought a few 787s and based them strictly in Scandinavia they'd probably be doing ok.

Very bad news for HiFly and Wamos if they do go bankrupt.

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.

MaksFly wrote:
, and then fans of the aviation industry who completely understand that DY's business model is completely unsustainable


I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:

MCTSET wrote:
No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.

Polot wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Poor Norwegian has the 737 MAX issue and the 787 RR engine issue to deal with as it struggles to stay in business.

737 Max issues have honestly probably helped them. Forced them to exercise some capacity discipline, delayed major capex, and if DY survives they get compensation out of it.


Yes paying the leases of eighteen aircraft you can't operate is great for the bottom-line of a company short on cash.

CobaltScar wrote:
Because when they fold the void will be filled with more reputable companies.


What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?
First to fly the 787-9
 
IADCA
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:16 pm

Polot wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That would be a good thread topic some day. Knowledgeable people could clear up some misconceptions for you.


Which would be what?

While I do not cover the airline industry, I am a financial analyst... and airlines have historically, up until the last 8 years or so, been crappy investments.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy is not a government bailout. Obviously the mechanism is coded into US law but the government is not the one providing them money, or forcing anyone to.


I'm not sure the poster is referring to Chapter 11, but to the post-9/11 direct monetary and loan guarantees totaling about $15 billion, which absolutely did include the government directly providing money to the airlines. It also showed that the government was willing to support the airlines financially, which then helped their credit-worthiness in the long term (which, as you probably recall, was something very much in doubt 15-20 years ago).

I don't think the argument is a winner - the timing doesn't work, for one. Airlines only became profitable after the most recent wave of consolidation. Consolidation, fuel costs abating from the 2008 spike, and making ancillary fees stick have done a lot more to create the current situation than the 9/11 bailout did.
 
tphuang
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:35 pm

vhtje wrote:
Apparently DY are about to start accepting cryptocurrency for tickets:

https://bitnewstoday.com/news/norwegian-air-to-introduce-crypto-payments-for-tickets/

On the surface, the move reeks of desperation, but the Norwegian Block Exchange (their crypto currency exchange) and AY actually have Björn Kjos in common - he was the founder and former CEO of AY, and he participated in the foundation of the Norwegian Block Exchange in 2018.

I wonder how it will work? It seems an unorthodox move.


Great, now they are speculating on crypto market? That's a recipe for disaster.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:51 pm

DY await some relief money from Boeing... wish also ran out of money... tic tac..tic tac..
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Exeiowa
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:40 pm

Companies cease to exist when they run out of other peoples money. I think they might be on the downward spiral at this point.
 
BA777FO
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:42 pm

zkojq wrote:
Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.


Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.

zkojq wrote:
I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:


Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations. The USA has undergone the kind of consolidation Europe needs a decade earlier - you can fly from end of Europe to the other for less than an intra-Texas flight. That level of pricing is unsustainable.

zkojq wrote:
:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.


Not at all. I've flown with many ex-Norwegian pilots, plus lots of ex-Flybe pilots that see the writing on the wall there too. They all saw it as a method of hour building and a stepping stone onto bigger things anyway. Very few of them had anything good to say about the airline and were getting out as soon as they could. Of course it's a shame when someone loses their job, but ultimately, as with Monarch, Thomas Cook, Wow Air etc they'll all go on to something better.

zkojq wrote:
What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:49 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
vhtje wrote:
Apparently DY are about to start accepting cryptocurrency for tickets:

https://bitnewstoday.com/news/norwegian-air-to-introduce-crypto-payments-for-tickets/

On the surface, the move reeks of desperation, but the Norwegian Block Exchange (their crypto currency exchange) and AY actually have Björn Kjos in common - he was the founder and former CEO of AY, and he participated in the foundation of the Norwegian Block Exchange in 2018.

I wonder how it will work? It seems an unorthodox move.


AY is Finnair.

What does Finnair have to do with this?

You say that Bjorn Kjos was the founder of AY?!

AY (Finnair) was founded In 1923. He must be REALLY old!
 
Miamiairport
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:52 pm

It seems as though the long haul ULCC airline, or some version thereof, doesn't do well. Seems as though they can only fill planes on fares that will never make a penny and ancillary revenue can't make up the difference. As the US domestic airline industry has shown zombie airlines can fly for quite awhile. Back in the 00s vendors helped keep certain airlines in business through financing and payment delays, presumably as they had lots to lose if a major airline went out of business. Only capacity cut backs and the DOJ allowing mega airline mergers kept the industry going. Also during the bleak times the ULCC model hadn't been developed yet. I'm not sure if UA, US, and NW would have survived if Spirit and Frontier were around in their current form.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:53 pm

They are probably wishing they ordered more 737 MAX, because then they could just live off the compensation payments for the next two years.
 
VSMUT
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:06 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
vhtje wrote:
Apparently DY are about to start accepting cryptocurrency for tickets:

https://bitnewstoday.com/news/norwegian-air-to-introduce-crypto-payments-for-tickets/

On the surface, the move reeks of desperation, but the Norwegian Block Exchange (their crypto currency exchange) and AY actually have Björn Kjos in common - he was the founder and former CEO of AY, and he participated in the foundation of the Norwegian Block Exchange in 2018.

I wonder how it will work? It seems an unorthodox move.


AY is Finnair.

What does Finnair have to do with this?

You say that Bjorn Kjos was the founder of AY?!

AY (Finnair) was founded In 1923. He must be REALLY old!


Obviously a typo.
 
flyjay123
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:42 pm

What stood out most for me flying with Norwigan, was the satisfaction the CC expressed with the company. Crews jumping ship from BA (mixed fleet), VS and of course X ZB crews. All said the salary was better than their previous employers!
As a consumer - I was thrilled with the value for money!
 
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vhtje
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
vhtje wrote:
AY


AY is Finnair.

What does Finnair have to do with this?

You say that Bjorn Kjos was the founder of AY?!

AY (Finnair) was founded In 1923. He must be REALLY old!


Obviously a typo.


Sorry, yes, it was a typo I didn't pick up. I meant DY. Apologies.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Arion640
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:05 pm

BA777FO wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.


Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.

zkojq wrote:
I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:


Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations. The USA has undergone the kind of consolidation Europe needs a decade earlier - you can fly from end of Europe to the other for less than an intra-Texas flight. That level of pricing is unsustainable.

zkojq wrote:
:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.


Not at all. I've flown with many ex-Norwegian pilots, plus lots of ex-Flybe pilots that see the writing on the wall there too. They all saw it as a method of hour building and a stepping stone onto bigger things anyway. Very few of them had anything good to say about the airline and were getting out as soon as they could. Of course it's a shame when someone loses their job, but ultimately, as with Monarch, Thomas Cook, Wow Air etc they'll all go on to something better.

zkojq wrote:
What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!


The European competition is a brilliant thing and should be championed. We don’t need high fare airlines like IAG, they should be forced to compete.
1973-2020
 
BA777FO
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.


Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.

zkojq wrote:
I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:


Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations. The USA has undergone the kind of consolidation Europe needs a decade earlier - you can fly from end of Europe to the other for less than an intra-Texas flight. That level of pricing is unsustainable.

zkojq wrote:
:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.


Not at all. I've flown with many ex-Norwegian pilots, plus lots of ex-Flybe pilots that see the writing on the wall there too. They all saw it as a method of hour building and a stepping stone onto bigger things anyway. Very few of them had anything good to say about the airline and were getting out as soon as they could. Of course it's a shame when someone loses their job, but ultimately, as with Monarch, Thomas Cook, Wow Air etc they'll all go on to something better.

zkojq wrote:
What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!


The European competition is a brilliant thing and should be championed. We don’t need high fare airlines like IAG, they should be forced to compete.


All those airlines going bust and stranding hundreds of thousands of people away from home costing taxpayers hundreds of millions to repatriate is a good thing?

IAG forced to compete?? Their biggest and mosy profitable airline is based in the most competitive aviation market in the world.
 
kaitak
Posts: 9816
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:21 pm

They are competing; Aer Lingus (part of IAG) has been competing with FR on its home turf for 30+ years, but the consumers have choice; some would rather pay a little more and have a nicer travel experience - not have people selling things every minute of the flight. That's the market; that's choice. Airlines have to position themselves (as indeed, does every business in every sector) and customers have the choice. The problem for airlines arises when they try to be all things to all people. This is why Norwegian is having serious problems.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:00 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.



Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations. The USA has undergone the kind of consolidation Europe needs a decade earlier - you can fly from end of Europe to the other for less than an intra-Texas flight. That level of pricing is unsustainable.



Not at all. I've flown with many ex-Norwegian pilots, plus lots of ex-Flybe pilots that see the writing on the wall there too. They all saw it as a method of hour building and a stepping stone onto bigger things anyway. Very few of them had anything good to say about the airline and were getting out as soon as they could. Of course it's a shame when someone loses their job, but ultimately, as with Monarch, Thomas Cook, Wow Air etc they'll all go on to something better.



There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!


The European competition is a brilliant thing and should be championed. We don’t need high fare airlines like IAG, they should be forced to compete.


All those airlines going bust and stranding hundreds of thousands of people away from home costing taxpayers hundreds of millions to repatriate is a good thing?

IAG forced to compete?? Their biggest and mosy profitable airline is based in the most competitive aviation market in the world.


It’s better than hard working families not being able to afford a holiday. Just look how airfares have come down in the last 20 years.

Really? They were in one of the cosiest the last time i checked.
1973-2020
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2919
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:07 pm

At this point this seems like it’s just a running joke. Every month there seems to be a new article saying the end is near for DY for like the last 3 years. I’ll believe it when I see it.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 pm

What exactly is the point of this thread? The OP doesn’t even quote a source, and the only fact mentioned is with regard to the share price which, as others have mentioned, isn’t unique to Norwegian.

BA777FO wrote:

zkojq wrote:
:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.


Not at all. I've flown with many ex-Norwegian pilots, plus lots of ex-Flybe pilots that see the writing on the wall there too. They all saw it as a method of hour building and a stepping stone onto bigger things anyway. Very few of them had anything good to say about the airline and were getting out as soon as they could. Of course it's a shame when someone loses their job, but ultimately, as with Monarch, Thomas Cook, Wow Air etc they'll all go on to something better.


Thankfully, many of those pilots are now also leaving BA to move on to better things. I know as many people who work(ed) for BA as I do Norwegian, and believe me, it’s not those at Norwegian that are running for the door right now.

As a self-appointed champion of labour relations, how do you explain the pathetic cabin crew contracts at your own airline? Cabin crew at Norwegian, both short and long haul, are paid more than both BA mixed fleet and LGW base. How do you explain recruiting over 200 experienced cabin crew on “world class” contracts, making them wait a year for a start date and then a month before starting telling them they’ll be paid £7k less and have to accept a normal mixed fleet contract? I’m sure that made them really think they’re “moving onto something better”. Or, like most BA pilots I come across, do you not care about those on the other side of the FD door?

Once again, you’re blaming Norwegian for your own airline’s declining T&Cs, as well as those declining across the industry. The simple fact is that your union’s embarrassing capitulation last year, which set a precedent for all airlines that the pilot workforce will crumble if you apply enough pressure, has done far more damage to the state of the industry than Norwegian ever have.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4175
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:39 am

BA777FO wrote:

Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.

Short haul, where I flew them, Norwegian makes money. Unlike the EU3 whose short haul ops are subsidised by their long haul ops (ie the opposite of Norwegian).

BA777FO wrote:
Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations.

So why did IAG start LEVEL then? If your IAG wages are too low, you should direct your complaints to IAG's management for spending hundreds of millions creating LEVEL long haul...and then, having decided that they hadn't flushed away enough money, decided to start LEVEL Anisec and getting into a pissing match with Lufthansa Group, Wizzair and Ryanair/Lauda at Vienna. :roll:

BA777FO wrote:
There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!


But plenty of shorthaul ones....

BA777FO wrote:
IAG forced to compete?? Their biggest and mosy profitable airline is based in the most competitive aviation market in the world.


With the biggest and most profitable airline protected thanks to a slot oligopoly!

Arion640 wrote:
It’s better than hard working families not being able to afford a holiday. Just look how airfares have come down in the last 20 years.

:checkmark:
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