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PavlovsDog
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:25 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
With Japan closing all of the their schools, Trump putting his head in the sand hoping for the best, and the virus popping up all over the place the demise of Norwegian will be the tip of the iceberg.

It's really not a question of if now but when. It'll be a shame.

Norwegian has a lot of great people and their new CEO Jacob Schram and new COO Marty St. George are fantastic leaders. Norway and the Scandinavian markets in general need a second strong competitor to SAS so a scaled down version of Norwegian will undoubtedly emerge from the ashes, unencumbered by Bjørn Kjos's insane growth plans.

Norwegian certainly won't be the only airline which won't survive this crisis. I imagine especially Boeing is going to have some major challenges as well with lawsuits and compensation.


Getting into the long haul business was a mistake. They should’ve focused on short and medium haul.
Agreed but not getting rid of Bjørn Kjos earlier is the root cause. They were doing fine until he went crazy and bought both Airbus 320s and 737 maxes.

I'd like to Norwegian 2.0 with a fleet centered around the 321 neo LRs and 320s (already on order) which would be ideal for making money in its core markets including thinner long-haul. If St. George sticks around I can see them going upmarket and having a mint like product as well. Maybe JV with AirBaltic (who also went crazy and ordered too many planes) who can serve smaller markets with their lower cost base and Norwegian with the 32xs on the thicker routes.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 690
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:43 pm

PavlovsDog wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
With Japan closing all of the their schools, Trump putting his head in the sand hoping for the best, and the virus popping up all over the place the demise of Norwegian will be the tip of the iceberg.

It's really not a question of if now but when. It'll be a shame.

Norwegian has a lot of great people and their new CEO Jacob Schram and new COO Marty St. George are fantastic leaders. Norway and the Scandinavian markets in general need a second strong competitor to SAS so a scaled down version of Norwegian will undoubtedly emerge from the ashes, unencumbered by Bjørn Kjos's insane growth plans.

Norwegian certainly won't be the only airline which won't survive this crisis. I imagine especially Boeing is going to have some major challenges as well with lawsuits and compensation.


Getting into the long haul business was a mistake. They should’ve focused on short and medium haul.
Agreed but not getting rid of Bjørn Kjos earlier is the root cause. They were doing fine until he went crazy and bought both Airbus 320s and 737 maxes.

I'd like to Norwegian 2.0 with a fleet centered around the 321 neo LRs and 320s (already on order) which would be ideal for making money in its core markets including thinner long-haul. If St. George sticks around I can see them going upmarket and having a mint like product as well. Maybe JV with AirBaltic (who also went crazy and ordered too many planes) who can serve smaller markets with their lower cost base and Norwegian with the 32xs on the thicker routes.


Agreed, and his plan to buy densely-configured 787’s for long haul were a big factor as well. That was a flawed plan from the start.

I like that new plan. Much more sustainable.
 
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vhtje
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:47 pm

More bad news...

RTE Ireland wrote:
Budget carrier Norwegian Air said it still expects to return to profit this year, but it failed to reassure investors who sent its share price tumbling again on concerns the coronavirus would hurt passenger numbers.

Shares in the airline, which has had to raise cash from its owners to survive, slumped 15.9% to an 11-year low earlier today.

They have now lost 46% since the start of this week as the coronavirus has spread around the world.


Yikes.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0227/1117965-norwegian-air-fails-to-reassure-investors-on-profits/
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
aerobus12
Topic Author
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:49 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:51 pm

The stock has crashed a whopping 22,5% further down so far today.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12631
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:27 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
aerobus12 wrote:
DY shares are down 27% the last two days on the Oslo Stock Exchange because of urgent worries about the airline's dire liquidity situation, exacerbated by Corona virus fears and Boeing compensation uncertainty. The airline has already been through two emergency offerings the last year.

Talks in Norway are about yet another public offering as the airline is strapped for cash and desperate, and if not, impending bankruptcy.


I'd be so happy if they went tits up, they are an awful airline, I dread flying them, unfortunately the company I work for has them as the preferred airline partner. In an ideal world another good airline would take over Norwegians domestic Norwegian network, someone like KLM would fit the bill.


But if DY pulls out of Scandinavia shorthaul, who is going to keep SAS prices at a bearable level. With no competition we will all be on the train!


The closest train to where I live is about 70km and 1 ferry away, so that's not happening. I'm not at all worried, Norway has a lucrative domestic market, someone would step in to fill the gap left by the demise of Norwegian pretty quickly. Air Baltic has all those A220's on order or someone like KLM who are already heavily invested in Norway could fill the gap.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12631
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:29 pm

aerobus12 wrote:
The stock has crashed a whopping 22,5% further down so far today.


Fingers crossed they are gone toot sweet!
 
Asiaflyer
Posts: 908
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:50 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:45 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
They have lost half of their market value in 15 days. Will they survive another two weeks?

February/March is usually a prime time of the year for bankruptcies.

It has actually lost half of the market value in only 4 days now as the share closed around 36 NOK last friday and is trading below 18 NOK today.
Scary how fast values can be viped out.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:11 pm

zkojq wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Of course it waa good value - they consistently sell fares at levels that doesn't make them any money. That's why it's unsustainable. If I sold $20 bills for $10 I bet everyone I did business with would think I provided good value for money too.

Short haul, where I flew them, Norwegian makes money. Unlike the EU3 whose short haul ops are subsidised by their long haul ops (ie the opposite of Norwegian).

BA777FO wrote:
Short term for longer term gain. Europe has far too many carriers and certainly far too many weak carriers. The unsustainability threatens livlihoods and creates havoc when these airlines go bust costing taxpayers millions in repatriations.

So why did IAG start LEVEL then? If your IAG wages are too low, you should direct your complaints to IAG's management for spending hundreds of millions creating LEVEL long haul...and then, having decided that they hadn't flushed away enough money, decided to start LEVEL Anisec and getting into a pissing match with Lufthansa Group, Wizzair and Ryanair/Lauda at Vienna. :roll:

BA777FO wrote:
There are no mid-to-large sized scheduled longhaul operators that offer worse T&Cs than Norwegian in Europe!


But plenty of shorthaul ones....

BA777FO wrote:
IAG forced to compete?? Their biggest and mosy profitable airline is based in the most competitive aviation market in the world.


With the biggest and most profitable airline protected thanks to a slot oligopoly!

Arion640 wrote:
It’s better than hard working families not being able to afford a holiday. Just look how airfares have come down in the last 20 years.

:checkmark:


For British Airways the shorthaul operations are absolutely NOT "subsidised" by BA's longhaul operations.
Do you have evidence for Iberia and Aer Lingus shorthaul operations being "subsidised" by their longhaul operations?
Do you have evidence for AF/KL and Lufthansa Groups shorthaul operations being subsidised by their longhaul operatrions?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:27 pm

zkojq wrote:
Somewhere out there is a parallel universe where Norwegian didn't buy lots of 787s and instead spent the last seven years making plenty of money in their relatively comfortable niche of the European LCC market.

If they do go under it will be a real shame. Even if they only bought a few 787s and based them strictly in Scandinavia they'd probably be doing ok.

Very bad news for HiFly and Wamos if they do go bankrupt.

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.

MaksFly wrote:
, and then fans of the aviation industry who completely understand that DY's business model is completely unsustainable


I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:

MCTSET wrote:
No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.

Polot wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Poor Norwegian has the 737 MAX issue and the 787 RR engine issue to deal with as it struggles to stay in business.

737 Max issues have honestly probably helped them. Forced them to exercise some capacity discipline, delayed major capex, and if DY survives they get compensation out of it.


Yes paying the leases of eighteen aircraft you can't operate is great for the bottom-line of a company short on cash.

CobaltScar wrote:
Because when they fold the void will be filled with more reputable companies.


What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


Are you sure that Norwegian is paying the leases of eighteen aircraft they can't operate?
At my company, when an new build aircraft had been quality inspected, test flown and formally accepted it was then paid for and handed over.
In many cases aircraft were put on a Finance Lease which involved immediately selling it to the Finance House. When the payment had gone from my airline to the manufacturer (say Boeing) and then from the Finance company to the airline, the aircraft was ready to go. The paperwork was completed, and the shiny new airliner was flown away.
I'd be surprised if Norwegian is paying for 737 MAXs that it has not accepted.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Wf789
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:35 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Somewhere out there is a parallel universe where Norwegian didn't buy lots of 787s and instead spent the last seven years making plenty of money in their relatively comfortable niche of the European LCC market.

If they do go under it will be a real shame. Even if they only bought a few 787s and based them strictly in Scandinavia they'd probably be doing ok.

Very bad news for HiFly and Wamos if they do go bankrupt.

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.

MaksFly wrote:
, and then fans of the aviation industry who completely understand that DY's business model is completely unsustainable


I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:

MCTSET wrote:
No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.

Polot wrote:
737 Max issues have honestly probably helped them. Forced them to exercise some capacity discipline, delayed major capex, and if DY survives they get compensation out of it.


Yes paying the leases of eighteen aircraft you can't operate is great for the bottom-line of a company short on cash.

CobaltScar wrote:
Because when they fold the void will be filled with more reputable companies.


What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


Are you sure that Norwegian is paying the leases of eighteen aircraft they can't operate?
At my company, when an new build aircraft had been quality inspected, test flown and formally accepted it was then paid for and handed over.
In many cases aircraft were put on a Finance Lease which involved immediately selling it to the Finance House. When the payment had gone from my airline to the manufacturer (say Boeing) and then from the Finance company to the airline, the aircraft was ready to go. The paperwork was completed, and the shiny new airliner was flown away.
I'd be surprised if Norwegian is paying for 737 MAXs that it has not accepted.


They own most of them themself. No lease on those planes, but some nice capital cost...
 
BealineV953
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:39 pm

Wf789 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Somewhere out there is a parallel universe where Norwegian didn't buy lots of 787s and instead spent the last seven years making plenty of money in their relatively comfortable niche of the European LCC market.

If they do go under it will be a real shame. Even if they only bought a few 787s and based them strictly in Scandinavia they'd probably be doing ok.

Very bad news for HiFly and Wamos if they do go bankrupt.



Agreed. Not my favourite airline but I liked them - efficient service and good value for money. Definitely my favourite European LCC.



I find it weird when entrenched interests of the EU3 moan about DY being "unsustainable" yet then decide to flush lots of money away by launching LEVEL (and to a lesser extent Eurowings Long Haul) to try and compete them out of existence - and trash everybody's yields at the same time. :spin:



:checkmark: I'm sure that the user you're replying too wouldn't say what he did so casually if his employer was the one right on the edge financially. It's easy to be indifferent to another company's struggles when it's not your paycheck on the line.



Yes paying the leases of eighteen aircraft you can't operate is great for the bottom-line of a company short on cash.



What makes you think that the carriers that fill the void won't be more cut-throat and offer their employees less benifits?


Are you sure that Norwegian is paying the leases of eighteen aircraft they can't operate?
At my company, when an new build aircraft had been quality inspected, test flown and formally accepted it was then paid for and handed over.
In many cases aircraft were put on a Finance Lease which involved immediately selling it to the Finance House. When the payment had gone from my airline to the manufacturer (say Boeing) and then from the Finance company to the airline, the aircraft was ready to go. The paperwork was completed, and the shiny new airliner was flown away.
I'd be surprised if Norwegian is paying for 737 MAXs that it has not accepted.


They own most of them themself. No lease on those planes, but some nice capital cost...


At my company, we do not pay for an aircraft until it has been formally accepted.
Surely that is the same for Norwegian?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 721
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:08 pm

I have no knowledge of Norwegian’s financials, but during times like these, ANY high profile company like Norwegian or any undercapitalized company with high visibility WILL be in the crosshairs of immense scrutiny until norms return to travel patterns.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Polot
Posts: 10154
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:23 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Wf789 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Are you sure that Norwegian is paying the leases of eighteen aircraft they can't operate?
At my company, when an new build aircraft had been quality inspected, test flown and formally accepted it was then paid for and handed over.
In many cases aircraft were put on a Finance Lease which involved immediately selling it to the Finance House. When the payment had gone from my airline to the manufacturer (say Boeing) and then from the Finance company to the airline, the aircraft was ready to go. The paperwork was completed, and the shiny new airliner was flown away.
I'd be surprised if Norwegian is paying for 737 MAXs that it has not accepted.


They own most of them themself. No lease on those planes, but some nice capital cost...


At my company, we do not pay for an aircraft until it has been formally accepted.
Surely that is the same for Norwegian?

Norwegian has Maxes that were delivered and in use before the grounding.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:44 pm

Polot wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Wf789 wrote:

They own most of them themself. No lease on those planes, but some nice capital cost...


At my company, we do not pay for an aircraft until it has been formally accepted.
Surely that is the same for Norwegian?

Norwegian has Maxes that were delivered and in use before the grounding.


Aha, yes. Thank you, makes sense.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Detroit313
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:11 pm

Good thing they did not accept IAG's offer. They will just disappear on their own and get out of the way.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1761
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:38 pm

The amount of people rooting for their demise is pretty shocking to me, am I missing something?
@DadCelo
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:49 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
The amount of people rooting for their demise is pretty shocking to me, am I missing something?


They get a lot of hate because they undermine the airline industry with playing the flag of convenience game. Also they are not airline labor friendly and do not even give their employees flight benefits on other airlines.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18510
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:04 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
The amount of people rooting for their demise is pretty shocking to me, am I missing something?


They get a lot of hate because they undermine the airline industry with playing the flag of convenience game. Also they are not airline labor friendly and do not even give their employees flight benefits on other airlines.


Then the airlines of many of those complaining about Norwegian send their planes to places like China, Indonesia, Singapore, etc for heavy maintenance. :spin:

Norwegian's customers seem to be pretty happy with the airline and I've really enjoyed my flights with them.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:17 pm

I don’t know if they survive this crises. But, I think DY needs a miracle to survive in the long-term.

They gambled, but the tides where against them. If you are in the middle of your growth and your 787’s are grounded because of the RR issue and your 737’s because of the MAX problems you’re screwed.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
The amount of people rooting for their demise is pretty shocking to me, am I missing something?


They get a lot of hate because they undermine the airline industry with playing the flag of convenience game. Also they are not airline labor friendly and do not even give their employees flight benefits on other airlines.


Then the airlines of many of those complaining about Norwegian send their planes to places like China, Indonesia, Singapore, etc for heavy maintenance. :spin:

Norwegian's customers seem to be pretty happy with the airline and I've really enjoyed my flights with them.


I'm sure, so long as they keep offering tickets at below costs. That game is fast catching up with them. RIP, better them than the airlines they tried to under cut.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1303
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:21 pm

Why so many negative posters, keen to see the demise of DY? And the A380? And Airbus? Startups?

If we had time travel, would the same group have been wishing the demise of Laker? And supporting the dirty tactics of the legacies?

Innovators, brave entrepreneurs and financiers, have helped create the frequency and pricing of flights most on here enjoy.

If those anti-Heathrow runway 3 should be banned from flying, surely the same should apply to those keen to see the demise of DY - ban from discounted fares?
 
RexBanner
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:51 am

Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees. If we’re going in the climate change direction then why the hell should DY be allowed to add needless capacity and emissions on routes that are already well catered for?
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2578
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:06 am

Norwegian is disliked by a lot of airline employees because it is s threat to T&C's. The American Airlines and Employees/Unions had not seen a direct competition like Norwegian before, either from fares, costs or T&C's. Prior to Norwegian getting 787s it was confined to the likes of Ryanair, Charter or other European LCC's which could not compete directly in the US due to cabotage laws. Both the corporate suites and employees dislike Norwegian as it threatens T&C AND bonuses. Hence the posting here.

Norwegian seem like a decent enough airline the one time I flew with them. Their transatlantic model on the MAX was interesting, but flawed. They never managed to get the utilisation on their transatlantic MAX/787 any higher than the traditional airlines, the lease fees must have been the same, or more than the US3 or EU3 might pay, other than employee T&C's and the lack of IFE on the MAX, the low-cost was just low fares.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12631
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:10 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Good thing they did not accept IAG's offer. They will just disappear on their own and get out of the way.


I hope that's sarcasm, I think not accepting IAG's offer was the biggest mistake they ever made!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12631
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:12 am

scbriml wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
The amount of people rooting for their demise is pretty shocking to me, am I missing something?


They get a lot of hate because they undermine the airline industry with playing the flag of convenience game. Also they are not airline labor friendly and do not even give their employees flight benefits on other airlines.


Then the airlines of many of those complaining about Norwegian send their planes to places like China, Indonesia, Singapore, etc for heavy maintenance. :spin:

Norwegian's customers seem to be pretty happy with the airline and I've really enjoyed my flights with them.


I'm obligated to fly Norwegian unless I'm going somewhere they don't fly, they are an awful airline.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3742
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:07 am

scbriml wrote:
Norwegian's customers seem to be pretty happy with the airline and I've really enjoyed my flights with them.


I only had 2 flights with them, positioning on duty in uniform. They treated me like one of their own, really nice crews. Never had the same experience on SAS, Lufthansa, BA, Ryanair or EasyJet. In my view, they are completely okay.

I have a number of friends who fly for them too, they all love it. Conditions are way better than what they could get anywhere else at the time.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18510
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:21 am

RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees.


Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees.


Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2121
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:09 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees.


Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.


And Argentina, U.K..
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 721
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:47 pm

smartplane wrote:
Why so many negative posters, keen to see the demise of DY? And the A380? And Airbus? Startups? .....

Innovators, brave entrepreneurs and financiers, have helped create the frequency and pricing of flights most on here enjoy.


Business models that are unsustainable but can undermine and cause irreparable damage to employees livelihoods of employee groups that have worked hard in their careers to earn and partake in the benefits a mature company provides is the reason businesses like Norwegian are frowned upon.

In the US, basically legacy carriers like Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA etc... which provided GOOD HEALTH insurance coverage, and retirements disappeared. The benefits of jobs at other legacies were reduced and only exacerbated by 9/11.

Innovation is good but lasting innovation has the ability to create loss of masses numbers of good paying jobs resulting in only the very top elitist of the elite tier level of 5 or 6 legacy carriers receiving generous pay, while all the rest eek out a living.

12 legacy carriers and a 200 plus unsustainable start ups also gave and provide far greater numbers of the elitist of the elite TEMPORARY jobs than 5 or 6 dominant airlines provide.

Stagnant PROTECTED socialized industries generally fail to adapt, and companies like Norwegian keep others and the rest on their toes figuring out ways to counter but
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 721
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:49 pm

... to counter practices damaging to livelihoods, like flags of convenience.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4669
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:27 pm

Why did they move so many 737s onto the Swedish register of late? Many out of Ireland as well as Norway.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:41 pm

The main innovation in industry seems to have been how to send a smaller percentage to their front line employees relative to the other pots of allocation.
 
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SQ789
Posts: 893
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:05 am

LN-NIA is now withdrawn and it’s the latest fleet to go. DY is reducing fleet lately. Which base is DY closing next?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8210
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:22 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees.


Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.


Norway? Flag of convenience? It's one of the most expensive places in the world to do business :roll:

The Norway based crew on legacy Norwegian Air Shuttle contracts have pretty generous pay and conditions, which is why they started creating subsidiaries in lower cost countries.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Blerg
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:50 am

SQ789 wrote:
LN-NIA is now withdrawn and it’s the latest fleet to go. DY is reducing fleet lately. Which base is DY closing next?


Do you know by how many aircraft they have reduced their fleet in recent times?
 
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XLA2008
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:28 am

BA777FO wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

It's a bit like Ryanair; they've engaged in questionable, borderline illegal practices, that have propelled the race to the bottom for labour standards among airlines in Europe. European airline T&Cs are well below those in the USA.

I know the retort will be that there'll be downward pressure when x number of employees are looking for a job but better to have those employees looking for jobs at companies offering reasonable T&Cs and working conditions than forcing them lower by flying for an airline with an unsustainable business.



No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


To be fair, almost anyone with a licence and 1,500 hours can get a job in Europe these days. Surely you'd rather have a job that pays well and complies with the spirit of labour laws than a poorly paid one where you're a pawn in a system trying to circumvent labour laws?


I have flown both in Europe and the United States, and while “some” airlines in Europe do exploit loopholes, I can honestly say that conditions flying in Europe are WELL ABOVE the standards set here in the United States without question on so many levels!
“For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.“
 
Blerg
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:58 am

XLA2008 wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
MCTSET wrote:


No absolutely not, I have never heard of a time for employees where it is better to be unemployed than be in work because it’s better for your industry.


To be fair, almost anyone with a licence and 1,500 hours can get a job in Europe these days. Surely you'd rather have a job that pays well and complies with the spirit of labour laws than a poorly paid one where you're a pawn in a system trying to circumvent labour laws?


I have flown both in Europe and the United States, and while “some” airlines in Europe do exploit loopholes, I can honestly say that conditions flying in Europe are WELL ABOVE the standards set here in the United States without question on so many levels!


What conditions are you especially referring to?
 
a350lover
Posts: 768
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:07 am

Apart from the long haul operation in FCO, which does not connect to Asia at all, DY is probably among the European carriers less exposed to the Coronavirus effects? Little traffic to Asia, limited to Thailand which hasn't seen many cases. Not much intra-European traffic Scandinavia-Italy operated by them, just few connections to OSL, CPH and ARN which probably have seen decrease in frequencies.

Instead, better fuel prices, travel demand towards rest of the World, and Boeing compensations (has anyone know what is the amount of that?) could help DY...
 
VSMUT
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:26 am

skipness1E wrote:
Why did they move so many 737s onto the Swedish register of late? Many out of Ireland as well as Norway.


An insider told me they were tired of the inefficient and hostile nature of their Irish partners and CAA.
 
speedbird52
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:43 am

I fly BA a lot purely because I fly to London a lot. Part of me hopes DY disappearing means BA will start competing on standards rather than price, but common sense says they will just lower their standards and raise their prices more.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 437
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:12 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Good thing they did not accept IAG's offer. They will just disappear on their own and get out of the way.


I hope that's sarcasm, I think not accepting IAG's offer was the biggest mistake they ever made!


I meant good for IAG. They didn't have to spend any money to make Norwegian disappear. They will disappear on their own. IAG used that money for something useful like Air Europa.
Last edited by Detroit313 on Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:36 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.


Norway? Flag of convenience? It's one of the most expensive places in the world to do business :roll:

The Norway based crew on legacy Norwegian Air Shuttle contracts have pretty generous pay and conditions, which is why they started creating subsidiaries in lower cost countries.


As a Norwegian domestic passenger I doubt there are many crew left on legacy Norwegian Air Shuttle contracts, you're more likely to find crew from Eastern or Southern Europe.
 
SCQ83
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:37 am

a350lover wrote:
Apart from the long haul operation in FCO, which does not connect to Asia at all, DY is probably among the European carriers less exposed to the Coronavirus effects? Little traffic to Asia, limited to Thailand which hasn't seen many cases. Not much intra-European traffic Scandinavia-Italy operated by them, just few connections to OSL, CPH and ARN which probably have seen decrease in frequencies.

Instead, better fuel prices, travel demand towards rest of the World, and Boeing compensations (has anyone know what is the amount of that?) could help DY...


That is a very narrow minded analysis.

Air traffic is already taking a major hit within Europe and TATL (e.g. most major American and European companies are already restricting all travel to "only essential" to anywhere in the world).

That means that the excess of capacity in TATL and within Europe will only become bigger. And Norwegian was already the weakest link in this over-served market.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:53 am

RexBanner wrote:
flag of convenience model


'flag of convenience'?
DY has subsidiaries in markets it operates. That's not any different from BMW & Mercedes in the US. It's the nature of doing business globally.

Some airlines will not survive the current slowdown. That's bad news for consumers & avgeeks.
 
a350lover
Posts: 768
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:08 am

SCQ83 wrote:

That is a very narrow minded analysis.

Air traffic is already taking a major hit within Europe and TATL (e.g. most major American and European companies are already restricting all travel to "only essential" to anywhere in the world).

That means that the excess of capacity in TATL and within Europe will only become bigger. And Norwegian was already the weakest link in this over-served market.


Partially agree with you. I was trying to stress the main reasons Norwegian could claim itself as not much impacted by this. For obvious reasons this crisis affects all travel demand around the globe, and therefore also Norwegian. Despite that, IAG for example only announced 1% capacity cuts. They are trying to boost capacity to other markets which are still strong (India, South Africa, USA...). I wanna believe things will be much quieter and demand will increase again in a matter of 1-2 months.
 
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scbriml
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:57 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees.


Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.


OK, so both those countries would require Norwegian abide by EU employment laws and regulations.How is Norwegian undermining the aviation World by operating under EU laws?

Varsity1 wrote:
And Argentina, U.K..


UK as above.

Argentina - they have three planes.

KlimaBXsst wrote:
... to counter practices damaging to livelihoods, like flags of convenience.


Please explain how "flag of convenience" (apart from being a BS excuse) works for Norwegian.

RyanairGuru wrote:
Norway? Flag of convenience? It's one of the most expensive places in the world to do business


No, no, Norwegian is destroying the aviation World with their expensive flags of convenience.

WingsOfLove wrote:
'flag of convenience'?
DY has subsidiaries in markets it operates.


Stop being reasonable, get on the hate bandwagon. :wink2:

This whole trope of "flag of convenience" is nonsense given the flags Norwegian is operating under.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 409
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:52 pm

scbriml wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Which flag of convenience do they use? Panama? Liberia? Cayman Islands?


Ireland and Norway.


OK, so both those countries would require Norwegian abide by EU employment laws and regulations.How is Norwegian undermining the aviation World by operating under EU laws?

Varsity1 wrote:
And Argentina, U.K..


There is apparently no protection in EU laws against employee exploitation. Look at all the Baltic sleazebag avaiation outfits. P2F operators etc.
 
RexBanner
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:37 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:05 pm

Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?
 
Blerg
Posts: 3213
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:50 pm

RexBanner wrote:
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?


So what you are saying now is that airlines should not enter markets 'that were already catered for by other operators?' This makes no sense as they would have to go after only unserved markets.
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