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Palumboism
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:00 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


I'm with you in hoping they succeed. They were the first to use the Max transatlantic between Rhode Island and Ireland. They are the Southwest airline for long haul.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:15 pm

Blerg wrote:
So what you are saying now is that airlines should not enter markets 'that were already catered for by other operators?' This makes no sense as they would have to go after only unserved markets.


And the environmental argument is even more against that viewpoint where the incumbent is using planes from the last millennium and DY using the very latest, fuel and noise per passenger is significantly in DY's favour.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 843
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:36 pm

scbriml]

[quote="KlimaBXsst wrote:
... to counter practices damaging to livelihoods, like flags of convenience.


Please explain how "flag of convenience" (apart from being a BS excuse) works for Norwegian.

[ /quote="scbriml]

They can source cheaper labor contracts from other EU countries, and not be upheld to higher levels of redundancy compensation by those said countries.

You know this already scbriml. Why try to argue this in depth... just for the sake of it? Do YOU like to see people working at not so great compensation, OR do you prefer seeing people WORK at GREAT COMPENSATION levels so they can support their families, like I prefer people to be able to do so.

PS this is rhetorical so I really don’t NEED or want a response from you. You come across are a bit arrogant.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 691
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:56 pm

Palumboism wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
So many vultures here, just waiting for DY to go bust. I've said before: I can't get to grips with the hatred that this airline elicits in some a.nutters.....


I'm with you in hoping they succeed. They were the first to use the Max transatlantic between Rhode Island and Ireland. They are the Southwest airline for long haul.



lol, no. WN pays their cabin crew better than any other U.S. major and give great benefits. They are also very profitable.

DY is the 180 degree opposite of all above points. Faster they go away the better.

People encouraging DY better be there at the ribbon cutting ceremonies of all Walmart openings, the same ceremonies that serve as a wake for the rest of the town's retail business. I think people are catching on to this dark side of globalism and who it really serves.
 
Kiwinlondon
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:24 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:43 pm

Rex Banner said
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?[

So you don't want any competition then? You want them to fly routes on a monopoly basis then which no one probably wants to fly - Timbuktu to New Orleans would be a good one
 
Kiwinlondon
Posts: 94
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Rex Banner wrote
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?
[

So you don't want any competition then? You want them to fly routes on a monopoly basis then which no one probably wants to fly - Timbuktu to New Orleans would be a good one[/quote]
 
Kiwinlondon
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:24 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:51 pm

RexBanner wrote:
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?


So you don't want any competition then? You want them to fly routes on a monopoly basis then which no one probably wants to fly - Timbuktu to New Orleans would be a good one[/quote]
 
smartplane
Posts: 1472
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:31 pm

RexBanner wrote:
Smartplane you’ve been given the answer to that in their flag of convenience model pushing for the race to the bottom for employees. If we’re going in the climate change direction then why the hell should DY be allowed to add needless capacity and emissions on routes that are already well catered for?

What about customer rights? Presume you always fly full fare and drive a US-made car?

I do agree with you about the race to the bottom. I have a grand children, and am concerned about future employment trends.

But I have worked with / do work with companies exploiting zero-based contracts, many of them the legacies you uphold, doing one thing on home soil, and quite another across the border or ocean. Who are the major players when it comes to exploiting low tax jurisdictions, tax effective funding, tax shelters? It's not the minnows and startups.

The nature of my work often requires dialogue with staff at all levels. All very well for entrenched legacy employees with a job, pension, home, bonuses, etc to take the moral high ground, but there are staff out there keen to work, almost any type of work, who are fiercely supportive and passionate of DY, U2, FR and others of their ilk for giving them that opportunity.

If legacies still ruled the World, Heathrow volumes would barely need 2 runways, let alone a third.

We need a re-distribution of income. It could start with US legacies undertaking all maintenance in the USA, which would result in lower or no bonuses for staff. How would that go?

If emissions are your fortress, who says legacies should have a monopoly on route capacity? If DY operate 787's and other modern aircraft, versus a legacy with 767's, 757's, and early 777's, surely it should be the legacy that concedes capacity for the greater good.
 
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BasilFawlty
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:39 am

Blerg wrote:
Do you know by how many aircraft they have reduced their fleet in recent times?

13 738's left the fleet in 2019, 6 738's left the fleet in 2020.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
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Antaras
Posts: 701
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:48 am

Who will be buyers for the 787s???
It will be hard for DY if it wants to sell the 787s, due to its stupid engine choice...
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ewt340
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:58 am

I never see their business model working, they don't have streamline operations and the "high-end" LCC model hasn't worked well in Europe as it is in the US.
 
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scbriml
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:24 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

Ireland and Norway.


OK, so both those countries would require Norwegian abide by EU employment laws and regulations.How is Norwegian undermining the aviation World by operating under EU laws?

Varsity1 wrote:
And Argentina, U.K..


There is apparently no protection in EU laws against employee exploitation. Look at all the Baltic sleazebag avaiation outfits. P2F operators etc.


What employee exploitation? Which Baltic sleazebags? Provide specifics not vague generalisations.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
olle
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:31 am

PavlovsDog wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
PavlovsDog wrote:
With Japan closing all of the their schools, Trump putting his head in the sand hoping for the best, and the virus popping up all over the place the demise of Norwegian will be the tip of the iceberg.

It's really not a question of if now but when. It'll be a shame.

Norwegian has a lot of great people and their new CEO Jacob Schram and new COO Marty St. George are fantastic leaders. Norway and the Scandinavian markets in general need a second strong competitor to SAS so a scaled down version of Norwegian will undoubtedly emerge from the ashes, unencumbered by Bjørn Kjos's insane growth plans.

Norwegian certainly won't be the only airline which won't survive this crisis. I imagine especially Boeing is going to have some major challenges as well with lawsuits and compensation.


Getting into the long haul business was a mistake. They should’ve focused on short and medium haul.
Agreed but not getting rid of Bjørn Kjos earlier is the root cause. They were doing fine until he went crazy and bought both Airbus 320s and 737 maxes.

I'd like to Norwegian 2.0 with a fleet centered around the 321 neo LRs and 320s (already on order) which would be ideal for making money in its core markets including thinner long-haul. If St. George sticks around I can see them going upmarket and having a mint like product as well. Maybe JV with AirBaltic (who also went crazy and ordered too many planes) who can serve smaller markets with their lower cost base and Norwegian with the 32xs on the thicker routes.



I think this is likely what will happen. 789 will be the last wb delivered to Norwegian if they get delivery at all or lease them to other carriers.

When is the 320s supposed to be delivered to norwegian?
 
olle
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:35 am

Antaras wrote:
Who will be buyers for the 787s???
It will be hard for DY if it wants to sell the 787s, due to its stupid engine choice...


The 788 with the problematic engines should soon get to their en of lease. When are they supposed to leave?

The new 789 coming has the TEN version and should as I understand have no problem.

Am I correct?
 
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lesfalls
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:42 am

RexBanner wrote:
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?


I think you might be mistaken about the Thai Cabin crew being on pathetic contracts. The Thai crew make more then THAI Airlines crew (which is the national carrier by the way) and from sources have been very happy with the working conditions.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
flyjay123
Posts: 140
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:25 pm

lesfalls wrote:
RexBanner wrote:
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc. scbril you need to get a grip on reality and realize that their product is being sold way below cost. I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?


I think you might be mistaken about the Thai Cabin crew being on pathetic contracts. The Thai crew make more then THAI Airlines crew (which is the national carrier by the way) and from sources have been very happy with the working conditions.


I've talked with various DY crews, and they say their perfectly happy with the salary, T&C. Crews who left VS and BA to join DY because they'll be better off!
 
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scbriml
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:46 pm

RexBanner wrote:
Thai Cabin crew on pathetic contracts etc etc.


Who are, apparently, perfectly happy to work for Norwegian. Nobody kidnapped them and press-ganged them into working for "pathetic contracts".

RexBanner wrote:
I notice you have completely ignored my point about the environmental angle (which more and more people are interested in, like it or not) of Norwegian adding capacity and emissions on routes that were already being catered for by other operators?


Hadn't noticed your comment was directed at me, not ignored. How is Norwegian any different to any other airline competing on routes? Do you want competition made illegal? They're using new, highly efficient planes on long-hauls and would be doing same on short-haul if MAX wasn't currently grounded. So it seems they're doing as much on the 'environmental angle' as any airline out there.

KlimaBXsst wrote:
They can source cheaper labor contracts from other EU countries, and not be upheld to higher levels of redundancy compensation by those said countries.


Any EU-based company can employ anyone from any other EU country. That's got nothing to do with 'flag of convenience'.

KlimaBXsst wrote:
PS this is rhetorical so I really don’t NEED or want a response from you.


OK. :wave:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MCTSET
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:44 pm

Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?
 
Varsity1
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:23 pm

scbriml wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
scbriml wrote:

OK, so both those countries would require Norwegian abide by EU employment laws and regulations.How is Norwegian undermining the aviation World by operating under EU laws?



There is apparently no protection in EU laws against employee exploitation. Look at all the Baltic sleazebag avaiation outfits. P2F operators etc.


What employee exploitation? Which Baltic sleazebags? Provide specifics not vague generalisations.


Air Baltic.

Anyone who works in the industry knows they have an ugly pay to fly scheme full of desperate people.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 440
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:40 pm

MCTSET wrote:
Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?


Well, at the moment they are offering 20% reduced fares, and another 4% off the price if you pay by money transfer rather than by creditcard.
To me that sounds like a rather desperate measure to tighten their cashposition.

They also recently offered the posibility to pay by crypto-currency.

I guess their cashposition is approaching a critical level.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
jfk777
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:02 pm

Antaras wrote:
Who will be buyers for the 787s???
It will be hard for DY if it wants to sell the 787s, due to its stupid engine choice...


RR powered 787 still have value and some one will buy them especially if they are "cheap." BA could use all the 787 it can bet their hands on and all the better in a bankruptcy. IAG is buying Air Europa which has a fleet of RR 787 so why would they be buying an airline whose main plane could be a "problem" .
 
Blerg
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:21 am

Varsity1 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

There is apparently no protection in EU laws against employee exploitation. Look at all the Baltic sleazebag avaiation outfits. P2F operators etc.


What employee exploitation? Which Baltic sleazebags? Provide specifics not vague generalisations.


Air Baltic.

Anyone who works in the industry knows they have an ugly pay to fly scheme full of desperate people.


Do you mind explaining to us who are not in the industry?
 
Danny
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:29 am

Polot wrote:
MaksFly wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That would be a good thread topic some day. Knowledgeable people could clear up some misconceptions for you.


Which would be what?

While I do not cover the airline industry, I am a financial analyst... and airlines have historically, up until the last 8 years or so, been crappy investments.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy is not a government bailout. Obviously the mechanism is coded into US law but the government is not the one providing them money, or forcing anyone to.


Effectively it is. It is the law passed by government that allows companies to legally defraud creditors, shareholders and employees and stay in business despite failure. These people are forced out of their money.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:42 am

jfk777 wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Who will be buyers for the 787s???
It will be hard for DY if it wants to sell the 787s, due to its stupid engine choice...


RR powered 787 still have value and some one will buy them especially if they are "cheap." BA could use all the 787 it can bet their hands on and all the better in a bankruptcy. IAG is buying Air Europa which has a fleet of RR 787 so why would they be buying an airline whose main plane could be a "problem" .


I think there would be numerous potential suitors in the event they became available for whatever reason. Existing RR 787 airlines for starters (e.g. BA as you say), as well as airlines with ageing widebody fleets (e.g. Condor) who would jump at an opportunity to replace them with nearly-new current generation aircraft for a lot less than it would to buy brand new and more quickly.
 
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Polot
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:57 am

Danny wrote:
Polot wrote:
MaksFly wrote:

Which would be what?

While I do not cover the airline industry, I am a financial analyst... and airlines have historically, up until the last 8 years or so, been crappy investments.

Chapter 11 bankruptcy is not a government bailout. Obviously the mechanism is coded into US law but the government is not the one providing them money, or forcing anyone to.


Effectively it is. It is the law passed by government that allows companies to legally defraud creditors, shareholders and employees and stay in business despite failure. These people are forced out of their money.

As oppose to all the money creditors, shareholders, and employees get when businesses fail? A failing company is hardly defrauding them by entering Chapter 11.

Chapter 11 is not a blank check that allows management to do what they want. A creditor doesn’t have to continue giving a company their money or services (they may have to write off money already given...but they will have to do that if the business fails anyways). If the creditors and shareholders don’t support the business plan they can easily shut the company down, and an employee can leave at any time. The whole point of Chap 11 is short term pain, long term gain.
 
jfk777
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:04 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Antaras wrote:
Who will be buyers for the 787s???
It will be hard for DY if it wants to sell the 787s, due to its stupid engine choice...


RR powered 787 still have value and some one will buy them especially if they are "cheap." BA could use all the 787 it can bet their hands on and all the better in a bankruptcy. IAG is buying Air Europa which has a fleet of RR 787 so why would they be buying an airline whose main plane could be a "problem" .


I think there would be numerous potential suitors in the event they became available for whatever reason. Existing RR 787 airlines for starters (e.g. BA as you say), as well as airlines with ageing widebody fleets (e.g. Condor) who would jump at an opportunity to replace them with nearly-new current generation aircraft for a lot less than it would to buy brand new and more quickly.


Good observation, LOT Polish has RR powered 787's. Used 787-8 would probably be excellent planes for Condor, a few ANA 787-8 could be available soon too.
 
MCTSET
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:37 pm

Dahlgardo wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?


Well, at the moment they are offering 20% reduced fares, and another 4% off the price if you pay by money transfer rather than by creditcard.
To me that sounds like a rather desperate measure to tighten their cashposition.

They also recently offered the posibility to pay by crypto-currency.

I guess their cashposition is approaching a critical level.



Yep that seems real bad.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:03 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe other threads are full of these hater posts but I haven't seen any in this thread.

Here is one:

Kiwirob wrote:
I'd be so happy if they went tits up, they are an awful airline, I dread flying them, unfortunately the company I work for has them as the preferred airline partner.


Kiwirob wrote:
In an ideal world another good airline would take over Norwegians domestic Norwegian network, someone like KLM would fit the bill.

What do you mean? You would like to see KLM start flying within Norway? Like SAS, Norwegian and Widerøe are doing now? Why on earth would KLM even consider that? In an ideal world workers shouldn't complain about travel paid for by the company.
 
716131
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:07 pm

Seems like DY has suffer even more troubles due to the Coronavirus affected the regions like other airlines does.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:58 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe other threads are full of these hater posts but I haven't seen any in this thread.

Here is one:

:confused:

You do realize he posted AFTER I did. Why don't you look BEFORE my post for people being extremely negative. I can't predict the future
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 969
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:36 pm

Yes, sorry about that. It usually is a matter of time though before 'haters' show up. Too bad you can't predict the future. Would be nice to know what will happen to Norwegian. The airline is still on my wish to fly list.
 
716131
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:50 am

MartijnNL wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe other threads are full of these hater posts but I haven't seen any in this thread.

Here is one:

Kiwirob wrote:
I'd be so happy if they went tits up, they are an awful airline, I dread flying them, unfortunately the company I work for has them as the preferred airline partner.


Kiwirob wrote:
In an ideal world another good airline would take over Norwegians domestic Norwegian network, someone like KLM would fit the bill.

What do you mean? You would like to see KLM start flying within Norway? Like SAS, Norwegian and Widerøe are doing now? Why on earth would KLM even consider that? In an ideal world workers shouldn't complain about travel paid for by the company.

If the one who will took over DY operations in Norway after they went bust soon. Only others but KLM can do it. I'm not sure which airline will took DY operations once they went bust someday soon. As I mention earlier, DY financial now just keeps getting worst due to the coronavirus that spread the regions.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
325i
Posts: 125
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:57 am

Greetings Folks, including Norwegian "haters".
It appears that Norwegian (D8) are ranked as the largest foreign carrrier for 2019 to NYC.
2,057,284 customers. That may not transfer into making a profit but shows that the acceptance level in
Flying them is far better than some posts on this thread.
I look forward to receiving some interesting comments.
Cheers 325i.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12856
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:33 am

MartijnNL wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
Maybe other threads are full of these hater posts but I haven't seen any in this thread.

Here is one:

Kiwirob wrote:
I'd be so happy if they went tits up, they are an awful airline, I dread flying them, unfortunately the company I work for has them as the preferred airline partner.


Kiwirob wrote:
In an ideal world another good airline would take over Norwegians domestic Norwegian network, someone like KLM would fit the bill.

What do you mean? You would like to see KLM start flying within Norway? Like SAS, Norwegian and Widerøe are doing now? Why on earth would KLM even consider that? In an ideal world workers shouldn't complain about travel paid for by the company.


For a start KLM are the third largest carrier internationally from Norway, they have an extensive route network from many Norwegian cities to AMS, I think they are in a good position to replace Norwegian (if they want to) when Norwegian goes tits up.

When you've been delayed and messed around with as much as I have been with Norwegian over the years it's natural to not want to use them unless you have no alternative.
 
THS214
Posts: 339
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:43 am

Varsity1 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

There is apparently no protection in EU laws against employee exploitation. Look at all the Baltic sleazebag avaiation outfits. P2F operators etc.


What employee exploitation? Which Baltic sleazebags? Provide specifics not vague generalisations.


Air Baltic.

Anyone who works in the industry knows they have an ugly pay to fly scheme full of desperate people.


Desperate people is the right word. Which one would you chose, never get a job after investing 200 000€ or pay to fly and get the hours to be employable? Its easy to say when you are a lucky one who gets hired from school but many are not so lucky. No-one wants to pay anything for their training but most have to. Anyone against pay to fly must be against pay for training. Otherwise its hypocrite.
 
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bgm
Posts: 2430
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:06 am

Isn't it strange that all the posters salivating over DY's possible demise seem to come from one specific country? :duck: These same people also doesn't seem to comprehend that all EU countries are equal in terms of open skies agreements, hence why this whole 'flag of convenience' garbage is nothing but a red herring.

These same people also have zero problems with their major airlines operating 'express' carriers with employees being paid much less, not to mention having their major aircraft manufacturer open another plant in a different state using 'state of convenience' labor laws.

The stench of hypocrisy is rather strong... :spin:
If you hate wearing a mask, you’re really going to hate using a ventilator.
 
Varsity1
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Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:54 am

THS214 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

What employee exploitation? Which Baltic sleazebags? Provide specifics not vague generalisations.


Air Baltic.

Anyone who works in the industry knows they have an ugly pay to fly scheme full of desperate people.


Desperate people is the right word. Which one would you chose, never get a job after investing 200 000€ or pay to fly and get the hours to be employable? Its easy to say when you are a lucky one who gets hired from school but many are not so lucky. No-one wants to pay anything for their training but most have to. Anyone against pay to fly must be against pay for training. Otherwise its hypocrite.


Airlines in Europe hire at 250hrs.

Paying for training and paying to work are entirely different.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:56 am

bgm wrote:
Isn't it strange that all the posters salivating over DY's possible demise seem to come from one specific country? :duck: These same people also doesn't seem to comprehend that all EU countries are equal in terms of open skies agreements, hence why this whole 'flag of convenience' garbage is nothing but a red herring.

These same people also have zero problems with their major airlines operating 'express' carriers with employees being paid much less, not to mention having their major aircraft manufacturer open another plant in a different state using 'state of convenience' labor laws.

The stench of hypocrisy is rather strong... :spin:


Are they all equal? Norway isn't even in the EU. How is that equal?
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LupineChemist
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:03 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:07 am

Varsity1 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Isn't it strange that all the posters salivating over DY's possible demise seem to come from one specific country? :duck: These same people also doesn't seem to comprehend that all EU countries are equal in terms of open skies agreements, hence why this whole 'flag of convenience' garbage is nothing but a red herring.

These same people also have zero problems with their major airlines operating 'express' carriers with employees being paid much less, not to mention having their major aircraft manufacturer open another plant in a different state using 'state of convenience' labor laws.

The stench of hypocrisy is rather strong... :spin:


Are they all equal? Norway isn't even in the EU. How is that equal?


Norway is in the European Common Aviation Area, which is separate from the EU. That's the common aviation market (and how they are able to offer domestic flights in Spain, for example)
 
Bostrom
Posts: 952
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:14 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Norway isn't even in the EU. How is that equal?


No, but they are in the EEA.
 
Curiousflyer
Posts: 583
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:24 am

They need to re-start service betweenJFK and FDF. Too bad that did not work.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:24 pm

MCTSET wrote:
Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?


Norwegian's financial results for 2019 can be seen here:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/document ... 9-q4-93741

For 2019 Norwegian made a loss of NOK1,609. This followed a loss of NOK1,454 in 2018.

The report includes a summary of their cash-flow.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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User avatar
bgm
Posts: 2430
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:01 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
bgm wrote:
Isn't it strange that all the posters salivating over DY's possible demise seem to come from one specific country? :duck: These same people also doesn't seem to comprehend that all EU countries are equal in terms of open skies agreements, hence why this whole 'flag of convenience' garbage is nothing but a red herring.

These same people also have zero problems with their major airlines operating 'express' carriers with employees being paid much less, not to mention having their major aircraft manufacturer open another plant in a different state using 'state of convenience' labor laws.

The stench of hypocrisy is rather strong... :spin:


Are they all equal? Norway isn't even in the EU. How is that equal?


Norway is part of the EEA and European Common Aviation Area, and subsequently is also included with the EU-US open skies agreement (including Switzerland & Iceland)

I suggest you read these before commenting further:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU%E2%80% ... _Agreement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ ... ation_Area
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Bongodog49
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:10 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?


Norwegian's financial results for 2019 can be seen here:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/document ... 9-q4-93741

For 2019 Norwegian made a loss of NOK1,609. This followed a loss of NOK1,454 in 2018.

The report includes a summary of their cash-flow.


A quick glance through the report says to me that either the shareholders will need to stump up more cash very shortly or Norwegian is doomed. The end of year cash in hand was more or less the amount raised by the two share issues in 2019, since then the outlook for all airlines has been poor/ awful. The hit will be on them all, the difference is that those who were doing great can take a 10% or so hit in income, ones who were already losing 5% or so on every ticket sold are in a perilous situation.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:57 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
MCTSET wrote:
Is there any chance that DY actually go bust this time, are they in a tight cash position?


Norwegian's financial results for 2019 can be seen here:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/document ... 9-q4-93741

For 2019 Norwegian made a loss of NOK1,609. This followed a loss of NOK1,454 in 2018.

The report includes a summary of their cash-flow.


A quick glance through the report says to me that either the shareholders will need to stump up more cash very shortly or Norwegian is doomed. The end of year cash in hand was more or less the amount raised by the two share issues in 2019, since then the outlook for all airlines has been poor/ awful. The hit will be on them all, the difference is that those who were doing great can take a 10% or so hit in income, ones who were already losing 5% or so on every ticket sold are in a perilous situation.


Companies go bust when they run out of other peoples money. If people are willing to continue to give them money they will continue to exist but if customers fearing flights will not happen, lender thinking they will not be repaid, vendors reducing payment terms, new investors do not see it as a good opportunity or old investors decide to cut their loses. If any of these cut them off them off they fail. So what I would look for is evidence of one of these happening once there is move from one section the rest will probably stampede and it will be over. But we will have to see what happens. I am no expert, I have never flown with Norwegian and unlikely to in the near future, it means nothing to me I have no agenda, these are just the realities that play out each time. Your good until people think your not. I think on the balance of probabilities they will not survive but it will take quite a long time to play out they will not be failing this week, month or quarter.
 
MCTSET
Posts: 196
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:19 pm

Summer season is really 2 months away, will they make it that far considering the damage Corona is doing right now, and their already tight cash flow doesn't help.
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:57 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
Bongodog49 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:

Norwegian's financial results for 2019 can be seen here:

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/document ... 9-q4-93741

For 2019 Norwegian made a loss of NOK1,609. This followed a loss of NOK1,454 in 2018.

The report includes a summary of their cash-flow.


A quick glance through the report says to me that either the shareholders will need to stump up more cash very shortly or Norwegian is doomed. The end of year cash in hand was more or less the amount raised by the two share issues in 2019, since then the outlook for all airlines has been poor/ awful. The hit will be on them all, the difference is that those who were doing great can take a 10% or so hit in income, ones who were already losing 5% or so on every ticket sold are in a perilous situation.


Companies go bust when they run out of other peoples money. If people are willing to continue to give them money they will continue to exist but if customers fearing flights will not happen, lender thinking they will not be repaid, vendors reducing payment terms, new investors do not see it as a good opportunity or old investors decide to cut their loses. If any of these cut them off them off they fail. So what I would look for is evidence of one of these happening once there is move from one section the rest will probably stampede and it will be over. But we will have to see what happens. I am no expert, I have never flown with Norwegian and unlikely to in the near future, it means nothing to me I have no agenda, these are just the realities that play out each time. Your good until people think your not. I think on the balance of probabilities they will not survive but it will take quite a long time to play out they will not be failing this week, month or quarter.


I don't doubt your general analysis, but Norwegian were only sitting on free cash of around 1 months turnover at Jan 1st. In the worst quarter of the year anyway they would have expected to be in red ink territory until Easter under the best of circumstances, and with the measures already put in place move into the black for the rest of the year. With the market turning against them I very much doubt they can reach Easter without new funds. A rights issue will produce only a fraction of the last ones due to the collapse in the share price, and they now have next to no collateral for any new loans.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:02 pm

325i wrote:
Greetings Folks, including Norwegian "haters".
It appears that Norwegian (D8) are ranked as the largest foreign carrrier for 2019 to NYC.
2,057,284 customers. That may not transfer into making a profit but shows that the acceptance level in
Flying them is far better than some posts on this thread.
I look forward to receiving some interesting comments.
Cheers 325i.

Not really sure why that matters, even you admit it doesn't translate into a profit. What would their "acceptance level" be if they charged higher fares needed to be profitable?

bgm wrote:
Isn't it strange that all the posters salivating over DY's possible demise seem to come from one specific country? :duck: These same people also doesn't seem to comprehend that all EU countries are equal in terms of open skies agreements, hence why this whole 'flag of convenience' garbage is nothing but a red herring.

These same people also have zero problems with their major airlines operating 'express' carriers with employees being paid much less, not to mention having their major aircraft manufacturer open another plant in a different state using 'state of convenience' labor laws.

The stench of hypocrisy is rather strong... :spin:

The stench of stereotyping (and irony) is rather strong. Just at the top of my head, I know kiwirob is critical of DY. What country is he from, and where does he live now? Hint: not America and not America.
 
mcg
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:58 pm

FWIW I live in Denver and what I observe is that people talk about DY's low fares then always end up flying on some other airline. Sometimes the schedule doesn't work or 'it's not that much more' to use LH or BA or UA or 'I want to use (or earn) miles'. That's DY's problem, their fares don't seem to buy much in the marketplace.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: DY about to go bust?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:03 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Bongodog49 wrote:

A quick glance through the report says to me that either the shareholders will need to stump up more cash very shortly or Norwegian is doomed. The end of year cash in hand was more or less the amount raised by the two share issues in 2019, since then the outlook for all airlines has been poor/ awful. The hit will be on them all, the difference is that those who were doing great can take a 10% or so hit in income, ones who were already losing 5% or so on every ticket sold are in a perilous situation.


Companies go bust when they run out of other peoples money. If people are willing to continue to give them money they will continue to exist but if customers fearing flights will not happen, lender thinking they will not be repaid, vendors reducing payment terms, new investors do not see it as a good opportunity or old investors decide to cut their loses. If any of these cut them off them off they fail. So what I would look for is evidence of one of these happening once there is move from one section the rest will probably stampede and it will be over. But we will have to see what happens. I am no expert, I have never flown with Norwegian and unlikely to in the near future, it means nothing to me I have no agenda, these are just the realities that play out each time. Your good until people think your not. I think on the balance of probabilities they will not survive but it will take quite a long time to play out they will not be failing this week, month or quarter.


I don't doubt your general analysis, but Norwegian were only sitting on free cash of around 1 months turnover at Jan 1st. In the worst quarter of the year anyway they would have expected to be in red ink territory until Easter under the best of circumstances, and with the measures already put in place move into the black for the rest of the year. With the market turning against them I very much doubt they can reach Easter without new funds. A rights issue will produce only a fraction of the last ones due to the collapse in the share price, and they now have next to no collateral for any new loans.


Its not when you run out of money its when others realize you have run out of money, you can live for a while on borrowed time until it ends Wile E. Coyote like.

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