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a350lover
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:04 pm

To add more Irish winds to the game... actually SAS do also have an Irish AOC: SAS Ireland.
 
vadheim
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 9:21 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:30 pm

This is done to secure essential infrastructure within and to/from Norway as well as jobs in Norway. I guess what is going on in the rest of the world is not the primary interest of the Norwegian government.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 529
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:31 pm

Where is Norwegian's debt substantially loaded ? Group holding company ? Does NAS act as guarantor of everything ? Does each subsidiary have its debt guarantees separately ? Do any of the companies in the group provide guarantees to each other ?
Am wondering how feasible it would be for one of the subsidiaries to be put into bankruptcy so that the other companies would not carry the burden and allow the others to survive...
 
oslmgm
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:29 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:49 pm

UPNYGuy wrote:
Do they mean immediately have positive equity? Or lower the debt.

Norwegian doesn't meet the 8% equity criteria, so that's why there are extra conditions for them - they have to negotiate with their creditors to enter "phase 2", the 1.2 billion NOK.
 
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Mortyman
Posts: 5775
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:41 pm

mandyhaslott wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Tonight it became clear that the government of Norway will provide loan guarantees of NOK 6 billion to airlines with Norwegian operating permits.

Norwegian can access NOK 3 billion

SAS NOK 1.5 billion

Other companies NOK 1.5 billion

The loan guarantees come with a number of conditions for the companies.

Among other things, the companies are required to have an equity ratio of at least 8 per cent at the end of the last quarter. 10 per cent of the loan must be financed by banks or other commercial counterparties.

The warranty of Norwegian is divided into three stages:

- In the first phase, they receive a guarantee of NOK 300 million, with no conditions other than finding someone else who can finance the last 10 percent of the loan.

- In the second phase, up to NOK 1.2 billion will be made available, provided that the company's creditors repay interest and make installments over a three-month period.

- The third phase requires Norwegian to be able to increase its equity.


Only SAS and Widerøe satisfy the equity requirement.

https://www.nrk.no/norge/regjeringen-me ... 1.14953033


So when you say Norwegian, you mean only for NAN & NAS? NAI, NSE & NUK won’t get a penny? If that is correct, do you think Norwegian will “move things around” to ensure these three subsidiaries get a piece of the action? I’m just interested to know because there will be huge political ramifications if Irish, Swedish & UK airlines get wind of a foreign government propping up one of their competitors on their own turf.


Don't know
 
a350lover
Posts: 768
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:18 pm

I am not sure how easily can Norwegian accomplish with the first condition for receiving the Norwegian Govt. funds. Do you think it will be easy for them to look for a private investor securing that 10% of the capital? All airlines are struggling at these difficult times, so I don't think this private support could come from the aviation industry.

I assume the airline should now re-organize the whole network and approach the business from a very clear clear perspective: profitability and cost effectiveness.

For obvious reasons, Norwegian should support the Norwegian local jobs at the bases of OSL, SVG, BGO and TRD. Even there, I guess Norwegian should figure out what part of the operation is essential and comercially viable. I see them there decreasing route frequencies and probably cutting part of the international operation able to be flown via other bases with less costs. I don't think any of them is removable, being TRD maybe the less profitable?

Out of Norway, Spain is the second most important country for Norwegian. That is explained because of the huge tourism industry which flies Scandinavia-Spain year round. I don't see that falling apart all of sudden, but probably this summer profit just vanished. They have ARN, CPH, HEL, LGW, AGP, ALC, BCN, TFS and LPA if I am right.

I don't think LPA/TFS can remain. Rostering those bases is particularly complicated and many other airlines experienced that in past attempts. All flights are ultra-long, and they soon get to the yearly maximums of flying hours. On top of that, both are probably the smallest bases with just 1-2 planes each. Those sectors can easily be flown from OSL/ARN/CPH.

ALC/AGP are probably the purely heavy-Scandinavian Spanish hubs. They see Scandi traffic year round. They are both 4-5 planes each. The crews there mean a real cost cut versus colleagues in Scandinavia. They are big enough probably to maintain the crew-rostering needs and costs in which they incur. They don't see competence in many routes. Norwegian is really strong from there in the markets they serve.

BCN: the SH strategy to apply from there truly depends on the continuity of the long haul operation. Although the destination is a World-first-class city, the competence is fierce and comes from many directions, Vueling being the main. Part of the traffic Scandinavia-BCN isn't yearly, and decreases heavily during the winter.

LGW: tiny SH base for a market like London which sees tones of competition in LGW. Probably much of the flight frequencies could be flown via other bases.

As much as I believe Norwegian made itself a global airline via the long haul business, I don't think much/any of it is profitable. Bases there are really dispersed and I don't have a clear picture of what each of them includes: BKK (soon ends), CPH (pilots), LGW (both), BCN (both), CDG, FCO, LAX, JFK and FLL. Anything else? I don't think everything can be sustainable in regards with these operations.

From an American perspective, it would be easier to fly everything from the US hubs: LAX, JFK and FLL to Europe.
FCO: I don't think Italy will have an easy job in recovering its tourism industry. Better if they could just serve it as a destination or drop operations.
BCN: huge competence from IAG, and tourism industry truly damaged. Better if they could just serve it as a destination or drop operations.
CDG: huge competence from every possible player. Better if they could just serve it as a destination or drop operations.
CPH: probably if they need a LH base in Scandinavia is just OSL.
LGW: hard to define the strategy of Norwegian there. It's probably biggest LH base, but I am not sure what's profitable.
OSL: probably this is where Norwegian should have a base in mainland Europe if they are at all thinking about the transit passenger.

My main question regarding the long-haul operation of Norwegian now is. Is any of it viable? Could Norwegian make any money getting rid of the 787 fleet in the current market conditions?

What are your thoughts? Many thanks!
 
alo2yyz
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:53 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:02 am

alo2yyz wrote:
I have a short-haul ticket on DY in June. Just received an email inviting me to cancel convert its value to Cashpoints. I noticed also that the change fee has been waived up to the end of November. Last time I looked at the site, the change fee waiver was only for spring flights (maybe through 4/30? I don't remember).


DY now offering Cashpoints + an extra 20% in value.
https://www.norwegian.com/uk/flight-status/updates/
 
danni
Posts: 6
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:45 am

Norwegian is now getting help from the Norwegian state, amount is 300 million NOK. - Could also get a credit guarantee up to 3 billion. See all the details below.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21B0ST
 
factsonly
Posts: 2813
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:04 am

From the Reuters article - Good and bad news for Norwegian:

REUTERS - March 24th, 2020:

A condition for receiving the first 300 million crowns ($26.6 million) from Norway’s rescue package was that commercial lenders were willing to supply 10% of that amount while the government would provide the remaining 90%. “Norwegian is pleased to announce that two Nordic banks have obtained credit committee approval to provide a guarantee for the required 10%,” a company statement said.

but also:

On Monday, leasing company DP Aircraft (DPAD.L) said a unit of Norwegian Air had failed to make payments relating to two Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft in its fleet, which had been due on March 13.
DP Aircraft and its asset manager, DS Aviation, will prioritize discussions with Norwegian “in order to determine whether and on what basis it may be able to meet its obligations,” DP said.
Norwegian did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Tuesday.

And further money is only available under strict and difficult conditions to accept:

An additional tranche of 1.2 billion crowns is dependent on creditors postponing installments and scrapping interest payments for as long as the guarantee lasts.
Another of 1.5 billion crowns would require Norwegian to boost its equity, the government has said.
 
minilinde
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:09 am

factsonly wrote:
From the Reuters article - Good and bad news for Norwegian:

REUTERS - March 24th, 2020:

A condition for receiving the first 300 million crowns ($26.6 million) from Norway’s rescue package was that commercial lenders were willing to supply 10% of that amount while the government would provide the remaining 90%. “Norwegian is pleased to announce that two Nordic banks have obtained credit committee approval to provide a guarantee for the required 10%,” a company statement said.

but also:

On Monday, leasing company DP Aircraft (DPAD.L) said a unit of Norwegian Air had failed to make payments relating to two Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft in its fleet, which had been due on March 13.
DP Aircraft and its asset manager, DS Aviation, will prioritize discussions with Norwegian “in order to determine whether and on what basis it may be able to meet its obligations,” DP said.
Norwegian did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Tuesday.

And further money is only available under strict and difficult conditions to accept:

An additional tranche of 1.2 billion crowns is dependent on creditors postponing installments and scrapping interest payments for as long as the guarantee lasts.
Another of 1.5 billion crowns would require Norwegian to boost its equity, the government has said.


Interesting! I'm just adding the source link here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21B0ST
Types flown: A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, CRJ2, CRJ9, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:11 am

danni wrote:
Norwegian is now getting help from the Norwegian state, amount is 300 million NOK. - Could also get a credit guarantee up to 3 billion. See all the details below.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21B0ST


The 300 MNOK, is part of that 3 billion NOK guarantee
 
jhz94
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:59 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:12 am

Can't be a good sign that they are defaulting their lease payments...
Did you know that you can run diesel cars on Jet A1?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6925
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:33 pm

factsonly wrote:

And further money is only available under strict and difficult conditions to accept:

An additional tranche of 1.2 billion crowns is dependent on creditors postponing installments and scrapping interest payments for as long as the guarantee lasts.
Another of 1.5 billion crowns would require Norwegian to boost its equity, the government has said.


Somebody in the Norwegian government has given this some thought: look for support by commercial lenders who are confident of a sound business plan going forward instead of just shoveling money into a lost cause (cough, Alitalia).
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:05 pm

Has http://www.norwegiancargo.com been discussed here already? It looks like they will try to use the 787s as freighters at least during the corona crisis.
 
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breiz
Posts: 1446
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:30 pm

An unusual sight at SVG (Stavanger Sola airport):
https://finalcall.travel/no/her-star-st ... na-krisen/
In Norwegian but the pictures speak for themselves.
 
minilinde
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:16 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:19 am

breiz wrote:
An unusual sight at SVG (Stavanger Sola airport):
https://finalcall.travel/no/her-star-st ... na-krisen/
In Norwegian but the pictures speak for themselves.


Isn’t it weird that they haven’t covered the engines etc?
Types flown: A318, A319, A320, A321, A32N, A333, A343, A359, A380, AT42, AT72, B717, B733, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739, B744, B748, B763, B772, B773, B788, B789, CRJ2, CRJ9, ERJ190, MD80s/90, RJ100
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1019
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:30 am

People didn't believe me when I said that the Norwegian government was behind the continued equity infusions at DY (through small funds).
If Norway are giving DY this kind of rescue package without much of a collateral or strings attached, it's clear now that DY is indirectly subsidised by the Norwegian State.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:46 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
People didn't believe me when I said that the Norwegian government was behind the continued equity infusions at DY (through small funds).
If Norway are giving DY this kind of rescue package without much of a collateral or strings attached, it's clear now that DY is indirectly subsidised by the Norwegian State.


Well if that was true, then the Norwegian CEO wouldn’t have to give interviews to the press about how they have just 1-2 weeks left without further help from the government.

The current package is good but not good enough.
Also, many airlines all over the world are receiving aid from their respective governments these days. That doesn’t prove that Norwegian received equity infusions before the Covid19 outbreak.
 
Someone83
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:04 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
People didn't believe me when I said that the Norwegian government was behind the continued equity infusions at DY (through small funds).
If Norway are giving DY this kind of rescue package without much of a collateral or strings attached, it's clear now that DY is indirectly subsidised by the Norwegian State.


It was more "strings attached" to the package Norwegian got from the Norwegian government, vs the one SAS, Widerøe and the other got.

And there is still no need to believe you, when you clearly hasn't understood who up to this date has financed Norwegian
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1019
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:20 am

Someone83 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
People didn't believe me when I said that the Norwegian government was behind the continued equity infusions at DY (through small funds).
If Norway are giving DY this kind of rescue package without much of a collateral or strings attached, it's clear now that DY is indirectly subsidised by the Norwegian State.


It was more "strings attached" to the package Norwegian got from the Norwegian government, vs the one SAS, Widerøe and the other got.

And there is still no need to believe you, when you clearly hasn't understood who up to this date has financed Norwegian


Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.

Half of the funding, NKr3 billion, will be directed at embattled budget operator Norwegian, with another NKr1.5 billion for SAS. The remaining NKr1.5 billion will be split between Wideroe and other carriers.

“Many countries are establishing major schemes to ensure liquidity for the airlines,” says the Norwegian finance ministry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/n ... 13.article

It's clear that the Norwegian government is propping up DY and also "inviting the shareholders", a series of little unknown Norwegian funds who seem happy losing millions on DY, to invest to boost equity "as a condition" .

Smokes and mirrors.

Why not nationalise it and get it over with, build a hub in OSL and do something like AY?
They have a small but wealthy local market in Norway and DY's global everywhere but no-where, London point to point strategy has failed, so it may make more sense to do that and also promote Norway as a destination.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:35 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
People didn't believe me when I said that the Norwegian government was behind the continued equity infusions at DY (through small funds).
If Norway are giving DY this kind of rescue package without much of a collateral or strings attached, it's clear now that DY is indirectly subsidised by the Norwegian State.


It was more "strings attached" to the package Norwegian got from the Norwegian government, vs the one SAS, Widerøe and the other got.

And there is still no need to believe you, when you clearly hasn't understood who up to this date has financed Norwegian


Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.

Half of the funding, NKr3 billion, will be directed at embattled budget operator Norwegian, with another NKr1.5 billion for SAS. The remaining NKr1.5 billion will be split between Wideroe and other carriers.

“Many countries are establishing major schemes to ensure liquidity for the airlines,” says the Norwegian finance ministry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/n ... 13.article

It's clear that the Norwegian government is propping up DY and also "inviting the shareholders", a series of little unknown Norwegian funds who seem happy losing millions on DY, to invest to boost equity "as a condition" .

Smokes and mirrors.

Why not nationalise it and get it over with, build a hub in OSL and do something like AY?


You do realize that the danish and Swedish government offered financial aid to SAS but nothing to Norwegian so far?

So SAS already received way more help than Norwegian or any other Scandinavian airline
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1019
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:46 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:

It was more "strings attached" to the package Norwegian got from the Norwegian government, vs the one SAS, Widerøe and the other got.

And there is still no need to believe you, when you clearly hasn't understood who up to this date has financed Norwegian


Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.

Half of the funding, NKr3 billion, will be directed at embattled budget operator Norwegian, with another NKr1.5 billion for SAS. The remaining NKr1.5 billion will be split between Wideroe and other carriers.

“Many countries are establishing major schemes to ensure liquidity for the airlines,” says the Norwegian finance ministry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/n ... 13.article

It's clear that the Norwegian government is propping up DY and also "inviting the shareholders", a series of little unknown Norwegian funds who seem happy losing millions on DY, to invest to boost equity "as a condition" .

Smokes and mirrors.

Why not nationalise it and get it over with, build a hub in OSL and do something like AY?


You do realize that the danish and Swedish government offered financial aid to SAS but nothing to Norwegian so far?

So SAS already received way more help than Norwegian or any other Scandinavian airlines


Do you realise that DY
A. doesn't have a meaningful operation in Denmark
B. has no Dannish nor Swedish identities

As such, it looks to me like the Norwegian government are also including SK in their package so that it looks less like they're trying to save DY, despite that SK is not a Norwegian carrier.
What does the Norwegian taxpayer think about that?

As I said, Norway should stop fooling around, disrupting other airlines with meaningless competition in their hubs, nationalise DY, build a hub in OSL and build a good, decent airline.
They can be much more powerful like that and provide jobs to locals.
 
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AirPacific747
Posts: 9711
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:52 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.

Half of the funding, NKr3 billion, will be directed at embattled budget operator Norwegian, with another NKr1.5 billion for SAS. The remaining NKr1.5 billion will be split between Wideroe and other carriers.

“Many countries are establishing major schemes to ensure liquidity for the airlines,” says the Norwegian finance ministry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/n ... 13.article

It's clear that the Norwegian government is propping up DY and also "inviting the shareholders", a series of little unknown Norwegian funds who seem happy losing millions on DY, to invest to boost equity "as a condition" .

Smokes and mirrors.

Why not nationalise it and get it over with, build a hub in OSL and do something like AY?


You do realize that the danish and Swedish government offered financial aid to SAS but nothing to Norwegian so far?

So SAS already received way more help than Norwegian or any other Scandinavian airlines


Do you realise that DY
A. doesn't have a meaningful operation in Denmark
B. has no Dannish nor Swedish identities

As such, it looks to me like the Norwegian government are also including SK in their package so that it looks less like they're trying to save DY, despite that SK is not a Norwegian carrier.
What does the Norwegian taxpayer think about that?

As I said, Norway should stop fooling around, disrupting other airlines with meaningless competition in their hubs, nationalise DY, build a hub in OSL and build a good, decent airline.
They can be much more powerful like that and provide jobs to locals.


What are you talking about? At one point DY was bigger than SAS in CPH.

DY has lots of Danish and Swedish employees whose jobs could be worth saving for the Danish and Swedish state just as they are in SAS. The only difference is that DK and SE both own a share of SAS and that’s why they chose to support SK and not DY.

But that begs the question why SK deserves state ownership when other airlines don’t
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:08 am

AirPacific747 wrote:

What are you talking about? At one point DY was bigger than SAS in CPH.


What are you talking about? Norwegian has never been bigger that SAS at CPH. Not even close. Same with ARN. However they are/was the largest carrier at OSL

But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:13 am

Someone83 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

What are you talking about? At one point DY was bigger than SAS in CPH.


What are you talking about? Norwegian has never been bigger that SAS at CPH. Not even close. Same with ARN. However they are/was the largest carrier at OSL

But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC


Ok maybe not in cph specifically but in the nordics, so your “not even close” remark seems quite extreme in the whole context.

https://sn.dk/Erhverv/Norwegian-var-ogs ... kel/514472
 
a350lover
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:39 am

Someone83 wrote:
[
But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC


Can anyone give a bit of hint in why are they proceeding with that transfer of planes to the Swedish AOC?
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:39 am

AirPacific747 wrote:

Ok maybe not in cph specifically but in the nordics, so your “not even close” remark seems quite extreme in the whole context.

https://sn.dk/Erhverv/Norwegian-var-ogs ... kel/514472


Remember these passenger number is for the whole Norwegian. Including everything that was/is outside the Nordics
 
a350lover
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:40 am

Someone83 wrote:
[
But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC


Can anyone give a bit of hint in why are they proceeding with that transfer of planes to the Swedish AOC?
 
K37a8
Posts: 4
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:50 am

a350lover wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
[
But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC


Can anyone give a bit of hint in why are they proceeding with that transfer of planes to the Swedish AOC?


With the Swedish AOC they are more flexible. They can have the same management and interoperability for flight crew. The IAA won’t allow interoperability and that causes massive headaches and high cost for the company. Sooner or later the Irish AOC will be gone since they only need 1 AOC within the European Union.
 
JeremyXWB
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:04 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:10 pm

K37a8 wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
[
But that said, Norwegian has a Swedish AOC, and is actually in the process of moving most of their Irish planes into their Swedish entity and AOC


Can anyone give a bit of hint in why are they proceeding with that transfer of planes to the Swedish AOC?


With the Swedish AOC they are more flexible. They can have the same management and interoperability for flight crew. The IAA won’t allow interoperability and that causes massive headaches and high cost for the company. Sooner or later the Irish AOC will be gone since they only need 1 AOC within the European Union.


At the risk of being labelled but I'm going to asked it anyway, so why did they go through all the trouble of obtaining an Irish AOC instead of a Swedish AOC initially in the first place?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:30 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:

You do realize that the danish and Swedish government offered financial aid to SAS but nothing to Norwegian so far?

So SAS already received way more help than Norwegian or any other Scandinavian airlines


Do you realise that DY
A. doesn't have a meaningful operation in Denmark
B. has no Dannish nor Swedish identities

As such, it looks to me like the Norwegian government are also including SK in their package so that it looks less like they're trying to save DY, despite that SK is not a Norwegian carrier.
What does the Norwegian taxpayer think about that?

As I said, Norway should stop fooling around, disrupting other airlines with meaningless competition in their hubs, nationalise DY, build a hub in OSL and build a good, decent airline.
They can be much more powerful like that and provide jobs to locals.


What are you talking about? At one point DY was bigger than SAS in CPH.

DY has lots of Danish and Swedish employees whose jobs could be worth saving for the Danish and Swedish state just as they are in SAS. The only difference is that DK and SE both own a share of SAS and that’s why they chose to support SK and not DY.

But that begs the question why SK deserves state ownership when other airlines don’t


DY deserves as much state aid in Denmark and Sweden as Ryanair. Ie nothing.
They operate a low frequency network, just mostly seasonal routes, no long haul. Meaningless.
If they had a 25% Danish shareholding, sure by all means, but that's not the case, so it's normal that they don't get anything there.
The same way, SAS while huge in OSL, does not deserve state aid in Norway even if it has a past Norwegian identity. The Norway government just doesn't want to be caught propping up its failing disruptor, IMHO.
 
Mangs
Posts: 38
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:59 pm

JeremyXWB wrote:
K37a8 wrote:
a350lover wrote:

Can anyone give a bit of hint in why are they proceeding with that transfer of planes to the Swedish AOC?


With the Swedish AOC they are more flexible. They can have the same management and interoperability for flight crew. The IAA won’t allow interoperability and that causes massive headaches and high cost for the company. Sooner or later the Irish AOC will be gone since they only need 1 AOC within the European Union.


At the risk of being labelled but I'm going to asked it anyway, so why did they go through all the trouble of obtaining an Irish AOC instead of a Swedish AOC initially in the first place?


I think it has something to do with that financing an aircraft was cheaper to get in Ireland(EU AOC) than in Sweden(Also EU AOC) before Sweden also signed/joined the Cape Town Treaty in 2015/2016.

Heres some links I found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Town_Treaty

https://svw.no/en/news/news/2016/june/t ... countries/

https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressrel ... -eu-960681

And you can also google: cape town convention "sweden" "Norwegian"

I might be wrong tho :smile:
 
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Dahlgardo
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:03 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
DY deserves as much state aid in Denmark and Sweden as Ryanair. Ie nothing.
They operate a low frequency network, just mostly seasonal routes, no long haul. Meaningless.


Please do yourself the favor to check the facts before you post something like above.
DY has a very extensive network out of Denmark.

That said, it should be up to the Norwegian government to bail them out.

At the moment it looks like DY will fold unless the demands in the Norwegian aid package are changed.

That they are now defaulting on lease payments is a sign that the death spiral has started.
They will not be able to find financing in the market with the current outlook for the company and the airline industry as a whole.

Perhaps they can be reusrrected sometime in the future after the covid19-crises has passed.
The brand should be strong enough to do that.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:03 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:

DY deserves as much state aid in Denmark and Sweden as Ryanair. Ie nothing.
They operate a low frequency network, just mostly seasonal routes, no long haul. Meaningless.
If they had a 25% Danish shareholding, sure by all means, but that's not the case, so it's normal that they don't get anything there.
The same way, SAS while huge in OSL, does not deserve state aid in Norway even if it has a past Norwegian identity. The Norway government just doesn't want to be caught propping up its failing disruptor, IMHO.


It is not really about who own what etc, but in the end it is to protect its jobs. Thus why the Norwegian government has given about the same support in terms of loan guarantees (in addition to other packages given to all Norwegian employers) to both SAS and Norwegian, as both of them employs local tax paying Norwegians
 
usflyer msp
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:08 pm

I think people are overreacting to the missed lease payments. It is not wise for DY to be using their limited capital to pay for a bunch of 787's that they will not be able to use in the near term, if ever. DY probably wants them repossessed.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:34 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the missed lease payments. It is not wise for DY to be using their limited capital to pay for a bunch of 787's that they will not be able to use in the near term, if ever. DY probably wants them repossessed.


Or they might have even negotiated with the lessor to defer payments for a few months. I am not sure any airline WANTS their aircraft repossessed because of the negatives that go along with that. Contract breach and all that. That might be the end result either way, but we don't know.. I worked with aircraft leasing for a couple of years, It was quite common for certain airlines to miss payments or be behind a month or two on them and they were not getting repossessed. Obviously lessors have a limit to what they can accept and if DY to continue to miss payments, that reality of losing those aircraft becomes more inevitable.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:52 pm

VS4ever wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the missed lease payments. It is not wise for DY to be using their limited capital to pay for a bunch of 787's that they will not be able to use in the near term, if ever. DY probably wants them repossessed.


Or they might have even negotiated with the lessor to defer payments for a few months. I am not sure any airline WANTS their aircraft repossessed because of the negatives that go along with that. Contract breach and all that. That might be the end result either way, but we don't know.. I worked with aircraft leasing for a couple of years, It was quite common for certain airlines to miss payments or be behind a month or two on them and they were not getting repossessed. Obviously lessors have a limit to what they can accept and if DY to continue to miss payments, that reality of losing those aircraft becomes more inevitable.


I'm sure DY tried that but, as every airline in the world is under financial duress right now, the lessor probably could not give the desired relief so DY was like come and get them, we're not paying.
 
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vhtje
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:20 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the missed lease payments. It is not wise for DY to be using their limited capital to pay for a bunch of 787's that they will not be able to use in the near term, if ever. DY probably wants them repossessed.


Wouldn't that drive up DY's future financing costs though? I mean, I am sure their market and credit rating was bad before, but now, since CORVID-19 and missing payments, is completely junk. And let's face it, DY isn't going to recover in any way without more cash being thrown at it.

Personally, my belief is that because DY will never able to raise the sort of cash they need to survive the CORVID-19 crisis, it's all over for them. As far as I can see, its only hope for survival is to be nationalised by the Norwegian government.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:40 pm

vhtje wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I think people are overreacting to the missed lease payments. It is not wise for DY to be using their limited capital to pay for a bunch of 787's that they will not be able to use in the near term, if ever. DY probably wants them repossessed.


Wouldn't that drive up DY's future financing costs though? I mean, I am sure their market and credit rating was bad before, but now, since CORVID-19 and missing payments, is completely junk. And let's face it, DY isn't going to recover in any way without more cash being thrown at it.

Personally, my belief is that because DY will never able to raise the sort of cash they need to survive the CORVID-19 crisis, it's all over for them. As far as I can see, its only hope for survival is to be nationalised by the Norwegian government.


I don't think they care. As you stated, their credit rating is already trash so some aircraft repossessions are not really going to make a difference. At this point, it is all about conserving cash.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:56 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.

Half of the funding, NKr3 billion, will be directed at embattled budget operator Norwegian, with another NKr1.5 billion for SAS. The remaining NKr1.5 billion will be split between Wideroe and other carriers.

“Many countries are establishing major schemes to ensure liquidity for the airlines,” says the Norwegian finance ministry.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/n ... 13.article

It's clear that the Norwegian government is propping up DY and also "inviting the shareholders", a series of little unknown Norwegian funds who seem happy losing millions on DY, to invest to boost equity "as a condition" .

Smokes and mirrors.

Why not nationalise it and get it over with, build a hub in OSL and do something like AY?


You do realize that the danish and Swedish government offered financial aid to SAS but nothing to Norwegian so far?

So SAS already received way more help than Norwegian or any other Scandinavian airlines


Do you realise that DY
A. doesn't have a meaningful operation in Denmark
B. has no Dannish nor Swedish identities

As such, it looks to me like the Norwegian government are also including SK in their package so that it looks less like they're trying to save DY, despite that SK is not a Norwegian carrier.
What does the Norwegian taxpayer think about that?

As I said, Norway should stop fooling around, disrupting other airlines with meaningless competition in their hubs, nationalise DY, build a hub in OSL and build a good, decent airline.
They can be much more powerful like that and provide jobs to locals.



Many Norwegians remember all to well the monopoly that SAS had when Norwegian was not around and the exorbant price SAS charged for airfare. SAS is actually the reason why Norwegian Air shuttle went from a small domestic airline to such a big one with longhaul routes etc. SAS failed to offer that from Norway at the time, even thoguh Norway was a co owner of the airline at the time and that is why Norwegian has become so big. Norwegian people wanted competition in the market and Norwegian promised to give SAS a run for their money. Many in Norway still do.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:04 pm

Let us suppose that the Norwegian Govt for whatever reason declines to provide enough monetary support to keep Norwegian Air alive, and the airline goes bust. Clearly SAS will then have a monopoly in conjunction with Wideroe, and one would expect fares to rise.

Would one expect an entrepreneur to start Norwegian Air version 2 (or some suitable name) but learning from some of the mistakes made by DY ?

I'm trying to figure out whether there is enough space to support 2 airlines flying 150+ seat aircraft on a wide range of routes domestically within Norway
 
XaraB
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:35 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I'm trying to figure out whether there is enough space to support 2 airlines flying 150+ seat aircraft on a wide range of routes domestically within Norway

The two airlines have coexisted profitably domestically for at least a decade.
An open mind is not an empty one
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:27 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I'm trying to figure out whether there is enough space to support 2 airlines flying 150+ seat aircraft on a wide range of routes domestically within Norway


Yes, without doubt. Norwegian domestic has been profitable for both SAS and Norwegian for a long time. With both good volume and yield
 
YIMBY
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:42 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Let us suppose that the Norwegian Govt for whatever reason declines to provide enough monetary support to keep Norwegian Air alive, and the airline goes bust. Clearly SAS will then have a monopoly in conjunction with Wideroe, and one would expect fares to rise.

Would one expect an entrepreneur to start Norwegian Air version 2 (or some suitable name) but learning from some of the mistakes made by DY ?

I'm trying to figure out whether there is enough space to support 2 airlines flying 150+ seat aircraft on a wide range of routes domestically within Norway


No.

Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair and Norra will fill the hole, maybe also KLM or Lufthansa group, too. There may be a rush to Norwegian markets.
 
oslmgm
Posts: 224
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:06 am

YIMBY wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Let us suppose that the Norwegian Govt for whatever reason declines to provide enough monetary support to keep Norwegian Air alive, and the airline goes bust. Clearly SAS will then have a monopoly in conjunction with Wideroe, and one would expect fares to rise.

Would one expect an entrepreneur to start Norwegian Air version 2 (or some suitable name) but learning from some of the mistakes made by DY ?

I'm trying to figure out whether there is enough space to support 2 airlines flying 150+ seat aircraft on a wide range of routes domestically within Norway


No.

Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair and Norra will fill the hole, maybe also KLM or Lufthansa group, too. There may be a rush to Norwegian markets.

I think Widerøe will expand with their new Embraer E2s way before Norra.
 
LJ
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:41 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Norwegian offered largest share of airline state guarantee package

Norway’s government is providing a conditional state loan guarantee for its aviation industry amounting to NKr6 billion ($533 million), and is securing a minimum level of flight operations in the country.


Does this mean that only the Norwegian part will be guaranteed or the entire company (including its foreign subsidiaries)?
 
a350lover
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:43 pm

Does anyone know what was the offer that IAG made for Norwegian a year ago? Do you think an offer like that could be accepted if ever happened again from IAG or any other third entity? (obviously now it's worth way less money!)
 
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Mortyman
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:12 pm

Norwegian Boeing 787's and Boeing 737's taking a rest at an airport in Norway. Soon they will be joined by SAS aircraft.

Image

Image

Photos by Aftenbladet and Helitrans
 
YIMBY
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:34 pm

a350lover wrote:
Does anyone know what was the offer that IAG made for Norwegian a year ago? Do you think an offer like that could be accepted if ever happened again from IAG or any other third entity? (obviously now it's worth way less money!)


Today's market value of Norwegian is 135 M€ (Bloomberg.com), so IAG, also Ryanair, Easyjet, even Finnair could buy it with their cash, if they not had to save it for their own survival.
For comparison, SAS is 300 M€, Finnair 462 M€, all may be bloated with promised state aid.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:00 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Norwegian Boeing 787's and Boeing 737's taking a rest at an airport in Norway. Soon they will be joined by SAS aircraft.

Image

Image

Photos by Aftenbladet and Helitrans


SVG isn’t it? I’ve Ben there a few times this year and have never landed in this runway, is it still active?
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