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olle
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:36 am

If they keep the Airbus order perhaps longhaul with A321XLR?
 
a350lover
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:38 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
I hope they will get out of long haul flying all together and forcus on intra-european routes with fewer hubs.


Time before this corona crisis exploded many warned that was the only solution for them. However, looking at the plan they presented before this General Meeting which unfolds details of what they call "New Norwegian", they don't push back the long haul operation.

I have the feeling Norwegian actually benefited from the COVID19. They were having huge financial problems before all this, and who knows if they had ended up in a worst scenario without the covid and not having any kind of Government support.

EDIT: NAS stocks trading at 6.13NOK, more than 30 % increase at the moment.
Last edited by a350lover on Mon May 04, 2020 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
LJ
Posts: 5334
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:41 am

Dahlgardo wrote:
I hope they will get out of long haul flying all together and forcus on intra-european routes with fewer hubs..


According to the plan they presented, the new Norwegian will have considerably less long haul flying (virtually no non-hub long haul like AMS-JFK) and seriously reduced non-hub flights. AFAIK they intend to end up with around 50 aircraft less of what they currently have for the entire group. It's all in the powerpoint presentation a few posts ago (page 35 and 43 of the presentation).

jonas12345 wrote:
DY have released their plans for restructuring:

https://www.norwegian.com/globalassets/documents/other/norwegian-air-shuttle-asa_presentation-to-bondholders_27-april-2020.pdf

It looks brutal...holding lessors hostage
 
a350lover
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:46 am

LJ wrote:
According to the plan they presented, the new Norwegian will have considerably less long haul flying (virtually no non-hub long haul like AMS-JFK) and seriously reduced non-hub flights. AFAIK they intend to end up with around 50 aircraft less of what they currently have for the entire group. It's all in the powerpoint presentation a few posts ago (page 35 and 43 of the presentation).


I wonder what "hub" means for Norwegian network. They have long haul bases in LAX, JFK and FLL in the US. However, no short-haul operations from there.

In Europe, CDG, BCN, FCO and LGW are the main crew bases, having just pilots in CPH. However, one would think their main and most logic "HUB" is Oslo where they operate the largest amount of short-haul flights which are needed to feed.

What's a hub-hub route for Norwegian then?
 
Someone83
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:49 am

I do think JFK is defined as a hub, per their definitions here
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5954
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 10:25 am

I would imagine Gatwick is considered a hub

Part of the thinking Has to be predicated on British Airways pulling out of Gatwick.

That is a huge opportunity
 
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gioannis13
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 10:47 am

Any new for ATH-JFK VV flights 2020 ?
SeaSunSex...........
 
Diverskii
Posts: 12
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 10:49 am

Reading the plan presented last week, they are clear that they wish to:

"focus on proven destinations, like LGW, JFK, LAX, connecting large demand flows"

It makes a very interesting read for anyone interested in corporate finance, especially the terms accepted by lessors and creditors. The lessors are backed in to a corner by Covid and this seems to have given DY a way out for the next ~12 months.

Existing shareholders are all but wiped out and left with a maximum of around 5.2% by this plan...ouch! :shock:
 
jonas12345
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 11:02 am

I have to say, the lessors must be feeling the pain right now. They've had to take a big haircut on their lease rentals and if approved, will own the company! Very strange times.

I would be looking at cancelling all near / medium term orders if I were DY now. I can imagine there are very very few people who will now want to enter into a financing arrangement with them given the outcome.
 
olle
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 11:38 am

a350lover wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
I hope they will get out of long haul flying all together and forcus on intra-european routes with fewer hubs.


Time before this corona crisis exploded many warned that was the only solution for them. However, looking at the plan they presented before this General Meeting which unfolds details of what they call "New Norwegian", they don't push back the long haul operation.

I have the feeling Norwegian actually benefited from the COVID19. They were having huge financial problems before all this, and who knows if they had ended up in a worst scenario without the covid and not having any kind of Government support.

EDIT: NAS stocks trading at 6.13NOK, more than 30 % increase at the moment.


In reality the banks and the leasing companies owns Norwegian at this moment. The owners lost everything.

I cannot imagine leasing companies accepting this model 2 month. Compare with Air Berlin.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8049
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 11:41 am

Someone83 wrote:
After an agreement with the bondholders was reached during the weekend, they got approval from the leasing companies early this morning, and today the shareholders have voted yes for both the debt to equity transfer and the issues of new share. Thus Norwegian then should be approved to get the planned bank guarantees from the government. In addition they have significantly reduced their debt and interest and amortization payment the next year


This is achieved at the cost of tremendous dilution of current shareholders - who apparently think this is better than liquidation. From Reuters, emphasis mine:

Based on the results from the shareholders’ meeting, the company will now proceed with the conversion of bonds and lease debt to shares, as well as the public offering of up to 400 million ($38.4 million) from the sale of new stock, it said.

The debt conversion and share sale will allow Norwegian Air to tap government guarantees of up to 2.7 billion crowns, which hinge on a reduction in leverage, on top of 300 million crowns it has already received.

The plan will hand majority ownership to the airline’s creditors and could leave current shareholders with just 5.2%.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22G0F5
 
Diverskii
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 12:31 pm

Indeed, after all conversions the ownership breakdown will be:

Lessors - 53.1%
Bond Holders - 41.7%
Existing Shareholders - 5.2%

Strange times
 
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Polot
Posts: 10633
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 12:42 pm

olle wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Dahlgardo wrote:
I hope they will get out of long haul flying all together and forcus on intra-european routes with fewer hubs.


Time before this corona crisis exploded many warned that was the only solution for them. However, looking at the plan they presented before this General Meeting which unfolds details of what they call "New Norwegian", they don't push back the long haul operation.

I have the feeling Norwegian actually benefited from the COVID19. They were having huge financial problems before all this, and who knows if they had ended up in a worst scenario without the covid and not having any kind of Government support.

EDIT: NAS stocks trading at 6.13NOK, more than 30 % increase at the moment.


In reality the banks and the leasing companies owns Norwegian at this moment. The owners lost everything.

I cannot imagine leasing companies accepting this model 2 month. Compare with Air Berlin.


The difference is at the time of Air Berlin leasing companies could easily place their aircraft elsewhere for more money. Now? Not so much.

Unless you are saying you can’t imagine leasing companies agreeing to this two months ago (pre covid). Which yes I agree. Desperate times allow for desperate measure though.

MIflyer12 wrote:
This is achieved at the cost of tremendous dilution of current shareholders - who apparently think this is better than liquidation.

There is really not much for DY to liquidate that would go to shareholders, especially with the value of anything aviation related in the toilet right now. It’s essentially a choice between having a small piece of the pie or having nothing.
 
Mortyman
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 6:05 pm

I have heard that they only plan to fly 7 aircraft in 2020 … Sounds a bit over the top cautious
 
a350lover
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 7:04 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I have heard that they only plan to fly 7 aircraft in 2020 … Sounds a bit over the top cautious


Norway and Scandinavia will get out of this pandemia some earlier. However, Norwegian businesss was heavily dependent on international traffic (Spain, UK and the US mainly).
 
Someone83
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 4:09 am

Mortyman wrote:
I have heard that they only plan to fly 7 aircraft in 2020 … Sounds a bit over the top cautious


That is their base case, 7 aircraft for a limited domestic operation in Norway, funded by the government. SAS operates about the same

However, they have also clearly said that if demands return earlier, they can easily add more capacity
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 11:52 am

I see that many of the DY/DI flights from Europe to the U.S. are still in the system.
Was there any word if and when they will be removed?
 
leghorn
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 12:58 pm

Management can't afford to be reckless now. If they displease the bondholders and leaseholders and EGM can be called instantly and they are out on their ear. There will be none of the irrational exuberance that was seen in the past. If the planes aren't making good money when the airframe market picks up again they'll be taken away and leased to others.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 1:59 pm

a350lover wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I have heard that they only plan to fly 7 aircraft in 2020 … Sounds a bit over the top cautious


Norway and Scandinavia will get out of this pandemia some earlier. However, Norwegian businesss was heavily dependent on international traffic (Spain, UK and the US mainly).


Scandinavia has an inherent need for air travel that doesn't exist in the rest of Europe (where rail travel is more practical). SAS and KLM are the only two feasible full service airlines that can cater for this whole region competitively.

However, DY is mainly focused on trans-Atlantic operations which is where the bulk of the pandemic has hit. Asia will rebound quicker but DY doesn't serve that region in great numbers, whereas competition in more-southern Continental Europe is tough.
 
enplaned
Posts: 112
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 10:12 pm

airhansa wrote:
a350lover wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
I have heard that they only plan to fly 7 aircraft in 2020 … Sounds a bit over the top cautious


Norway and Scandinavia will get out of this pandemia some earlier. However, Norwegian businesss was heavily dependent on international traffic (Spain, UK and the US mainly).


Scandinavia has an inherent need for air travel that doesn't exist in the rest of Europe (where rail travel is more practical). SAS and KLM are the only two feasible full service airlines that can cater for this whole region competitively.


Europe is a continent of peninsulas, islands, etc. A *lot* of city pairs are better suited to air travel than any other mode. And even when rail is competitive, air can sometimes undercut it, which says something about the relative efficiencies of the companies offering rail vs air.

Agree that Scandinavia is one of the European geographies where air is most relevant, however.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 06, 2020 12:11 am

Diverskii wrote:
Indeed, after all conversions the ownership breakdown will be:

Lessors - 53.1%
Bond Holders - 41.7%
Existing Shareholders - 5.2%

Strange times

Yes, sure it is strange times. I don't think we have ever seen a similar situation.

The leasing companies are now in total control. Normally they would have liquidated the company, but in the present situation with COVID-19 they have no possibility in the foreseeable future to place the planes at other airline companies.

Therefore, better let Norwegian fly those routes which they have proven fairly economically viable, and then rebate the leasing fees month by month so the company just exactly doesn't fold. That way the leasing companies minimize their losses.

If / when the leasing companies one day are able to place the planes at other airline companies, then it will be interesting to see what happens. It is not the long term interest of the leasing companies to compete against their main customers in the air.

The Norwegian plane orders at Boeing and Airbus are now also controlled by the leasing companies. When the market normalizes one day - when we can see past the COVID and MAX crisis - then the leasing company orders will be reshuffled, and the Norwegian orders will be part of the resulting mass cancellations.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
airsmiles
Posts: 111
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 06, 2020 6:27 am

This whole saga reminds me of Air Europe in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. An over ambitious airline sets up a complex web of businesses so that no one knows what’s really going on. They then fly every entitled passenger to all manner of destinations for ridiculously low fares until the whole show crumbles. During this time, truly sustainable airlines are forced to defend their businesses, which impacts growth, jobs and employee terms and conditions. The whole airline industry is forced into a race to the bottom in terms of passenger experience. I’ve flown Norwegian a number of times and they did nothing special, certainly nothing innovative except disrupt the airline industry and lose investors money quicker than others.

In another ten years from now, some misguided people will think they’re doing something different and try it all over again.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 12:31 am

a350lover wrote:
LJ wrote:
According to the plan they presented, the new Norwegian will have considerably less long haul flying (virtually no non-hub long haul like AMS-JFK) and seriously reduced non-hub flights. AFAIK they intend to end up with around 50 aircraft less of what they currently have for the entire group. It's all in the powerpoint presentation a few posts ago (page 35 and 43 of the presentation).


I wonder what "hub" means for Norwegian network. They have long haul bases in LAX, JFK and FLL in the US. However, no short-haul operations from there.

In Europe, CDG, BCN, FCO and LGW are the main crew bases, having just pilots in CPH. However, one would think their main and most logic "HUB" is Oslo where they operate the largest amount of short-haul flights which are needed to feed.

What's a hub-hub route for Norwegian then?


Main crew bases but as said in the presentations "focusing on LAX, LGW, JFK" it surely means that Spain, Italy and France are going to get cut with them trying to reinforce those bases instead with shorthaul aircraft (With OSL staying where it is). This is proven as the Spanish pilot and crew union reported to be completely abandoned from Norwegian with them in other words being "fired" without doing the typical spanish framework when companies fire people in Spain. At the following link you can see the whole letter below from SEPLA

"Dear Jacob,

Even though social media is a very effective tool to reach people in this wonderful world of
technology, I myself am not connected to LinkedIn, so I’m using the old-fashioned e-mail system.
However, I will follow your example and make this public on social media, in case you missed it in
your overloaded inbox.
Your Crew Managers advised us, via WorkPlace, that we are no longer welcome in the ecosystem of
Norwegian, and our access to anything that is related to our Rednose community, the place that we
hold so dear, has been blocked.
After the events that we have all experienced around the Globe, due to the Covid-19, we fully
understand that a further restructuring is necessary for our beloved Company (for which we have
been working for so many years) to survive. In Spain we have actively contributed to keeping
Norwegian alive, last winter ’19-’20 with mostly voluntary salary cuts of 20% or more, in order to help
get onto a stronger footing, helping to reduce the crew costs by a total of €5.6 million. Earlier this
year it was certainly looking as if Focus2019 and NEXT were starting to bear fruit. Then the virus
struck…
As the pandemic measures started to take shape, and countries started to close down, aviation took
a big hit, and 90% or more of all air traffic ceased in a very short time period. Norwegian decided to
cancel all flights around the globe, and ended up with the current situation of 7 aircraft that are now
flying around Norway at the request of the government.
In Spain we were perfectly aware of the further financial implications of this pandemic, and we had
accepted the fact that we all would have to be suspended up to a certain point, even if the
paperwork that was filed for this legal process, requesting the suspensions, was not legally fully
correct. The government recognized the “force majeure” and we understood that it would be the
best way during the “state of alarm” that the whole country is in, until we find another solution, and
therefore did not attempt to challenge the grounds.
The next solution, covering the period ahead of us, was presented at the beginning of April. Once
again, the arguments on the measures and the documentation provided were not in line with reality,
and lacked proper and accurate information. However, we were confident that we would be able to
reach a solution together, through constructive dialogue. Alas… on the second day of our official
consultation, we were advised by your VP Crew Employer whose area of responsibility is Spain, that
Norwegian would no longer be participating in the process. This came as a complete shock to us, as
the final decision has always been with Norwegian as the employer, and therefore has always been
present during previous proceedings and negotiations due to the lack of decision making mandate
held by locally contracted HR service providers. It’s also the employer that has to start the legal
process for temporary suspensions. Needless to say, with the documentation completely incorrect,
and no employer to further discuss with, the process ended with no agreement. Without the input of
those who exercise control over the budgets, strategy, and decisions of the Norwegian controlled
subsidiary, no solution to cover the period after the “state of alarm” in Spain is lifted, could be
agreed upon. Thus, it appeared that Norwegian would have to pay the normal salaries again once
that happens. This, of course, would be a big financial burden for a company that is under a lot of
SEPLA NORWEGIAN COMPANY COUNCIL 1 MEMBER OF THE NORWEGIAN PILOT GROUP
09 May 2020
financial stress. You have pointed out yourself that the ramp-up phase is a knife-edge process, as
the costs cannot exceed the revenue and other financial gains.
We now find ourselves, in Spain, in a situation where our employer, NAS -- through its majority
owned subsidiary NARes -- does not want to recognise its employees or admit its responsibilities.
NAS has left its Spanish employees in the hands of the contracted HR Department, OSM Aviation
Spain (a company which Norwegian also partly owns), which has no funds of its own with which to
maintain the salaries and social security costs of the Norwegian Crew based in Spain. These
currently amount to just over €150.000 per month with the 75% rebate from the government on
Social Security payments, and will increase in the near future.
Norwegian Air Shuttle in Fornebu, by reason of exercise of control and ownership, for all intents and
purposes is the employer in Spain. Let’s not be in any doubt about that - it is not the HR department
that has been contracted in that is our employer. Furthermore;
It’s Norwegian that provides our uniforms, not HR (OSM).
It’s Norwegian that hands out our monthly roster, not OSM.
It’s Norwegian that provides us with the technology of the infrastructure that we communicate with,
not OSM.
It’s Norwegian that has been providing OSM Spain with monetary funds, in order for payroll to
transfer our salaries every month.
It’s Norwegian that provided us with the tools to make a decision which base we preferred to be
working from, not OSM.
It’s Norwegian that provided us all with the training in order to stay current to fly the Norwegian
aircraft, not OSM.
It’s Norwegian that gave all our First Officers a chance to become Captains and progress in their
careers, not OSM.
It’s Norwegian (AOCC) that calls us at 03:30, early in the morning, to tell us we have to operate a
flight at 05:00, and make sure our Norwegian guests and customers can reach their destination on
time and safely, not OSM…
It’s very clear, under Spanish law, who has the ultimate responsibility when it comes to the
employer-employee relationship, whether a subsidiary is operating or insolvent. Previous legal cases
involving Air Berlin and Ryanair have demonstrated this. I hope your legal team in Spain has advised
you properly, because we have our doubts, seeing the events that have taken place. During my
meeting with the SVP Crew Employer on the morning of April 24th, I advised her of the wrong path
that had been taken, and I warned of the bigger problems that this path will most likely create. That
is why I now contact you directly, as I have a feeling the message has not been transmitted properly,
or been filtered. You have often stated that you like to run into resistance, prior to the implementation
of your plans, so this is mine.
If Norwegian no longer has a use for its Spanish Crew, then, as a responsible employer, it should
commence the correct legal process to deal with its employees, as is set out in the laws of Spain. A
SEPLA NORWEGIAN COMPANY COUNCIL 2 MEMBER OF THE NORWEGIAN PILOT GROUP
09 May 2020
legal process that has not commenced, unlike what has been inaccurately said by the Norwegian
spokesperson in the media during the last week, following our filing of a court case here in Spain.
This court case, once it has ruled in our favour and correctly points to Norwegian as our employer,
will result in a big cost. A cost, we fear, that Norwegian might not be able to bear. That is something
that we do not want; to cause difficulties for our beloved company, that we have worked for for so
many years. However we are left with no other choice than to protect the basic rights of the
employees here in Spain.
The longer it takes to get an outcome, the bigger the bill becomes. With each month that passes, the
potential for this bill builds up in the order of €6 million, on top of a €21-33 million obligation incurred
by dismissing all crew. This is an obligation that any employer accepts when recruiting and
employing a worker.
As I have pointed out earlier, we are all ready to help Norwegian further, and help build the New
Norwegian into a prosperous airline that it deserves to be. We need to find a solution for the problem
that we are all in. I therefore urge you to come and sit down with us, to prevent the damage from
growing beyond a size that is no longer bearable for anybody. We are struggling to comprehend the
current policy of completely shutting us out of any dialogue, because solutions are impossible
without it."
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
a350lover
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:21 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 7:55 am

lesfalls wrote:

Main crew bases but as said in the presentations "focusing on LAX, LGW, JFK" it surely means that Spain, Italy and France are going to get cut with them trying to reinforce those bases instead with shorthaul aircraft (With OSL staying where it is). This is proven as the Spanish pilot and crew union reported to be completely abandoned from Norwegian with them in other words being "fired" without doing the typical spanish framework when companies fire people in Spain. At the following link you can see the whole letter below from SEPLA



Out of the total 1300 crews approximately which Norwegian employs in Spain, it's just maybe 400-500 dedicated to long haul operations, which were just based in Barcelona. I certainly see Norwegian being an international player which flies to Europe FROM the US, rather than the other way round. They fly mainly JFK/LAX to Europe. If they were to maintain the long haul ops, it would look less dispersed to operate with bases from the States rather than keepeing all in Europe CPH, FCO, CDG, BCN...

The majority of the Spanish crews operated short-haul in small bases of 3-5 planes flying holiday Spanish destinations-Scandinavia, i.e Malaga or Alicante. These are very likely to return. At first, as demand ramps up, I can see Norwegian operating these international links via OSL crews, but when they established in Spain they were aiming at lowing their home market costs in Norway, so I see a reason here to re-open the most successful international intra-Europe market for them.
 
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lesfalls
Posts: 3366
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Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 9:10 pm

a350lover wrote:
lesfalls wrote:

Main crew bases but as said in the presentations "focusing on LAX, LGW, JFK" it surely means that Spain, Italy and France are going to get cut with them trying to reinforce those bases instead with shorthaul aircraft (With OSL staying where it is). This is proven as the Spanish pilot and crew union reported to be completely abandoned from Norwegian with them in other words being "fired" without doing the typical spanish framework when companies fire people in Spain. At the following link you can see the whole letter below from SEPLA



Out of the total 1300 crews approximately which Norwegian employs in Spain, it's just maybe 400-500 dedicated to long haul operations, which were just based in Barcelona. I certainly see Norwegian being an international player which flies to Europe FROM the US, rather than the other way round. They fly mainly JFK/LAX to Europe. If they were to maintain the long haul ops, it would look less dispersed to operate with bases from the States rather than keepeing all in Europe CPH, FCO, CDG, BCN...

The majority of the Spanish crews operated short-haul in small bases of 3-5 planes flying holiday Spanish destinations-Scandinavia, i.e Malaga or Alicante. These are very likely to return. At first, as demand ramps up, I can see Norwegian operating these international links via OSL crews, but when they established in Spain they were aiming at lowing their home market costs in Norway, so I see a reason here to re-open the most successful international intra-Europe market for them.


I have to agree with you on the first point but regarding the second point of short-haul flying from BCN that doesn't seem to be the case with the news that came out today that Norwegian won't be flying to BCN for the next year:

https://aviacionaldia.com/2020/05/la-cr ... -prat.html (In Spanish)

In addition Norwegian has a big office next to El Prat with many of their positions from OSL , DUB and LGW being handled from there (the office is even bigger then their DUB one if I'm not mistaken). It will be interesting what happens to them.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5855
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 7:09 am

Norwegian has fulfilled loan terms.

Norwegian has fulfilled the conditions for crisis loans from the state. "Norwegian has completed the refinancing and secured government loan guarantees of NOK 3 billion," the company writes in a press release.


- Norwegian has done an impressive job of getting lenders and creditors to increase their equity. However, the company, together with other airlines, is still in front of demanding times. We hope that a strengthened Norwegian can continue to provide good air transport services even after the covid-19 outbreak, ”said Trade Minister Iselin Nybø in a press release.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4861
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 7:31 am

The two largest shareholder of Norwegian is now:

AerCap 15,9%
BOC Aviation: 12,67%
 
jonas12345
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:34 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 8:57 am

Someone83 wrote:
The two largest shareholder of Norwegian is now:

AerCap 15,9%
BOC Aviation: 12,67%


These really are strange times. I wonder how other airlines, particularly competitors will do business with these lessors going forward? "I'll take 5 aircraft please, but only if you don't fly in my markets"
 
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AirPacific747
Posts: 9718
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 9:58 am

Looks like the Chinese are really profiting from this virus. They now picked up 1/8 of the shares in the company for a relatively low amount because of this outbreak.

But hopefully this means Siberian overflight permits
 
Someone83
Posts: 4861
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 10:48 am

Someone83 wrote:
The two largest shareholder of Norwegian is now:

AerCap 15,9%
BOC Aviation: 12,67%



Add DP Aviation with 5,02%
 
tphuang
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 11:19 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Looks like the Chinese are really profiting from this virus. They now picked up 1/8 of the shares in the company for a relatively low amount because of this outbreak.

But hopefully this means Siberian overflight permits

picking up 1/8 of shares from a worthless company is a liability, not profiting.
 
moa999
Posts: 944
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 12:07 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
They now picked up 1/8 of the shares in the company for a relatively low amount


Not sure if having a bunch of real aircraft for which you paid actual $$s for converted to equity is a low amount.
 
Icaro
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:00 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 1:11 pm

Someone83 wrote:
The two largest shareholder of Norwegian is now:

AerCap 15,9%
BOC Aviation: 12,67%


I don’t find that to be a good solution for the future. I do understand that it is the only viable solution right now, but once the market starts to recover, Norwegian will be forced to keep a huge fleet, as returning the planes back to the lessors won’t be an option.
They might have to fly to non profitable markets. Again. Back to the same problems. They are going to use the taxpayers money to pay the lessors. I understand the movement from the lessors point of view, but the government should be smarter.
 
Etika
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:14 am

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 1:18 pm

I'm pretty sure the lessors will unload the shares as soon as they find someone to take them for a reasonable price (where "reasonable" is up to the companies). From the point of view of those companies, that share is liability and potential problem for conducting their core business.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4861
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Wed May 20, 2020 2:56 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
The two largest shareholder of Norwegian is now:

AerCap 15,9%
BOC Aviation: 12,67%



Add DP Aviation with 5,02%


And Avolon get 5,5%
 
Opus99
Posts: 976
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:23 am

Norwegian says it needs another round of financing as we enter the winter season. Norwegian government was initially reluctant to back norwegian but did in the end. Will they get a second round?

https://www.ft.com/content/7f6f0705-2af ... 47f2f0e8e6

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=ez43dC45
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 857
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:47 am

Groan. Again.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5202
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:47 am

why am I not surprised. The creditors and norwegian gov't better be ready to continue to put money in norwegian for a couple of years if they want to see this airline survive. It was amazing they approved the last round of restructuring.
 
SRGVA67
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:12 am

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:34 am

I can't see anyone in their right mind putting more money into this airline unless it will be completely restructured. The airline should cut it's operation down to European services out of Norway and get rid of it's longhaul operations out of other countries where nobody has waited for Norwegian to come along. I really can't understand why the Norwegian tax payer should help to save Norwegian's UK or other operations. Let it become a Norwegian flag carrier serving Norway's market requirements to Europe and it will have a chance to get more funds, if not, it 's simply throwing money into a bottomless pit
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3480
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:03 pm

They couldn’t make money in good times, I don’t get why they are worth saving.

Dropping fares and making routes accessible to more is great. But if you can’t operate a sustainable business on it, it isn’t worth it.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Capricorn
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:13 pm

Is anybody really surprised? Personally I don't see DY making it through the crisis. DY's LCC competitors (FR, U2, W6) are in way better shape and can probably survive the inevitable "fare war" that S21 will probably turn out to be. Additional with very low EU-US traffic, DY's main long haul market, and no change in sight, they have a big fat problem on their hands. The only future I can envision for Dy in near term is being an airline that mainly focuses on flights in and out of Norway, but that would require a massive downsizing. Or they will turn into the second coming of AZ, but I am not sure if the Norwegian government and taxpayer would like that.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:32 pm

With Vs pulling out of lgw and BA scaling back. It may be if they could hold on to next year they might be in a good position . A lot depends on how long this madness carries on though . Just impossible to run an airline with constantly changing restrictions at present
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:19 pm

It is only a matter of time before Norwegian collapses. Its business model, finances, structure are not meant for the pandemic (or post pandemic world). It was unprofitable for the most part before COVID19.
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:18 pm

Taxpayer money will be better invested in Wideroe to support remote cities.

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/wideroe-cu ... in-norway/
Caravelle lover
 
N1KE
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:47 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:19 pm

Won’t be the first and won’t be the last to come back to begging bowl again. Surely when the last round of financials were completed the money men must have known this was going to be happening? Cannot believe they are unaware after doing a lot to save them last time. Hopefully they can get it sorted, but one day someone is going to say no and they will fold. Can hardly be doing customer confidence any good. Unfortunately it is a tough environment out there.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 455
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:20 pm

N1KE wrote:
Won’t be the first and won’t be the last to come back to begging bowl again. Surely when the last round of financials were completed the money men must have known this was going to be happening? Cannot believe they are unaware after doing a lot to save them last time. Hopefully they can get it sorted, but one day someone is going to say no and they will fold. Can hardly be doing customer confidence any good. Unfortunately it is a tough environment out there.

The majority of shareholders are aircraft leasing companies who have no other customers who want the planes right now but it makes no sense to keep Norwegian flying just to make payments so I suspect they're going to sell everything that isn't nailed down to keep the company paying leases as long as possible then filling for bankruptcy.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7077
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:22 am

Opus99 wrote:
Norwegian says it needs another round of financing as we enter the winter season. Norwegian government was initially reluctant to back norwegian but did in the end. Will they get a second round?

Norwegian need all the financing they can get. But it will hardly make much difference to how the company will evolve.

Norwegian is no longer really a "norwegian" company. It is now mostly owned by its leasing companies, especially Chinese banks. They own the planes, and they will operate the company when it is cheaper for them to have Norwegian pay a small part of the leasing fees than just parking the planes in a dessert. The alternative - to place the planes with profitable airlines - does not exist for the time being due to the COVID crisis.

What money Norway taxpayers may dump on Norwegian, that will hardly influence the operation of the company. It will be a direct support of Chinese banks, and no more.

Norway should do something about it. It is not healthy for a country like Norway to have a substantial part of their physical infrastructure owned and run by foreign banks which are owned by a communist dictatorship placed on the opposite side of the globe. And it isn't needed at all. Norway has fully the economic power to have full control of her important air infrastructure. It is only a question about getting organized by true professionals, and not by adventurists like the original, former Norwegian leadership.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8049
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Norwegian Seeks Another Round of Financing

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:01 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Norway should do something about it. It is not healthy for a country like Norway to have a substantial part of their physical infrastructure owned and run by foreign banks which are owned by a communist dictatorship placed on the opposite side of the globe. And it isn't needed at all. Norway has fully the economic power to have full control of her important air infrastructure. It is only a question about getting organized by true professionals, and not by adventurists like the original, former Norwegian leadership.


And Norway does. NAS isn't important air infrastructure - it's a money-losing hobby.

One needs to be careful about closing off foreign direct investment. Norway doesn't need the capital but it does need competition. It also needs places to invest the sovereign wealth fund.
 
Someone83
Posts: 4861
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:33 am

Norwegian never said they were fully financed when they refinanced this Spring. They always said that they would need more money later this year or early next. So not really anything new here
 
LJ
Posts: 5334
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: DY Financial Discussion - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:34 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Norwegian never said they were fully financed when they refinanced this Spring. They always said that they would need more money later this year or early next. So not really anything new here


Yet, it's now only 4 months after the restructuring. I agree, it fits the definition of "later this year", but I would guess many assumed that "later" would be Q4 2020, not end of August 2020. Moreover, if they need money now, one can almost assume a third round will be coming as well. It's not that Winter is highly profitable or cash generating for airlines.

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