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majano
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Antarius wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

In the article there is no mentioning of 787 or A350 as the replacement, just that the replacement would be a single model.


Sure, but the only reasonable options are 787 or a350.

It's not like they're going to order the 748. The 777X is an absurd upgauge from a a332 so that's not it either.


A330neo is an option.

But the main point was, that reuters did not talk about 787 or A350 as the thread title implies.

Thank you for this, I certainly thought that the thread title was based on the contents of the article.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:11 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
zkncj wrote:

LAX isn’t the same as it used to be, it was once needed to be an transit point between Auckland/New Zealand and North America.

That has changed with the 787, allowing more direct point to point routes to be enabled.

A350/787s would allow VA to do non stop services in deeper America, they wouldn’t need to be daily.


I am not sure you are right.

In addition it seems Virgin Australia has a codeshare agreement with Delta.

I just do not understand your comment. Is it based on something you really know or is it something you just want to say?


VA and DL have a fully immunized JV on the Trans Pacific corridor. Any long term expansion whether if its VA or DL will very likely be to a DL hub (e.g SEA or ATL).

And all the people here talking about all this grow need to realize that Virgin can't add another flight to the US unless Delta adds one first due to the joint venture agreement with the Delta pilots.
 
redroo
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:22 pm

I think the first question to ask is ... do they need widebodies at all?

Is international making enough money to warrant a fleet of widebodies? Is there enough potential for growth? I would argue growth potential is very limited so it will always be a niche operation.

Then domestically, sure you CAN fill the a330s to PER but do you need to run a fleet of widebodies for it? If the whole thing is marginal (and let’s be honest they’re shocking at consistently turning a profit in a two horse race) then maybe returning to 737 only flying is the smarter thing to do?
 
rigo
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:23 pm

It would be nice to hear some positive news about Boeing, but as a passenger, between a 787 and an A350 I'll take the latter any day.
 
Thatcher
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Out of interest, why are the A300s operated by "Virgin Australia International"?


The A330s are on the VAi AOC, alongside the 77Ws and the former VANZ (Pacific Blue) 738s.


AFAICS (two different sources), only the A330s are operated by VAI.

I understand about different AOCs, my question was why? Tax reasons, different pay structures?


There are 'foreign ownership' restrictions on Australian international airlines, not so with domestic airlines. VA is majority foreign owned, so VAi was formed to get around the international restrictions. And everyone (mostly) pretends that is just fine.

The A330 can / do operate internationally. Doesn't sound right that the 77W are not operated by VAi though.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:33 pm

I think the first question to ask is ... do they need widebodies at all?

Is international making enough money to warrant a fleet of widebodies? Is there enough potential for growth? I would argue growth potential is very limited so it will always be a niche operation.


It is generally accepted that VA's LAX operations are profitable despite fleet limitations meaning they can't do daily services from MEL and BNE. It is unlikely that they would consider withdrawing from US operations as it would leave too big a hole in their corporate and Velcity offerings unless DL seriously ramped up its South Pacific operations.
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SCFlyer
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:40 pm

redroo wrote:
I think the first question to ask is ... do they need widebodies at all?

Is international making enough money to warrant a fleet of widebodies? Is there enough potential for growth? I would argue growth potential is very limited so it will always be a niche operation.

Then domestically, sure you CAN fill the a330s to PER but do you need to run a fleet of widebodies for it? If the whole thing is marginal (and let’s be honest they’re shocking at consistently turning a profit in a two horse race) then maybe returning to 737 only flying is the smarter thing to do?


Scurrah was quoted in a paywall article by singling out LAX as one of the few (if not only) routes doing very well for VAi, in addition to crediting DL for the long-time partnership on the Trans-Pacific corridor. If there is limited growth on the US corridor, and regardless if DL or VA takes up the next expansion, it will likely to be to a DL hub, such as SEA, SLC or ATL.

If anything, others have argued that VA should reduce from 11 to 8 widebodies for daily LAX from the 3 East Coast Cities and BNE-HND (with selected SYD/MEL-PER and weekend NAN work). It could also be argued that VAi Short Haul could be reduced to East Coast - AKL, NAN and DPS only.

Going back to "domestic" was a contentious issue for NZ back when the Borghetti/Luxon stoush got really heated, when it was reported both egos got to the surface with allegations against both former CEOs.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:51 pm

TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.

They have tried to grow with HKT/JNB/AUH/HKG etc and failed, not sure what they will do if HND doesn’t work, hopefully an ANA deal will help, where else can they go?

So 789 with SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX daily and BNE-HND and some PER flying, say 10 frames 1 configuration for a start. Maybe Boeing can buy back the owned 77Ws? And the leases one plus the leases on the A330s can run their course with the aircraft returning as they expire.
 
redroo
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:51 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
redroo wrote:
I think the first question to ask is ... do they need widebodies at all?

Is international making enough money to warrant a fleet of widebodies? Is there enough potential for growth? I would argue growth potential is very limited so it will always be a niche operation.

Then domestically, sure you CAN fill the a330s to PER but do you need to run a fleet of widebodies for it? If the whole thing is marginal (and let’s be honest they’re shocking at consistently turning a profit in a two horse race) then maybe returning to 737 only flying is the smarter thing to do?


Scurrah was quoted in a paywall article by singling out LAX as one of the few (if not only) routes doing very well for VAi, in addition to crediting DL for the long-time partnership on the Trans-Pacific corridor. If there is limited growth on the US corridor, and regardless if DL or VA takes up the next expansion, it will likely to be to a DL hub, such as SEA, SLC or ATL.

If anything, others have argued that VA should reduce from 11 to 8 widebodies for daily LAX from the 3 East Coast Cities and BNE-HND (with selected SYD/MEL-PER and weekend NAN work). It could also be argued that VAi Short Haul could be reduced to East Coast - AKL, NAN and DPS only.

Going back to "domestic" was a contentious issue for NZ back when the Borghetti/Luxon stoush got really heated, when it was reported both egos got to the surface with allegations against both former CEOs.



They may be profitable but I would doubt they are returning the cost of capital needed to fund a widebody fleet. Virgins profit is so low and variable.
 
smi0006
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:00 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.

They have tried to grow with HKT/JNB/AUH/HKG etc and failed, not sure what they will do if HND doesn’t work, hopefully an ANA deal will help, where else can they go?

So 789 with SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX daily and BNE-HND and some PER flying, say 10 frames 1 configuration for a start. Maybe Boeing can buy back the owned 77Ws? And the leases one plus the leases on the A330s can run their course with the aircraft returning as they expire.


I actually think they could make MEL/PER -JNB work with 789 for the former and 330 for the later. Last time they tried MEL-PER CASA has yet to reduce its ETOPs requirements which mean a massive detour for the 77W - from my understanding yields and loads were good.

With the new AA/AS alliance I suspect QF will beat them to the punch on SYD-SEA, perhaps VA would consider MEL/BNE-SEA, but not sure the route can support carrier yet alone too. Would a 359 have the legs for SYD-ATL, to take in UAs SYD-IAH, and QF/AA SYD-DFW?

But I agree - VA needs to keep its fleet simple, ATR/737/widebody
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:06 am

smi0006 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.

They have tried to grow with HKT/JNB/AUH/HKG etc and failed, not sure what they will do if HND doesn’t work, hopefully an ANA deal will help, where else can they go?

So 789 with SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX daily and BNE-HND and some PER flying, say 10 frames 1 configuration for a start. Maybe Boeing can buy back the owned 77Ws? And the leases one plus the leases on the A330s can run their course with the aircraft returning as they expire.


I actually think they could make MEL/PER -JNB work with 789 for the former and 330 for the later. Last time they tried MEL-PER CASA has yet to reduce its ETOPs requirements which mean a massive detour for the 77W - from my understanding yields and loads were good.

With the new AA/AS alliance I suspect QF will beat them to the punch on SYD-SEA, perhaps VA would consider MEL/BNE-SEA, but not sure the route can support carrier yet alone too. Would a 359 have the legs for SYD-ATL, to take in UAs SYD-IAH, and QF/AA SYD-DFW?

But I agree - VA needs to keep its fleet simple, ATR/737/widebody


ATL is unlikely to occur, but if SYD-ATL happens, that route is likely to be done by DL themselves under the JV agreement. Supposedly the next new route out of the DL/VA JV is to be operated by DL (either entirely) or a split operation with VA. Saying that, It's unlikely that VA will be flying to ATL anytime soon.

PER-JNB, would likely be dependent on SA's financial situation. Saying that, I can't see VA entering PER-JNB either (unless if there's some sort of approved JV with SA, which is unlikely to occur).

I do agree with the QF/AS and AS/AA codeshares, I also suspect that QF/AS/AA is likely to beat DL/VA to the punch on the SYD-SEA.
 
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zeke
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:10 am

tullamarine wrote:
Having said that, I wonder if they are seriously looking at replacing their widebody fleets given the depressed WB market means the owned 77Ws are going to be hard to shift at anything approaching book value.


Their 77W also have the small cargo doors making them undesirable.

scbriml wrote:
AFAICS (two different sources), only the A330s are operated by VAI.

I understand about different AOCs, my question was why? Tax reasons, different pay structures?


Virgin Australia is majority foreign owned, in order for any Australian airline to fly international under Australian Law it needs to be majority Australian owned. To meet the law, Virgin Australia has a subsidiary Virgin Australia International which is majority Australian owned and does the international routes.

ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.


They don’t carry much cargo, so the less capable 789 would be fine for them.


redroo wrote:
They may be profitable but I would doubt they are returning the cost of capital needed to fund a widebody fleet. Virgins profit is so low and variable.


Far too many on this site thing aircraft are financed for free, good to see you give it due consideration.
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questions
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:16 am

SCFlyer wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.

They have tried to grow with HKT/JNB/AUH/HKG etc and failed, not sure what they will do if HND doesn’t work, hopefully an ANA deal will help, where else can they go?

So 789 with SYD/MEL/BNE-LAX daily and BNE-HND and some PER flying, say 10 frames 1 configuration for a start. Maybe Boeing can buy back the owned 77Ws? And the leases one plus the leases on the A330s can run their course with the aircraft returning as they expire.


I actually think they could make MEL/PER -JNB work with 789 for the former and 330 for the later. Last time they tried MEL-PER CASA has yet to reduce its ETOPs requirements which mean a massive detour for the 77W - from my understanding yields and loads were good.

With the new AA/AS alliance I suspect QF will beat them to the punch on SYD-SEA, perhaps VA would consider MEL/BNE-SEA, but not sure the route can support carrier yet alone too. Would a 359 have the legs for SYD-ATL, to take in UAs SYD-IAH, and QF/AA SYD-DFW?

But I agree - VA needs to keep its fleet simple, ATR/737/widebody


ATL is unlikely to occur, but if SYD-ATL happens, that route is likely to be done by DL themselves under the JV agreement. Supposedly the next new route out of the DL/VA JV is to be operated by DL (either entirely) or a split operation with VA. Saying that, It's unlikely that VA will be flying to ATL anytime soon.

PER-JNB, would likely be dependent on SA's financial situation. Saying that, I can't see VA entering PER-JNB either (unless if there's some sort of approved JV with SA, which is unlikely to occur).

I do agree with the QF/AS and AS/AA codeshares, I also suspect that QF/AS/AA is likely to beat DL/VA to the punch on the SYD-SEA.


It would seem Australia to SEA would be have to be heavy O&D. Otherwise, geographically it doesn’t makes sense.

If going to the US, why fly to SEA vs LAX or SFO?

Who would fly Australia-SEA-Canada to clear US immigration/customs and then do the same in Canada? Maybe if they were driving, but still doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Does Australia-SEA have a lot of O&D traffic not being served?
 
tullamarine
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:07 am

It would seem Australia to SEA would be have to be heavy O&D. Otherwise, geographically it doesn’t makes sense.

If going to the US, why fly to SEA vs LAX or SFO?

Who would fly Australia-SEA-Canada to clear US immigration/customs and then do the same in Canada? Maybe if they were driving, but still doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Does Australia-SEA have a lot of O&D traffic not being served?


I'm not sure that there is sufficient demand to justify direct AU-SEA services. From a tourism point of view, there is a bit of NS demand for Alaskan cruises and some NW demand for skiing but, as AC has discovered with nearby YVR, it is lumpy. From a corporate point of view, there would be a little bit of demand for companies such as Microsoft but I don't think it is enormous. The LAX (AA & DL) and SFO (UA) hubs provide ample connections; the addition of AS's much smaller hub in SEA is not that compelling for transit pax.
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Jefford717
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:26 am

Would the rumored 787-10 with an increased MTOW of about 10-15k lb, 1-3% PIP, and with about 300 seats (some cargo?) have long enough leg to fly west from LAX-BNE/SYD/MEL all year?
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:37 am

The 787 would definitely be easier to fill than the 77W for VA and they probably should pick that over the 359.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:22 am

Jefford717 wrote:
Would the rumored 787-10 with an increased MTOW of about 10-15k lb, 1-3% PIP, and with about 300 seats (some cargo?) have long enough leg to fly west from LAX-BNE/SYD/MEL all year?


Not unless it was a true ER version surely. The 789 imo is the best aircraft for VA as I say particularly if they want to do SYD/MEL to PER still.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:37 am

You likely need wide-bodies for the trans-con Australia flights, also to move cargo. As for just being a regional carrier, that isn't a bad thing---they could just feed DL for flights to the USA, especially with NZ completely fragmenting the market by bringing passengers across the Tasman with the ability to reach as far as (starting NW20) Newark (NYC) and Qantas set to begin by 2023 or 2024 a nonstop to JFK from SYD. Transfers will be handled domestically or in AKL instead of at LAX. As such, I see VA needing at most 10 wide-bodies...and maybe they would be wiser to launch regional destinations like DPS or BKK. (VA used to fly to HKT but exited that market.) Then the other wide-bodies would go to LAX, needing 4 frames total, along with trans-con, HND, and SIN if launched.
 
tullamarine
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:16 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
You likely need wide-bodies for the trans-con Australia flights, also to move cargo. As for just being a regional carrier, that isn't a bad thing---they could just feed DL for flights to the USA, especially with NZ completely fragmenting the market by bringing passengers across the Tasman with the ability to reach as far as (starting NW20) Newark (NYC) and Qantas set to begin by 2023 or 2024 a nonstop to JFK from SYD. Transfers will be handled domestically or in AKL instead of at LAX. As such, I see VA needing at most 10 wide-bodies...and maybe they would be wiser to launch regional destinations like DPS or BKK. (VA used to fly to HKT but exited that market.) Then the other wide-bodies would go to LAX, needing 4 frames total, along with trans-con, HND, and SIN if launched.

Few problems:
- NZ service to EWR (1 789) is hardly going to fragment the trans-Pacific market that is already about 16 widebodies a day each way.
- Sunrise flight to JFK will largely replace the current LAX-JFK service. Given QF are targetting a 20-30% premium, it is hard to say what effect it will have on demand.
- VA probably don't have much interest in flying widebodies to DPS. They already service it with 737s and it is fairly saturated market.
- VA only serviced HKT at a time when they were still ramping up LAX services. It basically used a 77W on a weekend when it would otherwise be on the ground. It wasn't a long-term play.
- VA has no interest in serving BKK or SIN. Both are already well serviced and super-competitive (JQ just exited the SIN-MEL market) not to mention VA already codeshares on every SQ service to SIN from AU so it doesn't add anything to its product offerings.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:34 am

Training pilots from a 777 to a 787 is a condensed difference course so that gives the 787 the edge. Legit question, is it similar for A330 to A350?

Coming out of left field, the 778 is hurting for orders and VA already has the 777... 788/9 and 778 is a formidable combo.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:54 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Training pilots from a 777 to a 787 is a condensed difference course so that gives the 787 the edge. Legit question, is it similar for A330 to A350?

Coming out of left field, the 778 is hurting for orders and VA already has the 777... 788/9 and 778 is a formidable combo.


Some countries allow cross crewing A330-A350 and 777-787.

The 778 is dead as a pax aircraft, VA don’t need that kind of range. Even 788/789 I just don’t see a need for the 788, keep it simple with a small fleet in the same configuration with the 789.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:56 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Training pilots from a 777 to a 787 is a condensed difference course so that gives the 787 the edge. Legit question, is it similar for A330 to A350?


Yes, both the 777-787 and 330-350 can be a common type rating.

Incidentally just this week AIPA submitted an offer to Qantas that included the A350 being operated as a common type rating with the A330. It will be interesting to see whether Qantas accept that offer, as it included raising A330 pay to 747 pay. It might be cheaper to have two separate work groups with the A330 rates remaining largely unchanged except for a % increase. But anyway, this is totally off topic to VA!
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VV
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:25 am

Is it that important whether Virgin Australia orders A350 or 787?

Seriously?
 
ewt340
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:40 am

They only need widebodies for flights to Tokyo and LA. They don't actually have that much long-haul routes anyway.
B787-9 and A350-900 seems like the only reasonable options as many would agree.

Most of their fleet are B737-800 anyway. And some of them are being transferred to Tigerair to replace their A320.
So I think it would be suitable for them to go all Boeing. Since it would streamline their operations better.

The only problem they faced now is the MAX debacle.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:05 am

Obvious 789 order tbh. They made a mistake going for a split fleet and ordering 77Ws, and they seem to know it. 787 is the only one size fits all’ choice.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:21 am

Armodeen wrote:
Obvious 789 order tbh. They made a mistake going for a split fleet and ordering 77Ws, and they seem to know it. 787 is the only one size fits all’ choice.


I wonder if they should have gone second hand to start either 744s or 343s and waited for the 787 or A350? 343s and 332s then 350s Replacing the 343s might have made sense?
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:22 am

Armodeen wrote:
Obvious 789 order tbh. They made a mistake going for a split fleet and ordering 77Ws, and they seem to know it. 787 is the only one size fits all’ choice.


The only reason the A330s were introduced to the fleet was because a disgruntled Borghetti, who was overlooked for the CEO position at QF, and then decided that his modus operandi, was to remanufacture Qantas out of Virgin Blue.

From my own personal perspective, he should have kept DJ the way that it was as a LCC to QF and JQ. And then progressively reinvented V Australia as VA, a full service airline, to compete against QF. If they’d staged the introduction of the A330 at about 3-4 per year, they MAY have had a viable network of about 12-15 jets that could have serviced HKG, SIN, BKK, NRT and perhaps even HNL. And that is my opinion.

Even with only 25-30 or so 738s (and 35-40 in DJ), plus the A330s, and the 777Ws, I believe that VA might be a different beast today. Again, my personal opinion.


Rgds,
C1973
Cheers,
C1973


B707, B717, B727, B734, B737, B738, B743, B77W, A300, A320, A332, A333, A339, A388, BAe146, Cessna 206.
 
redroo
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:24 am

zeke wrote:
tullamarine wrote:
Having said that, I wonder if they are seriously looking at replacing their widebody fleets given the depressed WB market means the owned 77Ws are going to be hard to shift at anything approaching book value.


Their 77W also have the small cargo doors making them undesirable.

scbriml wrote:
AFAICS (two different sources), only the A330s are operated by VAI.

I understand about different AOCs, my question was why? Tax reasons, different pay structures?


Virgin Australia is majority foreign owned, in order for any Australian airline to fly international under Australian Law it needs to be majority Australian owned. To meet the law, Virgin Australia has a subsidiary Virgin Australia International which is majority Australian owned and does the international routes.

ZK-NBT wrote:
TBH I think the 789 is the best aircraft here particularly if they want to still do SYD/MEL-PER runs, Make BNE/MEL-LAX daily and if there is a need they can run additional peak season ex SYD-LAX if they are allowed with the DL partnership.


They don’t carry much cargo, so the less capable 789 would be fine for them.


redroo wrote:
They may be profitable but I would doubt they are returning the cost of capital needed to fund a widebody fleet. Virgins profit is so low and variable.


Far too many on this site thing aircraft are financed for free, good to see you give it due consideration.



Work in finance, married to aviation zeke :-)
 
flyingisthebest
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:46 am

Here is another spammer to throw in the works.

Etihad have some 35K’s in France they must take delivery, why not give them to VA who might actually use them? It’s probably better given to VA then just parked in France?

Personally the 787-9 is best suited for VA but the wildcard is VA going to also fly SYD/MEL/BNE-JFK/LHR? Markets needed to be served for Velocity Membership...

If they do some project sunrise flights then I can see the 359/35KULR might be better suited, given they want 1 single type.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:57 am

Why order new ones, right now is the best time to wait. Recent events (COVIT-19) might bring a few airlines to the point that they will need reduce fleets and then some used 787 might become available. *cough* *cough* Norwegian *cough*
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:58 am

flyingisthebest wrote:
Here is another spammer to throw in the works.

Etihad have some 35K’s in France they must take delivery, why not give them to VA who might actually use them? It’s probably better given to VA then just parked in France?

Personally the 787-9 is best suited for VA but the wildcard is VA going to also fly SYD/MEL/BNE-JFK/LHR? Markets needed to be served for Velocity Membership...

If they do some project sunrise flights then I can see the 359/35KULR might be better suited, given they want 1 single type.


Unlikely that VA will be doing ULR anytime soon, not for the foreseeable future if at all.

More than likely it'll be a modest replacement of 8-9x of a single widebody type. Which replaces the current total of 11 widebodies (6x A330s and 5x 77Ws).

The question is the financing for the replacement, which includes trying to sell the 4x 77Ws and the costs of returning the A330s and the sole lessed 77W back to the lessor.
 
Chris8874
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:27 am

Hi All,

Long time reader, first time posting.

Do Virgin Atlantic have any extra frames on order that Virgin Australia could piggy back off?

Chris
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:49 am

Chris8874 wrote:
Hi All,

Long time reader, first time posting.

Do Virgin Atlantic have any extra frames on order that Virgin Australia could piggy back off?

Chris


VS has A339neos and A35K (350-1000s) on order.

VA and VS are nothing more than sisters that share the same name. Unlikely that VA will piggy back off VS.

Both carriers have different owners (VS - 49% owned by DL, whereas VA has the complicated ownership of 20% each to EY, SQ, HNA and Nanshan).
Virgin group only has a minority shareholding in VA, although they own 51% of VS.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:09 am

Armodeen wrote:
Obvious 789 order tbh. They made a mistake going for a split fleet and ordering 77Ws, and they seem to know it. 787 is the only one size fits all’ choice.


No it isn't. As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side. The A350-900 is bigger than the A330-200, but the A350-1000 is a perfect 777-300ER replacement. In terms of long range performance, the A350-900 should beat the 787-9 any day, on shorter regional flights the 787 should be superior.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:27 am

Chipmunk1973 wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
Obvious 789 order tbh. They made a mistake going for a split fleet and ordering 77Ws, and they seem to know it. 787 is the only one size fits all’ choice.


The only reason the A330s were introduced to the fleet was because a disgruntled Borghetti, who was overlooked for the CEO position at QF, and then decided that his modus operandi, was to remanufacture Qantas out of Virgin Blue.

From my own personal perspective, he should have kept DJ the way that it was as a LCC to QF and JQ. And then progressively reinvented V Australia as VA, a full service airline, to compete against QF. If they’d staged the introduction of the A330 at about 3-4 per year, they MAY have had a viable network of about 12-15 jets that could have serviced HKG, SIN, BKK, NRT and perhaps even HNL. And that is my opinion.

Even with only 25-30 or so 738s (and 35-40 in DJ), plus the A330s, and the 777Ws, I believe that VA might be a different beast today. Again, my personal opinion.


Rgds,
C1973


The only reason? Got a source for that? These assertions re VA tend to become assumed truth on Anet when there's no real basis for them. So... link?

The 77W cargo door issue... don't only 2 of them have smaller cargo doors?

The assumption of EY just flicking them a bunch of 350s... I mean, really? That's not how the world works - the terms, the internal fitout etc etc... there is so much more to it.

The 330s are completely misused on domestic by both VA and QF - as would the 787 and 350 - and I'd assume they would be replaced by 737-10s with a Mint style business class and a bump in frequency.

Dailies to LA from MEL, SYD and BNE would make sense and these routes are apparently profitable.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:36 am

This airline has been debating 787s or A350s for years.

Let's see if an order really happens this year.
Good moaning!
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:01 pm

I see a win for the 787-9 here. Right capacity for them and excellent range.
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:40 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
Would the rumored 787-10 with an increased MTOW of about 10-15k lb, 1-3% PIP, and with about 300 seats (some cargo?) have long enough leg to fly west from LAX-BNE/SYD/MEL all year?

Please the link the Boeing article for this.
 
Jefford717
Posts: 59
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:18 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
DylanHarvey wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Would the rumored 787-10 with an increased MTOW of about 10-15k lb, 1-3% PIP, and with about 300 seats (some cargo?) have long enough leg to fly west from LAX-BNE/SYD/MEL all year?

Please the link the Boeing article for this.


No official word from Boeing yet. It’s just a rumor at this stage as I mentioned. It’s an article written by Jon Ostrower of The Air Current after Air New Zealand ordered the 787-10
 
klkla
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:25 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side.


Being a tad on the small side is probably better in this case because it will help to improve yields and as a result of that likely improve profits, as well.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:08 pm

Jefford717 wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
DylanHarvey wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
Would the rumored 787-10 with an increased MTOW of about 10-15k lb, 1-3% PIP, and with about 300 seats (some cargo?) have long enough leg to fly west from LAX-BNE/SYD/MEL all year?

Please the link the Boeing article for this.


No official word from Boeing yet. It’s just a rumor at this stage as I mentioned. It’s an article written by Jon Ostrower of The Air Current after Air New Zealand ordered the 787-10

I know haha. It was a bit tongue in cheek on my part. We don’t know it for sure, I’ve read the article. The increase will more or less equal what the 77E can do. Which is what ANZ will want.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:35 pm

klkla wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side.


Being a tad on the small side is probably better in this case because it will help to improve yields and as a result of that likely improve profits, as well.


That point applies just as much to an A350-900, which is also smaller than a 777-300ER.

Sydney-Los Angeles is a 14-15 hour flight. Melbourne is up to 16 hours. While it can do it, there are really not many airlines that would normally choose a 787 over an A350 or 777 for such a job. Those that do never ordered (or has yet to receive) the A350 in the first place. It is definitely also easier to retain the onboard bar on the A350, as opposed to the 787.
 
klkla
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:47 pm

VSMUT wrote:
klkla wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side.


Being a tad on the small side is probably better in this case because it will help to improve yields and as a result of that likely improve profits, as well.


That point applies just as much to an A350-900, which is also smaller than a 777-300ER.

Sydney-Los Angeles is a 14-15 hour flight. Melbourne is up to 16 hours. While it can do it, there are really not many airlines that would normally choose a 787 over an A350 or 777 for such a job. Those that do never ordered (or has yet to receive) the A350 in the first place. It is definitely also easier to retain the onboard bar on the A350, as opposed to the 787.


Don't tell that to United, which does just fine with 787-9 to Singapore as an example. The 787 can easily do a 16 hour flight or any flight currently operated by Virgin Australia. It would also me more optimal on the shorter domestic transcons than the A350. If the decision is between two types, one for domestic/regional and the other for long haul the 787/350 combo makes sense. If they decide to choose only one the 787 makes more sense.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:56 pm

They should wait for the 777X / 778
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 996
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:00 pm

VSMUT wrote:
klkla wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side.


Being a tad on the small side is probably better in this case because it will help to improve yields and as a result of that likely improve profits, as well.


That point applies just as much to an A350-900, which is also smaller than a 777-300ER.


It's much larger than an A330-200, however.
 
seat1a
Posts: 607
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:10 pm

How about this? VA flies A359 LAX-SYD/MEL/BNE daily, as partner with Delta. Perhaps look at JFK-SYD/BNE in the future. Purely North American international ops being fed by Delta. Call it a day. Asking for a friend.
 
questions
Posts: 2337
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:53 pm

While the 787 or A350 may not be optimal for transcon flights, does having one type serving both domestic transcon and international provide utilization efficiencies that offset the deficiencies?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:02 pm

seat1a wrote:
How about this? VA flies A359 LAX-SYD/MEL/BNE daily, as partner with Delta. Perhaps look at JFK-SYD/BNE in the future. Purely North American international ops being fed by Delta. Call it a day. Asking for a friend.


DL pilots wouldn't allow that (see discussion above).
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
klkla wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
[As a replacement for both the A330-200 and 777-300ER, the 787 is a tad on the small side. It is a perfect A330 replacement, but the 787-9 is way smaller than the 777-300ER and the 787-10 is both quite a bit smaller and completely lacks the range of the 777.

OTOH, the A350 is a tad on the bigger side.


Being a tad on the small side is probably better in this case because it will help to improve yields and as a result of that likely improve profits, as well.


That point applies just as much to an A350-900, which is also smaller than a 777-300ER.

Sydney-Los Angeles is a 14-15 hour flight. Melbourne is up to 16 hours. While it can do it, there are really not many airlines that would normally choose a 787 over an A350 or 777 for such a job. Those that do never ordered (or has yet to receive) the A350 in the first place. It is definitely also easier to retain the onboard bar on the A350, as opposed to the 787.


The 789 flies both routes every single day just fine. Sure, QF, AA and UA don't operate the A350 (which might be your point) but that doesn't seem relevant as the 789 is hardly uneconomical over such distances.

For flexibility the 789 is the best option for VA. They really don't need the capacity of the 77W, and they would benefit from some upward pressure on yields. They are barely profitable operationally, and loss making overall, so grand expansion plans are a bit far fetched.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 176
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Re: Virgin Australia considering widebody order this year, 787’s or A350’s to replace A332’s and 77W’s

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:02 pm

If it's true that they're frequently struggling to fill the 77Ws I see the 789 as the most likely choice here. That said, if they see a need for a 77W sized aircraft in the future the A359 might make more sense allowing them to keep an easier door open for the A35K. I'm putting my money on the 789 though. A359 seems like too much capacity to replace the A332s and while it does better filling the capacity gap towards the 77W than the 789, I'm not convinced it is a gap they need to fill. The 789 is the better balanced one for their mission profile in my view.

That said if we see an A339/A359 order or just the A359 (and maybe the A35K) I won't be surprised either. I just see it as a bit less likely especially with Boeing wanting to extended the 787 backlog a tad more.
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