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WN732
Posts: 824
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:29 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WN historical aircraft turn time gate usage has slowed down since the introduction of the 737-800NG/MAX8.
WN use to on average turn 12 planes per gate.
With the addition of the 800/MAX8 it is now down to 9 per gate. This is because it takes 20 minutes longer to turn a 800 vs 700.


That is an interesting statistic. From that I can assume:
9 x 175 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,520 passengers per gate day
12 x 143 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,746 passengers per gate day

SAN Diego airport is one of the few that reports Gate Utilization rates
Gates
11 Terminal 1 East (Southwest gates)
8 Terminal 1 West
13 Terminal 2 East
15 Terminal 2 West
4 Terminal 2 International
51 Total

Gate Utilization Rate (passengers daily) for 2019
2,360 Terminal 1 East
515 Terminal 1 West
1,326 Terminal 2 East
1,385 Terminal 2 West
245 Terminal 2 International
1,355 Net Gate Utilization

Actual data is a little lower than your estimate, but SAN airport is takeoff limited at night, so that could explain the difference.

As San Diego has been trying to replace Terminal 1 for over a decade, it seems logical that they would report gate utilization rates, but it seems like a useful metric. I wonder why more airports don't report it as part of their traffic reports.


Amazing that the circle of death runs almost double the passengers than any of the other gate areas.
 
hereandthere41
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:31 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:58 pm

32andBelow wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Denver to Honolulu is 5,415 kilometers / 2,924 nautical miles.
MAX-8 has a still air range of 6,570 km / 3,550 nautical miles.
Does anyone think this route is a possibility?



I assume that the fleet will be growing by the end of the year, one way or another.

Not with 5,431ft elevation 35+ degrees' temperature (Celsius) during the summer.

Michael

People from Denver are going to want to go to Hawaii in the winter.


They already are! They're flying United.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:26 pm

Interesting... and obviously this analysis is overly simplistic at best:

Looking at the continental US east to west WN has 3 principle strongholds:

1. BWI - East Coast nearly midway up the cost..
2. MDW - About 1/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated slightly biased to the north.
3. DEN - About 2/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated rather centrally north/south.

What would be considered the largest volume west coast airport? OAK?

I know in the south it would be Atlanta and DAL/HOU

How important is PHX to them?

LAS is interesting because they are key Origins and Destinations.

Quick list of primary bases for WN:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago–Midway
Dallas–Love
Denver
Houston–Hobby
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Oakland
Orlando
Phoenix–Sky Harbor

Interesting no bases in the NorthEast nor the PacificNorthWest.

Anyway,back on topic, I wouldn't have thought they would grow so much in Denver either...
Last edited by FiscAutTecGarte on Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
acavpics
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:29 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
People in the secondary New England cities like MHT/PVD need more westbound flights on WN. Aside from flights to MDW, I’d like flights further west to places like DEN and PHX, also LAS because they are often ‘safer’ cities to connect at if you’re going to LAX, SAN, SFO etc.

So I’m cautiously hopeful that these new gates lead to a return of flights to places around here not named ‘Boston.’


They used to do PVD-LAS a while back but discontinued it. I remember taking that flight on Christmas '09.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 948
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:54 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Interesting... and obviously this analysis is overly simplistic at best:

Looking at the continental US east to west WN has 3 principle strongholds:

1. BWI - East Coast nearly midway up the cost..
2. MDW - About 1/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated slightly biased to the north.
3. DEN - About 2/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated rather centrally north/south.

What would be considered the largest volume west coast airport? OAK?

I know in the south it would be Atlanta and DAL/HOU

How important is PHX to them?

LAS is interesting because they are key Origins and Destinations.

Quick list of primary bases for WN:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago–Midway
Dallas–Love
Denver
Houston–Hobby
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Oakland
Orlando
Phoenix–Sky Harbor

Interesting no bases in the NorthEast nor the PacificNorthWest.

Anyway,back on topic, I wouldn't have thought they would grow so much in Denver either...


BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.

PHX/LAS is interesting because there is quite a bit of overlap. PHX is building 8 new gates for WN so I expect some growth, but they haven’t done anything significant at LAS for a while and there is a lot of ULCC competition emerging, likely eating at WN’s bottom line there.

OAK is their biggest west coast station, but I can’t see it getting much bigger.
 
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FiscAutTecGarte
Posts: 154
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:16 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.


Interesting, didn't realize that about Nashville... It's not a crew base either. I guess BNA would fit my 1/3 East to West, but with a slight southern bias for it's placement. Is it used as a huge connector for WN like MDW and DEN?
learning never stops...

FischAutoTechGarten is the full handle and it reflects my interest. It's abbreviated to fit A.net short usernames.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:19 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Where are the F9 pilots on here??

Remember when you chose Republic over them and they ran you out of your own hub?

How did that work out for you a decade later?

Still the dumbest move in recent US aviation history

Congrats to WN at DEN


C'mon man, it's not necessary to attack F9 pilots in a WN thread.
Next flights:
AA1003 STL-ORD Airbus A319 November 25
AA3170 ORD-ASE Bombardier CRJ-700 November 25
AA3247 ASE-ORD Bombardier CRJ-700 November 29
AA1960 ORD-STL Airbus A319 November 29
 
AirFiero
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:21 pm

WN doesn’t time banks of flights or emphasize connections. What is the point of this huge build up at DEN? It can’t be O/D heavy, can it?
 
ScottB
Posts: 7117
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:22 pm

william wrote:
For the oldtimers here on Anet, could anyone imagine when Stapleton shut down that in 1995, that 25 years later United and "SWA" would be the largest carriers at DEN?


I don't think anyone just 15 years ago would have imagined that WN would be in the top two at DEN -- they only announced service to DEN late in 2005.

n7371f wrote:
How come you didn't mention that all F9 pilots would've had to interview for a potential job at WN? That their jobs were not guaranteed. And even those that might've been hired would've been placed at the far bottom of the seniority list. That WN had recently bought, shut down and furloughed the remainder of what was ATA. And WN had even prior history of doing the same albeit two decades earlier at Transtar?


Except that the Frontier pilots apparently were guaranteed to maintain pay even if they were bumped from CA to FO. Yeah, quality of schedule might have gone downhill for a few years but a 2nd year CA makes more at WN than a 12 year CA at F9. A 5th year FO at WN makes more than a 12 year FO at F9. The issue of job guarantees was more about the mechanics and FAs if memory serves -- WN would have needed pretty much all the pilots.

ATA had shut down over seven months before WN bought the assets. Muse/TranStar probably would have gone under in 1985 if Southwest hadn't bought them.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:24 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.


Interesting, didn't realize that about Nashville... It's not a crew base either. I guess BNA would fit my 1/3 East to West, but with a slight southern bias for it's placement. Is it used as a huge connector for WN like MDW and DEN?


There is a fair amount of connections, but not on the scale of BWI/MDW/DEN....... yet.

From what I’ve heard through the grapevine, I expect BNA to be significantly bigger for WN in the future, on par with BWI. It won’t happen overnight, but over the course of the next 5-10 years when BNA builds more gates.

But back to the topic at hand...... do we know how many turns DEN will do at their gates when these new ones come online?
 
AirFiero
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:27 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Interesting... and obviously this analysis is overly simplistic at best:

Looking at the continental US east to west WN has 3 principle strongholds:

1. BWI - East Coast nearly midway up the cost..
2. MDW - About 1/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated slightly biased to the north.
3. DEN - About 2/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated rather centrally north/south.

What would be considered the largest volume west coast airport? OAK?

I know in the south it would be Atlanta and DAL/HOU

How important is PHX to them?

LAS is interesting because they are key Origins and Destinations.

Quick list of primary bases for WN:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago–Midway
Dallas–Love
Denver
Houston–Hobby
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Oakland
Orlando
Phoenix–Sky Harbor

Interesting no bases in the NorthEast nor the PacificNorthWest.

Anyway,back on topic, I wouldn't have thought they would grow so much in Denver either...


BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.

PHX/LAS is interesting because there is quite a bit of overlap. PHX is building 8 new gates for WN so I expect some growth, but they haven’t done anything significant at LAS for a while and there is a lot of ULCC competition emerging, likely eating at WN’s bottom line there.

OAK is their biggest west coast station, but I can’t see it getting much bigger.


Does OAK have any unused capacity for WN? Do they have any expansion in the near future?

FYI, SJC just added 6 gates last year, all being used by WN.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:34 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.


Interesting, didn't realize that about Nashville... It's not a crew base either. I guess BNA would fit my 1/3 East to West, but with a slight southern bias for it's placement. Is it used as a huge connector for WN like MDW and DEN?


Based of the BTS site, just for context

Passenger (thousands) for Dec2019-Nov2020
MDW-18,594
DEN - 18,152
LAS - 16,954
BWI - 16,447
DAL - 15,054
PHX - 15,009
HOU - 12,373
MCO - 10,467
LAX - 9,483
SAN - 9,342
STL - 9,329
OAK - 9,329
BNA- 9,216
ATL- 8,999

I think that is all the bigger ones.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:56 pm

Jshank83 wrote:

Based of the BTS site, just for context

Passenger (thousands) for Dec2019-Nov2020
MDW-18,594
DEN - 18,152
LAS - 16,954
BWI - 16,447
DAL - 15,054
PHX - 15,009
HOU - 12,373
MCO - 10,467
LAX - 9,483
SAN - 9,342
STL - 9,329
OAK - 9,329
BNA- 9,216
ATL- 8,999

I think that is all the bigger ones.


The difference between DEN and MDW is interesting as they have 37 gates at MDW but move a similar amount of passengers as DEN with only 24 gates. It will be interesting to see how much WN really grows at DEN, the only number they have stated publicly is increasing the departures to 300 a day from the current 250.

The gate use requirements stated by the airport are somewhat comical, they said that Southwest would be required to have 4 departures per day per gate, at 40 gates that is only 160 flights a day. The airport did mention that the standards will be revised this year and hopefully they increase the minimums.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:10 pm

AirFiero wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Interesting... and obviously this analysis is overly simplistic at best:

Looking at the continental US east to west WN has 3 principle strongholds:

1. BWI - East Coast nearly midway up the cost..
2. MDW - About 1/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated slightly biased to the north.
3. DEN - About 2/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated rather centrally north/south.

What would be considered the largest volume west coast airport? OAK?

I know in the south it would be Atlanta and DAL/HOU

How important is PHX to them?

LAS is interesting because they are key Origins and Destinations.

Quick list of primary bases for WN:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago–Midway
Dallas–Love
Denver
Houston–Hobby
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Oakland
Orlando
Phoenix–Sky Harbor

Interesting no bases in the NorthEast nor the PacificNorthWest.

Anyway,back on topic, I wouldn't have thought they would grow so much in Denver either...


BNA is actually slightly bigger flight-wise than ATL. Itbwill be interesting to see what happens with ATL as WN continues to build up BNA.

PHX/LAS is interesting because there is quite a bit of overlap. PHX is building 8 new gates for WN so I expect some growth, but they haven’t done anything significant at LAS for a while and there is a lot of ULCC competition emerging, likely eating at WN’s bottom line there.

OAK is their biggest west coast station, but I can’t see it getting much bigger.


Does OAK have any unused capacity for WN? Do they have any expansion in the near future?

FYI, SJC just added 6 gates last year, all being used by WN.


I think they just shifted WN down and didn’t actually net gain 6 gates, can’t remember exactly how many of these “interim” gates they netted. I sort of remember reading that this was to allow all the airlines to have contiguous gates instead of having to work around each other from gate to gate. I think DL and AS gained a gate or 2.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1414
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:13 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
Interesting... and obviously this analysis is overly simplistic at best:

Looking at the continental US east to west WN has 3 principle strongholds:

1. BWI - East Coast nearly midway up the cost..
2. MDW - About 1/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated slightly biased to the north.
3. DEN - About 2/3 of the way across the country going east to west, seated rather centrally north/south.

What would be considered the largest volume west coast airport? OAK?

I know in the south it would be Atlanta and DAL/HOU

How important is PHX to them?

LAS is interesting because they are key Origins and Destinations.

Quick list of primary bases for WN:
Atlanta
Baltimore
Chicago–Midway
Dallas–Love
Denver
Houston–Hobby
Las Vegas
Los Angeles
Oakland
Orlando
Phoenix–Sky Harbor

Interesting no bases in the NorthEast nor the PacificNorthWest.

Anyway,back on topic, I wouldn't have thought they would grow so much in Denver either...


PHX is very important. They’re adding gates and doubling the size of their MX hangar
 
alasizon
Posts: 2629
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:19 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WN historical aircraft turn time gate usage has slowed down since the introduction of the 737-800NG/MAX8.
WN use to on average turn 12 planes per gate.
With the addition of the 800/MAX8 it is now down to 9 per gate. This is because it takes 20 minutes longer to turn a 800 vs 700.


That is an interesting statistic. From that I can assume:
9 x 175 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,520 passengers per gate day
12 x 143 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,746 passengers per gate day


The piece your analysis here doesn't take into account is the fact that not all flights are on 738s, there are still almost 2/3 of flights on 73Gs. 9 flights a day is also starting to become generous in some locations; some locations are barley pushing 8 now.

PacoMartin wrote:
As San Diego has been trying to replace Terminal 1 for over a decade, it seems logical that they would report gate utilization rates, but it seems like a useful metric. I wonder why more airports don't report it as part of their traffic reports.


I'm not sure how SAN gets their numbers but I highly doubt that most airports even have access to how many passengers are boarded per gate since they have no access to the airlines' reservations systems.

DEN1895 wrote:
The gate use requirements stated by the airport are somewhat comical, they said that Southwest would be required to have 4 departures per day per gate, at 40 gates that is only 160 flights a day. The airport did mention that the standards will be revised this year and hopefully they increase the minimums.

Those were similar to the standards they gave UA which is more in line with a legacy hub as opposed to WN's model. WN was also rumored to be hesitant about committing to all the gates at once so I suspect that the lower number was to give WN time to ramp up. Assuming the 250 per day now plus another 64 flights (4x16), that would put them at 314 which is about where they wanted to be anyhow.

AirFiero wrote:
WN doesn’t time banks of flights or emphasize connections. What is the point of this huge build up at DEN? It can’t be O/D heavy, can it?

Although they don't bank flights, there are still a very large number of connections (even if it is just on a thru-flight) and WN is certainly happy to sell you plenty of connections. The markets that depend on connections have a large number of flights that can feed them versus something that is O&D heavy (or Mega to Mega) doesn't need as many connection possibilities.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:22 pm

Contract to Rent the Gates? Really? Airlines should Own Gates at Denver and all other Cities.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
dc10lover
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:24 pm

Unless SouthWest can make it Work, I don't want to see them using Banks.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1548
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:30 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Unless SouthWest can make it Work, I don't want to see them using Banks.


Why not? Would it really kill WN to have a few banks of connections at a central location like DEN? They could connect most of not all of their US cities, plus some in Mexico, with only one stop.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3597
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:31 pm

AirFiero wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Unless SouthWest can make it Work, I don't want to see them using Banks.


Why not? Would it really kill WN to have a few banks of connections at a central location like DEN? They could connect most of not all of their US cities, plus some in Mexico, with only one stop.


They use banks at other airports. I don’t think it should be an issue to have them at DEN.
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 901
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:07 pm

All numbers are in thousands
Jshank83 wrote:
Based on the BTS site, just for context
DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019

MDW-18,594 Operating base
DEN - 18,152 Operating base
LAS - 16,954 Operating base
BWI - 16,447 Operating base
DAL - 15,054 Operating base
PHX - 15,009 Operating base
HOU - 12,373 Operating base

MCO - 10,467 Operating base
LAX - 9,483 Operating base
SAN - 9,342
STL - 9,329
OAK - 9,329 Operating base
BNA- 9,216
ATL- 8,999 - Operating base

I think that is all the bigger ones.


At present, WN does not consider SAN/STL/BNA to be operating bases. They are just busy airports.

But I think you are accurate by saying you have all the busy ones. The next group steps down in size by a significant amount.
SJC-7,545
SMF-6,711
AUS-5,664
MCI-5,543

In terms of number of domestic passengers, United's hub and spoke domestic operations are only slightly larger than Southwest's point to point operations
United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019
ORD-21,326
DEN-19,956
SFO-16,827
IAH-16,716
EWR-16,360
LAX-9,063
IAD-7,577

107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs
112,583 domestic passengers on Southwest on its 7 largest operating bases
 
ScottB
Posts: 7117
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:05 pm

alasizon wrote:
I'm not sure how SAN gets their numbers but I highly doubt that most airports even have access to how many passengers are boarded per gate since they have no access to the airlines' reservations systems.


They're not reporting counts for individual gates, but rather averages across different sections of the terminals. If the airlines are divided neatly across those terminal sections, it's fairly easy to get an average by summing the passenger counts for all airlines in a given part of a terminal and dividing by the number of gates.

BNAMealer wrote:
PHX and DEN both have significant new real estate coming online in the next few years. Combine that with the increasing ULCC competition and the close proximity of LAS/PHX/LAX, LAS is pretty redundant at this point. Connections are better flowed through DEN and PHX. I don’t see the need for their LAS base anymore.


They are huge at LAS and much of the ULCC competition is in markets WN does not serve. Why would WN walk away from one of its largest operations, in a fast-growing market to boot?
 
alasizon
Posts: 2629
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:33 pm

ScottB wrote:
alasizon wrote:
I'm not sure how SAN gets their numbers but I highly doubt that most airports even have access to how many passengers are boarded per gate since they have no access to the airlines' reservations systems.


They're not reporting counts for individual gates, but rather averages across different sections of the terminals. If the airlines are divided neatly across those terminal sections, it's fairly easy to get an average by summing the passenger counts for all airlines in a given part of a terminal and dividing by the number of gates.


The question more so is how they get the numbers; airlines don't provide pax figures by gate to airports; nor do they provide them by flight to the airport.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
ScottB
Posts: 7117
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:10 pm

alasizon wrote:
The question more so is how they get the numbers; airlines don't provide pax figures by gate to airports; nor do they provide them by flight to the airport.


Honestly, I think they're just going with the passenger numbers reported by individual carriers and breaking them up (somewhat inaccurately) by terminal area. The number for T1W is unusually low even though WN uses a couple of those gates; I suspect that almost all the WN passengers get counted as T1E and the T1W number is B6/G4/F9/NK/SY. T2E would be AS/AA while T2W would be AC/DL/UA. T2 int'l would then be HA and anything reported as having used the FIS (i.e. certain WN and AS arrivals and the overseas carriers).
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 901
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:10 am

alasizon wrote:
The piece your analysis here doesn't take into account is the fact that not all flights are on 738s, there are still almost 2/3 of flights on 73Gs. 9 flights a day is also starting to become generous in some locations; some locations are barley pushing 8 now.


I admit that my calculation was simplistic, but it bothers me a great deal that we are often making multi-billion dollar decisions based on similar analysis.

In 2004-2006 voters in San Diego county were asked to approve a process that might cost well over $10 billion for a new airport. The primary analysis was an attempt to show that the single runway would introduce constrained operations as early as 2018 which were going to have a $93 billion impact on the metro GDP over a period of time. San Diego County has $232 billion GDP (in 2017) so $93 billion is a lot of money and justifies the cost of the new airport.

Some analysts said that number was massively overinflated. That analysis that predicted the runway would be constrained was only allowing growth in passengers per takeoff to never get above 100 passengers. Part of the analysis was that Southwest would never change their business model and introduce jets with more than 143 seats. We all know that they would begin purchasing the larger jets just a few years later.

As it turns out the airlines simply upgauged to larger jets and the runway is probably good for another two decades.

The statement was next made that the gates and property size for SAN airport were woefully insufficient. No analysis was provided, but obviously there is some impact from the larger jets.

Terminal 1 is very crowded and there is very minimal facilities for dining. Terminal 1 East (11 gates) has 9,476,953 passengers in 2019 out of 25,216,947 for the whole airport. So that means 37.5% of the airport traffic is using 11 out of the 51 gates.

Behind security for 8 gates there are four places to eat
Bankers Hill Bar & Restaurant - Sit Down Dining
The Counter: Custom Built Burgers - Casual & Quick Service Dining
Ciao Gourmet Market - Casual & Quick Service Dining
Einstein Bros. Bagels

Behind security for 3 gates there are two places to eat
Craft Brews on 30th St.- Bar & Loung
Ciao Gourmet Market - Casual & Quick Service Dining

Critics point out that obviously billions of dollars must be spent to provide more gates and dining facilities. But SAN is an O&D airport for Southwest so most people just run in and out.

I have no real idea if that is unusually crowded compared to other airports around the country because there is almost no data about gate utilization rates.

I am sure that the 50 year old terminal needs to be replaced, and this expenditure is not a boondoggle. But in twenty years the idea of building a new airport will resurrect itself. I suspect the next time the replacement cost will be over $20 billion.

One needs to compare options like spending a few hundred million so that people from South County can easily walk across the pedestrian into the Tijuana Airport and fly back into the US. Today, they do that to fly to destinations in Mexico with the only flights to Mexico from San Diego airport going to the tourist resorts of Cabo San Lucas and Puerto Vallarta.

ScottB wrote:
Honestly, I think they're just going with the passenger numbers reported by individual carriers and breaking them up (somewhat inaccurately) by terminal area. The number for T1W is unusually low even though WN uses a couple of those gates; I suspect that almost all the WN passengers get counted as T1E and the T1W number is B6/G4/F9/NK/SY.


You may be correct. SAN airport authority reported the gates #1-#11 or T1East as 37.5% of the passengers for 2019, and they reported Southwest 37.8% of the airline market share.

T1West report as 5.966%

NK Spirit 2.5%
F9 Frontier 2.1%
B6 JetBlue 2.1%
SY Sun Country 0.4%
G4 Allegiant 0.2%

It's close.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:06 am

It does occur to me that United is the #1 carrier in 6 out of 7 of its hubs. The single exception, LAX is not particularly meaningful as LAX is the most egalitarian of the major airports in the US.

As United only leads Southwest by 3% in Denver, it is very possible that the newly expanded Southwest will overtake United as the #1 domestic carrier at the airport.

Is this going to be a big blow to United's stock price and prestige? Will United fight this by expanding as well? Or is it just another minor statistic?


United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov 2019 (ranked by % lead for #1)
LAX-9,063 #4 all four major airlines have ~ 15% to 20% of domestic traffic
DEN-19,956 #1 by ~3%
ORD-21,326 #1 by ~5%
SFO-16,827 #1 by ~18%
IAD-7,577 #1 by ~31%
IAH-16,716 #1 by ~38%
EWR-16,360 #1 by ~44%
107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs
 
evank516
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:30 pm

I wonder if ISP-DEN could be on the table for them at some point? With such a network of destinations and it being a growing tourist destination I would think it may do well despite having LGA as well and they will have better luck with it as opposed to the ISP-LAS flight they used to run.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:04 pm

ericm2031 wrote:

LAS seems vulnerable with so much ULCC competition there although a lot of it is very low frequency.


WN move over 17 m people through Vegas each year, i don't see Vegas being vulnerable at all. I could see WN moving some connections to DEN/PHX, but I don't see WN taking an axe to LAS in any meaningful way.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:27 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
It does occur to me that United is the #1 carrier in 6 out of 7 of its hubs. The single exception, LAX is not particularly meaningful as LAX is the most egalitarian of the major airports in the US.

As United only leads Southwest by 3% in Denver, it is very possible that the newly expanded Southwest will overtake United as the #1 domestic carrier at the airport.

Is this going to be a big blow to United's stock price and prestige? Will United fight this by expanding as well? Or is it just another minor statistic?


United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov 2019 (ranked by % lead for #1)
LAX-9,063 #4 all four major airlines have ~ 15% to 20% of domestic traffic
DEN-19,956 #1 by ~3%
ORD-21,326 #1 by ~5%
SFO-16,827 #1 by ~18%
IAD-7,577 #1 by ~31%
IAH-16,716 #1 by ~38%
EWR-16,360 #1 by ~44%
107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs


That UA 3% number doesn't include regionals though does it? Just mainline. At least that is what it seemed like when I saw it.
 
airfrnt
Topic Author
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:34 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
It does occur to me that United is the #1 carrier in 6 out of 7 of its hubs. The single exception, LAX is not particularly meaningful as LAX is the most egalitarian of the major airports in the US.

As United only leads Southwest by 3% in Denver, it is very possible that the newly expanded Southwest will overtake United as the #1 domestic carrier at the airport.

Is this going to be a big blow to United's stock price and prestige? Will United fight this by expanding as well? Or is it just another minor statistic?


United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov 2019 (ranked by % lead for #1)
LAX-9,063 #4 all four major airlines have ~ 15% to 20% of domestic traffic
DEN-19,956 #1 by ~3%
ORD-21,326 #1 by ~5%
SFO-16,827 #1 by ~18%
IAD-7,577 #1 by ~31%
IAH-16,716 #1 by ~38%
EWR-16,360 #1 by ~44%
107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs


On O&D, WN is larger then UA, but once you include connecting passengers, UA dwarfs WN at DEN. UA will have roughly 90 gates at DEN compared to WNs 40s. Even if UA runs at it's contractual minimum turns, and WN runs full out, UA would still have more aircraft and passengers. UA had a total of 2.6 million passengers in December, while WN had 1.6 million.

I think UA's "prestige" isn't threatened here.
 
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United787
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:30 pm

I think even when you combine market share with the other airports in the same market, UA is still #1:
ORD/MDW
SFO/OAK/SJC
IAD/DCA/BWI (not sure if UA is actually #1 combined)
IAH/HOU
EWR/JFK/LGA
*but you have to include regionals...

My point with bringing this up is that UA has learned to compete with WN in multiple markets for decades now and seems to have done just fine. Both UA and WN will have a lot of room to grow at DEN and so to answer PacoMartin's question, this will be just another minor statistic.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:56 pm

The BTS numbers are not strictly O&D, they do include connections from domestic flight to another domestic flight. They are counting boardings and deplaning. I don't think it counts people who are riding through the airport without changing equipment, but there are a lot fewer of those today.

While international connections are not extensive with United at Denver, there is three trans-ocean, three in Canada and five in Latin America
    Frankfurt, London–Heathrow, Tokyo–Narita
    Calgary,Toronto–Pearson, Vancouver
    Cancún, Puerto Vallarta, San José del Cabo, Seasonal: Cozumel, Liberia (CR)

Jshank83 wrote:
That UA 3% number doesn't include regionals though does it? Just mainline. At least that is what it seemed like when I saw it.

You are correct, the 3% does not include regionals, and there are a lot of United Express flights at DEN.

United787 wrote:
..so to answer PacoMartin's question, this will be just another minor statistic.

You may be correct, that UA prestige is not at stake.

The board of directors of Continental and UAL Corporation agreed on May 2, 2010, to combine operations. Southwest Airlines first announced the acquisition of AirTran Airways on September 27, 2010 . I am under the impression that most of Southwest growth in domestic market since 2011 has been at the expense of United.

DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov 2019 - not including regional airlines flying as United Express
112,583 domestic passengers on Southwest on its 7 largest operating bases
107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs

66,165 domestic passengers on Southwest on its next 7 largest airports
20,105 domestic passengers on United on its next 7 largest airports
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:43 pm

Very exciting that WN is willing to give HDN a try - from DEN. If this experiment goes well, I suspect destinations like ASE, BZN, DRO, EGE, GUC, JAC and/or MTJ could follow suit. HDN could set a very interesting precedent for WN and its DEN hub/focus city/whatever WN calls it...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:00 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Denver to Honolulu is 5,415 kilometers / 2,924 nautical miles.
MAX-8 has a still air range of 6,570 km / 3,550 nautical miles.
Does anyone think this route is a possibility?

maps4ltd wrote:
How are they going to manage all this growth with their current limited fleet?


I assume that the fleet will be growing by the end of the year, one way or another.


No because like you said it’s still air. You have to add ETOPS fuel plus alternate fuel. You will quickly run out of range.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:02 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Denver to Honolulu is 5,415 kilometers / 2,924 nautical miles.
MAX-8 has a still air range of 6,570 km / 3,550 nautical miles.
Does anyone think this route is a possibility?



I assume that the fleet will be growing by the end of the year, one way or another.

Not with 5,431ft elevation 35+ degrees' temperature (Celsius) during the summer.

Michael

Not doubting you. But that surprises me. A 16,000ft runway and that still isn’t enough


The length of the runway doesn’t mean a thing if the tire speeds and brake energy limit can’t support the weight in the heat. Even United’s 787s are weight restricted in the summer in July and August.
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:51 pm

United787 wrote:
I think even when you combine market share with the other airports in the same market, UA is still #1:
ORD/MDW
SFO/OAK/SJC
IAD/DCA/BWI (not sure if UA is actually #1 combined)
IAH/HOU
EWR/JFK/LGA


Nah, WN is largest in Washington/Baltimore by a pretty wide margin. They're larger in just BWI than UA (or any other carrier) is across all three airports. Amazingly, WN is second at DCA having only served the airport for seven-and-a-half years. UA is still biggest at the three PANYNJ airports but it was really close -- they edged out DL by 81,000 annual passengers out of just under 33 million for each. The gap was much larger in 2018 -- nearly 2 million -- so UA may not remain #1 in 2020 if that trend continues.
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:57 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
All numbers are in thousands
Jshank83 wrote:
Based on the BTS site, just for context
DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019

MDW-18,594 Operating base
DEN - 18,152 Operating base
LAS - 16,954 Operating base
BWI - 16,447 Operating base
DAL - 15,054 Operating base
PHX - 15,009 Operating base
HOU - 12,373 Operating base

MCO - 10,467 Operating base
LAX - 9,483 Operating base
SAN - 9,342
STL - 9,329
OAK - 9,329 Operating base
BNA- 9,216
ATL- 8,999 - Operating base

I think that is all the bigger ones.


At present, WN does not consider SAN/STL/BNA to be operating bases. They are just busy airports.

But I think you are accurate by saying you have all the busy ones. The next group steps down in size by a significant amount.
SJC-7,545
SMF-6,711
AUS-5,664
MCI-5,543

In terms of number of domestic passengers, United's hub and spoke domestic operations are only slightly larger than Southwest's point to point operations
United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019
ORD-21,326
DEN-19,956
SFO-16,827
IAH-16,716
EWR-16,360
LAX-9,063
IAD-7,577

107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs
112,583 domestic passengers on Southwest on its 7 largest operating bases


SJC and WN have always been a curious one for me. I feel like of course hindsight being 20/20 SJC would have been the better choice for WN’s Bay Area operations
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:19 pm

BTS publishes Top Domestic Markets* (December 2018 - November 2019) for each airline. But you have to use their groupings. For instance
Chicago, IL = O'Hare and Midway
Houston, TX = IAH + HOU
Dallas, TX = DAL, but not DFW
New York, NY = LGA + JFK but not Newark
Washington, DC = IAD + DCA but not BWI

Using BTS carrier snapshots,
United only has barely over 50% in only one market, Newark.
Delta has 4 out of 5 top markets over 49%
American has 3 out of 5 top markets over 59%
Southwest shares their top 3 markets with other airlines. BWI and DAL are over 50% only because BTS considers them stand alone markets.

United Markets Served - 150
Chicago, IL 10.64m 24.44%
Denver, CO 10.00m 31.47%
San Francisco, CA 8.41m 41.34%
Houston, TX 8.35m 36.41%
Newark, NJ 8.17m 51.22%
Other 41.59m 6.20%

Southwest Markets Served - 92
Chicago, IL 9.27m 21.29%
Denver, CO 9.08m 28.58%
Las Vegas, NV 8.47m 37.67%
Baltimore, MD 8.23m 65.41%
Dallas, TX 7.52m 94.10%
Other 115.32m 16.78%

Delta Markets Served - 160
Atlanta, GA 34.23m 72.78%
Minneapolis, MN 9.30m 53.50%
New York, NY 8.10m 28.66%
Detroit, MI 7.92m 49.22%
Salt Lake City, UT 6.45m 52.85%
Other 68.91m 10.07%

American Markets Served - 120
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX 21.02m 68.27%
Charlotte, NC 13.15m 59.48%
Chicago, IL 8.97m 20.60%
Phoenix, AZ 7.89m 35.83%
Miami, FL 7.39m 69.08%
Other 66.41m 9.82%
 
AirFiero
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:01 am

UWPAviation wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
All numbers are in thousands
Jshank83 wrote:
Based on the BTS site, just for context
DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019

MDW-18,594 Operating base
DEN - 18,152 Operating base
LAS - 16,954 Operating base
BWI - 16,447 Operating base
DAL - 15,054 Operating base
PHX - 15,009 Operating base
HOU - 12,373 Operating base

MCO - 10,467 Operating base
LAX - 9,483 Operating base
SAN - 9,342
STL - 9,329
OAK - 9,329 Operating base
BNA- 9,216
ATL- 8,999 - Operating base

I think that is all the bigger ones.


At present, WN does not consider SAN/STL/BNA to be operating bases. They are just busy airports.

But I think you are accurate by saying you have all the busy ones. The next group steps down in size by a significant amount.
SJC-7,545
SMF-6,711
AUS-5,664
MCI-5,543

In terms of number of domestic passengers, United's hub and spoke domestic operations are only slightly larger than Southwest's point to point operations
United DOMESTIC Passenger (thousands) for Dec2018-Nov2019
ORD-21,326
DEN-19,956
SFO-16,827
IAH-16,716
EWR-16,360
LAX-9,063
IAD-7,577

107,825 domestic passengers on United on its 7 hubs
112,583 domestic passengers on Southwest on its 7 largest operating bases


SJC and WN have always been a curious one for me. I feel like of course hindsight being 20/20 SJC would have been the better choice for WN’s Bay Area operations


OAK has long been an “alternative” to SFO. AirCal had a big operation at SJC, then Reno Air and AA got big, and there were mergers and the AA hub around the time WN was expanding in California. Oakland was more open. Today, SJC is approaching OAK levels of WN service. Personally, I’m surprised WN is growing so much at a SJC.
 
ATCJesus
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:39 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Very exciting that WN is willing to give HDN a try - from DEN. If this experiment goes well, I suspect destinations like ASE, BZN, DRO, EGE, GUC, JAC and/or MTJ could follow suit. HDN could set a very interesting precedent for WN and its DEN hub/focus city/whatever WN calls it...



No 737 into Aspen.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:45 am

I don't know how many airports Southwest ranks #1 in domestic passengers, but there are at least 4 in CA.


San Jose
Southwest 7,545 52.66%
Alaska 1,777 12.40%
Delta 1,044 7.28%
American 941 6.57%
SkyWest 835 5.83%
Other 2,186 15.26%

Sacramento
Southwest 6,711 53.94%
American 1,152 9.26%
United 953 7.66%
Delta 821 6.60%
SkyWest 628 5.04%
Other 2,176 17.49%

Oakland
Southwest 9,329 75.78%
Spirit 717 5.83%
Alaska 613 4.98%
Hawaiian 365 2.97%
JetBlue 262 2.12%
Other 1,024 8.32%

San Diego
Southwest 9,342 38.86%
United 2,827 11.76%
Delta 2,825 11.75%
American 2,708 11.26%
Alaska 2,526 10.51%
Other 3,813 15.86%

Others must include HOU, DAL, MDW, MCI, PVD, BWI, BNA, PWM, and LAS. So that is 13. I don't know the complete list, but I assume there are a lot more.
 
Bradin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:58 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Denver to Honolulu is 5,415 kilometers / 2,924 nautical miles.
MAX-8 has a still air range of 6,570 km / 3,550 nautical miles.
Does anyone think this route is a possibility?



I assume that the fleet will be growing by the end of the year, one way or another.

Not with 5,431ft elevation 35+ degrees' temperature (Celsius) during the summer.

Michael

Not doubting you. But that surprises me. A 16,000ft runway and that still isn’t enough


This past summer, it was 45C/113F.
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:10 am

PacoMartin wrote:
I don't know how many airports Southwest ranks #1 in domestic passengers, but there are at least 4 in CA.

...

Others must include HOU, DAL, MDW, MCI, PVD, BWI, BNA, PWM, and LAS. So that is 13. I don't know the complete list, but I assume there are a lot more.


They're the market leader in every California airport they serve save SFO, LAX, and LGB. They're the largest in all ten airports they serve in Texas. There's ABQ, OKC, TUL, MSY, OMA, MCO, TPA, RNO, MKE, MHT, ALB, BUF, CMH, IND, STL, probably SDF & PIT (depends on how the regional numbers are divided among the legacies). I don't think they're the market leader at PWM. The total is probably around 40.

Delta tends to be the largest in a bunch of small & medium markets in the Southeast and Midwest (apart from large WN stations or hubs for other carriers) thanks to the power of the hubs at ATL/DTW/MSP.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:16 am

ScottB wrote:
I don't think they're the market leader at PWM. The total is probably around 40.


They are the leader at PWM, but not by a very large percentage.
Southwest 306 14.14%
Republic Airline 261 12.04%
American 254 11.74%
Endeavor 239 11.02%
Delta 237 10.96%
Other 868 40.10%

I can look up every single airport they serve one by one, but that would take hours. Plus there is no data on regionals as to which mainline airline they are flying for. there must be some way to extract the answer from the database, but I can't figure it out.

Your guess is roughly half the markets they fly to they are #1.
Birmingham AL
Little Rock AR
Fayetteville AR
Phoenix AZ
Tucson AZ
Oakland CA
San Diego CA
Los Angeles CA
San Jose CA
Sacramento CA
Burbank CA
San Francisco CA
Santa Ana CA
Ontario CA
Long Beach CA
Denver CO
Hartford CT
Washington DC
Orlando FL
Tampa FL
Fort Lauderdale FL
Fort Myers FL
Jacksonville FL
West Palm Beach/Palm Beach FL
Panama City FL
Pensacola FL
Atlanta GA
Honolulu HI
Kahului HI
Kona HI
Lihue HI
Des Moines IA
Boise ID
Chicago IL
Indianapolis IN
South Bend IN
Wichita KS
Louisville KY
New Orleans LA
Boston MA
Baltimore MD
Portland ME
Detroit MI
Grand Rapids MI
Minneapolis MN
St. Louis MO
Kansas City MO
Columbus MS
Raleigh/Durham NC
Charlotte NC
Omaha NE
Manchester NH
Newark NJ
Albuquerque NM
Las Vegas NV
Reno NV
New York NY
Buffalo NY
Islip NY
Albany NY
Rochester NY
Columbus OH
Cleveland OH
Cincinnati OH
Oklahoma City OK
Tulsa OK
Portland OR
Pittsburgh PA
Philadelphia PA
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre PA
Reading PA
Harrisburg PA
San Juan PR
Providence RI
Charleston SC
Greer SC
Nashville TN
Memphis TN
Smyrna TN
Dallas TX
Houston TX
Austin TX
San Antonio TX
El Paso TX
Midland/Odessa TX
Lubbock TX
Harlingen/San Benito TX
Amarillo TX
Corpus Christi TX
Dallas/Fort Worth TX
Salt Lake City UT
Norfolk VA
Richmond VA
Seattle WA
Spokane WA
Milwaukee WI
 
alasizon
Posts: 2629
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:00 am

PacoMartin wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I don't think they're the market leader at PWM. The total is probably around 40.


They are the leader at PWM, but not by a very large percentage.
Southwest 306 14.14%
Republic Airline 261 12.04%
American 254 11.74%
Endeavor 239 11.02%
Delta 237 10.96%
Other 868 40.10%


They clearly are not #1 in PWM. DL + 9E easily surpasses them and 9E only flies for DL so there is no hard math required there. Plus if you assume that AA + 30% of YX represents the minimum AA operation, they also pass WN.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:06 am

ATCJesus wrote:
No 737 into Aspen.


A privately operated 735 just barely made it in and out of ASE, though larger/more modern variants would not be allowed under current airfield restrictions.

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/whale-7 ... continues/

However, assuming ASE does get upgraded from its current "nonstandard" configuration in the next few years, the airport may be forced to accommodate the 737. The issue for ASE, of course, is that the CRJ-700s currently serving the airport are getting long in the tooth, and any replacements will likely be even larger and heavier...

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/aspen-a ... they-come/
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:12 am

alasizon wrote:
They clearly are not #1 in PWM. DL + 9E easily surpasses them and 9E only flies for DL so there is no hard math required there. Plus if you assume that AA + 30% of YX represents the minimum AA operation, they also pass WN.


You are correct. It would be nice if the BTS does tell you who the regionals are flying for, but in some cases the flight is a code share with more than one mainstream airline.
 
kwp302
Posts: 131
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:48 am

ScottB wrote:
I don't know how many airports Southwest ranks #1 in domestic passengers...

...probably SDF

AA (27.15%) has the largest market share at SDF, followed by DL (26.48%) and then WN (25.90%)
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 155
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Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:20 am

PacoMartin wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I don't think they're the market leader at PWM. The total is probably around 40.


They are the leader at PWM, but not by a very large percentage.
Southwest 306 14.14%
Republic Airline 261 12.04%
American 254 11.74%
Endeavor 239 11.02%
Delta 237 10.96%
Other 868 40.10%

I can look up every single airport they serve one by one, but that would take hours. Plus there is no data on regionals as to which mainline airline they are flying for. there must be some way to extract the answer from the database, but I can't figure it out.

Your guess is roughly half the markets they fly to they are #1.
Birmingham AL
Little Rock AR
Fayetteville AR
Phoenix AZ
Tucson AZ
Oakland CA
San Diego CA
Los Angeles CA
San Jose CA
Sacramento CA
Burbank CA
San Francisco CA
Santa Ana CA
Ontario CA
Long Beach CA
Denver CO
Hartford CT
Washington DC
Orlando FL
Tampa FL
Fort Lauderdale FL
Fort Myers FL
Jacksonville FL
West Palm Beach/Palm Beach FL
Panama City FL
Pensacola FL
Atlanta GA
Honolulu HI
Kahului HI
Kona HI
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DL is the largest carrier at BHM and AA is making a strong push to unseat WN as the #2 carrier.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:35 am

kwp302 wrote:
AA (27.15%) has the largest market share at SDF, followed by DL (26.48%) and then WN (25.90%)



It's virtually impossible to know this fact from BTS data, because up to six airlines are flying for AA, and some, like Republic are flying for all three airlines.

Carrier Shares for December 2018 - November 2019
26.48% Southwest
16.93% Delta
15.14% Republic Airline
6.46% SkyWest
6.29% PSA
28.70% Other

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