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barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:11 pm

WN732 wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WN historical aircraft turn time gate usage has slowed down since the introduction of the 737-800NG/MAX8.
WN use to on average turn 12 planes per gate.
With the addition of the 800/MAX8 it is now down to 9 per gate. This is because it takes 20 minutes longer to turn a 800 vs 700.


That is an interesting statistic. From that I can assume:
9 x 175 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,520 passengers per gate day
12 x 143 x 2 x 80% load factor = 2,746 passengers per gate day

SAN Diego airport is one of the few that reports Gate Utilization rates
Gates
11 Terminal 1 East (Southwest gates)
8 Terminal 1 West
13 Terminal 2 East
15 Terminal 2 West
4 Terminal 2 International
51 Total

Gate Utilization Rate (passengers daily) for 2019
2,360 Terminal 1 East
515 Terminal 1 West
1,326 Terminal 2 East
1,385 Terminal 2 West
245 Terminal 2 International
1,355 Net Gate Utilization

Actual data is a little lower than your estimate, but SAN airport is takeoff limited at night, so that could explain the difference.

As San Diego has been trying to replace Terminal 1 for over a decade, it seems logical that they would report gate utilization rates, but it seems like a useful metric. I wonder why more airports don't report it as part of their traffic reports.


Amazing that the circle of death runs almost double the passengers than any of the other gate areas.


Please, please.........we prefer "Thunderdome". :D
Southeast Of Disorder
 
barney captain
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:26 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
Denver to Honolulu is 5,415 kilometers / 2,924 nautical miles.
MAX-8 has a still air range of 6,570 km / 3,550 nautical miles.
Does anyone think this route is a possibility?

maps4ltd wrote:
How are they going to manage all this growth with their current limited fleet?


I assume that the fleet will be growing by the end of the year, one way or another.


No because like you said it’s still air. You have to add ETOPS fuel plus alternate fuel. You will quickly run out of range.


IIRC, the range stated is "80% average winds" or something along those lines, as opposed to still air. Regardless, the MAX7 has a 'range' of 3850nm, making it a likely player for DEN to Hawaii.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:52 pm

barney captain wrote:
IIRC, the range stated is "80% average winds" or something along those lines, as opposed to still air. Regardless, the MAX7 has a 'range' of 3850nm, making it a likely player for DEN to Hawaii.


Maybe WN will surprise us and invest in a small fleet of A321XLR strictly to fly to Hawaii from their busy airports.
HNL (statute miles)
2762 LAS
2917 PHX
3364 DEN
3795 DAL
3910 HOU
4129 STL
4252 MDW
4350 BNA
4855 BWI

I know that most people are betting that if WN deviates from its B737 only policy it will be towards the A220-300, but they could take another twist.
 
kwp302
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:18 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
kwp302 wrote:
AA (27.15%) has the largest market share at SDF, followed by DL (26.48%) and then WN (25.90%)



It's virtually impossible to know this fact from BTS data, because up to six airlines are flying for AA, and some, like Republic are flying for all three airlines.

Carrier Shares for December 2018 - November 2019
26.48% Southwest
16.93% Delta
15.14% Republic Airline
6.46% SkyWest
6.29% PSA
28.70% Other


It's from SDF's report. If you want to break it down by regionals then sure, WN is the largest. But going by "logos on the planes", AA and DL are ahead of WN.

https://www.flylouisville.com/wp-conten ... 019-12.pdf
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:27 am

BNAMealer wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
LAS seems vulnerable with so much ULCC competition there although a lot of it is very low frequency.


With LAX now a base, the growth at DEN and PHX so close, I wonder if WN will consider dismantling their LAS base eventually? It is very redundant and those resources would be better invested in PHX/DEN/LAX IMO.


I would think that LAS is more of an O&D market as opposed to a connecting flights market because, well, it's Vegas.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:45 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
I would think that LAS is more of an O&D market as opposed to a connecting flights market because, well, it's Vegas.


Of course, but we don't know what the percentages are for Southwest airlines alone, which is the relevant statistic in this case.

But for all airlines
%O&D
86.5% LAS
80.5% LAX
67.0% PHX
64.1% DEN

95.5% TPA
94.9% AUS
93.9% MCO
93.6% SAN
93.2% BOS
91.3% LGA
...
51.2% IAH
45.9% DFW
38.2% ATL

CLT probably has lower O&D than ATL, but it wasn't on the chart I was using
https://orlandoairports.net/site/upload ... anking.pdf
 
airguardtn
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 8:47 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:03 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I don't think they're the market leader at PWM. The total is probably around 40.


They are the leader at PWM, but not by a very large percentage.
Southwest 306 14.14%
Republic Airline 261 12.04%
American 254 11.74%
Endeavor 239 11.02%
Delta 237 10.96%
Other 868 40.10%

I can look up every single airport they serve one by one, but that would take hours. Plus there is no data on regionals as to which mainline airline they are flying for. there must be some way to extract the answer from the database, but I can't figure it out.

Your guess is roughly half the markets they fly to they are #1.
Birmingham AL
Little Rock AR
Fayetteville AR
Phoenix AZ
Tucson AZ
Oakland CA
San Diego CA
Los Angeles CA
San Jose CA
Sacramento CA
Burbank CA
San Francisco CA
Santa Ana CA
Ontario CA
Long Beach CA
Denver CO
Hartford CT
Washington DC
Orlando FL
Tampa FL
Fort Lauderdale FL
Fort Myers FL
Jacksonville FL
West Palm Beach/Palm Beach FL
Panama City FL
Pensacola FL
Atlanta GA
Honolulu HI
Kahului HI
Kona HI
Lihue HI
Des Moines IA
Boise ID
Chicago IL
Indianapolis IN
South Bend IN
Wichita KS
Louisville KY
New Orleans LA
Boston MA
Baltimore MD
Portland ME
Detroit MI
Grand Rapids MI
Minneapolis MN
St. Louis MO
Kansas City MO
Columbus MS
Raleigh/Durham NC
Charlotte NC
Omaha NE
Manchester NH
Newark NJ
Albuquerque NM
Las Vegas NV
Reno NV
New York NY
Buffalo NY
Islip NY
Albany NY
Rochester NY
Columbus OH
Cleveland OH
Cincinnati OH
Oklahoma City OK
Tulsa OK
Portland OR
Pittsburgh PA
Philadelphia PA
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre PA
Reading PA
Harrisburg PA
San Juan PR
Providence RI
Charleston SC
Greer SC
Nashville TN
Memphis TN
Smyrna TN
Dallas TX
Houston TX
Austin TX
San Antonio TX
El Paso TX
Midland/Odessa TX
Lubbock TX
Harlingen/San Benito TX
Amarillo TX
Corpus Christi TX
Dallas/Fort Worth TX
Salt Lake City UT
Norfolk VA
Richmond VA
Seattle WA
Spokane WA
Milwaukee WI



Not sure how Smyrna Tennessee made the list. The town is not too far from Nashville. The folks there probably wished they had scheduled service of any type.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:50 am

This is primarily a move to keep Spirit and Frontier from establishing greater footholds in Denver with the industry speculation that NK and F9 will eventually merge and be an immense competitor to WN, which can no longer come close to matching their costs. By keeping gates from the Spirit and Frontier, Southwest can somewhat squat on more space. The merger between the two airlines is coming, it's just a matter of time, and it'll be a helluva issue for Southwest which is no longer a low-fare airline. Strategically, brilliant to try and keep hometown F9 and up and comer NK from growing in DEN knowing what's coming in the next 5-10 years.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:50 am

This is primarily a move to keep Spirit and Frontier from establishing greater footholds in Denver with the industry speculation that NK and F9 will eventually merge and be an immense competitor to WN, which can no longer come close to matching their costs. By keeping gates from the Spirit and Frontier, Southwest can somewhat squat on more space. The merger between the two airlines is coming, it's just a matter of time, and it'll be a helluva issue for Southwest which is no longer a low-fare airline. Strategically, brilliant to try and keep hometown F9 and up and comer NK from growing in DEN knowing what's coming in the next 5-10 years.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:52 pm

n7371f wrote:
This is primarily a move to keep Spirit and Frontier from establishing greater footholds in Denver with the industry speculation that NK and F9 will eventually merge and be an immense competitor to WN, which can no longer come close to matching their costs. By keeping gates from the Spirit and Frontier, Southwest can somewhat squat on more space. The merger between the two airlines is coming, it's just a matter of time, and it'll be a helluva issue for Southwest which is no longer a low-fare airline. Strategically, brilliant to try and keep hometown F9 and up and comer NK from growing in DEN knowing what's coming in the next 5-10 years.

WN doesn’t squat on gates AT ALL. If anything, the gates will have a higher daily utilization than UA with their 90 eventual gates. As for NK/F9, I don’t think WN is overly concerned. While that would be a formidable competitor, WN is in extremely good financial shape and has a very loyal customer following especially in Denver.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
bhill
Posts: 1835
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:17 pm

How firm do you think the COS addition will be? There is ALOT of Military folks that would love a cheaper fare than UA..
Carpe Pices
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3225
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:41 pm

bhill wrote:
How firm do you think the COS addition will be? There is ALOT of Military folks that would love a cheaper fare than UA..


and you can find that cheaper fare on WN? I typically find WN a lot higher than UA.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6993
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest adding 16 new gates in Denver, will be WN's largest city

Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:00 pm

n7371f wrote:
This is primarily a move to keep Spirit and Frontier from establishing greater footholds in Denver with the industry speculation that NK and F9 will eventually merge and be an immense competitor to WN, which can no longer come close to matching their costs. By keeping gates from the Spirit and Frontier, Southwest can somewhat squat on more space.


I'm not sure I see the point, given that there's still plenty of room for DEN to be expanded if airlines want to commit to additional gates. If a combined NK/F9 wants 40 gates, DIA can build them 40 gates.

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