airlineguy1234
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Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:13 am

I’ve always noticed when looking at the departure board on FR24, that at most airports, even non American hub airports, the first departure of the day is an American flight.

For Example (all on Friday, Feb 28, 2020)

LARGE AIRPORTS
ATL 507am departure to CLT
The first DL departure isn’t till 550am and there’s only one other departure in between, Frontier.

On Saturday, the 29th the difference is even more staggering. The first AA departure is at 512am to CLT and the first DL departure isn’t for over another hour to SLC at 630.

DEN 500am to DFW
Only after their 509am departure to CLT is the first non AA departure, WN to AUS at 515AM.

IAH 500am to DFW
First UA departure isn’t till 530am to DEN.

LAX 500am to MIA
First WN departure is at 515am to MSY, B6 530am to JFK, UA 537am to DEN, DL 559am to SLC.

LAS 500am to DFW
MCO 500am departure to CLT

MEDIUM/SMALL
RDU 515am to CLT
CHS 505am departure for CLT
BGR 512am departure for PHL
BDL 517am departure to DCA
TLH 500am to MIA
XNA 500am to DFW
Only after their 537am departure to ORD, is the first non AA departure, DL to MSP at 600am.
MCI 504am to CLT
Only after their 524am departure to MIA, is the first non AA departure, WN to PHX at 535am.
STL 507am to CLT





Why is this the case? I’m curious if anyone here knows the answer.
 
rph99
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:45 am

I’ve always noticed and wondered this myself.
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:45 am

A lot of it has to do with the bank times at the hubs. American may be first at many airports, but all airlines have early morning departures to hubs from spokes on aircraft that RON.
 
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fraspotter
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:46 am

airlineguy1234 wrote:
DEN 500am to DFW Only after their 509am departure to CLT is the first non AA departure, WN to AUS at 515AM.


Is that really true though? I mean If you're basing it off of a day starting/ending at midnight then F9 558 departs at 1206AM just past midnight. Not only that but between 12:06AM and 1:16AM a total of 8 flights are scheduled to depart. 6 are F9 and 2 are AA.
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JohanTally
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:56 am

That's how airlines with banked hubs typically function the first departures come from outstations and arrive within 30-45 minutes of each other during normal ops and then they depart in the same manner. AA has 9 banks of departures at CLT 7-8a 9-10a 11-12p 1245-1330 1415-1515 1600-1645 1745-1830 1945-2030 2200-2300 and almost all departures are scheduled in those windows. A fair amount of the flights that depart at the end of the night are the first aircraft that arrive the following morning.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:07 am

fraspotter wrote:
airlineguy1234 wrote:
DEN 500am to DFW Only after their 509am departure to CLT is the first non AA departure, WN to AUS at 515AM.


Is that really true though? I mean If you're basing it off of a day starting/ending at midnight then F9 558 departs at 1206AM just past midnight. Not only that but between 12:06AM and 1:16AM a total of 8 flights are scheduled to depart. 6 are F9 and 2 are AA.


Most people would consider 5AM the morning and 1AM the night. I think it's clear that's what the poster means.
 
FSDan
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:13 am

I've noticed this about AA in particular as well... I suppose they're just trying to squeeze a little extra revenue out of their fleet. As long as people are willing to wake up for these horrendously early flights, they'll keep doing it (provided they don't have to discount them too much).

As bad as these 5-6 AM flights are, I'm always astounded at some of the timings of AV's flights to SAL (some between 3 and 5 am), as well as B6's Puerto Rico -> mainland redeyes that basically leave right in the middle of the night.
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seat1a
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:32 am

And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:36 am

seat1a wrote:
And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!

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ua900
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:39 am

FSDan wrote:
I've noticed this about AA in particular as well... I suppose they're just trying to squeeze a little extra revenue out of their fleet. As long as people are willing to wake up for these horrendously early flights, they'll keep doing it (provided they don't have to discount them too much).

As bad as these 5-6 AM flights are, I'm always astounded at some of the timings of AV's flights to SAL (some between 3 and 5 am), as well as B6's Puerto Rico -> mainland redeyes that basically leave right in the middle of the night.


I assume you mean something like AV 521 / 529 / 63 / 567, those are timed to give you the best connectivity at SAL and/or the ability to spend a whole day outside of the airport and then connect onwards in the evening. Having taken 521 / 529 in the past, I recall beverage only service (albeit aged Flor de Cana with Coke) but still friendly, most everyone was dozing off at the gate and me having fun at the AC lounge in LAX until about an hour before boarding started.

Most folks fell right asleep again before takeoff, practically as soon as they took their seats. The upside was landing at SAL in the morning, good opportunity for breakfast at the Avianca Sala VIP and Hertz at SAL had just opened as well. The whole nighttime transfer there reminded me a bit of the night trains in Europe, takes some getting used to, but there's a distinct benefit if you're the type of person who can sleep on a plane (in a barcalounger) since you won't waste half a day just getting to SAL.

For SJU / BQN night time departures on B6, UA, NK, etc, I think that a lot of night time flights aim to get to their connecting airport (FLL, EWR, IAH) around 6-7am, in time for connections (and breakfast). Leaving out of BQN on UA to EWR at 2am was alright too, it's a super sleepy but friendly small airport with a bowling alley across being the main attraction (unless you prefer to watch the FexEx ramp activity), beats the closed (at night anyway) Avianca lounge at SJU and the 2-3 duty free shops there.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:52 am

seat1a wrote:
And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!

Southwest only operates on 0s and 5s.
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32andBelow
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:18 am

seat1a wrote:
And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!

They schedule the arrival time at the hub and then apply seasonal block times based on historical flight times.
 
avek00
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:53 am

Business travelers. They love the first and last flights of the day to maximize productivity.
Live life to the fullest.
 
KD5MDK
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:22 am

I feel like love is really overstating it. Allows a trip to be one day or whatever instead adding overnights is more like it.
 
flyboy7974
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:35 am

Easy answer, for every example you’ve listed, look at the routing: an outstation to our hub. AA pushes very early their first departures from their outstations to feed their first banks in the hubs. Most comparisons you’ve listed are comparing AA with the competing hub carrier whose hubs flights await the inbound connecting passengers, thus leaving later.
 
airlineguy1234
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:28 am

flyboy7974 wrote:
Easy answer, for every example you’ve listed, look at the routing: an outstation to our hub. AA pushes very early their first departures from their outstations to feed their first banks in the hubs. Most comparisons you’ve listed are comparing AA with the competing hub carrier whose hubs flights await the inbound connecting passengers, thus leaving later.


I also listed examples of non hub airports too. But here, let’s take AA stations.

DFW
First 2 departures are AA at 5am to MIA and CLT, then AA at 517am to ORD. AA doesn’t operate flights that’s not to another hub until 630AM, CRP.

CLT
First departure is AA at 530am to LGA. First outstation AA flight is 610am to EWR.

DCA
First departure is AA at 519am to CLT. First outstation AA flight is at 639am to PVD.

PHL
First departure is AA at 500am to DFW. First outstation AA departure is at 600am to MCO.

ORD
First two flights are AA at 500am and 515am to DFW and MIA repetitively. AA has a gap between 6am and 630am with no departures until their LGA and DSM, the first outstation flight of the day, both depart.

PHX
This one is interesting. AA does not have the first flight, nowhere close. First flight is UA at 524am to IAH, then WN at 525am to OAK, then WN at 550am to ATL, then AA to CLT at 600am. AA’s first flight to an outstation isn’t till 646am to SAN.

I wonder if any industry insiders can analyze this more.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:42 am

OTOH it seems like United always have the first westbound departure from Europe back to the United States, especially their 757 flights when they had lots of them, departure times out of Berlin, Bristol etc always seemed to be around 0900 with a midday arrival into Newark. Not just narrow bodies though, I took a 747 out of Heathrow to Chicago at 0750, they have a similar departure to Dulles (07-something).

Very good for aircraft utilisation, if the aircraft is back in the States by midday (or even earlier) it can do another long sector in the day. For instance I took a TXL EWR flight that landed at 1200, connected to SFO an hour and a half later, operated by the same bird. So it operates a red eye to Germany, a daylight back, and by 1600 PST it’s on the deck in San Francisco, then probably on to Hawaii and a red eye back to California. That’s a good use of the asset. Early bird catches the worm!
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MIflyer12
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:37 am

cedarjet wrote:
Very good for aircraft utilisation...


It is, but that's not an area where AA is a leader, despite its early start to the day.

Not speaking to your TATL examples but instead the Small Narrowbodies category of the MIT Airline Data Project (150 seats or less), data for 2018, block hours per aircraft:

NK, 12.02
B6, 11.26
WN, 10.57
UA, 9.42
DL, 8.94
AA, 8.89

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html
 
Vctony
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:48 am

airlineguy1234 wrote:
flyboy7974 wrote:
Easy answer, for every example you’ve listed, look at the routing: an outstation to our hub. AA pushes very early their first departures from their outstations to feed their first banks in the hubs. Most comparisons you’ve listed are comparing AA with the competing hub carrier whose hubs flights await the inbound connecting passengers, thus leaving later.


I also listed examples of non hub airports too. But here, let’s take AA stations.

DFW
First 2 departures are AA at 5am to MIA and CLT, then AA at 517am to ORD. AA doesn’t operate flights that’s not to another hub until 630AM, CRP.

CLT
First departure is AA at 530am to LGA. First outstation AA flight is 610am to EWR.

DCA
First departure is AA at 519am to CLT. First outstation AA flight is at 639am to PVD.

PHL
First departure is AA at 500am to DFW. First outstation AA departure is at 600am to MCO.

ORD
First two flights are AA at 500am and 515am to DFW and MIA repetitively. AA has a gap between 6am and 630am with no departures until their LGA and DSM, the first outstation flight of the day, both depart.

PHX
This one is interesting. AA does not have the first flight, nowhere close. First flight is UA at 524am to IAH, then WN at 525am to OAK, then WN at 550am to ATL, then AA to CLT at 600am. AA’s first flight to an outstation isn’t till 646am to SAN.

I wonder if any industry insiders can analyze this more.


If you are looking at banks PHX is even later. The first major bank of departures is 8:20 am (to destinations on the west coast) and 9:40 am (to destinations phx of PHX). During DST these banks get moved to 7:20 am and 8:40 am but are still relatively late.
 
stlgph
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:33 pm

As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.
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Kno
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:37 pm

Never gave it much thought and assumed all airlines did this - in BOS all the major airlines have 5am departures.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:55 pm

BTW PHX will have a 5AM departure to CLT coming up with the time change. I'm on it. LAA had few flight domestic flights that went out between 5AM-6AM. The only one I can remember was JFK/MIA that would go out at 5:30AM or 5:45AM (I was on it many times). The 5AM departures came with the combined airline and presumably with banked hubs. Interestingly other than a 5:30AM flight to DFW I don't think MIA has any 5AM-6AM departures.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:39 pm

stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.


This was my recollection too although I don’t have any evidence to support. I remember USAir in Boston having some (heinously IMO) early departures.
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FRNT787
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Very good for aircraft utilisation...


It is, but that's not an area where AA is a leader, despite its early start to the day.

Not speaking to your TATL examples but instead the Small Narrowbodies category of the MIT Airline Data Project (150 seats or less), data for 2018, block hours per aircraft:

NK, 12.02
B6, 11.26
WN, 10.57
UA, 9.42
DL, 8.94
AA, 8.89

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html


One thing to consider for AA on this. The 150 seat cut off you mentioned for the data removes a bunch of the narrow body fleet. Today, this is only the A319, A320, and E190 fleets (about 200 aircraft) and removes the 325ish 737s and 230ish A321s. In 2018 for the data you mentioned, AA would have had lower utilization on the MD80 fleet as part of this as well. Not saying taking the larger planes into account would have a dramatic impact on the numbers you posted, just that it is a relatively smaller part of the AA fleet, even moreso today than in 2018.

Most of the routes brought up for AA in the opening post are from outstations heading back to CLT and DFW, which get the passengers in for the early hub banks as mentioned up thread. CLT and DFW are high margin hubs for AA and have been getting larger over the past year, maybe adding some additional early flights to fill out the early banks more.
 
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lugie
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:47 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
seat1a wrote:
And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!

Southwest only operates on 0s and 5s.


European airlines operate pretty much exclusively on 0s and 5s. In fact, I don't think you will find a departure time that doesn't end in 0 or 5 at any airport in Europe at all. TATL flights operated by US carriers may depart from or arrive at the US hub at any minute as per schedule but their arrival into and departure out of the European destination will have a rounded time.

As a European, I was very surprised when I flew to the US for the first time and saw flight times with scheduled departures or arrivals like 12:36pm, 9:17am, 6:04am, you name it.

These precise minute timings are used for trains here but I never considered it necessary for planes, since, in all honesty, departure times are often just rough orientations in reality - pushback may occur a few minutes early or late, depending on how boarding went, and then the taxi to takeoff pretty much never takes the same amount of time for the same flight number on different days.

But of course, for crew scheduling purposes and slots it makes sense, especially at some of the super-busy hub operations like CLT, ORD, ATL, DFW, SFO, DTW, etc.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:52 pm

FRNT787 wrote:
One thing to consider for AA on this. The 150 seat cut off you mentioned for the data removes a bunch of the narrow body fleet. Today, this is only the A319, A320, and E190 fleets (about 200 aircraft) and removes the 325ish 737s and 230ish A321s. In 2018 for the data you mentioned, AA would have had lower utilization on the MD80 fleet as part of this as well. Not saying taking the larger planes into account would have a dramatic impact on the numbers you posted, just that it is a relatively smaller part of the AA fleet, even moreso today than in 2018.


I gave a link in the earlier post. Look at the MIT data for large narrowbodies (oddly rounded to the nearest integer). AA is at the bottom there, too. It's rather curious given the relative newness of the AA fleet.
 
bnatraveler
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:59 pm

One reason for AA (and WN, for that matter) flying earlier and later is that they are trying to make up for a shortage in the fleet from the MAX. WN's flights at BNA are, on average, earlier and later right now than they are normally during a shoulder season. WN operates a late bank out of BNA in the summer but not normally year round. They don't normally operate the 5a departures, but they are these days. I would expect that they do get a slightly lower yield for these super early flights, but they contribute the overall productivity of the plane all day.
 
cal764
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:00 pm

So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?
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Adipocere
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:03 pm

Doesn’t PHX have even earlier 2-3am departures to CLT and DFW during the winter months?
 
cop6369
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:04 pm

avek00 wrote:
Business travelers. They love the first and last flights of the day to maximize productivity.

yes. Back in the 80's and 90's I would take AA first flight out of OKC to DFW and come home on the last DFW flight to OKC, all in one day.
 
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chepos
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:06 pm

bnatraveler wrote:
One reason for AA (and WN, for that matter) flying earlier and later is that they are trying to make up for a shortage in the fleet from the MAX. WN's flights at BNA are, on average, earlier and later right now than they are normally during a shoulder season. WN operates a late bank out of BNA in the summer but not normally year round. They don't normally operate the 5a departures, but they are these days. I would expect that they do get a slightly lower yield for these super early flights, but they contribute the overall productivity of the plane all day.


Not really, at least AA has been operating these early departures since the merger. Has nothing to do with the MAX.


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jfklganyc
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:09 pm

It is a US Airways holdover

They always started earlier than anyone else

Just a business philosophy I guess

Early bird gets the worm!
 
Boston757
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:13 pm

Pilot and FAs sure reflect these terribly early departures...ugg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
F27500
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:19 pm

Hey .. the early bird gets the worm ! Lol
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:35 pm

airlineguy1234 wrote:
I’ve always noticed when looking at the departure board on FR24, that at most airports, even non American hub airports, the first departure of the day is an American flight.

For Example (all on Friday, Feb 28, 2020)

LARGE AIRPORTS
ATL 507am departure to CLT
The first DL departure isn’t till 550am and there’s only one other departure in between, Frontier.

On Saturday, the 29th the difference is even more staggering. The first AA departure is at 512am to CLT and the first DL departure isn’t for over another hour to SLC at 630.

DEN 500am to DFW
Only after their 509am departure to CLT is the first non AA departure, WN to AUS at 515AM.

IAH 500am to DFW
First UA departure isn’t till 530am to DEN.

LAX 500am to MIA
First WN departure is at 515am to MSY, B6 530am to JFK, UA 537am to DEN, DL 559am to SLC.

LAS 500am to DFW
MCO 500am departure to CLT

MEDIUM/SMALL
RDU 515am to CLT
CHS 505am departure for CLT
BGR 512am departure for PHL
BDL 517am departure to DCA
TLH 500am to MIA
XNA 500am to DFW
Only after their 537am departure to ORD, is the first non AA departure, DL to MSP at 600am.
MCI 504am to CLT
Only after their 524am departure to MIA, is the first non AA departure, WN to PHX at 535am.
STL 507am to CLT





Why is this the case? I’m curious if anyone here knows the answer.


CMH 5:02am to CLT. Five of CMH's first six departures (all before 6am) are on AA (CLT, DCA, MIA, ORD, PHL); the other, and first non-AA, was a DL M88 to ATL.
DAY 5:00am to CLT.
CVG 5:15am to CLT.
CLE 5am to both MIA and CLT, with DCA two minutes later.
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:39 pm

cal764 wrote:
So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?


From what I've seen a crew that arrived at the outstation the day before mid afternoon will crew the early morning departures. Seems there's always a crew change around that time of day. The crew that arrived on the last flight in will crew the next day's afternoon departure. I know this due to the number of "the crew will need to board and do their safety checks" on departing late flight announcements.
 
PI4EVR
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:49 pm

US also had early scheduled departures from outstations inbound to hubs. TPA has consistently had a 0500 flight to CLT for years. There have been some 0500-0530 departures to PHL and MIA on occasion, but you can rely on AA220 being on the sked at 0500.
It has a consistent high load factor over all these years when many would think who would want to get up and be at the airport at 0330-0400 for a flight. DL currently has 2 departures to ATL @0510 and 0540.
The coffee shops are open so brisk business for them too.
 
kabq737
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:52 pm

They’re usually the first out of ABQ with a Mesa flight. It is scheduled to push at 5am but frequently leaves earlier. For example this morning they were headed out at 4:57. This flight was a US Airways flight at one point so it makes sense.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:58 pm

KD5MDK wrote:
I feel like love is really overstating it. Allows a trip to be one day or whatever instead adding overnights is more like it.

Agreed. Very few people "love" a 5 am flight. Maybe business traveler's accountants love them for not having to pay for a hotel overnight though.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:00 pm

The goes back to the US days. US was more dependent upon connecting passengers than its peers. In order for it's business passengers to make same day roundtrips, US had to have earlier departures to it's hubs so people could get to their final destination early enough to do a days business and return home.
 
Cubsrule
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Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:03 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
KD5MDK wrote:
I feel like love is really overstating it. Allows a trip to be one day or whatever instead adding overnights is more like it.

Agreed. Very few people "love" a 5 am flight. Maybe business traveler's accountants love them for not having to pay for a hotel overnight though.


Not accountants necessarily. I’d always rather be home with my family then in a hotel room - even a nice one. If I need to do high level thinking in the morning or start so early I have to spend a night, I will, but that’s not my preference.

Schedule-conscious travelers - who tend to be pretty high-yielding - need one of four things:

1) The first flight in;

2) The last flight out;

3) The flight that departs closest to X time; or

4) The flight that arrives closest to X time.

For connecting itineraries to or from the southeast, AA/CLT usually provides number one (and often number 2 too). That has very real value.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bigb
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:06 pm

cal764 wrote:
So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?


Big negative, Part 117 rest rules require at a minimum of 10 hours of rest. Most crews averages about 12-15 hours of rest depending on the number of legs they have performed.

Normally the First Flights of Day are crewed by crews who got to their overnight the morning to afternoon timeframe. Those crews that bring in the terminators for the RONs, will crew start the following day from mid-afternoon to the afternoon.

For example here my upcoming trip starting today.

XXX - DCA 1722-1820
DCA - YYY 1930-2103

I overnight in YYY tonight

Tomorrow I work and overnight in ZZZ

YYY - PHL 1349-1719
PHL - ZZZ 1927-2055
 
FURUREFA
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:09 pm

I don’t know if AA does this, but several airlines do “stand-ups” for the early am departures. Delta mainline, for instance, had a PVD where the inbound F/As arrived from DTW around midnight and crewed a ~5:30am departure back to DTW. Flight attendants were on duty the entire night.

The regionals do it often, not sure about the majors.
 
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usdcaguy
Posts: 1452
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:35 pm

FURUREFA wrote:
I don’t know if AA does this, but several airlines do “stand-ups” for the early am departures. Delta mainline, for instance, had a PVD where the inbound F/As arrived from DTW around midnight and crewed a ~5:30am departure back to DTW. Flight attendants were on duty the entire night.

The regionals do it often, not sure about the majors.


Do AA flight attendants have longer rest periods in their CBA than flight attendants at other carriers?
 
cledaybuck
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:53 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
KD5MDK wrote:
I feel like love is really overstating it. Allows a trip to be one day or whatever instead adding overnights is more like it.

Agreed. Very few people "love" a 5 am flight. Maybe business traveler's accountants love them for not having to pay for a hotel overnight though.


Not accountants necessarily. I’d always rather be home with my family then in a hotel room - even a nice one. If I need to do high level thinking in the morning or start so early I have to spend a night, I will, but that’s not my preference.

Schedule-conscious travelers - who tend to be pretty high-yielding - need one of four things:

1) The first flight in;

2) The last flight out;

3) The flight that departs closest to X time; or

4) The flight that arrives closest to X time.

For connecting itineraries to or from the southeast, AA/CLT usually provides number one (and often number 2 too). That has very real value.
I understand wanting to be home with family, but to make a 5 am flight, I need to be up at 2 or 2:30! I'm not doing that if I have any choice at all and my family understands. Heck, they probably don't want to be around me anyway that day if I had to get up at 2.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1199
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:00 pm

Some of this also goes back to an experiment US Airways West did in the mid 2000's. They at the time had a bunch of late night departures and ran late night connecting banks in PHX and LAS. The yields on these banks were attrociously low.

The tried instead to move those late evening flights to very early morning flights and created/beefed up early morning banks at PHX and CLT. These performed MUCH better.

Other airlines quite didn't pick up on this because they didn't have those late evening banks to "steal" from. They also had to have late evening banks in at least some of their hubs due to long-haul flying to South America.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3096
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:41 pm

tlecam wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.


This was my recollection too although I don’t have any evidence to support. I remember USAir in Boston having some (heinously IMO) early departures.


Yes, Northwest had some departures between 4am and 5am in the upper midwest to MSP, arriving at the same times that the redeyes from the west coast did.

the US Airways departures at 5AM are themselves a holdover from America West I believe. There were many departures between 5 and 6AM from the midwest to PHX/LAS. In many cases, America West/USAirways was the earliest in the day you could get to California from anywhere that required a connection in the midwest/east of the country. I think this was extrapolated from America West to USAirways to AA.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3252
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:46 pm

bigb wrote:
cal764 wrote:
So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?


Big negative, Part 117 rest rules require at a minimum of 10 hours of rest. Most crews averages about 12-15 hours of rest depending on the number of legs they have performed.

Normally the First Flights of Day are crewed by crews who got to their overnight the morning to afternoon timeframe. Those crews that bring in the terminators for the RONs, will crew start the following day from mid-afternoon to the afternoon.

For example here my upcoming trip starting today.

XXX - DCA 1722-1820
DCA - YYY 1930-2103

I overnight in YYY tonight

Tomorrow I work and overnight in ZZZ

YYY - PHL 1349-1719
PHL - ZZZ 1927-2055


Depends, some airlines do CDOs (Continuous Duty Overnights), where you do the last flight out and first flight in, and that’s the day
From my cold, dead hands
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4337
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:01 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
bigb wrote:
cal764 wrote:
So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?


Big negative, Part 117 rest rules require at a minimum of 10 hours of rest. Most crews averages about 12-15 hours of rest depending on the number of legs they have performed.

Normally the First Flights of Day are crewed by crews who got to their overnight the morning to afternoon timeframe. Those crews that bring in the terminators for the RONs, will crew start the following day from mid-afternoon to the afternoon.

For example here my upcoming trip starting today.

XXX - DCA 1722-1820
DCA - YYY 1930-2103

I overnight in YYY tonight

Tomorrow I work and overnight in ZZZ

YYY - PHL 1349-1719
PHL - ZZZ 1927-2055


Depends, some airlines do CDOs (Continuous Duty Overnights), where you do the last flight out and first flight in, and that’s the day

Those are pretty hard to do under the new regs. You only have about 8 hours of dirty time if you show that late.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:12 pm

Someone may have said this already, I scrolled through some rather quickly, but it's also hub location. Let's take Florida Northbound for example. What are your two options AA vs DL: ATL & CLT. So, if both have an 8a bank, with CLT being further North, it needs to leave a bit earlier. I'm over-simplifying some but that plays a part. Also, I believe if you look at DLs hubs for example: ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, LGA/JFK, BOS (sorta), SEA (sorta) vs AA: DFW, CLT, ORD, MIA, PHL, LAX, PHX...DL likely has less constraing on the airspace and landing capacity in their hubs vs AA & even UA (EWR, ORD, SFO, IAH, DEN, IAD). So they may be able to "squish" more flights into a tighter timeframe. There's a lot of science in it.

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