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EarlyLateORD
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:34 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:06 pm

For quite a long time AA offered one of the first departures from MSP in the AM, 5:00 AM MSP-ORD. It was a somewhat difficult flight to make because TSA only opens here at 4AM and many "nervous nellies" who are are on 6:00 "sun flights" line up extra early and clog up the works.

I loved the 5:00 AM flight when it worked for me, you could land at ORD by 6:30, I could then take the Metra NCS to Union Station and be downtown by 7:30AM!

Adam
 
phllax
Posts: 614
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:24 pm

32andBelow wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
bigb wrote:

Big negative, Part 117 rest rules require at a minimum of 10 hours of rest. Most crews averages about 12-15 hours of rest depending on the number of legs they have performed.

Normally the First Flights of Day are crewed by crews who got to their overnight the morning to afternoon timeframe. Those crews that bring in the terminators for the RONs, will crew start the following day from mid-afternoon to the afternoon.

For example here my upcoming trip starting today.

XXX - DCA 1722-1820
DCA - YYY 1930-2103

I overnight in YYY tonight

Tomorrow I work and overnight in ZZZ

YYY - PHL 1349-1719
PHL - ZZZ 1927-2055


Depends, some airlines do CDOs (Continuous Duty Overnights), where you do the last flight out and first flight in, and that’s the day

Those are pretty hard to do under the new regs. You only have about 8 hours of dirty time if you show that late.


But it is possible if the pairing is short distance, figure 500 miles or an hour or so air time. I know CLT-DCA did all nighters, so RDU, ATL, CHS, CMH, etc shouldn't be a problem either.
 
trueblew
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:37 pm

stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.



I noticed this as well. Almost every morning arriving at the outstation at a heinously early time, USAir was already pushing back when we hadn't even yet boarded. I suppose it's a holdover at American, but were they this way prior to the merger?
 
airzona11
Posts: 1784
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:13 pm

Being PHX based, AA is always who I fly when I need to be in SoCal/NorCal//TX as early in the day as possible to avoid flying in the night before. The rest of my flying primarily WN.
 
MR27122
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:09 pm

avek00 wrote:
Business travelers. They love the first and last flights of the day to maximize productivity.


Jan-Jun I fly B6 x-country from BOS regularly & fortunately my INC pays for Mint. I deliberately re-book onto the LAX/SEA/SFO - JFK flight & connect to BOS (# of flt segments count towards Mosaic---so by June I have 24 min towards 30 needed).

My flight "uniform" are a pair of sweatpants, sneakers, sweater, BASEBALL CAP---no matter time of day (I change @ an airline club or a terminal clothing store w/ dressings room upon arr).

I do "enjoy" Biz Travel "people watching". Two"types" amaze me....

1) Red-eye biz folk who board in a full suit & tie...& never unbutton top of shirt & they "generally" look energized upon our 4:48AM (or whatever) arrival into JFK. I look as if I slept on a 3rd rail & often need to look @ boarding pass to recall where I am.

2) The "early bird" Biz person on the connection flight to Boston (it use to be like a 6:30AM dep....but it's now 7:30AM I think). While I'm blinking my eyes every millisecond & staring out the "window" w/ the shade down---no cognitive ability to figure out how to "operate shade" after red-eye connect. The "early bird" Biz person is hammering away on a laptop, sending texts, looking @ spreadsheets/briefs, etc....& i'm thinking "What time did they need to get up at to look this fresh at 6:30AM and be so engaged and awake!!!!"
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:38 pm

stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.



Agree. US Air always had the 5 am’ers.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2467
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:24 pm

In April I am taking an AS flight nonstop from FLL to SFO that leaves at 6 am but arrives at SFO at 0930 am which is nice. Seems like this flight is operating only during Spring Break/Easter.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2342
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:03 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.



Agree. US Air always had the 5 am’ers.

There is an old US Air ad on YouTube advertising that by 7AM some percentage of their fleet was already in the air.
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aeromoe
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:48 am

FURUREFA wrote:
I don’t know if AA does this, but several airlines do “stand-ups” for the early am departures. Delta mainline, for instance, had a PVD where the inbound F/As arrived from DTW around midnight and crewed a ~5:30am departure back to DTW. Flight attendants were on duty the entire night.

The regionals do it often, not sure about the majors.


As a fare-paying passenger I have done Frontier flights DEN-PHX PHX-DEN arriving on the "midnight" arrival at PHX and departing on the 5am-ish departure back to DEN with the same cabin crew both flights. Same aircraft, too.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2232
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:01 am

avek00 wrote:
Business travelers. They love the first and last flights of the day to maximize productivity.


As a bus traveler who's flown about 1900 flights in the last 11 years, I can say that is not always true. I avoid any flight that leaves before 7a and departs after 8p. Good sleep is more important to me, and I know I'll never get that on an airplane. I'd much rather work into the evening (entertaining customers, or catching up on emails) and take a reasonably timed flight the next day to keep my sleep on skd.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
ATLFlyer1234
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:38 am

I often notice many options that involve a connection in either CLT with AA or ATL with DL between the same two city pairs, and agree that AA's options are just way too early - and often have longer layovers in a worse airport, on worse equipment. On many shorthaul routes across the east coast, it becomes one additional reason why AA is not a competitive option for higher yield travelers.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2141
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:19 am

cedarjet wrote:
OTOH it seems like United always have the first westbound departure from Europe back to the United States, especially their 757 flights when they had lots of them, departure times out of Berlin, Bristol etc always seemed to be around 0900 with a midday arrival into Newark. Not just narrow bodies though, I took a 747 out of Heathrow to Chicago at 0750, they have a similar departure to Dulles (07-something).

Very good for aircraft utilisation, if the aircraft is back in the States by midday (or even earlier) it can do another long sector in the day. For instance I took a TXL EWR flight that landed at 1200, connected to SFO an hour and a half later, operated by the same bird. So it operates a red eye to Germany, a daylight back, and by 1600 PST it’s on the deck in San Francisco, then probably on to Hawaii and a red eye back to California. That’s a good use of the asset. Early bird catches the worm!


That is a legacy of the CO days. CO used a lot of 757s on TATL flights out of EWR and had early westbound departures from Europe back and then used the plane to fly on to Florida, Northern Latin America, or the US West Coast. CO had one of the highest aircraft utilization rates of any airline at that time.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:21 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.



Agree. US Air always had the 5 am’ers.


They also had very late night banks in/out of LAS when it was a hub, inherited from HP.
 
nwa man
Posts: 1752
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:33 am

RDUDDJI wrote:
avek00 wrote:
Business travelers. They love the first and last flights of the day to maximize productivity.


As a bus traveler who's flown about 1900 flights in the last 11 years, I can say that is not always true. I avoid any flight that leaves before 7a and departs after 8p. Good sleep is more important to me, and I know I'll never get that on an airplane. I'd much rather work into the evening (entertaining customers, or catching up on emails) and take a reasonably timed flight the next day to keep my sleep on skd.


+1, exec-ish role now, same rules.

Used to love the 5a/6am flights to “maximize productivity” and “spend one less night off the road” — until realizing that “night” before a trip, really more like 2-3 hours, makes you a walking zombie with massive intestinal problems who is a significant percentage less capable of functioning, processing or leading at a high level.

If you’re so needed at an important 9a meeting that the 5a flight enables, isn’t it really best to fly in the night before anyway?

Would be interesting to see yield comparisons between 5a and 7a flights on certain city pairs. I’d bet folks on 5a flights are largely doing so because it’s cheaper than a more reasonable time.

Edited to add: first post in more than 12 years. Love this damn site.
Create your own luck.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 am

JohanTally wrote:
That's how airlines with banked hubs typically function the first departures come from outstations and arrive within 30-45 minutes of each other during normal ops and then they depart in the same manner. AA has 9 banks of departures at CLT 7-8a 9-10a 11-12p 1245-1330 1415-1515 1600-1645 1745-1830 1945-2030 2200-2300 and almost all departures are scheduled in those windows. A fair amount of the flights that depart at the end of the night are the first aircraft that arrive the following morning.


That's crazy. CLT and DFW have more than enough departures to be rolling hubs.
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:50 am

lugie wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
seat1a wrote:
And regarding departures at 5:04am, 5:12am, and 5:17am. Why so precise, why not 5:05am, 5:10am, or 5:15am? Why not simply depart on the 0's and 5's?

Asking for a friend. Thanks!

Southwest only operates on 0s and 5s.


European airlines operate pretty much exclusively on 0s and 5s. In fact, I don't think you will find a departure time that doesn't end in 0 or 5 at any airport in Europe at all. TATL flights operated by US carriers may depart from or arrive at the US hub at any minute as per schedule but their arrival into and departure out of the European destination will have a rounded time.

As a European, I was very surprised when I flew to the US for the first time and saw flight times with scheduled departures or arrivals like 12:36pm, 9:17am, 6:04am, you name it.

These precise minute timings are used for trains here but I never considered it necessary for planes, since, in all honesty, departure times are often just rough orientations in reality - pushback may occur a few minutes early or late, depending on how boarding went, and then the taxi to takeoff pretty much never takes the same amount of time for the same flight number on different days.

But of course, for crew scheduling purposes and slots it makes sense, especially at some of the super-busy hub operations like CLT, ORD, ATL, DFW, SFO, DTW, etc.


Pretty much the same in Asia too. The only exception seems to be 11:59pm to avoid confusion for midnight departures.
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 564
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:14 am

bigb wrote:
cal764 wrote:
So, is the first departure from the outstation crewed by the last arrival the prior evening? If there is a science to it, then crew rest times would be cutting it close, no?


Big negative, Part 117 rest rules require at a minimum of 10 hours of rest. Most crews averages about 12-15 hours of rest depending on the number of legs they have performed.

Normally the First Flights of Day are crewed by crews who got to their overnight the morning to afternoon timeframe. Those crews that bring in the terminators for the RONs, will crew start the following day from mid-afternoon to the afternoon.

For example here my upcoming trip starting today.

XXX - DCA 1722-1820
DCA - YYY 1930-2103

I overnight in YYY tonight

Tomorrow I work and overnight in ZZZ

YYY - PHL 1349-1719
PHL - ZZZ 1927-2055


So you're a PSA FA who works CRJ-700s and is flying ORF-DCA-PNS today (28 Feb), overnighting in PNS, and flying PNS-PHL-CAK tomorrow?
Next flights:
AA1003 STL-ORD Airbus A319 November 25
AA3170 ORD-ASE Bombardier CRJ-700 November 25
AA3247 ASE-ORD Bombardier CRJ-700 November 29
AA1960 ORD-STL Airbus A319 November 29
 
stlgph
Posts: 11229
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:39 am

trueblew wrote:
stlgph wrote:
As I recall USAir/Airways started off early and by the looks of the cities primarily listed, could be a hold over for something which has worked for them.

Northwest, as I recall, started pretty early, too.



I noticed this as well. Almost every morning arriving at the outstation at a heinously early time, USAir was already pushing back when we hadn't even yet boarded. I suppose it's a holdover at American, but were they this way prior to the merger?


On what I can recall personally, yes, as I remember a number of flights at the ungodly hour to Pittsburgh in the USAir days - not US Airways but USAir. And we were 2 hours from the airport and I always remember thinking ..."why dad, why?" But once we got to our destination by say 9 a.m. - hey, we have the whole day to play!

Of note, I remember at IND that 515a departure - we would always push back and get the hell out of there. Sometimes we did fly out at 6a through CLT or PHL and I can remember it being 6a in the morning and we had to wait 10-15 minutes for take off because every other airline pushed back from every other gate at 6a, too, and of course my flight would be the one that push back last and be in the last of the pack.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:02 am

SeoulIncheon wrote:
lugie wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Southwest only operates on 0s and 5s.


European airlines operate pretty much exclusively on 0s and 5s. In fact, I don't think you will find a departure time that doesn't end in 0 or 5 at any airport in Europe at all. TATL flights operated by US carriers may depart from or arrive at the US hub at any minute as per schedule but their arrival into and departure out of the European destination will have a rounded time.

As a European, I was very surprised when I flew to the US for the first time and saw flight times with scheduled departures or arrivals like 12:36pm, 9:17am, 6:04am, you name it.

These precise minute timings are used for trains here but I never considered it necessary for planes, since, in all honesty, departure times are often just rough orientations in reality - pushback may occur a few minutes early or late, depending on how boarding went, and then the taxi to takeoff pretty much never takes the same amount of time for the same flight number on different days.

But of course, for crew scheduling purposes and slots it makes sense, especially at some of the super-busy hub operations like CLT, ORD, ATL, DFW, SFO, DTW, etc.


Pretty much the same in Asia too. The only exception seems to be 11:59pm to avoid confusion for midnight departures.

Sabre the GDS that many airlines including AA use don’t handle flights scheduled at 0000 well at all. I think it just doesn’t even work.
 
doulasc
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:28 am

AT CMH AA has two non stops to PHX one leaves at 7AM and the other at 8AM.Why not a morning non stop and a afternoon non stop.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:06 pm

doulasc wrote:
AT CMH AA has two non stops to PHX one leaves at 7AM and the other at 8AM.Why not a morning non stop and a afternoon non stop.


Connections. AA likely has 2 heavy banks of flights that go out mid to late morning.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3886
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:00 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
doulasc wrote:
AT CMH AA has two non stops to PHX one leaves at 7AM and the other at 8AM.Why not a morning non stop and a afternoon non stop.


I see flights at 7am and 6pm.
 
doulasc
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:12 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:48 am

usflyer msp wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
doulasc wrote:
AT CMH AA has two non stops to PHX one leaves at 7AM and the other at 8AM.Why not a morning non stop and a afternoon non stop.


I see flights at 7am and 6pm.

I will be traveling in July the two nonstops are 7AM and 8AM,I am on the 8AM July 7,right now AA nonstops are 7AM and 6pm
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3886
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:46 am

doulasc wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
doulasc wrote:
AT CMH AA has two non stops to PHX one leaves at 7AM and the other at 8AM.Why not a morning non stop and a afternoon non stop.


I see flights at 7am and 6pm.

I will be traveling in July the two nonstops are 7AM and 8AM,I am on the 8AM July 7,right now AA nonstops are 7AM and 6pm


The schedule is only is firm until June so do be surprised if that schedule changes to the normal flight times. AA has some weird quirks in their default schedule.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:46 am

Legacy US had their first bank at CLT very early in the AM. For instance they always had a 737 leaving at 5am out of EWR. Same deal.
 
WWads
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:18 pm

Re: Why does AA start their schedule earlier in the day?

Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:38 am

Lol anyone who takes an 0500 is nuts. The 0600 DCA-JFK flight on Delta is bad enough.

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