Welcome to the Indian Aviation Thread for March 2020. Please continue to post your updates and to add your comments here.

Link to previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1440183

Air India will maintain 10x weekly flights between Mumbai and London Heathrow in Summer 2020. Daily flights on B777 and additional flights on Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays on B787

Air India will have 31 weekly departures/arrivals at London Heathrow in Summer 2020:
Delhi - 14 (7x B777/7x B787)
Mumbai - 10 (7x B777/3x B787)
Ahmedabad - 4 (B787)
Bengaluru - 3 (B787)

SeanM1997 wrote:

Air India will maintain 10x weekly flights between Mumbai and London Heathrow in Summer 2020. Daily flights on B777 and additional flights on Tuesdays, Thursdays & Saturdays on B787

Air India will have 31 weekly departures/arrivals at London Heathrow in Summer 2020:
Delhi - 14 (7x B777/7x B787)
Mumbai - 10 (7x B777/3x B787)
Ahmedabad - 4 (B787)
Bengaluru - 3 (B787)

Thanks for the info Sean. It is amazing how their temporary 3X additional ended up being valid through Summer 2020. It makes me wonder whether, effectively, Air India has luckily also permanently locked it up for themselves.

Does anyone know when will BA resume the 3rd BOM flight which started last year?

Per their face book page, Vistara to announce something big (probably to "introduce" their 787 to the Indian public and announce its initial domestic; and international plans (eff May 2020) on MONDAY, March 2, 2020

IndiGo commences daily direct flights on Agartala-Aizawl-Guwahati route under UDAN

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/indig ... 398561.htm

binayak wrote:

Does anyone know when will BA resume the 3rd BOM flight which started last year?

From Summer Schedule eff 29MAR20 additional x5 weekly BOM-LHR on a 789. Total weekly would be x19 weekly, with one service being upgauged to 744 (other too from May end).

Does anyone know why 6E is abruptly ending its 2x daily Chennai - Kozhikode route after 28MAR2020?

acavpics wrote:

Does anyone know why 6E is abruptly ending its 2x daily Chennai - Kozhikode route after 28MAR2020?

Because, of the obvious, it is losing money on the route.

Gone in 60 seconds

Branded watch disappears while X-ray screening at Pune airport

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 410974.cms

Why doesn't AI fly direct to LHR from other big Indian cities like CCU and MAA? There is either no direct service at all, or it is done by BA instead.

Have AI ever had a foothold on those routes, if not, then why do they let BA muscle in?

acavpics wrote:

Does anyone know why 6E is abruptly ending its 2x daily Chennai - Kozhikode route after 28MAR2020?

They're not. They are in fact upgauging from 2x daily ATR to 1x daily A320 from 29th March.

Clackers wrote:

Why doesn't AI fly direct to LHR from other big Indian cities like CCU and MAA? There is either no direct service at all, or it is done by BA instead.

Have AI ever had a foothold on those routes, if not, then why do they let BA muscle in?

They never really had long-haul ops from southern India, unitl recently when they launched BLR-LHR. They've always focussed on their hubs DEL/BOM for long haul services, with some exceptions from places like Ahmedabad/Amritsar-which again is North/West India. South and East part of the country don't apparently fit into their strategy for long haul ops, and they would rather connect these places through their hubs.

Also regarding LHR, slots are not easy to come by.
One could also similarly ask why BA doesn't have long-haul services from Northern UK (Scotland).

Clackers wrote:

Why doesn't AI fly direct to LHR from other big Indian cities like CCU and MAA? There is either no direct service at all, or it is done by BA instead.

Have AI ever had a foothold on those routes, if not, then why do they let BA muscle in?

The first and foremost job of AI is to connect ATQ to the world, until lights out. MoCA Puri has no shame in abusing his power.

Did VT-TBD arrive in India, TBD is not a typo. Looks like two of the four 789s are taped up for storage. With two 789s and $2 Million/month lease/insurance/mx payments, and the commercial plan is TBD, Vistara's debt clock started ticking must faster.

avier wrote:

Clackers wrote:

Why doesn't AI fly direct to LHR from other big Indian cities like CCU and MAA? There is either no direct service at all, or it is done by BA instead.

Have AI ever had a foothold on those routes, if not, then why do they let BA muscle in?

They never really had long-haul ops from southern India, unitl recently when they launched BLR-LHR. They've always focussed on their hubs DEL/BOM for long haul services, with some exceptions from places like Ahmedabad/Amritsar-which again is North/West India. South and East part of the country don't apparently fit into their strategy for long haul ops, and they would rather connect these places through their hubs.

Also regarding LHR, slots are not easy to come by.
One could also similarly ask why BA doesn't have long-haul services from Northern UK (Scotland).

The LHR slot issue being the most significant bottleneck, Something to ponder:
1. Is BA using the temporary coronavirus disruptions test 2 x daily at BLR? If yes, is that a missed opportunity for AI to increase BLR instead of alternating w/ AMD?
2. With BA announcing a crew base in HYD, have they got that market sewn up or is there space for one more LON flight (LGW/STN??)?
3. Not knowing how ATQ/BOM-STN is doing, I still wouldn't write off another STN, maybe from MAA??

There are 3 outcomes from Monday’s likely announcement of Vistara’s medium haul destinations.

Great outcome (couldn’t get better)
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x DEL to Tokyo Haneda

Moderate outcome
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x to Tokyo Narita
OR
7X DEL to London Gatwick and 7x to Tokyo Haneda

Bad outcome (huge disappointment)
7x DEL to LOndon Gatwick and 7x DEL to Tokyo Narita

What Do you think would be the outcome? Not what you wish but what do you think will be the likely outcome.

My bet is on the “moderate” outcome scenario.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Did VT-TBD arrive in India, TBD is not a typo. Looks like two of the four 789s are taped up for storage. With two 789s and $2 Million/month lease/insurance/mx payments, and the commercial plan is TBD, Vistara's debt clock started ticking must faster.

Those airframes are the Hainan NTUs which aren't being taken up by UK, apparently. Now that their 'taped up' images are popping up on the internet, perhaps Biman isn't taking them either...

VT-TSD, which arrived in India today, is the first of the planes that originally were built for Vistara.

VTORD wrote:

The LHR slot issue being the most significant bottleneck, Something to ponder:
1. Is BA using the temporary coronavirus disruptions test 2 x daily at BLR? If yes, is that a missed opportunity for AI to increase BLR instead of alternating w/ AMD?
2. With BA announcing a crew base in HYD, have they got that market sewn up or is there space for one more LON flight (LGW/STN??)?
3. Not knowing how ATQ/BOM-STN is doing, I still wouldn't write off another STN, maybe from MAA??

Considering AI's precarious financial situation and likely sale/privatisation, I doubt they are in a situation to be testing and adding more such routes. That too from places where they don't have WB crew/aircraft based. They are running tight on aircraft and crew utilisation, because of groundings of a/c and a freeze on new crew hiring coupled with a lot of resignations, as employees aren't convinced about the future of the carrier.
They could have easily used the x3 new weekly LHR slots they somehow managed to get to add to the BLR/AMD frequencies. But they didn't, they added more to BOM along with BOM-STN.
Regarding BA, most certainly yes, that capacity is definitely coming from cancellations of coronavirus affected sectors. They have added such new flights elsewhere to US & South Africa too.

Speaking of covid-19, Garuda Indonesia is considering adding such temporary flights to India (Mumbai/Delhi) from Bali. This is from spare capacity they have due to large scale flight reductions in their network because of covid-19.
https://coconuts.co/bali/news/garuda-in ... -outbreak/

trinidadeG wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Did VT-TBD arrive in India, TBD is not a typo. Looks like two of the four 789s are taped up for storage. With two 789s and $2 Million/month lease/insurance/mx payments, and the commercial plan is TBD, Vistara's debt clock started ticking must faster.

Those airframes are the Hainan NTUs which aren't being taken up by UK, apparently. Now that their 'taped up' images are popping up on the internet, perhaps Biman isn't taking them either...

VT-TSD, which arrived in India today, is the first of the planes that originally were built for Vistara.

I guess that when Vistara’s CEO was in Seattle to take delivery of its first 787, he made clear that it would not take up Boeing’s great offer on the 4 ex Hainan 787s. Hence, the inevitable taping up of the aircraft. Maybe should have made an incredible as opposed to just great offer. Sometimes, it is better for Boeing to cut its losses than to hold on to aircraft especially on top of the hundreds of Max that were
Produced but not delivered as yet.

fortunerunner wrote:

VTORD wrote:

hohd wrote:

I think even PNQ would be a great candidate. They used to have the Privat Air flight for a long time which was discontinued.

I'm pretty certain that the first instance LH gets a plane capable of flying to PNQ, it will be launched. Their PrivatAir flight was very popular and would not have been withdrawn if PrivatAir issues had not happened. Their other narrow bodies lack business product which was required for PNQ service as its mainly used by executives of VW, Mercedese etc. who shuttle between FRA and PNQ and did not tolerate makeshift business class of blocked economy seats and hence their airbus product was withdrawn due to lack of feasible aircraft.

If only did politicians get off their fat behinds and either expand existing PNQ to handle widebodies (runway length/terminal upgrade etc) or build new airport at Purandar/Chakan or wherever which they have been talking for last decade and more, there will be flights to from the likes of LH, EK and perhaps even BA/KL/AF etc. Just take a look at number of cabs doing airport runs from Pune to BOM to get an idea of international demand from PNQ which unfortunately keeps getting step motherly treatment due to not being a capital of a state which BLR/HYD etc are.

Do note that 9W had regular flights between BOM and PNQ. After Jet collapsed nobody has filled the void and I believe Uber is making a killing on rides between BOM and PNQ. It is telling that QR uses its limited Indian rights to serve NAG, a smaller city in Maharashtra, but not PNQ which is greatly needed.

VTCIE wrote:

fortunerunner wrote:

VTORD wrote:

I think even PNQ would be a great candidate. They used to have the Privat Air flight for a long time which was discontinued.

I'm pretty certain that the first instance LH gets a plane capable of flying to PNQ, it will be launched. Their PrivatAir flight was very popular and would not have been withdrawn if PrivatAir issues had not happened. Their other narrow bodies lack business product which was required for PNQ service as its mainly used by executives of VW, Mercedese etc. who shuttle between FRA and PNQ and did not tolerate makeshift business class of blocked economy seats and hence their airbus product was withdrawn due to lack of feasible aircraft.

If only did politicians get off their fat behinds and either expand existing PNQ to handle widebodies (runway length/terminal upgrade etc) or build new airport at Purandar/Chakan or wherever which they have been talking for last decade and more, there will be flights to from the likes of LH, EK and perhaps even BA/KL/AF etc. Just take a look at number of cabs doing airport runs from Pune to BOM to get an idea of international demand from PNQ which unfortunately keeps getting step motherly treatment due to not being a capital of a state which BLR/HYD etc are.

Do note that 9W had regular flights between BOM and PNQ. After Jet collapsed nobody has filled the void and I believe Uber is making a killing on rides between BOM and PNQ. It is telling that QR uses its limited Indian rights to serve NAG, a smaller city in Maharashtra, but not PNQ which is greatly needed.

If i remember correctly NAG is served because the then aviation minister tied QR getting more rights if they started NAG. So don’t know how much business has to do with it.

At NAG, QR has no competition, but with PNQ, BOM itself is competition.

For southern cities, AI to anywhere but LHR, wont work, since surprising number of passengers still connect at LHR on itineraries sold by airline web sites. For AI, HYD is the best choice to expand, as MAA already has (or will have) 3 European airlines operating. For CCU, only BA can be somewhat successful, combined with some O & D and extensive connecting traffic. Doubt even AI can be successful on CCU-LHR route.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

VTCIE wrote:

fortunerunner wrote:

If i remember correctly NAG is served because the then aviation minister tied QR getting more rights if they started NAG. So don’t know how much business has to do with it.

Exactly. That's called a shrewd tactician and....... politician (Bringing "home" (his political constituents/voters) the bacon. Puri should have employed the same strategy for 1x narrow body for Turkish to Amritsar that I mentioned up thread.

The same minister who gave QR those rights, also forced Boeing as part of the "offsets" program, to build a MRO for Air India at, hold your breath, Nagpur. That's what politicians do, successfully, for their constituents.

By the way, QR, for a few years, grumbled about Nagpur since they couldn't fill it with seats. But, once further expansion of the QR bilateral was blocked, NAG now does relatively well and to QR's benefit, it has zero competition as someone else mentioned (QR is the only carrier at NAG that opens up the world for its residents (via Doha).

hohd wrote:

At NAG, QR has no competition, but with PNQ, BOM itself is competition.

For southern cities, AI to anywhere but LHR, wont work, since surprising number of passengers still connect at LHR on itineraries sold by airline web sites. For AI, HYD is the best choice to expand, as MAA already has (or will have) 3 European airlines operating. For CCU, only BA can be somewhat successful, combined with some O & D and extensive connecting traffic. Doubt even AI can be successful on CCU-LHR route.

Good points.

The thing is that, in a parliamentary democracy, where the MP also becomes a minister, the ability to deliver "pork" or "goodies" is something that constituents count on. QR wouldnt have flown to NAG if the MP wasnt also the minister of Civil Aviation. If GOI wants to have an airline, there is nothing wrong in a minister wanting ATQ-STN, esp if he is from ATQ, London has a lot of relatives of his constituents etc. While ATQ-STN might be loosing money, it is no more or no less sensible than DEL-MAD or DEL-CPH.

Mangaluru to Hubbali flight to commence

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 419379.cms

Bonanza for Indore as Indigo starts 8 flights

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.freepr ... e-in-march

hohd wrote:

At NAG, QR has no competition, but with PNQ, BOM itself is competition.

PNQ can sustain multiple international flights on its own without being any competition at all to slot constrained BOM until Navi Mumbai comes online.

JOYA380B747 wrote:

hohd wrote:

At NAG, QR has no competition, but with PNQ, BOM itself is competition.

PNQ can sustain multiple international flights on its own without being any competition at all to slot constrained BOM until Navi Mumbai comes online.

PNQ is a slot constrained as well. International carriers need to get a slot of airport’s choice as opposed to the airlines own choice, which means it ain’t great for financial viability.

RE NAG:
Yeah that's an interesting route. But what is more interesting is that the minister in question has been out of power for 6 years now and the route still exists. Unless QR is trying to appease the philosophical alma mater of Narendra Modi who are HQ'd in Nagpur.

VTCIE wrote:

Do note that 9W had regular flights between BOM and PNQ. After Jet collapsed nobody has filled the void and I believe Uber is making a killing on rides between BOM and PNQ. It is telling that QR uses its limited Indian rights to serve NAG, a smaller city in Maharashtra, but not PNQ which is greatly needed.

Yup that flight was like 20 minutes from pushback to touchdown! From what I know KK Travels is making an absolute killing on the Mumbai-Pune airport runs.

RE 6E's IDR expansion:
I am surprised it took them so long to connect BDQ with IDR (after AMD) but perhaps they didn't have the right aircraft rotation worked out. 9W used to run this sector on ATRs for a very brief time in late 2018.

VTORD wrote:

RE NAG:
Yeah that's an interesting route. But what is more interesting is that the minister in question has been out of power for 6 years now and the route still exists. Unless QR is trying to appease the philosophical alma mater of Narendra Modi who are HQ'd in Nagpur.

I don't think its got anything to do with RSS appeasement. The route seems to be doing well with a more mature QR network. A good part of my family resides in NAG and ATL and use QR very frequently....

edealinfo wrote:

QR is the only carrier at NAG that opens up the world for its residents (via Doha).

And to some extent Air Arabia via SHJ, not the world per-se but offers something, that is better than nothing.

edealinfo wrote:

There are 3 outcomes from Monday’s likely announcement of Vistara’s medium haul destinations.

Great outcome (couldn’t get better)
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x DEL to Tokyo Haneda

Moderate outcome
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x to Tokyo Narita
OR
7X DEL to London Gatwick and 7x to Tokyo Haneda

Bad outcome (huge disappointment)
7x DEL to LOndon Gatwick and 7x DEL to Tokyo Narita

What Do you think would be the outcome? Not what you wish but what do you think will be the likely outcome.

My bet is on the “moderate” outcome scenario.

Hahahaha … thanks I really needed that.

Where are the LHR slots going to come from? SQ would be committing suicide if they gave up one of their own.

Can you confirm where the Haneda slots a coming from?

What you say is a bad outcome, is most likely the realistic scenario, but hey stranger things have happened. Even let’s say they do have slots for Haneda and LHR, what are the chances they will profitable?

Just remember the Indian market is not yet sophisticated and is still heavily price sensitive. Airlines such as Kingfisher and Jet Airways provided classy services and products and tried to raise the standards but we all know how those stories ended. Vistara tried to do the same thing and came to their senses.

So I doubt the Indian market cares whether it’s Gatwick or Narita. Most of them would be happy to pay the cheapest ticket. I know my wife would not care between LHR or Gatwick, what ever is the cheapest ticket, she is even happy to fly LCC.

For those who understand “you get what you pay for”, will fly BA or ANA or JL. I love the Indian euphemism of “bad quality” for being cheap.

AA announces timings for SEA-BLR

From SEA: Flight AA200 Departure: 17:55 Arrival in BLR: 23:45+1
From BLR: Flight AA201 Departure: 03:05 Arrival in SEA: 06:00

The schedule is subject to Government approval. The travel time is about 16 hours and 20 minutes both ways. There is likely to be a slight change to the timings when Daylight Saving starts in March.

The schedule is perfect for West Coast connections and fairly ideal both ways for Business travelers. Not very convenient for middle Americans from AUS/SAT/IAH etc unless we make a connection at DFW.

Please keep politics out of this thread. Thanks.

edealinfo wrote:

There are 3 outcomes from Monday’s likely announcement of Vistara’s medium haul destinations.

Great outcome (couldn’t get better)
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x DEL to Tokyo Haneda

Moderate outcome
7x DEL to LOndon Heathrow and 7x to Tokyo Narita
OR
7X DEL to London Gatwick and 7x to Tokyo Haneda

Bad outcome (huge disappointment)
7x DEL to LOndon Gatwick and 7x DEL to Tokyo Narita

What Do you think would be the outcome? Not what you wish but what do you think will be the likely outcome.

My bet is on the “moderate” outcome scenario.

I don't know why you feel Gatwick is "bad" or a "huge disappointment". Vistara is a small and loss making airline. Regardless of SQ or Tata, they cannot afford a London slot unless it is free. Why would you think that starting flights from Gatwick, which is not that bad, is a huge disappointment? They can always move over to Heathrow later or just add flights there at a later date. The only disappointment will be if they can't make money on their 787s. That's the bad outcome. It really doesn't matter if it is Heathrow or Gatwick or Haneda or Narita, as long as they are making money on the route, which they would research enough before commencing service.

PLF for some intl airlines at BLR (Error at + or -3%)

VTORD wrote:

RE NAG:
Yeah that's an interesting route. But what is more interesting is that the minister in question has been out of power for 6 years now and the route still exists. Unless QR is trying to appease the philosophical alma mater of Narendra Modi who are HQ'd in Nagpur.
.

The QR route to Nagpur succeeds for the following reasons:

1. QR is blocked from further expansion in India. While traffic between India and Doha, and India and the rest of the world, has grown substantially, and with EK, QR and EY blocked, people use existing routes to the fullest.

2. QR is the only carrier that offers NAGpur residents an outlet to the world. (Air Arabia is nothing, "in comparison").

sand26391 wrote:

PLF for some intl airlines at BLR (Error at + or -3%)

Wow, QR is crushing the competition.

airboss787 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

I don't know why you feel Gatwick is "bad" or a "huge disappointment".

Well, there is no way that Vistara is going to get LHR slots for free. And, in capitalism, there is a reason that LHR slots cost more money. It generates more revenue for the airline so much so that it offsets the costs, to justify the investment. So, as an example, even though it may cost a couple of millions to lease a slot each year, if you spread out the costs over an entire year, and over the costs of all the seats available for sale, that would mean an additional cost of say $35 roundtrip per ticket (or about $17 one way). [Assumption: $4 million annual lease cost, divided by 365 days, divided by 300 seats roundtrip). Would someone pay $35 more to fly out of LHR over Gatwick. Sure, once you factor, the value of one's time, that LHR is better and faster connected to central London, that LHR is closer to the Indian community, that LHR has gazillions of other connections to Europe, and the Americas, and that Vistara's partners - British Airways and United have a big presence at LHR thereby offering seamless connections. There is a reason LHR is a “platinum “ (my word) airport.

Think about it, $17 more each way more for slot lease costs for LHR, and guess how much more Vistara can get for a business or premium economy seat for flying the aircraft to LHR rather than Gatwick.

As for Haneda, its slot value is arguably more valuable than that of LHR but it can't be traded for value. And guess, what, for the first time in possibly 4 decades, Japan was kind enough to offer one route trip Haneda daytime slot to any Indian carrier, when the much of the rest of the world carriers, which would have been willing to pay an arm and a leg were denied.

Another poster said Indians couldn't care about Haneda or Narita because their focus is on costs. If so, why in the world would they want to travel to Tokyo/Japan which is the most expensive city in Asia. Their hotel stay and food would be far more expensive than the price of their ticket to Japan, for heaven's sake. People who fly to Japan have cash and they want the convenience of an airport close to the City. And heck, why not? It is offered to India for free by the Japanese. The only idiots here would be Vistara for forgoing a once in a 100 year (40 years past + 60 years into the future) opportunity for free daytime "titanium" Haneda slots.

IndiGo to launch direct flight services to Jeddah, Riyadh and Dammam from Calicut

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.arabia ... om-calicut

Air India occupancy factor rises to 80 percent systemwide. Increase in occupancy from heavily discounting last minute fares.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newind ... 110386.amp

oceanvikram wrote:

1. Where are the LHR slots going to come from? SQ would be committing suicide if they gave up one of their own.

2. Can you confirm where the Haneda slots a coming from?
.

#1 available for lease Or outright purchase from numerous parties just as in any market. There is a price for all slots. As an example, Recently, South AFrican Airways put its LHR slots on the market

#2. The Japanese government released slots after the US military decided to release some of its traffic over Japanese airspace. As a consequence, 50 slot pairs were created. Half for it, 25 slots, were released Equally for Japanese and US carriers for service from Haneda to the US. The remaining 25 were distributed equally to Japan and selected countries. One slot Pair was mysteriously equally allocated to India and Japan for service to India. Since 2 Japanese carriers were flying to India, ANA and JL, they had to share a slot pair meaning only one way of their round trip to Delhi would be during daytime at Haneda. Nevertheless, both the Jap carriers decided to switch their Delhi service from Narita to Haneda (eff March 29) demonstrating just how valuable these Haneda slots are especially to business travelers. An Indian carrier now has the opportunity of a round trip slot pair to Haneda on a silver platter. When has the lottery last struck? If Vistara let’s this go by that’s the equivalent of Vistara giving up free LHR slots. Get it?!

The only thorn with Haneda is that service is supposed to start by March 29. However, with the caronavirus, Vistara can presumably use it as an excuse to defer service and I am fairly certain that given the excellent India-Japense relationship, the Japanese would accommodate. The other issue is that Vistara’s partner, JAL, already decided to switch their own DEL service to Haneda, and to avoid competition on the same route, they may outwit Vistara and “convince” Vistara to go with Narita on the grounds that this would offer “choice” of airports to travellers using their code share flights from Delhi to Tokyo. Will Vistara fall for this? We will know in 24 hours once Vistara makes its big announcement tomorrow.

edealinfo wrote:

#1 available for lease Or outright purchase from numerous parties just as in any market. There is a price for all slots. As an example, Recently, South AFrican Airways put its LHR slots on the market

You forgot the preferred source, AI going out of business and Mantri giving it away for free.

SATexan wrote:

AA announces timings for SEA-BLR

From SEA: Flight AA200 Departure: 17:55 Arrival in BLR: 23:45+1
From BLR: Flight AA201 Departure: 03:05 Arrival in SEA: 06:00

Do you have a source for this? Neither the American Airlines website nor my preferred fare engine, Kayak, shows the flight as of 16:25 GMT.

airboss787 wrote:

I don't know why you feel Gatwick is "bad" or a "huge disappointment". Vistara is a small and loss making airline. Regardless of SQ or Tata, they cannot afford a London slot unless it is free. Why would you think that starting flights from Gatwick, which is not that bad, is a huge disappointment? They can always move over to Heathrow later or just add flights there at a later date. The only disappointment will be if they can't make money on their 787s. That's the bad outcome. It really doesn't matter if it is Heathrow or Gatwick or Haneda or Narita, as long as they are making money on the route, which they would research enough before commencing service.

Very well put indeed! In fact I would go so far as to argue that NRT wouldn't be such a bad idea for Vistara:

1. JAL is moving all it's India flights to HND so if UK starts NRT, you have both airports covered.
2. The codeshare as it stands today only covers domestic Japanese and Indian stations. JL can sell tickets for ex-DEL within India on UK via HND and UK can sell tickets for ex-NRT/HND within Japan via DEL
3. Vistara only serves DEL and BOM from BLR so essentially from BLR it is a waste of a codeshare for JL and DEL is the only station from which this partnership can get optimum bang for the buck.
4. Even if the codeshare does at some point expand to beyond Japan, UK is still covered by its code share partner from HND.

edealinfo wrote:

The only thorn with Haneda is that service is supposed to start by March 29

Do you have an actual published source that can corroborate this line that you have been parroting ad-nauseam?

edealinfo wrote:

The QR route to Nagpur succeeds for the following reasons:

1. QR is blocked from further expansion in India

Don't be ridiculous! Routes don't succeed because airlines are blocked from expansion, airlines being blocked from expansion is usually a sign of a route(s) succeeding.

edealinfo wrote:

Another poster said Indians couldn't care about Haneda or Narita because their focus is on costs. If so, why in the world would they want to travel to Tokyo/Japan which is the most expensive city in Asia. Their hotel stay and food would be far more expensive than the price of their ticket to Japan, for heaven's sake. People who fly to Japan have cash and they want the convenience of an airport close to the City

I am really getting tired of this stupid logic which assumes that having money has anything to do with wanting to pay for a ticket. I can literally introduce you to floor after floor and building after building of Indian diaspora in the Bay Area who earn well over the median income, drive expensive cars and yet choose to fly one extra stop and 8 extra hours to BOM because it saves $600 on their Y ticket.

edealinfo wrote:

airboss787 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

I don't know why you feel Gatwick is "bad" or a "huge disappointment".

Well, there is no way that Vistara is going to get LHR slots for free. And, in capitalism, there is a reason that LHR slots cost more money. It generates more revenue for the airline so much so that it offsets the costs, to justify the investment. So, as an example, even though it may cost a couple of millions to lease a slot each year, if you spread out the costs over an entire year, and over the costs of all the seats available for sale, that would mean an additional cost of say $35 roundtrip per ticket (or about $17 one way). [Assumption: $4 million annual lease cost, divided by 365 days, divided by 300 seats roundtrip). Would someone pay $35 more to fly out of LHR over Gatwick. Sure, once you factor, the value of one's time, that LHR is better and faster connected to central London, that LHR is closer to the Indian community, that LHR has gazillions of other connections to Europe, and the Americas, and that Vistara's partners - British Airways and United have a big presence at LHR thereby offering seamless connections. There is a reason LHR is a “platinum “ (my word) airport.

Think about it, $17 more each way more for slot lease costs for LHR, and guess how much more Vistara can get for a business or premium economy seat for flying the aircraft to LHR rather than Gatwick.

As for Haneda, its slot value is arguably more valuable than that of LHR but it can't be traded for value. And guess, what, for the first time in possibly 4 decades, Japan was kind enough to offer one route trip Haneda daytime slot to any Indian carrier, when the much of the rest of the world carriers, which would have been willing to pay an arm and a leg were denied.

Another poster said Indians couldn't care about Haneda or Narita because their focus is on costs. If so, why in the world would they want to travel to Tokyo/Japan which is the most expensive city in Asia. Their hotel stay and food would be far more expensive than the price of their ticket to Japan, for heaven's sake. People who fly to Japan have cash and they want the convenience of an airport close to the City. And heck, why not? It is offered to India for free by the Japanese. The only idiots here would be Vistara for forgoing a once in a 100 year (40 years past + 60 years into the future) opportunity for free daytime "titanium" Haneda slots.

I don't know why you're teaching me economics! I know how these slots work and I am well aware of the economics of these slots. But that wasn't my point at all.

I was wondering why you thought LGW was a huge disappointment. I know how LHR is is a gold mine and all. But what is it a goldmine for? Maybe connections to North and South America at best. But on what airline? They have no partner covering that part of the world. So as of today, they have no added bonus of flying to LHR that they won't get from flying to LGW. So again, why is it a huge disappointment other than optics? LHR is not worth it just for prestige unless you can make full use of it. And Vistara cannot do that as things stand right now.

[threeid][/threeid]

dtw2hyd wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

#1 available for lease Or outright purchase from numerous parties just as in any market. There is a price for all slots. As an example, Recently, South AFrican Airways put its LHR slots on the market

You forgot the preferred source, AI going out of business and Mantri giving it away for free.

good point except that for this bounty, a successful bidder for Air India also has to pick up the trash, and the trash may far exceed the bounty.

As far as I have issues with the Dear Leader, on economic issues, I think he is far ahead, in a positive way, that the other political parties. Way ahead. I like to give credit where it is due.

All opportunists will have an equal chance to bid on the heap that is Air India. You never know what you will get. It might end up in a windfall for the successful bidder or drag them down. With Subramanium Swanmee breathing down their necks, I’d bet on the latter. In fact I hope the Tatas stay away. The Adanais , Hindujas and other business-political players have a better chance of beating Air India into shape than the Tatas ever could.and, if they do, good for them.

airboss787 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

airboss787 wrote:

Well, there is no way that Vistara is going to get LHR slots for free. And, in capitalism, there is a reason that LHR slots cost more money. It generates more revenue for the airline so much so that it offsets the costs, to justify the investment. So, as an example, even though it may cost a couple of millions to lease a slot each year, if you spread out the costs over an entire year, and over the costs of all the seats available for sale, that would mean an additional cost of say $35 roundtrip per ticket (or about $17 one way). [Assumption: $4 million annual lease cost, divided by 365 days, divided by 300 seats roundtrip). Would someone pay $35 more to fly out of LHR over Gatwick. Sure, once you factor, the value of one's time, that LHR is better and faster connected to central London, that LHR is closer to the Indian community, that LHR has gazillions of other connections to Europe, and the Americas, and that Vistara's partners - British Airways and United have a big presence at LHR thereby offering seamless connections. There is a reason LHR is a “platinum “ (my word) airport.

Think about it, $17 more each way more for slot lease costs for LHR, and guess how much more Vistara can get for a business or premium economy seat for flying the aircraft to LHR rather than Gatwick.

As for Haneda, its slot value is arguably more valuable than that of LHR but it can't be traded for value. And guess, what, for the first time in possibly 4 decades, Japan was kind enough to offer one route trip Haneda daytime slot to any Indian carrier, when the much of the rest of the world carriers, which would have been willing to pay an arm and a leg were denied.

Another poster said Indians couldn't care about Haneda or Narita because their focus is on costs. If so, why in the world would they want to travel to Tokyo/Japan which is the most expensive city in Asia. Their hotel stay and food would be far more expensive than the price of their ticket to Japan, for heaven's sake. People who fly to Japan have cash and they want the convenience of an airport close to the City. And heck, why not? It is offered to India for free by the Japanese. The only idiots here would be Vistara for forgoing a once in a 100 year (40 years past + 60 years into the future) opportunity for free daytime "titanium" Haneda slots.

I don't know why you're teaching me economics! I know how these slots work and I am well aware of the economics of these slots. But that wasn't my point at all.

I was wondering why you thought LGW was a huge disappointment. I know how LHR is is a gold mine and all. But what is it a goldmine for? Maybe connections to North and South America at best. But on what airline? They have no partner covering that part of the world. So as of today, they have no added bonus of flying to LHR that they won't get from flying to LGW. So again, why is it a huge disappointment other than optics? LHR is not worth it just for prestige unless you can make full use of it. And Vistara cannot do that as things stand right now.

Vistara’s partners are British Airways and United which have a large presence at LHR. and, British Airways is already offering two way codeshares which means that they have already agreed to take the relationship a bit further. How much further, we will know in 24 hours.

edealinfo wrote:

airboss787 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Well, there is no way that Vistara is going to get LHR slots for free. And, in capitalism, there is a reason that LHR slots cost more money. It generates more revenue for the airline so much so that it offsets the costs, to justify the investment. So, as an example, even though it may cost a couple of millions to lease a slot each year, if you spread out the costs over an entire year, and over the costs of all the seats available for sale, that would mean an additional cost of say $35 roundtrip per ticket (or about $17 one way). [Assumption: $4 million annual lease cost, divided by 365 days, divided by 300 seats roundtrip). Would someone pay $35 more to fly out of LHR over Gatwick. Sure, once you factor, the value of one's time, that LHR is better and faster connected to central London, that LHR is closer to the Indian community, that LHR has gazillions of other connections to Europe, and the Americas, and that Vistara's partners - British Airways and United have a big presence at LHR thereby offering seamless connections. There is a reason LHR is a “platinum “ (my word) airport.

Think about it, $17 more each way more for slot lease costs for LHR, and guess how much more Vistara can get for a business or premium economy seat for flying the aircraft to LHR rather than Gatwick.

As for Haneda, its slot value is arguably more valuable than that of LHR but it can't be traded for value. And guess, what, for the first time in possibly 4 decades, Japan was kind enough to offer one route trip Haneda daytime slot to any Indian carrier, when the much of the rest of the world carriers, which would have been willing to pay an arm and a leg were denied.

Another poster said Indians couldn't care about Haneda or Narita because their focus is on costs. If so, why in the world would they want to travel to Tokyo/Japan which is the most expensive city in Asia. Their hotel stay and food would be far more expensive than the price of their ticket to Japan, for heaven's sake. People who fly to Japan have cash and they want the convenience of an airport close to the City. And heck, why not? It is offered to India for free by the Japanese. The only idiots here would be Vistara for forgoing a once in a 100 year (40 years past + 60 years into the future) opportunity for free daytime "titanium" Haneda slots.

I don't know why you're teaching me economics! I know how these slots work and I am well aware of the economics of these slots. But that wasn't my point at all.

I was wondering why you thought LGW was a huge disappointment. I know how LHR is is a gold mine and all. But what is it a goldmine for? Maybe connections to North and South America at best. But on what airline? They have no partner covering that part of the world. So as of today, they have no added bonus of flying to LHR that they won't get from flying to LGW. So again, why is it a huge disappointment other than optics? LHR is not worth it just for prestige unless you can make full use of it. And Vistara cannot do that as things stand right now.

Vistara’s partners are British Airways and United which have a large presence at LHR. and, British Airways is already offering two way codeshares which means that they have already agreed to take the relationship a bit further. How much further, we will know in 24 hours.

But none of those codeshares go beyond LHR, as of today. So unless they enhance that, there's very little advantage to being at LHR.

edealinfo wrote:

...With Subramanium Swanmee breathing down their necks..

I think he already ruined Tata's chance. Any Tata-owned airline will have a tough time getting the US Department of Treasury clearance to start or continue US ops. Of course, GoI may pull out all the stops. Do some offline research, google "Delhi HC orders ED pgurus". On the surface Swamy made it look like an Air Asia issue, so PMO doesn't interfere, but he was setting the stage to screw the crown jewel of aviation.