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dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:08 pm

VTORD wrote:
But I am not sure why you would consider UK as "struggling to put 1 WB in to service" by comparing to NZ in 2014. What global pandemic was threatening to halt NZ's Dreamliner ambitions in 2014? Ebola? That was no where in scale to the COVID-19 problem and the epicenter of that problem was about as far as you could get from the bulk of NZ's network. Flash forward to now and you have established (and by all means professionally run) behemoths like QF defering the starts of announced routes, UK's own parent has cut back on services b/w India and SIN, Entire cities and metropolitan areas are being quarantined at this time and India just banned people from 4 more countries from traveling to India 2 of whom are home to large hubs of airlines with heavy presence in the Indian LH market! Why would any sensible airline not hold back on starting LH ops?


Was a similar benefit of the doubt accorded to AI

When AI wanted 10x343s it got 50x777/787s
2008 GFC happened
Oil reached $100/BBL
ME3 were brutal
Lemons with beta software and prematurely breaking parts were handed over by Boeing
Wingbox needs repair after delivery.
GEnXs needed PIP after PIP

No, the following were the standard statements.
AOGs do not make money.
Would AI take the next 787 or not? Even after GEnX had uncontained engine failure during a test flight.
Why can't AI run by professional management
Why AI cannibalizing brand new planes.

I am asking some questions because UK supposed to takeover AI and run professionally if ghar vapsi happens and AI goes back to the crown jewel of Indian aviation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:09 pm

VTCIE wrote:
VTORD, @vadodara, @hohd, @fortunerunner and others: do you have any insights or possible reasons why nobody has relaunched flights between BOM and PNQ after 9W (the sole operator) collapsed? The demand is high enough to fill three or four A320s a day.


Demand between BOM-PNQ is very high however so do the options for travel between the two cities, there are hundreds of buses that ply between the two cities from State transport company as well as various private operators. There are thousands of cabs and private cars which ply between the two cities and these are connected by India's very first expressway though road traffic has increased a lot and road has deteriorated. In addition to it you can add several dedicated trains to the mix and all these options take at most 3-4 hours unless there is some huge impediment such as accident etc. resulting in road block or landslide shutting down train service.

There is no practical reason for anyone to fly between the two cities since when you add all the overhead of getting to the airport, security clearance and then waiting for flights etc. only to take 20 min long flight is non starter.

VTCIE wrote:
Granted, other than the sole service to DXB operated by SG and IX, a city as major as PNQ will remain unconnected to any and all international destinations, while the CNNs and CCJs of the country leap upon every Middle Eastern route they can find (assuming that there is no coronavirus, as the Middle East is now under such a lockdown that CNN may soon be reduced to a PNQ-like state). Also, PNQ will never be graced by an A330, 777 or 787, which are regular occurrences at—if not CCJ—COK or, up north, LKO for that matter.


PNQ is never going to get non stop to North America or for that matter many European gateways, no one is comparing it to BLR/HYD in terms of importance or traffic, if someone does that they are not worth to get into a discussion with as its not rational.

However, it does not mean it can not sustain 330 to FRA few times a week as LH on several occasions has confirmed that they would have operated that type of metal if only airport was capable of it. For that matter, I can assure you if PNQ was capable and EK was given a chance to operate there and was not constrained by bilateral then they would operate there too. On several occasions in the past SIngapore Air has shown interest in starting flight to PNQ as well but due to lack of infra and suitable slots/bilateral they havent been able to.

Many IT companies have operations in Pune and two such companies who I have previously worked for routinely fly their folks via DEL to our offices in SF Bay area when they are brought onsite. Granted this is an anecdotal evidence and I might be biased since PNQ is my hometown so it draws my attention. However, I have several friends/family members from Pune who routinely take International flights multiple times a year out of BOM or fly via DEL as PNQ does not have the options. Now you can extrapolate this to number of folks employed in IT sector in the city and travel to client locations on routine basis or executives from North America/Europe visiting their sister branches in Pune, number of door to door cabs operating from BOM to PNQ etc. and easily you can figure out that International demand exists though its segregated and not to a particular city.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:33 pm

hohd wrote:
Even if PNQ gets the new airport and is rumored to be about 50 km from the city, the international traffic will not jump, in fact may become worse as many will find it even more convenient to just go to BOM. And let us face it, PNQ does not have the same traffic as many smaller South Indian cities (to Middle East (ex.DXB) and SE Asia) and this clear when you see Indigo (or Spice jet to some extent) jumping all over to start new services from all other cities to Middle east, but has not yet started anything from PNQ. They can get the slots if they want to, since it is for international and for international late night flights are anyway convenient.

Also Pune is as big now because it is fairly close to BOM, as many live/work in Pune since it is cheaper and also many industries are located as they can access the huge BOM market. If Pune was further than BOM (similar to Solapur distance), then I doubt Pune will become as big as it is now.


Pune is not listed as a port of call for many of the International destinations/bi-laterals and operating services there is restricted due to it. Its a fact that Flydubai wanted to operate to PNQ as one of their first destinations in India, Air Force put a block on it for whatever reason so its not true that any airline can start service at Pune. It is simply not that straight forward, they have to first secure the slot but also get NOC from Air Force to start operating there. These issues will dissipate if and when new airport gets constructed and if there are flights/facilities there then demand will organically grow as well.

Next part of this post is now deviating from aviation but I think its relevant to shed some light to what makes Pune grow and correct assumptions that its growing as a far distant suburb of BOM, thats just laughable.

I'm not sure if @hohd is from the area to understand the nuances when it comes to Pune/BOM and its relationship with regards to why Pune grew to the size it is today and driving forces behind it. This has nothing to do with real estate market in BOM or costs associated with it, it might have been true in earlier days when Tata Motors (Telco), Bajaj, Force (Bajaj) Motors (Firodia Industries) etc. opened assembly lines there back in 60s/70s. However the exponential growth of last couple of decades is because its been chosen as a destination of choice by many multinational orgs for their backoffice/IT Development centers etc. The reason for it is not because its closer to BOM but because of availability of the talent pool. Pune has some of most renounced education institutions in India (COEP/PICT/Symbiosis/VIT/VIIT/MIT etc etc.) and they churn out thousands of graduates every year with in demand skills. This is what drove the IT Boom and then add Infotech parks/special economic zones etc. and thats what made Pune grow to the size it is today.
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Was a similar benefit of the doubt accorded to AI

When AI wanted 10x343s it got 50x777/787s
2008 GFC happened
Oil reached $100/BBL
ME3 were brutal
Lemons with beta software and prematurely breaking parts were handed over by Boeing
Wingbox needs repair after delivery.
GEnXs needed PIP after PIP

All fair points but...

dtw2hyd wrote:
No, the following were the standard statements.
AOGs do not make money.

IIRC the GFC did not happen until 18 or so months after 777 deliveries began (2006) for AI and the 787s didn't happen until 2011. So they could have deferred the deliveries, cancelled orders etc., and they did not. You have presented the case that it was MoCA (PP) who shoved the aircraft down AI's throat. True and very unlucky for AI but it's not like they were doyens of airline professionalism prior to that. AI has been in a steady rot since about 1985 but let's not go down that rabbit hole. Even as late as the 9W crisis Ashwani Lohani the so called turnaround magician was tweeting about taking on Jet's 77Ws while he had 2 77Ws AOG in NAG for almost a year! There has to be a difference in evaluating that v evaluating an airline whose aircraft is barely a week old. As I said before I have no particular regard for UK - they are just an airline AFA I am concerned.

dtw2hyd wrote:
Why can't AI run by professional management
Why AI cannibalizing brand new planes.

I don't think there is anyone on this forum who disputes the fact that GoI should have zilch to do with AI. And are you denying that AI cannibalizes a/c or are you suggesting they are not the only ones?


dtw2hyd wrote:
I am asking some questions because UK supposed to takeover AI and run professionally if ghar vapsi happens and AI goes back to the crown jewel of Indian aviation.

Meh....The way they have strung the media along over their long haul operations, I can see this will be up there with the 3-month news cycle for Indigo's interest in "WB for international ops"
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:40 pm

VTCIE wrote:
VTORD, @vadodara, @hohd, @fortunerunner and others: do you have any insights or possible reasons why nobody has relaunched flights between BOM and PNQ after 9W (the sole operator) collapsed? The demand is high enough to fill three or four A320s a day.
[/quote]

fortunerunnner wrote:
Demand between BOM-PNQ is very high however so do the options for travel between the two cities, there are hundreds of buses that ply between the two cities from State transport company as well as various private operators. There are thousands of cabs and private cars which ply between the two cities and these are connected by India's very first expressway though road traffic has increased a lot and road has deteriorated. In addition to it you can add several dedicated trains to the mix and all these options take at most 3-4 hours unless there is some huge impediment such as accident etc. resulting in road block or landslide shutting down train service.

There is no practical reason for anyone to fly between the two cities since when you add all the overhead of getting to the airport, security clearance and then waiting for flights etc. only to take 20 min long flight is non starter.


I would echo these sentiments.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2707
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:14 pm

anshabhi wrote:
International travel from to & from India literally completely scuttled by the govt.

Which airline will close this time? SG or G8?

I find it difficult to even imagine how deserted international terminals at Indian airports are going to be for next few days (or months)

I give full good credit to the Dear Leader. He made a tough political decision that will greatly hurt the INdian tourism economy but that’s to protect the long term.

Hats off to him for his bold and logical move in dealing with a pandemic. If corona spreads in a densely populated country like India, it would be worse than what happened with China.

So, be a big grateful to the Dear Leader.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:40 pm

VTORD wrote:
IIRC the GFC did not happen until 18 or so months after 777 deliveries began (2006) for AI and the 787s didn't happen until 2011. So they could have deferred the deliveries, cancelled orders etc., and they did not. You have presented the case that it was MoCA (PP) who shoved the aircraft down AI's throat. True and very unlucky for AI but it's not like they were doyens of airline professionalism prior to that. AI has been in a steady rot since about 1985 but let's not go down that rabbit hole. Even as late as the 9W crisis Ashwani Lohani the so called turnaround magician was tweeting about taking on Jet's 77Ws while he had 2 77Ws AOG in NAG for almost a year! There has to be a difference in evaluating that v evaluating an airline whose aircraft is barely a week old. As I said before I have no particular regard for UK - they are just an airline AFA I am concerned.

I don't think there is anyone on this forum who disputes the fact that GoI should have zilch to do with AI. And are you denying that AI cannibalizes a/c or are you suggesting they are not the only ones?


So basically you are claiming UK management is same as AI management? That is a low bar to compare a 2014 greenfield airline with a 1932 airline with debt, legacy costs and unions.

If there is an AOG, and there is a plane that needs a part that is ready to be despatched, the part will be removed from an AOG. SOP throughout the world. Why is it difficult to comprehend for Indian av pundits.

One should be asking why parts were failing on brand new planes. Instead, everyone joined the Boeing bandwagon blaming the customer. Rumor has it EK is taking parts from AOG A380s, what is it, better asset management.
All posts are just opinions.
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:07 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

So basically you are claiming UK management is same as AI management? That is a low bar to compare a 2014 greenfield airline with a 1932 airline with debt, legacy costs and unions.

What are you on about? Do you just randomly pick s*** out of the air? :irked: Where do I imply anything of the sort? :irked:

dtw2hyd wrote:
If there is an AOG, and there is a plane that needs a part that is ready to be despatched, the part will be removed from an AOG. SOP throughout the world. Why is it difficult to comprehend for Indian av pundits.

IF there is an AOG but how come there is always an AOG ready to supply a part?

dtw2hyd wrote:
One should be asking why parts were failing on brand new planes. Instead, everyone joined the Boeing bandwagon blaming the customer. Rumor has it EK is taking parts from AOG A380s, what is it, better asset management.

Too bad EK ran out of destinations to send fully loaded double decker super jumbos. Gotta use those surplus A380s (and extra airport) somewhere. It's not like they are flying off the shelf in the used plane market. Hardly the optimal example of "SOP".... :shakehead:
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:28 am

VTORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

So basically you are claiming UK management is same as AI management? That is a low bar to compare a 2014 greenfield airline with a 1932 airline with debt, legacy costs and unions.

What are you on about? Do you just randomly pick s*** out of the air? :irked: Where do I imply anything of the sort? :irked:

dtw2hyd wrote:
If there is an AOG, and there is a plane that needs a part that is ready to be despatched, the part will be removed from an AOG. SOP throughout the world. Why is it difficult to comprehend for Indian av pundits.

IF there is an AOG but how come there is always an AOG ready to supply a part?

dtw2hyd wrote:
One should be asking why parts were failing on brand new planes. Instead, everyone joined the Boeing bandwagon blaming the customer. Rumor has it EK is taking parts from AOG A380s, what is it, better asset management.

Too bad EK ran out of destinations to send fully loaded double decker super jumbos. Gotta use those surplus A380s (and extra airport) somewhere. It's not like they are flying off the shelf in the used plane market. Hardly the optimal example of "SOP".... :shakehead:


Different arguments for AI AOGs and EK AOGs, bit rich isn't it. No one asked STC to buy 100+ A380s, what is his excuse.

ANI had wingbox issue, is that AI's fault, One after another early GEnX engines needed unscheduled PIPs, is that AI's fault?

TSD will be singing Corona Pyar Hai for a while, but the issues AI went thru with 788s, no one should face.
All posts are just opinions.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:38 am

trinidadeG wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Sure but precisely my point. Why cap EK flights? Publish a negative list of airports and open the rest up.


You know, this is all based on an assumption that IF these caps are removed by the government, then Emirates (and other hallowed foreign carriers) will start flying to ALL eligible Indian airports.
.


Did you understand my import before getting into the typical pompous Mumbikar tirade?

If you think BOM and it’s 25mm inhabitants deserve the world, why can’t an airline seem to run profitable routes out of the city?

You guys have stats to make a point?
 
vadodara
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:41 am

acavpics wrote:
[
But then, part of the reason that EK (And other gulf carriers) has so much Indian connecting traffic to India from Americas and Europe is because it flies to a lot of these smaller cities that were not previously accessible via one stop options. Big cities like BLR, BOM, DEL were always accessible via European carriers. The same cannot be said about cities like Kochi, Trivandrum, Kozhikode etc. Not to mention, most Indian expats in the UAE are Malayalis.


Thank you! It seems like the Mumbaikar’s still haven’t gotten over the fact that the sakharam’s were happily shaking every Mallu who was returning home after a stint to the gulf.
 
avier
Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:05 am

vadodara wrote:
If you think BOM and it’s 25mm inhabitants deserve the world, why can’t an airline seem to run profitable routes out of the city?

You guys have stats to make a point?

If they weren't so profitable to operate out of, what made Indian airlines risk adding new fleet types and tons of a/c in a short span just to add flights out of BOM last April? Also, foreign airlines filled up too. Those actions speak volumes of the importance of BOM, and India's most profitable airline also voices the importance the city in its shareholder meetings. It ranks the hub in terms of profitability more so above other cities/hubs.

And you ask for stats, but can you provide any for your baseless statements that you make of the traffic composition at BOM? If Surat and Baroda were indeed the major contributors, it's not rocket science that airlines could have added more flights to those cities directly instead of slot constrained BOM. Also Nasik (Ozar) is a great option to feed the pax in that region, as per your fanatsy traffic data of Baroda, Surat and around being the major contributors to western hub.

I know small townies have the ultimate fantasy of EK A380 landing at their local airstrip, but calm down, that ain't happening. Airlines go where the real market is, and in India it is BOM/DEL/BLR ( & MAA to some extent).
 
User avatar
AirIndia
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 2:43 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:44 am

vadodara wrote:
Thank you! It seems like the Mumbaikar’s still haven’t gotten over the fact that the sakharam’s were happily shaking every Mallu who was returning home after a stint to the gulf.

Ha Ha Ha.... cant unsee the visualization of that....
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:09 am

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
If you think BOM and it’s 25mm inhabitants deserve the world, why can’t an airline seem to run profitable routes out of the city?

You guys have stats to make a point?

If they weren't so profitable to operate out of, what made Indian airlines risk adding new fleet types and tons of a/c in a short span just to add flights out of BOM last April? Also, foreign airlines filled up too. Those actions speak volumes of the importance of BOM, and India's most profitable airline also voices the importance the city in its shareholder meetings. It ranks the hub in terms of profitability more so above other cities/hubs.

And you ask for stats, but can you provide any for your baseless statements that you make of the traffic composition at BOM? If Surat and Baroda were indeed the major contributors, it's not rocket science that airlines could have added more flights to those cities directly instead of slot constrained BOM. Also Nasik (Ozar) is a great option to feed the pax in that region, as per your fanatsy traffic data of Baroda, Surat and around being the major contributors to western hub.

I know small townies have the ultimate fantasy of EK A380 landing at their local airstrip, but calm down, that ain't happening. Airlines go where the real market is, and in India it is BOM/DEL/BLR ( & MAA to some extent).


I guess A380 would anyways be sent to the biggest Cities with Biggest demands and Im sure its not flying to BLR or MAA and even to DEL at the moment cause its hard to fill it up and prolly thats the reason many airlines are now getting rid of that elephant.

A lot of factors contribute to an Intl widebody coming to a city and as you rightly said its the DEMAND and PROFITS...if airline sees huge demand and profits then they will wanna send in big planes to fill more and more seats to get more and more profits.For Surat and Baroda that aint happening untill they get the proper infrastructer to handle it and have huge demand for it as well.

BDQ is just around 90 Somethin KMs from AMD so for EK or others to send there planes to BDQ is just not profitable and same for STV which not only lack demand but also proper tarmac size to accomodate a wodebody like 330s let alone a 777 or 747s for that matter.

To give you an example Thai airways flies their 320s to GAY,VNS and LKO all three cities close to each other in the same region because they get good traffic from all three and SV has been sending its 333s to LKO since 2012 which began as a 4 days a week to now daily service and during Hajj we get Three A330s daily with one being the scheduled RIyadh,Jeddah flight and other two Hajj ones and to accomodate such three big planes you need a huge tarmac and big population which LKO has and thats what INTL airlines look for before commencing ops to any city for that matter..So when a city has a demand and Infrastructure to accomodate the widebodies then airlines will send in their apt product to take advantage of the offer.
 
avier
Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:52 am

FligtReporter wrote:
BDQ is just around 90 Somethin KMs from AMD


True. I don't understand why someone here on this forum still feels Baroda residents would prefer to go +400 Km away to catch a flight, when there is a much nearer int'l airport with decent flight connectivity.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:05 pm

avier wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
BDQ is just around 90 Somethin KMs from AMD


True. I don't understand why someone here on this forum still feels Baroda residents would prefer to go +400 Km away to catch a flight, when there is a much nearer int'l airport with decent flight connectivity.


EXACTLY...whoever that someone is he or she is definitely close to insane lolz. Most of the UP residents and even from Bihar take direct flights from LKO to Saudi Arabia or Mid east as its closer to Bihar and they dont have to travel all the way to Delhi or All the way from Delhi to Their native villages or towns and thats why A333s are packed with people from all over UP and Bihar which is served by LKO which somewhere also lessens the burden at DEL.

So a Gujrati person at BDQ or SVT would rather travel to AMD and fly to Singapore,London,Dubai,Oman,Qatar than going all the way to BOM and Im not talking this without facts because I know people who work at LKO and Im told that mostly flyers to Mid East are from Bihar,East UP and obviously surounding areas of LKO like KNU,IXD but yeah those in West UP or AGR prefer DEL as their main base of INTL flights because its closer to DEL.

So A person from SVT and BDQ are most likely to catch a flight to Dubai from AMD than BOM and what also makes a difference is the congestion usually pax dont prefer BOM or DEL as they are too crowded and busy especially the naive innoquous labour folks and prefer their local native Airports.
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Different arguments for AI AOGs and EK AOGs, bit rich isn't it. No one asked STC to buy 100+ A380s, what is his excuse.

Do you understand sarcasm? Read my post again. Anyone w/ iota of comprehension skills would have understood esp., reading the last sentence that it wasn't a defense of STC! I mean seriously!! :shakehead:

dtw2hyd wrote:
ANI had wingbox issue, is that AI's fault, One after another early GEnX engines needed unscheduled PIPs, is that AI's fault?

:tired: Again, I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you but this going to be my last attempt: I agree with this statement but....
You brought up the Air New Zealand point in the debate >> I provided my view of how market conditions for NZ in 2014 were very different from UK's current environment.
Then you changed the direction of the conversation by introducing sundry grievances about AI's mistreatment on this forum >> Again I responded to those
Then you changed direction again and somehow introduced EK's surplus A380s only to quote me back exactly the point I made
In the immortal words of Baburao Ganpatrao Apte, tum pehle decide karo tumhara samasya kya hai: Vistara, Air India ke Emirates?


dtw2hyd wrote:
TSD will be singing Corona Pyar Hai for a while, but the issues AI went thru with 788s, no one should face.

For the Nth time, for 99% of the participants of this thread VT-TSD's current status was such a non-issue. And yet from NZ to VT-ANI to EK & STC, here we are: Jaate the Japan pahunch gaye Chin....No pun intended :crazy:
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:35 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
avier wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
BDQ is just around 90 Somethin KMs from AMD


True. I don't understand why someone here on this forum still feels Baroda residents would prefer to go +400 Km away to catch a flight, when there is a much nearer int'l airport with decent flight connectivity.


EXACTLY...whoever that someone is he or she is definitely close to insane lolz. Most of the UP residents and even from Bihar take direct flights from LKO to Saudi Arabia or Mid east as its closer to Bihar and they dont have to travel all the way to Delhi or All the way from Delhi to Their native villages or towns and thats why A333s are packed with people from all over UP and Bihar which is served by LKO which somewhere also lessens the burden at DEL.

So a Gujrati person at BDQ or SVT would rather travel to AMD and fly to Singapore,London,Dubai,Oman,Qatar than going all the way to BOM and Im not talking this without facts because I know people who work at LKO and Im told that mostly flyers to Mid East are from Bihar,East UP and obviously surounding areas of LKO like KNU,IXD but yeah those in West UP or AGR prefer DEL as their main base of INTL flights because its closer to DEL.

So A person from SVT and BDQ are most likely to catch a flight to Dubai from AMD than BOM and what also makes a difference is the congestion usually pax dont prefer BOM or DEL as they are too crowded and busy especially the naive innoquous labour folks and prefer their local native Airports.


Since I (sort of) started this side bar debate with an innocuous joke about STV and WWWAS and I am from BDQ let me chime in:
For BDQ folks, AMD is very convenient. Sometimes in the 9W days I would prefer BOM based on the fact that I am alliance captive so BOM was the best option for me apart from the fact that I am married to a Mumbai gal and have tons of family there. But STV is just far enough from both AMD (3 hours by train) and BOM (4 hours by train) to add an extra bit on inconvenience in traveling to either airport over land. So for STV connecting in BOM/DEL is more suitable v going to AMD.

I have no delusions about the potential of BDQ as an airport but I do have 2 grievances against airlines in this regard:
AI (then IC) exited BDQ-BOM sometime in 2005 time frame and to date has not returned on that route. Beats me why. Mind you 9W and 6E all added services after their exit. At it's peak 9W and 6E used to have 6 departures between them to BOM which is now down to 3 by 6E and barring AI 2xDEL 6E is the only airline there now. Maybe it is just my bias or maybe AMD is just too close but I some how find it hard to believe that neither AI nor SG see any value in adding services there.
 
hohd
Posts: 937
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:26 pm

I have lived in Pune for a brief period in the 90's but things have changed drastically now so cannot compare my brief stay there with situation now. However BOM does have the benefit of many transit passengers, but bulk of the passengers are from BOM and surroundings. And there are some from PNQ (and also Surat) as well. PNQ on its own can manage flights to DXB, and may be one other Middle East city and probably to FRA and may be at most SIN.

Also how is the new airport going to solve the problems, with the airport itself will be about 50 kms from the city and many who travel internationally would rather prefer to just go to BOM for their international flights. However for domestic travel, PNQ will benefit greatly with the new airport.

Bilaterals to Dubai can be increased to more cities served and amended with a cap on seats to BOM, DEL, BLR, MAA and HYD. This could force EK or FlyDubai to serve other cities, rather than the big 5 (I know COK has lots of demand to DXB, but has less connecting traffic). Will GOI do it ? May be because the Indian side also has nearly exhausted its bilaterals.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8414
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:41 pm

VTORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Different arguments for AI AOGs and EK AOGs, bit rich isn't it. No one asked STC to buy 100+ A380s, what is his excuse.

Do you understand sarcasm? Read my post again. Anyone w/ iota of comprehension skills would have understood esp., reading the last sentence that it wasn't a defense of STC! I mean seriously!! :shakehead:

dtw2hyd wrote:
ANI had wingbox issue, is that AI's fault, One after another early GEnX engines needed unscheduled PIPs, is that AI's fault?

:tired: Again, I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you but this going to be my last attempt: I agree with this statement but....
You brought up the Air New Zealand point in the debate >> I provided my view of how market conditions for NZ in 2014 were very different from UK's current environment.
Then you changed the direction of the conversation by introducing sundry grievances about AI's mistreatment on this forum >> Again I responded to those
Then you changed direction again and somehow introduced EK's surplus A380s only to quote me back exactly the point I made
In the immortal words of Baburao Ganpatrao Apte, tum pehle decide karo tumhara samasya kya hai: Vistara, Air India ke Emirates?


dtw2hyd wrote:
TSD will be singing Corona Pyar Hai for a while, but the issues AI went thru with 788s, no one should face.

For the Nth time, for 99% of the participants of this thread VT-TSD's current status was such a non-issue. And yet from NZ to VT-ANI to EK & STC, here we are: Jaate the Japan pahunch gaye Chin....No pun intended :crazy:


Rather than accepting the relatively reasonable assumption that Vistara took delivery at the worst possible time, different theories are being floated like proving flights, it is a huge plane...

ANZ is the 789 launch customer
AI someone else forced capacity it couldn't use
EK/STC someone who bought overcapacity on their own.

All are relevant references unless you want to blame AI in isolation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
VTORD
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:41 pm

Delta is adjusting BOM (among others) in light of COVID-19 evolving situation:
https://news.delta.com/trans-atlantic-f ... xRMWWjqMjI
 
subramak1
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:16 pm

vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Sure but precisely my point. Why cap EK flights? Publish a negative list of airports and open the rest up.

If I am not wrong 9W's PNQ-SIN flight started sometime around late 2018 and was shut down sometime just before the eventual total shut in early 2019 so not sure whether we should attribute that to poor loads. Also re: leakage to BOM, maybe that is precisely because PNQ is constrained that the leakage to BOM is higher than it would be. I find it hard to believe PNQ can't generate significant demand beyond DXB. If only we had a source that could put numbers against PNQ origin traffic ex-DEL/BOM.

We all know STV is 30% of BOM traffic so that just leaves the other 70%! :lol:


Only the Class F/J are BOM origin! Rest come from likes of STV, PNQ, BDQ etc!


Only 20% of traffic is bom and rest are transit, if I were to go by your logic. I dont know if it makes sense to you but it makes no sense to me.

KK
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:09 pm

hohd wrote:
PNQ on its own can manage flights to DXB, and may be one other Middle East city and probably to FRA and may be at most SIN.


Nopes PNQ can not handle NON STOP flights from EU because if LUFTHANSA or other cariers decide to fly to PNQ with a wide body then it will only be possible when PNQ gets a bigger Tarmac but yeah it could possibly get 738s or 320s of mid east cariers also Thai Smile and given the currnt domestic traffic of PNQ it will be more harder for any Intl cariers to begin their ops from PNQ especially those with WIDEBODIES.
 
fortunerunnner
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:56 pm

hohd wrote:
I have lived in Pune for a brief period in the 90's but things have changed drastically now so cannot compare my brief stay there with situation now. However BOM does have the benefit of many transit passengers, but bulk of the passengers are from BOM and surroundings. And there are some from PNQ (and also Surat) as well.


No doubt about that, BOM is a mega city and financial capital of India, no one can claim BOM traffic is due to folks travelling there from BDQ, STV, PNQ etc. Yes, not insignificant number of people travel to BOM to take international flight who would otherwise take it from their hometown if options were available, but its not so significant to claim BOM is sustained only based on that. Again, that is just laughable and person claiming such is not worth to get into a discussion with.

hohd wrote:
PNQ on its own can manage flights to DXB, and may be one other Middle East city and probably to FRA and may be at most SIN.

Also how is the new airport going to solve the problems, with the airport itself will be about 50 kms from the city and many who travel internationally would rather prefer to just go to BOM for their international flights. However for domestic travel, PNQ will benefit greatly with the new airport.


Key here is, what you have listed is true in today's world if airport existed which could handle widebodies and airlines have the necessary slots/rights required to do so. However, how can you be so confident that people would not use the new airport if gets constructed and demand will not grow. Going 50 KM on a decent ring road is way better than going 200KM on an expressway which routinely gets shut down due to accidents and gamble with Mumbai traffic to get to BOM. If people have an option at the new airport if and when it gets constructed and airlines add the flights, then 10 years from now some other destinations would become viable as well. Growth will come organically in such cases as you can see at BLR/HYD etc. Saying there is no need for a new airport because people wont travel 50 Km and saying BOM is sufficient to provide for a growing city is preposterous.
 
fortunerunnner
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:08 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
hohd wrote:
PNQ on its own can manage flights to DXB, and may be one other Middle East city and probably to FRA and may be at most SIN.


Nopes PNQ can not handle NON STOP flights from EU because if LUFTHANSA or other cariers decide to fly to PNQ with a wide body then it will only be possible when PNQ gets a bigger Tarmac but yeah it could possibly get 738s or 320s of mid east cariers also Thai Smile and given the currnt domestic traffic of PNQ it will be more harder for any Intl cariers to begin their ops from PNQ especially those with WIDEBODIES.


Exactly the reason why MH government should get off their behinds (would have used some other terminology but want to keep it civil :mad: ) and start long delayed land acquisition and move on with the project. If no new international destinations are added in the short term, new airport is still required for Pune as even domestic traffic is held hostage by Air Force and every single day there is 3-4 hour blackout of traffic during prime hours due to Air Force sorties which they need to run. It will greatly benefit the city, surrounding region and spur organic growth by making city even more attractive to FDI.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:53 am

hohd wrote:
Bilaterals to Dubai can be increased to more cities served and amended with a cap on seats to BOM, DEL, BLR, MAA and HYD. This could force EK or FlyDubai to serve other cities, rather than the big 5 (I know COK has lots of demand to DXB, but has less connecting traffic). Will GOI do it ? May be because the Indian side also has nearly exhausted its bilaterals.


How does India benefit from an increase in bilaterals is there aren't enough commercially viable slots left at DXB for iIndian carriers to fly into?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:55 am

Jet gets another extension of life as lenders demand another 90 day extension even with no bidder. Go figure!

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... n/1896541/
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:13 am

fortunerunnner wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
hohd wrote:
PNQ on its own can manage flights to DXB, and may be one other Middle East city and probably to FRA and may be at most SIN.


Nopes PNQ can not handle NON STOP flights from EU because if LUFTHANSA or other cariers decide to fly to PNQ with a wide body then it will only be possible when PNQ gets a bigger Tarmac but yeah it could possibly get 738s or 320s of mid east cariers also Thai Smile and given the currnt domestic traffic of PNQ it will be more harder for any Intl cariers to begin their ops from PNQ especially those with WIDEBODIES.


Exactly the reason why MH government should get off their behinds (would have used some other terminology but want to keep it civil :mad: ) and start long delayed land acquisition and move on with the project. If no new international destinations are added in the short term, new airport is still required for Pune as even domestic traffic is held hostage by Air Force and every single day there is 3-4 hour blackout of traffic during prime hours due to Air Force sorties which they need to run. It will greatly benefit the city, surrounding region and spur organic growth by making city even more attractive to FDI.


True...Its a shame that Cities like JAI,LKO,COK which handle Wide bodies regularly and have daily INTL flights to SEA and ME destinations look more of a METRO however a City like PNQ which is a metro on paper has a disgrace of an Airport which does not even have a proper CIVIL airport.

Im a regular visitor to PNQ and honestly Two things which PNQ doesnt have are
1. CIVIL INTL AIRPORT
2. METRO CONNECTIVITY

My Folks at PNQ tell me that the metro that is even under construction has no direct connectvity to the airport like here we have in LKO where the Metro Airport Station is directly connected to the Terminal.They say the problem can only be solved if either the MAH GOV quickens its works of the new Airport or the Air Force by some devine intervention gives up the present airport to the AAI and then they refurbish it with a new bigger terminal and bigger tarmac and possibly raising more chances of connecting the Metro directly to the Airport which I think wont be happening anytime soon.

I would reiterate that the geographic proximity of PNQ to BOM does play a part in PNQ may never being successful in getting INTL Flights as the distance of PNQ to BOM is very less and I highly doubt any Major INTL Operator would like to operate their 788s or A333s to PNQ unless obviously they see huge demand from and around PNQ !
 
ameya
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:42 am

In current times, what can airlines do to stay afloat ?

Five things airlines could do in current times
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/coronavirus-concerns-5-things-that-airlines-must-do-to-stay-aloft-5029081.html

The last 48 hours have not been good for the airline industry because of the outbreak of Coronavirus. Industry lobby IATA’s statement to not avoid travel was swept away within hours by World Health Organization (WHO) declaring Coronavirus a pandemic, followed by stringent bans by India against the entry of foreigners. This was followed by president Trump suspending travel from 26 European countries to the United States and Kuwait closing its airport for all commercial movements.

What about India’s airlines? They first published information on how it is still safe to keep flying. IndiGo then forecast a material impact on results because it saw a drop of up to 20 percent in bookings, attributed to Coronavirus.
 
killswitch13
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:30 pm

Air India has decided to cancel flights to Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Israel, South Korea and Sri Lanka till April 30, an airline official said on Friday, 13 March, amid mounting concerns over coronavirus epidemic.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:58 pm

avier wrote:
Bengaluru's Japan dream of getting a direct flight soon may be stalled due to covid19. JAL is to commence this new flight this month end.

Chennai on the other hand already fulfilled that dream, when ANA started service last Oct on NRT-MAA.

https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/ ... 502225.cms

Confirmed. JAL has delayed launch of Tokyo (NRT) -Bengaluru to July 1st, as of now.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... july-2020/
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:09 pm

avier wrote:
Confirmed. JAL has delayed launch of Tokyo (NRT) -Bengaluru to July 1st, as of now.


That is not a data-based decision, they should review pie in the sky charts once again. JAL should talk to ANA, stop MAA so they can start.
All posts are just opinions.
 
killswitch13
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:28 pm

Air India to operate AI 121/AI120(DEL-FRA-DEL) on Wed, Fri, Sun

Air India to reduce Mumbai-Frankfurt from 4 flights/week to 2 flights/week

Air India to operate AI 125/124 (BOM-FRA-BOM) on Tue, Fri from Mar 18- Apr 29
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:57 pm

VTCIE wrote:
VTORD, @vadodara, @hohd, @fortunerunner and others: do you have any insights or possible reasons why nobody has relaunched flights between BOM and PNQ after 9W (the sole operator) collapsed? The demand is high enough to fill three or four A320s a day.

Granted, other than the sole service to DXB operated by SG and IX, a city as major as PNQ will remain unconnected to any and all international destinations, while the CNNs and CCJs of the country leap upon every Middle Eastern route they can find (assuming that there is no coronavirus, as the Middle East is now under such a lockdown that CNN may soon be reduced to a PNQ-like state). Also, PNQ will never be graced by an A330, 777 or 787, which are regular occurrences at—if not CCJ—COK or, up north, LKO for that matter.

In that case, why force all the ex-BOM international travellers to take an Uber from PNQ to BOM? Why not operate feeder flights yourself? Or is it too harmful for the environment? Or will Uber and all the taxiwalas make such fat margins that it is not worth flying? This is a question for 6E, AI and G8 to ponder.


9W never operated a 'feeder' flight on BOM-PNQ. There was a sole CCU-BOM-PNQ operated in the morning, IIRC. The BOM-PNQ segment was aimed at the O/D corporate crowd as well as international 9W (and partner/code-share airline) pax arriving at BOM. There was no arrangement in the opposite direction, i.e; feeding pax from PNQ to 9Ws international departures. The convenience of single PNR booking into PNQ is probably what sustained the flight.

If there's any airline that can attempt to replicate the model above, it is SpiceJet. Simply because it operates from T2 at BOM and could dedicate a slot pair to feed into BOMs night-time international pax. But then, they do not have the advantage of interlining/code-sharing with foreign carriers (yet) Nor do they have a large international presence at BOM, which would encourage international pax from PNQ to fly on the feeders. As far as international-domestic transit is concerned, both AI and UK do a far better job of offering transit at DEL to the PNQ based international traveller, because both have their hubs at DEL.

6E and G8 fly from T1 and the inconvenience of a city-side terminal transfer to T2 simply makes international transit itineraries on those airlines unattractive to people from Pune. As others have answered, the high demand of o/d pax between the cities is met by many land-based options available at a far cheaper price. The time wasted in check-in procedures discourages LCC O/D traffic.

I feel if the airlines really thought that there was money to be made flying 'feeders' on BOM-PNQ, someone or the other would have taken it up using 9Ws slots at BOM and PNQ.
Last edited by trinidadeG on Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If these are enough BASAs, EK will send a 77W to CCU, keep TRV and increase service to BLR.


Thats an assumption, as Ive pointed out before. Everyones free to hold on to their assumptions.


Yes, just like your assumption that BLR is great than TRV is the reason EK moved service. Only thing you are presenting your assumption as fact.
Well, you've accepted that you were making assumptions. Which was my point anyway.

Also about Vistara 789 proving flight assumptions. In 2014, the 789 launch customer Air NZ started commercial service in less than a month from delivery. Transtasman is much more complicated than DEL-AMD proving flight. You are making it sound like Vistara took Wright Flyer delivery.
This is 2020, Vistara is struggling to put ONE WB into commercial service.
Its a struggle now, eh?? Why, because edealinfo says so??
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:01 pm

acavpics wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Sure but precisely my point. Why cap EK flights? Publish a negative list of airports and open the rest up.


You know, this is all based on an assumption that IF these caps are removed by the government, then Emirates (and other hallowed foreign carriers) will start flying to ALL eligible Indian airports.

Its hard to ignore that these airlines DO favour larger Indian airports. What would you say if, (were the Indian government to allow more seats to DXB) EK would simply dump more A380s and B777s to the bigger Indian airports it already serves, instead of flying from smaller airports which "deserve" more flights??

You and I are free to think highly of India's smaller airports, but these airlines know where their bacon (India-US transit traffic) is, and keep dropping hints.. EK dropped two in 2019.
1) AAI allowed wide-body aircraft to return to CCJ recently. Did Emirates return?? No. It sent FZ instead.
2) EK also recently shifted some flights from TRV (smaller city) to BLR (growing South Indian hub).

Removal of the cap will not benefit the country as many think it would.


But then, part of the reason that EK (And other gulf carriers) has so much Indian connecting traffic to India from Americas and Europe is because it flies to a lot of these smaller cities that were not previously accessible via one stop options. Big cities like BLR, BOM, DEL were always accessible via European carriers. The same cannot be said about cities like Kochi, Trivandrum, Kozhikode etc. Not to mention, most Indian expats in the UAE are Malayalis.


From the time the ME3 rose to prominence in India (they've not existed forever), the bulk of their pax base has been O/D traffic from Kerala/South India. The proportion of EU/US transit traffic was (and still is) relatively smaller and not really the reason for them deploying multiple daily wide-bodies, IMO.

Indian-connecting traffic to US/EU has traditionally existed from Gujarat and Punjab as well. But we didn't see EK try to mount a similar scale of ops from those states, back in the day. I believe that's because these northern states did not have as large a population in the Gulf as the Keralites.

But a lot has changed since the arrival of LCCs globally. The O/D component on India Gulf can be serviced more cost effectively by narrow-body aircraft on short haul sectors. Meaning Wide-bodies can be diverted to where they matter the most.

What I have suggested is that there is a visible trend in the way EK has 're-distribute' their allotted weekly seats, and I am reading that trend to mean that they're prioritising the larger airports simply because there is a higher percentage of transit traffic/premium traffic from those cities. To cater to the smaller section of EU/NA transit traffic originating in smaller cities, EK has FlyDubai, and soon they'll have SpiceJet code-shares as well.

Merely because it made financial sense in the pre-IndiGo era for EK to fly three wide-bodies daily into TRV, doesn't mean we can safely assume that this arrangement will continue in perpetuity. Especially given the difficult times the entire industry is going through. The small section of transit travellers from smaller airports will be funnelled via FZ or SpiceJet code-shares.

Even the Singapore airlines group, which is also grappling with a seat-limit, shuffled around its India routes between Scoot and Singapore/Silkair to similar effect.

Another pointer is the Qatar Airways-Indigo collaboration last year, where QR placed one-way code-shares on 6E's India routes. This arrangement potentially allowed QR to "serve" each of the Two-dozen International airports in India merely by getting 6E to launch flights to DOH and have it codeshare the route with QR! It's similar to the hypothetical scenario where India removes caps for DXB and they have a free run of India's hinterland... The foreign carrier would jump at the opportunity of "serving" the "deserving" small airports/

However, what eventually happened is the code-share was executed to only three Indian routes. And those routes weren't small cities. The deal was designed to boost QRs inventory on established routes to fuel its US/EU operations..
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:02 pm

vadodara wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Sure but precisely my point. Why cap EK flights? Publish a negative list of airports and open the rest up.


You know, this is all based on an assumption that IF these caps are removed by the government, then Emirates (and other hallowed foreign carriers) will start flying to ALL eligible Indian airports.
.


Did you understand my import before getting into the typical pompous Mumbikar tirade?

If you think BOM and it’s 25mm inhabitants deserve the world, why can’t an airline seem to run profitable routes out of the city?

You guys have stats to make a point?


BOM serves the Financial capital of India. The city's economy drives the airport's traffic. No airline is doing a favour on Mumbaikars by flying their precious planes to that airport. Nobody has ever said that BOM "deserves" to "connectivity" to XYZ airport!!

If an airline cannot "make a profit" whilst flying to BOM, they're free to withdraw. Nobody forces their hand. It's plain Capitalism at the end of the day. This doesn't take anything away from the fact that new airlines continue to make a bee-line for the airport, season after season.

I love how you demand statistics from "Pompous Mumbaikars", as though the 1000 posts you've racked up on this forum are peppered with statistics supporting your claims. LOL.
 
VTORD
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:19 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
There was no arrangement in the opposite direction, i.e; feeding pax from PNQ to 9Ws international departures. The convenience of single PNR booking into PNQ is probably what sustained the flight.

There was. I know because my buddy traveled PNQ-BOM-BRU-EWR on 9W and for whaterver reason that I cannot recollect now, I had paid for the ticket. I recall both of us being concerned about "through check in". He had to go to the 9W counter and identify his checked bag so that it could be loaded on the international flight.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:34 pm

VTORD wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
There was no arrangement in the opposite direction, i.e; feeding pax from PNQ to 9Ws international departures. The convenience of single PNR booking into PNQ is probably what sustained the flight.

There was. I know because my buddy traveled PNQ-BOM-BRU-EWR on 9W and for whaterver reason that I cannot recollect now, I had paid for the ticket. I recall both of us being concerned about "through check in". He had to go to the 9W counter and identify his checked bag so that it could be loaded on the international flight.

You may be right, through check-in for intl would have been both ways.
From what I remember it was a CCU-BOM-PNQ flight in the morning, and the reverse direction in the evening.
But it was one daily flight each way still on BOM-PNQ v.v and that can be in no way classified a "shuttle" service, which itself means high frequency on a very short sector.

trinidadeG wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Did you understand my import before getting into the typical pompous Mumbikar tirade?
.......
You guys have stats to make a point?


BOM serves the Financial capital of India. The city's economy drives the airport's traffic.

The city's economy also drives the country's economy, okay . :-)
Last edited by avier on Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:38 pm

VTORD wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
There was no arrangement in the opposite direction, i.e; feeding pax from PNQ to 9Ws international departures. The convenience of single PNR booking into PNQ is probably what sustained the flight.

There was. I know because my buddy traveled PNQ-BOM-BRU-EWR on 9W and for whaterver reason that I cannot recollect now, I had paid for the ticket. I recall both of us being concerned about "through check in". He had to go to the 9W counter and identify his checked bag so that it could be loaded on the international flight.

Ah, thanks a lot! I stand corrected.
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:43 pm

avier wrote:
You may be right, through check-in for intl would have been both ways.
From what I remember it was a CCU-BOM-PNQ flight in the morning, and the reverse direction in the evening.
But it was one daily flight each way still on BOM-PNQ v.v and that can be in no way classified a "shuttle" service, which itself means high frequency on a very short sector.


Do you recall how many frequencies on BOM-PNQ existed in the 1990s? During the HS-748/F-27 era of IC or even East-West Airlines?
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:51 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
avier wrote:
You may be right, through check-in for intl would have been both ways.
From what I remember it was a CCU-BOM-PNQ flight in the morning, and the reverse direction in the evening.
But it was one daily flight each way still on BOM-PNQ v.v and that can be in no way classified a "shuttle" service, which itself means high frequency on a very short sector.


Do you recall how many frequencies on BOM-PNQ existed in the 1990s? During the HS-748/F-27 era of IC or even East-West Airlines?

I was born in the 90's, so wouldn't know too much details :-).
But I do remember IC used to operate 1-2 daily on a 737-200.
9W too earlier had two daily on BOM-PNQ- a morning and evening service, even after IC had pulled out of the route. My grandad used to take the 9W flight mostly, and it was popular with B town celebs too.
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:19 pm

avier wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
avier wrote:
You may be right, through check-in for intl would have been both ways.
From what I remember it was a CCU-BOM-PNQ flight in the morning, and the reverse direction in the evening.
But it was one daily flight each way still on BOM-PNQ v.v and that can be in no way classified a "shuttle" service, which itself means high frequency on a very short sector.


Do you recall how many frequencies on BOM-PNQ existed in the 1990s? During the HS-748/F-27 era of IC or even East-West Airlines?

I was born in the 90's, so wouldn't know too much details :-).
But I do remember IC used to operate 1-2 daily on a 737-200.
9W too earlier had two daily on BOM-PNQ- a morning and evening service, even after IC had pulled out of the route. My grandad used to take the 9W flight mostly, and it was popular with B town celebs too.

Thanks.
The thing is, in that era, the Mumbai Pune Expressway didn't exist. And airport security procedures only got stringent post the Kandahar hijack and 9/11. So air commuting on BOM-PNQ probably made sense to a lot of people back then?
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:28 pm

avier wrote:
The city's economy also drives the country's economy, okay . :-)


Shhh. You'll offend the NRI's who think that their remittances drive the nations economy... :)
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:23 am

trinidadeG wrote:
The thing is, in that era, the Mumbai Pune Expressway didn't exist. And airport security procedures only got stringent post the Kandahar hijack and 9/11. So air commuting on BOM-PNQ probably made sense to a lot of people back then?

I guess it was primarily the road travel conditions back then that made the air option more preferable. The expressway then changed all of that. But I'm sure there would be many takers for a flight even today. It's just that both airports have run out of slots for domestic flights. They could have tried something from Juhu aerodrome, but even that won't happen.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:49 am

There is no rule stopping other airlines from flying into PNQ. Only the runway restriction and slots. LH had 737/A319 into PNQ.

Flydubai wanted daytime slots and there were none to be had. Plus there are watch hours on 2 days of the week meaning no flights between 1000-1500 hours. FZ could have begun flights in the night time if they wanted like AIX and SG do.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
VTCIE
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:10 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:28 am

Another interesting turn regarding the red-hot PNQ discussion. When the Navi Mumbai airport, which I abbreviate as NVM, comes up, how will you split the Puneri traffic among BOM, NVM and PNQ? Depending on the role (international or domestic) played by NVM, and assuming that the Air Force continues to have its way at PNQ and there is no new airport, how many Punekars will continue to go all the way to BOM, how many will stop at NVM for their travels, and how many will go to the slot-restrained and Air Force–controlled PNQ? Expert insights are welcomed.
 
FligtReporter
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:47 am

VTCIE wrote:
Another interesting turn regarding the red-hot PNQ discussion. When the Navi Mumbai airport, which I abbreviate as NVM, comes up, how will you split the Puneri traffic among BOM, NVM and PNQ? Depending on the role (international or domestic) played by NVM, and assuming that the Air Force continues to have its way at PNQ and there is no new airport, how many Punekars will continue to go all the way to BOM, how many will stop at NVM for their travels, and how many will go to the slot-restrained and Air Force–controlled PNQ? Expert insights are welcomed.


No Expert but given PNQ and BOM are just about over a 100 KM and PNQ for the time being has an Air Force Station as its Airport..I dont see any brighter days for PNQ at least UNLESS it gets a new airport soon...Till then Let alone Wide bodies even Narrow bodies of regional intl airlines wont be intrested given the current domestic traffic is so high and the infrastructure at PNQ is as poor as the traffic.

Thats my honest opinion !
 
freqflyer
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:34 am

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:03 am

FligtReporter wrote:
avier wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
BDQ is just around 90 Somethin KMs from AMD


True. I don't understand why someone here on this forum still feels Baroda residents would prefer to go +400 Km away to catch a flight, when there is a much nearer int'l airport with decent flight connectivity.


EXACTLY...whoever that someone is he or she is definitely close to insane lolz. ...
So a Gujrati person at BDQ or SVT would rather travel to AMD and fly to Singapore,London,Dubai,Oman,Qatar than going all the way to BOM and Im not talking this without facts because I know people who work at LKO a.....
So A person from SVT and BDQ are most likely to catch a flight to Dubai from AMD than BOM and what also makes a difference is the congestion usually pax dont prefer BOM or DEL as they are too crowded and busy especially the naive innoquous labour folks and prefer their local native Airports.


Distance doesn't matter when EK routinely charges about 30% more for flights to and from AMD than it does from BOM. Just 2 days ago I was quoted 102k+ return from BCN to AMD for a family member studying there and wanting to beat the quarantine dates . Finally booked through BOM at a little under 72K return. AI charged 3500 for BOM -AMD with 25 kg. Emirates AMD office staff said they wanted more flights to AMD but would not give-up BOM slots to do so.
This person left in Sept by Emirates from BOM too. The difference then more than made up for the extra AMD-BOM tix for 2 and 1 BOM-AMD as it was booked much in advance.
 
avier
Posts: 1126
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:34 am

Be it using BOM or NMIA, either ways, Punekars are going to be using the two Mumbai airports for a long time to come.

Knowing the lackadaisical MH gov and the pace of their project developments, this might be the reality. I just hope the new Pune int'l airport comes up before NMIA, lest the MH govt becomes complacent over developing the new Pune airport saying Punekars are happy with NMIA and it will now serve as the new airport for the city, thereby scrapping the new Pune airport project altogether.
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