Indian Aviation Thread - March 2020

FligtReporter · Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
...
Yeah my fight is against Air Force but yeah Its same cor Navy that VTZ is also under an autocratic regime..Its time the citizens of these cities fight for their Airports to have equal opportunities like other airports and enjoy all the benefits of a democratic Independent Airport anywhere in the world !

VTZ will never get a new airport and VGA will never get an international service. Andhra Pradesh fails follow basic rules, you turn over the state if you want any services or funds from central government. They haven't learned their lesson, yet.

I fear more about PNQ..I just hope NMIA doesnt get completed before New Pune Airport or else new PNQ may never be completed and Pune residents will forever be forced to Take the pain of visiting another airport serving PNQ too

When JFK and EWR can be two different airports for more or less the same city then why cant PNQ which is a city of its own have another big INTL airport.

JFK and EWR both have direct connectivity to India simillarly PNQ and BOM can have direct flights to EWR or JFK it could act as a secondary BIG BASE.

Oh Snap....I just realized this is India..Im probably dreaming of PNQ EVER getting a widebody let alone a Direct connectivity to the States :crying:

trinidadeG · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:04 pm

I think that the Ministry of Defence will not allow it (returning existing military fields to civil control), even if the logistics were sorted somehow. After the 2009 attacks at Mumbai, rather than return airfields for civilian use, the reverse has happened. The MoD has taken over several more small civilian airstrips across the country for use by various military forces and also commissioned "Military Enclaves" (the opposite of civil enclaves") at larger Civil airports in the country as a means of strengthening their presence evenly along the country's borders and coastline.

Adipocere · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:26 pm

Does Indian law have the concept of “eminent domain” to allow the local government to take over property for specific economic benefits? Could that be used to clear the military out of some of these smaller airfields?

dtw2hyd · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:32 pm

Adipocere wrote:
Does Indian law have the concept of “eminent domain” to allow the local government to take over property for specific economic benefits? Could that be used to clear the military out of some of these smaller airfields?

I believe every country has some kind of eminent domain laws, the problem is Modi doesn't believe in "reasonable and just compensation" which always goes with eminent domain laws.

trinidadeG · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:41 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
I fear more about PNQ..I just hope NMIA doesnt get completed before New Pune Airport or else new PNQ may never be completed and Pune residents will forever be forced to Take the pain of visiting another airport serving PNQ too

NMIA is already under construction, while Pune's greenfield airport is still on paper. So definitely NMIA will be up and running first. Also, the Khopoli- Kusgaon bypass on the Pune-Mumbai Expressway (also known as the missing link project) is expected to be completed by 2022. The project comprising of tunnels and viaduct, basically bypasses the hair-pin bends and steep inclines of the NH-48 alignment, making for a faster and safer drive down to NMIA from Pune.

However, this doesn't mean that the new Pune airport will not be taken up/completed, IMO.

subramak1 · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:43 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
pune wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:

Why are these step motherly treatment to these airports anyways ? This reminds of my a neighbouring town to my base KNU whose Partial military air base is used as a civil airport and same for IXD and AGR ..Oh and GOP as well..Damn I guess in my state only LKO and VNS are two fully Functional Civil International airports others are just at the mercy of Air Force.

This PNQ plight has now ignited a fire in my avgeek heart to do more research about such cities which are at the mercy of Air Force but do deserve a fully functional Civil Airports with full liberty and freedom.

Hmm...I will research and list down all the
(IAAMOAF) = INDIAN AIRPORTS AT THE MERCY OF AIR FORCE...Its high time the Aviation authority gives all these towns and cities their right to a proper civil aerodrome ans hope it happens soon !

Hope you do make the list soon, would be of invaluable service to Indian civil aviation enthusiasts like myself.

After a profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports Here is My List of IAAMOAF ( INDIAN AIRPORTS AT MERCY OF AIR FORCE ) these airports,out of which some,are the Most famous ones in the country also have huge traffic but still have been denied the Democratic birth right of Free flow of Air traffic at their runways,Infrastructural constraints and overall stalled Potential due to 'em being governed by the Autocratic Air Force Regime.

PORT BLAIR*
PASIGHAT
GUWAHATI*
JORHAT
SILCHAR
TEZPUR
CHANDIGARH*
GOA**
BHUJ
JAMMU
SRINAGAR
LEH
PUNE**
BHATINDA
JALANDHAR
LUDHIANA
PATHANKOT
BIKANER
JAISALMER
JODHPUR*
AGRA*
ALLAHABAD
HINDON (GHAZIABAD)
GORAKHPUR
KANPUR

(**) URGENT NEED OF INDEPENDENT INTL AIRPORT

(*) Deserve to have Independent Domestic Airport

I hope the Indian Air Force either give these airports their rightful freedom to embrace widebodies and planes to far and wide or The Corrupt politicians get them cities an independent Airport !

#FreedomFromAirForce #WeWantFreedom #AirForceCantRuleUs #WeDeserveWideBodies #WeDeserveInternationalFlights #NoMoreAirForce

There is nothing autocratic about airforce use. These fields have been dual use for many years but owned by airforce and the state governments need to take the initiative to build a new one. Unfortunately Pune has been the loser from successive governments in Maharastra as there is no strong leader from Pune since Suresh Kalmadi who can lobby for pune. Unlike Pune Nagpur has had PP, Gadkari and Fadnavis - now Nagpur has a functioning metro even though it is only 1/3 the size of Pune

Adipocere · Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:47 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Does Indian law have the concept of “eminent domain” to allow the local government to take over property for specific economic benefits? Could that be used to clear the military out of some of these smaller airfields?

I believe every country has some kind of eminent domain laws, the problem is Modi doesn't believe in "reasonable and just compensation" which always goes with eminent domain laws.

If it’s the military why would they be given any compensation - won’t any compensation just go from the Federal treasury, back to the treasury??...

blrsea · Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:00 pm

subramak1 wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
pune wrote:

Hope you do make the list soon, would be of invaluable service to Indian civil aviation enthusiasts like myself.

After a profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports Here is My List of IAAMOAF ( INDIAN AIRPORTS AT MERCY OF AIR FORCE ) these airports,out of which some,are the Most famous ones in the country also have huge traffic but still have been denied the Democratic birth right of Free flow of Air traffic at their runways,Infrastructural constraints and overall stalled Potential due to 'em being governed by the Autocratic Air Force Regime.

PORT BLAIR*
PASIGHAT
GUWAHATI*
JORHAT
SILCHAR
TEZPUR
CHANDIGARH*
GOA**
BHUJ
JAMMU
SRINAGAR
LEH
PUNE**
BHATINDA
JALANDHAR
LUDHIANA
PATHANKOT
BIKANER
JAISALMER
JODHPUR*
AGRA*
ALLAHABAD
HINDON (GHAZIABAD)
GORAKHPUR
KANPUR

(**) URGENT NEED OF INDEPENDENT INTL AIRPORT

(*) Deserve to have Independent Domestic Airport

I hope the Indian Air Force either give these airports their rightful freedom to embrace widebodies and planes to far and wide or The Corrupt politicians get them cities an independent Airport !

#FreedomFromAirForce #WeWantFreedom #AirForceCantRuleUs #WeDeserveWideBodies #WeDeserveInternationalFlights #NoMoreAirForce

There is nothing autocratic about airforce use. These fields have been dual use for many years but owned by airforce and the state governments need to take the initiative to build a new one. Unfortunately Pune has been the loser from successive governments in Maharastra as there is no strong leader from Pune since Suresh Kalmadi who can lobby for pune. Unlike Pune Nagpur has had PP, Gadkari and Fadnavis - now Nagpur has a functioning metro even though it is only 1/3 the size of Pune

True, also the central government has spent thousands of crores on IAF's facilities. Why will they give it away for free and spend thousands of crores building new facilities? And tax payers will anyway be forced to foot the bill. Lets be realistic. As per GoI policies for last 10-15 years, all new airports will be in PPP model, with lead private developer putting in money to build the airport. In existing airports under AAI, state govts need to provide land and central govt will construct the infrastructure.

In many cases where defence land was taken over by state governments (in Bangalore or Hyderabad), land of equal value was provided by state government along with some compensation. In case of mobile spectrum that had to be alloted to civil telecom companies, new frequencies were allotted and infrastructure built for defence and once that was ready and defence could shift over to new one, the old spectrum was vacated. The price to build the new infrastructure was charged from the telecom companies and BSNL built the infrastructure if I remember correctly.

People are acting as though IAF upsurped the land illegally and are making profits out of it.

FligtReporter · Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:23 pm

Saudia,Oman air have suspended their ops to my base and now Flynas has done the same....Im so sad to not to see that Biggie SV 333 at 5:30 PM taking off in the beautiful dusk of LKO and gracing my base with its huge presence ...Oh Lord :crying:

FlyDubai and Thai Smile on the other hand are continuing to operate as Normal.

Thankfully I have already spotted Oman,FlyNas,FlyDubai,Saudia and all the foreign visitors to LKO and I will always have them forever to cherish in just a case any of these airlines May never come back :crying:

I pray to God that our aviation industry may recover soon from China Wuhan Virus and may this China Wuhan Virus be gone soon forever !

dtw2hyd · Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:25 pm

Adipocere wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
Does Indian law have the concept of “eminent domain” to allow the local government to take over property for specific economic benefits? Could that be used to clear the military out of some of these smaller airfields?

I believe every country has some kind of eminent domain laws, the problem is Modi doesn't believe in "reasonable and just compensation" which always goes with eminent domain laws.

If it’s the military why would they be given any compensation - won’t any compensation just go from the Federal treasury, back to the treasury??...

Eminent domain laws are there to take over private property for justified public use.

Land in use by the defense forces or federal public sector entities is bit tricky. Land may be state-owned on a 99-year lease to the military. See Hyderabad on Google maps. There are vast lands used by PSUs and defense, while most of the population is cramped in the rest. The government of Telangana cannot get even a small slice back.

Air India building in Mumbai is on Maharastra owned land, It cannot sell the building, because it is built on state-owned leased land.

pune · Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:16 pm

unnayan wrote:
Moving an air force station may not be as straight forward as it seems. There are associated infrastructures too such as schools, living quarters, permiter security, hangars etc...

that is also true, not to forget hospitals as well. Usually a cantonment area is self-sufficient with all its needs. I am guessing the Air force stations would be modeled on similar ways.

pune · Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:32 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
Saudia,Oman air have suspended their ops to my base and now Flynas has done the same....Im so sad to not to see that Biggie SV 333 at 5:30 PM taking off in the beautiful dusk of LKO and gracing my base with its huge presence ...Oh Lord

FlyDubai and Thai Smile on the other hand are continuing to operate as Normal.

Thankfully I have already spotted Oman,FlyNas,FlyDubai,Saudia and all the foreign visitors to LKO and I will always have them forever to cherish in just a case any of these airlines May never come back

I pray to God that our aviation industry may recover soon from China Wuhan Virus and may this China Wuhan Virus be gone soon forever !

I think the point to learn from all this is that in this hyper-connected world we would have some virus or the other, what we need are faster and better response methodologies. Medical aid should be free . I think I had shared it before, I was once returning from Qatar, a family was coming to India and they had a small child who was running a fever. Now all the waiting rooms in the Airports are A/C and humid and taking the kid outside was not an option because of the weather outside. She needed medical help but didn't know what to do. The husband was similarly clueless. He was thinking getting help might be expensive as everything in Airport is expensive.

What this virus is teaching us that if we want to travel, we should take precautions but at the same time have facilities so we can face things quickly. Could Airports think of having quarantine areas, maybe some of the cargo area could be designed such that it could be used as a quarantine/medical triage camp in case of a virus outbreak or a terrorist attack or anything else for that matter. Who should fund it and how it should be done are again open questions, of course some portion could be taken from passenger's taxes/airport charges or whatever it is technically called. The real challenge would be having a system that works and is responsive. If an airport has a neo-natal ward that would probably also help. I guess what we need is imagination and figure out ways to prevent situations from escalating and be in space of anticipation rather than be reactionary.

I am sure some of the people who go to the airport and aircraft conferences and summits would have more of an idea if we can look forward to something like this in the future. It will also be a differentiator perhaps from other airports as well as have as be looked as a safer place to be.

edealinfo · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:24 am

edealinfo wrote:
On the subject of the sale of Air India:

given the timing (caronavirus and uncertainty), will it be wise for Vistara to bid for Air India (possibly buy at bargain basement price because given the circumstances that’s probably the only price Air India could fetch), or downright foolish (throwing good money after possibly bad)?

I answered my own question via this article below. Basically, Vistara would be nuts to bid for Air India.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/coron ... 495921.htm

FligtReporter · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:34 am

pune wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Saudia,Oman air have suspended their ops to my base and now Flynas has done the same....Im so sad to not to see that Biggie SV 333 at 5:30 PM taking off in the beautiful dusk of LKO and gracing my base with its huge presence ...Oh Lord

FlyDubai and Thai Smile on the other hand are continuing to operate as Normal.

Thankfully I have already spotted Oman,FlyNas,FlyDubai,Saudia and all the foreign visitors to LKO and I will always have them forever to cherish in just a case any of these airlines May never come back

I pray to God that our aviation industry may recover soon from China Wuhan Virus and may this China Wuhan Virus be gone soon forever !

I think the point to learn from all this is that in this hyper-connected world we would have some virus or the other, what we need are faster and better response methodologies. Medical aid should be free . I think I had shared it before, I was once returning from Qatar, a family was coming to India and they had a small child who was running a fever. Now all the waiting rooms in the Airports are A/C and humid and taking the kid outside was not an option because of the weather outside. She needed medical help but didn't know what to do. The husband was similarly clueless. He was thinking getting help might be expensive as everything in Airport is expensive.

What this virus is teaching us that if we want to travel, we should take precautions but at the same time have facilities so we can face things quickly. Could Airports think of having quarantine areas, maybe some of the cargo area could be designed such that it could be used as a quarantine/medical triage camp in case of a virus outbreak or a terrorist attack or anything else for that matter. Who should fund it and how it should be done are again open questions, of course some portion could be taken from passenger's taxes/airport charges or whatever it is technically called. The real challenge would be having a system that works and is responsive. If an airport has a neo-natal ward that would probably also help. I guess what we need is imagination and figure out ways to prevent situations from escalating and be in space of anticipation rather than be reactionary.

I am sure some of the people who go to the airport and aircraft conferences and summits would have more of an idea if we can look forward to something like this in the future. It will also be a differentiator perhaps from other airports as well as have as be looked as a safer place to be.

I second that !

CaliguyNYC · Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:35 am

edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
On the subject of the sale of Air India:

given the timing (caronavirus and uncertainty), will it be wise for Vistara to bid for Air India (possibly buy at bargain basement price because given the circumstances that’s probably the only price Air India could fetch), or downright foolish (throwing good money after possibly bad)?

I answered my own question via this article below. Basically, Vistara would be nuts to bid for Air India.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/coron ... 495921.htm

Umm me thinks the AI sale will delayed. Look at what is happening (would apply to all buyers not just Vistara). No airline is strong right now

trinidadeG · Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:59 am

COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

unnayan · Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:42 am

trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Scale down yes . Shut down no... domestic prices are high due to panic buying

Besides if anything, now is when AI proved its value

JOYA380B747 · Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:37 am

FligtReporter wrote:

After a profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports Here is My List of IAAMOAF ( INDIAN AIRPORTS AT MERCY OF AIR FORCE ) these airports,out of which some,are the Most famous ones in the country also have huge traffic but still have been denied the Democratic birth right of Free flow of Air traffic at their runways,Infrastructural constraints and overall stalled Potential due to 'em being governed by the Autocratic Air Force Regime.

PORT BLAIR*
PASIGHAT
GUWAHATI*
JORHAT
SILCHAR
TEZPUR
CHANDIGARH*
GOA**
BHUJ
JAMMU
SRINAGAR
LEH
PUNE**
BHATINDA
JALANDHAR
LUDHIANA
PATHANKOT
BIKANER
JAISALMER
JODHPUR*
AGRA*
ALLAHABAD
HINDON (GHAZIABAD)
GORAKHPUR
KANPUR

(**) URGENT NEED OF INDEPENDENT INTL AIRPORT

(*) Deserve to have Independent Domestic Airport

I hope the Indian Air Force either give these airports their rightful freedom to embrace widebodies and planes to far and wide or The Corrupt politicians get them cities an independent Airport !

#FreedomFromAirForce #WeWantFreedom #AirForceCantRuleUs #WeDeserveWideBodies #WeDeserveInternationalFlights #NoMoreAirForce

Quite hilarious of you to mention it as a "profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports" when you were so silly to miss out on the 17th busiest airport in India, IXB/VEBD Bagdogra Intl Airport which is also the Indian AFB of the No. 20 Wing which is also the air base for Indian Army's XXXIII Corps. Along with Hasimara AFB, they are the two most crucial bases of this region, with borders of 4 countries within 100kms of distance - Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan and China - the most for any region of India. The civilian airport of it caters to passengers of 4 states - West bengal, North Bihar, Sikkim and Western Assam.

FligtReporter · Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:25 am

JOYA380B747 wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:

After a profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports Here is My List of IAAMOAF ( INDIAN AIRPORTS AT MERCY OF AIR FORCE ) these airports,out of which some,are the Most famous ones in the country also have huge traffic but still have been denied the Democratic birth right of Free flow of Air traffic at their runways,Infrastructural constraints and overall stalled Potential due to 'em being governed by the Autocratic Air Force Regime.

PORT BLAIR*
PASIGHAT
GUWAHATI*
JORHAT
SILCHAR
TEZPUR
CHANDIGARH*
GOA**
BHUJ
JAMMU
SRINAGAR
LEH
PUNE**
BHATINDA
JALANDHAR
LUDHIANA
PATHANKOT
BIKANER
JAISALMER
JODHPUR*
AGRA*
ALLAHABAD
HINDON (GHAZIABAD)
GORAKHPUR
KANPUR

(**) URGENT NEED OF INDEPENDENT INTL AIRPORT

(*) Deserve to have Independent Domestic Airport

I hope the Indian Air Force either give these airports their rightful freedom to embrace widebodies and planes to far and wide or The Corrupt politicians get them cities an independent Airport !

#FreedomFromAirForce #WeWantFreedom #AirForceCantRuleUs #WeDeserveWideBodies #WeDeserveInternationalFlights #NoMoreAirForce

Quite hilarious of you to mention it as a "profound research and analysis of the Indian Airports" when you were so silly to miss out on the 17th busiest airport in India, IXB/VEBD Bagdogra Intl Airport which is also the Indian AFB of the No. 20 Wing which is also the air base for Indian Army's XXXIII Corps. Along with Hasimara AFB, they are the two most crucial bases of this region, with borders of 4 countries within 100kms of distance - Nepal, Bangladesh, Bhutan and China - the most for any region of India. The civilian airport of it caters to passengers of 4 states - West bengal, North Bihar, Sikkim and Western Assam.

Oh yeah..Thanks for adding it..damn how could I miss that...If you find more missing make sure to keep addin em to the list !

trinidadeG · Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:47 am

Some good solutions for the Indian Aviation Industry to survive COVID19 as put forth in this MoneyControl article. I'm just pasting the headings to keep it short. Link to article at the bottom.

The past few weeks have brought a relentless stream of bad news for the airline industry. One after another, countries are imposing restrictions to avoid the spread of COVID19 – which is now declared a pandemic by the World Health Organization (WHO). Airfares have started plummeting, flight schedules are being curtailed and airlines are looking at ways to tide over this crisis while continuing to stay afloat. Both airlines and airports are looking at the government to give temporary relief to tide over the crisis. However, one has to look at the requests in two ways. One, where the industry gets immediate relief and two, where there is a long-term impact and structural changes in the system.
A case in point is of airlines requesting for permission for direct import of oil when oil was at its peak. When the permissions were granted, oil prices had tapered and the airlines also found it difficult to manage the direct import and subsequent transport to airports. The demand of inclusion of Aviation Turbine Fuel (ATF) under GST is an old one but something which cannot be implemented immediately, thanks to the process and the number of stakeholders involved.

Yet, here is a list of five things which can give “immediate” relief to airlines.
1. Temporary suspension of Route Dispersal Guidelines (RDG)
2. Withdrawal of use-it-or-lose-it-policy
3. Weekly revision of oil prices
4. Increased credit period
5. Withdrawal of UDAN Cess

This is a time when the industry, regulator and government have to look at new ways. Indeed, this is unprecedented and hence it is fair to not be prepared for this but this is the right time for structural changes. While currently people have money to fly, clearly the health emergency is keeping them away. A longer duration of closure will lead to a wider impact on the economy with possible job losses across sectors. When the world and India recovers from the impact of coronavirus, the impact of job losses and wider economic slowdown will be felt. Airlines could be in this cycle for a longer term than anticipated and unfortunately, all of them may not make it till the end.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 1.html/amp

edealinfo · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:37 pm

unnayan wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Scale down yes . Shut down no... domestic prices are high due to panic buying

Besides if anything, now is when AI proved its value

Proved its value? This makes no sense. US and other nations use charter flights to bring their citizens back home. They don’t buy or operate an entire airline to bring back stranded citizens.

This is the perfect time to shut down Air India which will help the other carriers to perhaps survive without a bailout. The air India employees that volunteered to do the rescue flights could be transferred to Air India Express (which the government should retain) so they can keep their jobs.

The government can then auction Air India slots . It should go to the highest bidder who can operate the slots from an Indian destination to the foreign one. This will prevent foreign carriers from gobbling Air India’s LHR slots. Finally, the Government could also package the slots with equipment and employees. For instance, Air India’s LHR slot package for auction could be bundled with X planes and Y employees.

The coronovirus situation is a perfect excuse to make the drastic changes that would otherwise by politically insurmountable.

dtw2hyd · Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:52 pm

edealinfo wrote:

US and other nations use charter flights to bring their citizens back home.

which will help the other carriers to perhaps survive without a bailout.

Cargo planes without toilets. If VT-TSD is done with proving flights, it should start bringing back Indians home. It can prove its loyalty to the country.

There are these perpetual bailouts called NPAs for private Indian airlines. All airlines are taxpayer-subsidized.

With all the unserviceable debt of the books to SPV and all the planes paid off, financially AI is in better shape than any other airline in the world.

edealinfo · Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:03 pm

I wonder if the Government can carve Air India into a good AI and bad AI. The good AI can have all the lucrative and financially routes. They could be allowed to operate and finally sold while the bad could be allowed to let go permanently

avier · Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:26 pm

Vistara has opened bookings for their 789 flights, to be operated on DEL-BOM from 19th March, on flight no. UK933/ UK996.

FligtReporter · Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:47 pm

avier wrote:
Vistara has opened bookings for their 789 flights, to be operated on DEL-BOM from 19th March, on flight no. UK933/ UK996.

Wish I could book the flight but with Chinese Wuhan Virus everywhere I will wait untill this issue goes away, Thanks for the info Though !

unnayan · Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:59 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I wonder if the Government can carve Air India into a good AI and bad AI. The good AI can have all the lucrative and financially routes. They could be allowed to operate and finally sold while the bad could be allowed to let go permanently

If AI can improve asset utilization and monetization to the level of 6E they are not bad. I see planes hardly doing 3-4 sectors a day which hurts them.

Also, we should give due credit where due. Rescuing stranded citizens is one of them. Good luck expecting the Big Blue bully to do the same.

hohd · Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:23 pm

I hope NMIA starts operating soon. Once the virus dies down, the demand for BOM will again pick up and airlines will again have trouble expanding. NMIA may be closer, and probably may be quicker to reach from Pune if the new connector is built. However according to most sources, the existing airport will continue to have most international flights, so Pune residents will still have to go to the existing BOM airport for international connections.

While the new airport is built, one question I ask of Pune travelers, there are several domestic flights to DEL and BLR, why not connect through these cities for travel to Europe or North America or Far East (Japan etc) instead of going to BOM. Is it less expensive or more convenient ? A one stop option via DEL, especially from the same terminal at DEL cannot be too onerous to travel.

dtw2hyd · Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:29 pm

unnayan wrote:
... Good luck expecting the Big Blue bully to do the same.

Someone on the internet said Blue Dart.

trinidadeG · Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:14 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unnayan wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Scale down yes . Shut down no... domestic prices are high due to panic buying

Besides if anything, now is when AI proved its value

Proved its value? This makes no sense. US and other nations use charter flights to bring their citizens back home. They don’t buy or operate an entire airline to bring back stranded citizens.

Ofcourse it makes no sense. But no worries, its only a matter of time. Once Air India is privatised, the government will either deploy chartered planes, or IAF's C-17 Globemasters to execute emergency Evacs. (which have already flown sorties into Iran during this COVID crisis, BTW)

The rest can always look to Blue Dart for their annual jaunt back home, bereft of Government subsidies.

dtw2hyd · Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:16 pm

FYI, every time India tried to send(or Modi wants to showoff) C-17s on a civilian relief mission, foreign countries rejected. Yemeni/Saudi both said hell no. and China/Wuhan delayed for days.

Blue Dart it is.

trinidadeG · Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:54 pm

Foreign countries are free to reject for whatever reason. (It wasn't because of the C-17, though).. India always finds an alternate solution, as in the case of Yemen and China.

Hopefully, next year onwards those solutions will exclude Air India. And Fedex will launch non-stop US-India with Blue Dart code-shares..

fortunerunnner · Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:16 pm

hohd wrote:
I hope NMIA starts operating soon. Once the virus dies down, the demand for BOM will again pick up and airlines will again have trouble expanding. NMIA may be closer, and probably may be quicker to reach from Pune if the new connector is built. However according to most sources, the existing airport will continue to have most international flights, so Pune residents will still have to go to the existing BOM airport for international connections.

While the new airport is built, one question I ask of Pune travelers, there are several domestic flights to DEL and BLR, why not connect through these cities for travel to Europe or North America or Far East (Japan etc) instead of going to BOM. Is it less expensive or more convenient ? A one stop option via DEL, especially from the same terminal at DEL cannot be too onerous to travel.

BOM travel is must for folks from PNQ as not all destinations are available/conveniently priced via DEL. BLR works only for SE destinations as otherwise its out of the way and requires backtracking. In addition to it, PNQ-BLR is a domestic flight as very less number of international connections are available as through booking via BLR so baggage issue prevents people from doing this backtracking. They rather spend 3-4 hours on the road to get to BOM with all their luggage in the cab for Rs.1000 or thereabout using KK Travels who does door to door business from all of Pune. This option is way better, price wise as well as time wise.

Having said that, in recent times many people do make a choice to fly out from DEL for their international flights by taking AI/UK connections. My family has done that on several occasions mostly on AI as SFO-DEL-PNQ-DEL-SFO routing. With UA-UK codeshare agreement, now we have an option to fly with UA in addition to AI from SFO via DEL as one stop option to Pune.

CaliguyNYC · Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:44 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Totally disagree with you. This is actually the time you do pump money in. Every country in the world will be pumping in money to help airlines. Airlines drive an economy and are part of national security. Post this crisis, many airlines will take time to resume service to India. Air India will actually be key in restoring connectivity of india to the world. It’s more important than ever. That said, it still should be sold. But bailouts have nothing to do with the fact that it is up for sale.

CaliguyNYC · Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:47 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unnayan wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Scale down yes . Shut down no... domestic prices are high due to panic buying

Besides if anything, now is when AI proved its value

Proved its value? This makes no sense. US and other nations use charter flights to bring their citizens back home. They don’t buy or operate an entire airline to bring back stranded citizens.

This is the perfect time to shut down Air India which will help the other carriers to perhaps survive without a bailout. The air India employees that volunteered to do the rescue flights could be transferred to Air India Express (which the government should retain) so they can keep their jobs.

The government can then auction Air India slots . It should go to the highest bidder who can operate the slots from an Indian destination to the foreign one. This will prevent foreign carriers from gobbling Air India’s LHR slots. Finally, the Government could also package the slots with equipment and employees. For instance, Air India’s LHR slot package for auction could be bundled with X planes and Y employees.

The coronovirus situation is a perfect excuse to make the drastic changes that would otherwise by politically insurmountable.

Great plan - lets add to unemployment during this. All airlines are going to need a bailout. Watch what other countries are doing to understand basic economic theory. We all think AI is run super poorly but it still serves a purpose to the indian economy contrary to what people on this forum say

CaliguyNYC · Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:50 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I wonder if the Government can carve Air India into a good AI and bad AI. The good AI can have all the lucrative and financially routes. They could be allowed to operate and finally sold while the bad could be allowed to let go permanently

I think it is a certainty. The privatizations I have worked on do exactly this. How much “bad” will go with AI when sold will depend how much the market can bear. But in the end, the GOI has to make AI attractive to a buyer no matter what that means. Just sell it already. Probably not what AI employees want to hear, but the gravy train needs to end

FligtReporter · Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:22 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Totally disagree with you. This is actually the time you do pump money in. Every country in the world will be pumping in money to help airlines. Airlines drive an economy and are part of national security. Post this crisis, many airlines will take time to resume service to India. Air India will actually be key in restoring connectivity of india to the world. It’s more important than ever. That said, it still should be sold. But bailouts have nothing to do with the fact that it is up for sale.

Thats true AI is sort of an indespensable asset esp to Indians in India and Americans of Indian Origin with all the airlines struggling at the moment AI seems to be the ray of hope for our Paternal/Maternal Folks there and our family here are sort of dependent on it,though UA does serve the purpose to quite an extent but its only limited to SFO and EWR so AI is better because AI has best Connectivity to both West Coast and East Coast and its Twice Daily SFO service is great and given the current hit by Chinese Originated Virus In December 19 aka ( COVID 19 ) aka Chinese Wuhan Virus to all private Airlines and imagine if in the absence of AI, UA Cancels its flights to India then we are done like quite Literally DONE !

It would be an additional advantage to have direct flights from DEL to down south to DFW or IAH though..I knw AA is commencing ops to BLR frm SEA but I hope AI connects more American Cities directly to DEL.

For now its just comforting to know that if UA by some reason suspends ops then at least we have AI to lean on to..Phewww !

BawliBooch · Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:48 am

edealinfo wrote:
This is the perfect time to shut down Air India which will help the other carriers to perhaps survive without a bailout. The air India employees that volunteered to do the rescue flights could be transferred to Air India Express (which the government should retain) so they can keep their jobs.

Yes! Air India is the reason that the Indian economy is in the toilet. Air India is the reason unemployment is at a 48 year old high. Air India's slots and other assets should be handed over to Dear Leader's cronies so that India can become Great Again! :roll:

So lets shut down Air India and create yet another problem just to demonstrate strong action! Remember Demonetization? Like that!

pune wrote:
unnayan wrote:
Moving an air force station may not be as straight forward as it seems. There are associated infrastructures too such as schools, living quarters, permiter security, hangars etc...

that is also true, not to forget hospitals as well. Usually a cantonment area is self-sufficient with all its needs. I am guessing the Air force stations would be modeled on similar ways.

There are hospitals, schools etc in Nashik as well. The Air Force Base can shift if they want. The blockage is the Army's Southern Command which is based in Pune and the 35 year old dream of "integrated ops" between Airforce and Army.

BawliBooch · Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:08 am

Since we are on the topic of Air India disinvestment, I am willing to bet my Gun Kit that the Govt intends to continue being a player in Indian aviation after selling off Air India. The aim is not to exit the Airline business but to distribute Air India's assets to cronies. The model being used is the same that was once used in neighboring Sri Lanka - anyone remember the Mihin Lanka story? Like that! Their president is a good friend of your Modi-Shah!

Even if Air India Express is sold off in this lot (to SpiceJet), the Alliance Air AOC will still be in Govt hands. AFAIK, the ATR fleet, 4 A319's and 4 A320's along with 3 77W's will be held back under the Alliance Air AOC even after sale along with AI Engineering. This could be the base for a new state owned carrier, perhaps under the old Indian Airlines brand? The old Air India assets can be parceled out piecemeal to Dear leader's cronies. Europe/Far East/NA slots to Vistara, AIX to SpiceJet and so on.

I know Modi-Shah's SOP well. They have tried these sort of stunts before. Privatize profitable state assets to cronies and nationalize the losses. Google GSPCL.

So to all the privatization prophets on this forum - the Indian govt is not going to exit the Airline business. Air India will be sold off in pieces to cronies, but the govt will continue to be a player in Civil Aviation in a new avatar.

AirIndia · Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:40 am

BawliBooch wrote:
This could be the base for a new state owned carrier, perhaps under the old Indian Airlines brand? .

hmm.... IC your point sir!

trinidadeG · Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:53 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
COVID19 is a great excuse for the government to shut down AI pending its sale. There is no point in endlessly pumping taxpayer money into the carrier while it awaits a buyer.
Once the airline has been sold, the buyer can resume operations.

Totally disagree with you. This is actually the time you do pump money in. Every country in the world will be pumping in money to help airlines. Airlines drive an economy and are part of national security. Post this crisis, many airlines will take time to resume service to India. Air India will actually be key in restoring connectivity of india to the world. It’s more important than ever. That said, it still should be sold. But bailouts have nothing to do with the fact that it is up for sale.

Sure, airlines do drive an economy, but Air India's share in the domestic market is in the minority now. So, the Government helping Air India does not amount to it "helping" the airline industry.

Even in the international 'connectivity' theatre, AI only connects Delhi to the rest of the world, with a smattering of routes from BOM and other cities. Most of the 'connectivity comes from foreign carriers to many more Indian cities. Its a small player even in that space.

I feel we are giving too much importance to the role that AI's North American/European operations play in the grand scheme of things.

trinidadeG · Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:58 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unnayan wrote:

Scale down yes . Shut down no... domestic prices are high due to panic buying

Besides if anything, now is when AI proved its value

Proved its value? This makes no sense. US and other nations use charter flights to bring their citizens back home. They don’t buy or operate an entire airline to bring back stranded citizens.

This is the perfect time to shut down Air India which will help the other carriers to perhaps survive without a bailout. The air India employees that volunteered to do the rescue flights could be transferred to Air India Express (which the government should retain) so they can keep their jobs.

The government can then auction Air India slots . It should go to the highest bidder who can operate the slots from an Indian destination to the foreign one. This will prevent foreign carriers from gobbling Air India’s LHR slots. Finally, the Government could also package the slots with equipment and employees. For instance, Air India’s LHR slot package for auction could be bundled with X planes and Y employees.

The coronovirus situation is a perfect excuse to make the drastic changes that would otherwise by politically insurmountable.

Great plan - lets add to unemployment during this. All airlines are going to need a bailout. Watch what other countries are doing to understand basic economic theory. We all think AI is run super poorly but it still serves a purpose to the indian economy contrary to what people on this forum say

Yes, all airlines need a bailout, all jobs need to be saved. but the government will only bail out AI and save those jobs, sadly. Others will be left to die. Like Jet Airways.

trinidadeG · Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:04 am

A point to be noted at this moment is that GoAir has cancelled all international ops and asked part of its staff to go on un-paid leave to tackle demand issues arising from the COVID19 crisis. Other private airlines are likely to follow suit, according to some on twitter.

What has Air India done?? The pilots wrote the government requesting for more funds.

sabby · Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:06 am

Interesting to see that KLM are still operating to BOM & BLR, Virgin and BA are still operating to BOM & DEL. LH group and AF have stopped flights to India.

FligtReporter · Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:48 am

As long as Indians and Americans of Indian Origin are connected to India and US with a reliable Direct airlines..I dont think I really care if the Airline still happens to be Air India or Bhartiya Udan Khatola Airlines As long as we are connected to our loved ones its all Good...Now presently its AI for future its Govt's headache !

FligtReporter · Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:36 am

A UA 789 is enroute DEL from HOUSTON any idea anyone what is this all about ??

I was just talkin about UA connectivity and Praising AI for theirs and wishing them start flights to DFW and IAH and as i look up at the radar BAYM.!! There is a UA 789 coming to Del from IAH

FLIGHT INFO -:

Aircraft 78-9
Registration N29968
UAL104D
Origin IAH
Destination DEL
Time Taken 14 Hours

VTORD · Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:35 am

FligtReporter wrote:
A UA 789 is enroute DEL from HOUSTON any idea anyone what is this all about ??

I was just talkin about UA connectivity and Praising AI for theirs and wishing them start flights to DFW and IAH and as i look up at the radar BAYM.!! There is a UA 789 coming to Del from IAH

FLIGHT INFO -:

Aircraft 78-9
Registration N29968
UAL104D
Origin IAH
Destination DEL
Time Taken 14 Hours

UA104 is the regular flight number for the SFO-DEL flight. Looks like there is some diversion/special ops being run here with the D. Interestingly FR24 shows that N29968 is scheduled to operate UA105 back to SFO at the regular time
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n29968

But Flight Aware shows that it is scheduled for a 6:00PM ish departure to EWR.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29968

Looks like a UA might be adjusting some capacity here.

Could you dial down your enthusiasm a little bit here? It is quite clear that at this time UA is very unlikely to spring a last minute surprise route from the southern United States.

VTORD · Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:39 am

sabby wrote:
Interesting to see that KLM are still operating to BOM & BLR, Virgin and BA are still operating to BOM & DEL. LH group and AF have stopped flights to India.

When the VS cuts go into place, 1xDEL will remain and BOM will be stopped. But I could not find this explicitly mentioned in any of the news stories about the VS cuts. This was from one particular twitter account which is usually quite knowledgeable.

FligtReporter · Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:52 am

VTORD wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
A UA 789 is enroute DEL from HOUSTON any idea anyone what is this all about ??

I was just talkin about UA connectivity and Praising AI for theirs and wishing them start flights to DFW and IAH and as i look up at the radar BAYM.!! There is a UA 789 coming to Del from IAH

FLIGHT INFO -:

Aircraft 78-9
Registration N29968
UAL104D
Origin IAH
Destination DEL
Time Taken 14 Hours

UA104 is the regular flight number for the SFO-DEL flight. Looks like there is some diversion/special ops being run here with the D. Interestingly FR24 shows that N29968 is scheduled to operate UA105 back to SFO at the regular time
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n29968

But Flight Aware shows that it is scheduled for a 6:00PM ish departure to EWR.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29968

Looks like a UA might be adjusting some capacity here.

Could you dial down your enthusiasm a little bit here? It is quite clear that at this time UA is very unlikely to spring a last minute surprise route from the southern United States.

Well isnt that obvious ! Im certain that given the Chinese Wuhan Virus devastating the aviation industry world wide it is indeed very unlikely for any airline to announce any new routes which..Its a wish that I have for AI or other carier to have a direct connectivity with the Southern US,ain nufin wrong with that is it ?

dtw2hyd · Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:05 pm

It appears there are 250+ Indians with COVID-19 in Iran. When can we expect Vistara to pick them up? Or they have to settle for AI or Mahan.

FligtReporter · Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
It appears there are 250+ Indians with COVID-19 in Iran. When can we expect Vistara to pick them up? Or they have to settle for AI or Mahan.

I say gov should shut AI today itself and Then reoperate when everything is fine..Our brave Indians in Iran with Positive Chinese Wuhan Virus till then must stay safe and Stay indoors and enjoy their stay in Iran and keep praying to recover cause most likely they will..Or better Indian Gov should send in the food items there and a note reassuring them for return flight when They get Negative certificates ..Simple !

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