Who is to say that this is not a "government-to-government" deal between India and Indonesia?!! It's no secret that the Government of India is desperately trying to sell the Flag carrier, and an additional six slots (even if they're leased) at HEATHROW will surely sweeten the deal for the airline's prospective buyers..

But yeah, let's not waste an opportunity to push the tired, old "789 baking in the sun" theory...

trinidadeG wrote:

Who is to say that this is not a "government-to-government" deal between India and Indonesia?!! It's no secret that the Government of India is desperately trying to sell the Flag carrier, and an additional six slots (even if they're leased) at HEATHROW will surely sweeten the deal for the airline's prospective buyers..

Could be. One however wonders what the relations are between the two countries. On the other thread over this topic, one user mentions something about a possibility of it being linked to palm oil trade. India did put lot of restrictions on palm oil imports from Malaysia recently, and naturally Indonesia is the other major producer. So could be some deal there also.

edealinfo wrote:

https://simpleflying.com/garuda-air-india-heathrow-slot-lease/

It is a shame that the geniuses at Air Vistara didn't pick these up. Air India pulled the rug from under Vistara's feet. Now Vistara has a brand new 787 that will be baking under the sun for months on end.

Vistara is presumably trying to get some market share using its Tata connections. How would 3 times a week help with that effort? It might be better to try Stanstead with a daily instead of 3X a week to Heathrow.

Even from BOM to be taken seriously, I would suppose it will need a 2X (ideally 3X) daily.

FligtReporter wrote:

Seems like IndiGo is the only one that will survive the Chinese Virus as per bloomberg Id also add AI to the list being GOI Sweetheart ofcorse !

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... llion-blow

With all the business that will require bailout on the other side of this crisis, can the GoI afford to save Air India? I'm serious. The lockdowns will task India's reserves.

Lightsaber

trinidadeG wrote:

But yeah, let's not waste an opportunity to push the tired, old "789 baking in the sun" theory...

You mean it's finally flying on a regular basis?

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

But yeah, let's not waste an opportunity to push the tired, old "789 baking in the sun" theory...

You mean it's finally flying on a regular basis?

umm .. maybe you haven't noticed that, at the moment, nothing is

SpiceJet pilot, who did not fly overseas this month, tests positive for coronavirus

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/spi ... 45593.html

vadodara wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

https://simpleflying.com/garuda-air-india-heathrow-slot-lease/

It is a shame that the geniuses at Air Vistara didn't pick these up. Air India pulled the rug from under Vistara's feet. Now Vistara has a brand new 787 that will be baking under the sun for months on end.

Vistara is presumably trying to get some market share using its Tata connections. How would 3 times a week help with that effort? It might be better to try Stanstead with a daily instead of 3X a week to Heathrow.

Even from BOM to be taken seriously, I would suppose it will need a 2X (ideally 3X) daily.

Absolutely.
Flying ONLY thrice weekly on BOM-LHR makes no sense to any new operator, let alone Vistara. It works out quite different for an airline (AI, BA) that already has a daily presence at LHR.

Also, as someone mentioned on the other thread, these slot timings aren't great either...not sure why Vistara would be interested in them.

With all the airlines having shut down their ops and inevitably difficult + costly air travel as a harsh future I wonder if the Indian aviation would ever be the same ?

Gone will be the days when I used to see SV 333s with Thai Smile,flydubai,Oman air daily at my base and now I fear it would be too long before my base be granted with such gracious variety of Airlines and Aircrafts again,a disasterous scenario for our country's aviation sector..Hope we shall overcome this soon

FligtReporter wrote:

With all the airlines having shut down their ops and inevitably difficult + costly air travel as a harsh future I wonder if the Indian aviation would ever be the same ?

Gone will be the days when I used to see SV 333s with Thai Smile,flydubai,Oman air daily at my base and now I fear it would be too long before my base be granted with such gracious variety of Airlines and Aircrafts again,a disasterous scenario for our country's aviation sector..Hope we shall overcome this soon

I think Indian aviation will be fine (unless things get crazy bad in india - right now india is actually doing really well and Indians are listening to the govt more than they are here in the US). India’s main advantage is that intl traffic, as a percentage, is not as dependent on foreign tourists (meaning non Indian origin foreign tourists) than many big countries. Those flights to the gulf are filled by Indians (workers and india based flyers). So I think things will bounce back fine. Also Indian travel is really focused on key areas like US, EU, SEA. It is almost a much easier map to get things back. Look for unusual flights to get cut back the world over as travel works to get to normal. Do I think India-UK and US will bounce back quickly - YES. Also my family still expects to go to BOM for our annual Xmas trip. That said, if India loses it or the world still can’t control the virus (or no cure), we will cancel. That is not our expectation today,

Rishul93 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

But yeah, let's not waste an opportunity to push the tired, old "789 baking in the sun" theory...

You mean it's finally flying on a regular basis?

umm .. maybe you haven't noticed that, at the moment, nothing is

It was a rhetorical question. I was questioning someone challenging my statement of Vistara's 787 "baking under the sun" -- caronavirus or not, that was what I said would happen for at least for few months as the geniuses at Vistara have no clue what they are doing.

I had also called for Vistara to defer delivery of their 787 #3 through #6 aircraft. Let's hope they took my advice. I would also call for Vistara to defer their #2 aircraft but it might be too late at this time since it already undergoing test flights. If they can defer #2, then they should as well.

avier wrote:

SpiceJet pilot, who did not fly overseas this month, tests positive for coronavirus

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/spi ... 45593.html

he might have caught it from a fellow pilot that did but who did not exhibit symptoms (asymptomatic spread).

trinidadeG wrote:

Also, as someone mentioned on the other thread, these slot timings aren't great either...not sure why Vistara would be interested in them.

You mean , for O & D, flying out of India at the middle of the night (which is standard for international travel) is a better option?

lightsaber wrote:

FligtReporter wrote:

Seems like IndiGo is the only one that will survive the Chinese Virus as per bloomberg Id also add AI to the list being GOI Sweetheart ofcorse !

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... llion-blow

With all the business that will require bailout on the other side of this crisis, can the GoI afford to save Air India? I'm serious. The lockdowns will task India's reserves.

Lightsaber

Was true 20 yrs ago; today AI is 20% market share.
The rest of the 80% pay for AI follies.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

FligtReporter wrote:

With all the airlines having shut down their ops and inevitably difficult + costly air travel as a harsh future I wonder if the Indian aviation would ever be the same ?

Gone will be the days when I used to see SV 333s with Thai Smile,flydubai,Oman air daily at my base and now I fear it would be too long before my base be granted with such gracious variety of Airlines and Aircrafts again,a disasterous scenario for our country's aviation sector..Hope we shall overcome this soon

I think Indian aviation will be fine (unless things get crazy bad in india - right now india is actually doing really well and Indians are listening to the govt more than they are here in the US). India’s main advantage is that intl traffic, as a percentage, is not as dependent on foreign tourists (meaning non Indian origin foreign tourists) than many big countries. Those flights to the gulf are filled by Indians (workers and india based flyers). So I think things will bounce back fine. Also Indian travel is really focused on key areas like US, EU, SEA. It is almost a much easier map to get things back. Look for unusual flights to get cut back the world over as travel works to get to normal. Do I think India-UK and US will bounce back quickly - YES. Also my family still expects to go to BOM for our annual Xmas trip. That said, if India loses it or the world still can’t control the virus (or no cure), we will cancel. That is not our expectation today,

Hope everything gets back to normal and your trip here comes true..Also by some reason or the other you choose to fly to SFO from DEL then lemme know I will spot your plane cause usually DEL SFO flies over my base in the summers.

FligtReporter wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

FligtReporter wrote:

With all the airlines having shut down their ops and inevitably difficult + costly air travel as a harsh future I wonder if the Indian aviation would ever be the same ?

Gone will be the days when I used to see SV 333s with Thai Smile,flydubai,Oman air daily at my base and now I fear it would be too long before my base be granted with such gracious variety of Airlines and Aircrafts again,a disasterous scenario for our country's aviation sector..Hope we shall overcome this soon

I think Indian aviation will be fine (unless things get crazy bad in india - right now india is actually doing really well and Indians are listening to the govt more than they are here in the US). India’s main advantage is that intl traffic, as a percentage, is not as dependent on foreign tourists (meaning non Indian origin foreign tourists) than many big countries. Those flights to the gulf are filled by Indians (workers and india based flyers). So I think things will bounce back fine. Also Indian travel is really focused on key areas like US, EU, SEA. It is almost a much easier map to get things back. Look for unusual flights to get cut back the world over as travel works to get to normal. Do I think India-UK and US will bounce back quickly - YES. Also my family still expects to go to BOM for our annual Xmas trip. That said, if India loses it or the world still can’t control the virus (or no cure), we will cancel. That is not our expectation today,

Hope everything gets back to normal and your trip here comes true..Also by some reason or the other you choose to fly to SFO from DEL then lemme know I will spot your plane cause usually DEL SFO flies over my base in the summers.

He lives in Manhattan and will most probably fly DL JFK BOM .

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Also, as someone mentioned on the other thread, these slot timings aren't great either...not sure why Vistara would be interested in them.

You mean , for O & D, flying out of India at the middle of the night (which is standard for international travel) is a better option?

Flying out of India in the "middle of the night" may not be the best option for all O/D pax, but neither is flying out in the afternoon.

At its peak, Jet airways flew the BOM-LHR sector thrice daily, with the flights nicely spread out through-out the day, meant to serve multiple 'niche' traveller segments at BOM as well as at LHR.
The VFR O/D pax originating at BOM, preferred the morning (9AM) departure of 9W116 (the one they added in 2017), landing at LHR in the middle of the day. Post 9Ws collapse, AI131, operating on similar timings, up gauged to a B777 to serve this market.

9W120, with a "middle of the night" departure from BOM was favourite option for the Business/Executive/corporate O/D pax who wanted to land in LHR in the early morning so as to squeeze-in a full day of work in London.

9W's third daily flight 9W118/117, was an afternoon departure from BOM that landed at LHR in the evening. This flight wasn't a hot favourite on the BOM-LHR leg among O/D pax (especially after 116 was launched). The return LHR-BOM flight, however, was sought-after by pax looking to head back to BOM after a days-worth of work in London!

AI129/128, the flight proposed to be operated using GA's slots, will operate on timings similar to 9w118/117. (and nicely complement AI131/130)

It doesn't take a 'genius' to see that GA's slot-pair by itself won't be enough for an airline to appeal to Mumbai based O/D pax. At thrice weekly, its even worse!!

Which is why I mentioned in my post (the part that you conveniently left out in your quote) that these timings aren't the best for new entrants like Vistara.

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

But yeah, let's not waste an opportunity to push the tired, old "789 baking in the sun" theory...

You mean it's finally flying on a regular basis?

Of course it would be - They'd still be flying BOM-DEL (and more routes) if not for the nationwide groundings because of COVID19.

Looking forward to more "rhetoric questions, "read-between-the-line" statements, "news posts without sources" and other "Masala-content" from you.

@trinidadeG what's O/D ?

pune wrote:

@trinidadeG what's O/D ?

Origin-Destination.
Referring to that section of traffic whose itineraries originate or terminate (in this case) in Mumbai/ London. As opposed to people using the flight to connect onwards at either end (like NAG-BOM-LHR or BOM-LHR-DUB).

trinidadeG wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Also, as someone mentioned on the other thread, these slot timings aren't great either...not sure why Vistara would be interested in them.

You mean , for O & D, flying out of India at the middle of the night (which is standard for international travel) is a better option?

Flying out of India in the "middle of the night" may not be the best option for all O/D pax, but neither is flying out in the afternoon.

At its peak, Jet airways flew the BOM-LHR sector thrice daily, with the flights nicely spread out through-out the day, meant to serve multiple 'niche' traveller segments at BOM as well as at LHR.
The VFR O/D pax originating at BOM, preferred the morning (9AM) departure of 9W116 (the one they added in 2017), landing at LHR in the middle of the day. Post 9Ws collapse, AI131, operating on similar timings, up gauged to a B777 to serve this market.

9W120, with a "middle of the night" departure from BOM was favourite option for the Business/Executive/corporate O/D pax who wanted to land in LHR in the early morning so as to squeeze-in a full day of work in London.

9W's third daily flight 9W118/117, was an afternoon departure from BOM that landed at LHR in the evening. This flight wasn't a hot favourite on the BOM-LHR leg among O/D pax (especially after 116 was launched). The return LHR-BOM flight, however, was sought-after by pax looking to head back to BOM after a days-worth of work in London!

AI129/128, the flight proposed to be operated using GA's slots, will operate on timings similar to 9w118/117. (and nicely complement AI131/130)

It doesn't take a 'genius' to see that GA's slot-pair by itself won't be enough for an airline to appeal to Mumbai based O/D pax. At thrice weekly, its even worse!!

Which is why I mentioned in my post (the part that you conveniently left out in your quote) that these timings aren't the best for new entrants like Vistara.

You conveniently forget that British Airways and Vistara have agreed to a two way code share on flights between India and UK once Vistara starts flights to UK. So, a potential Vistara 3 weekly flight to LHR (on Garuda’s slots) would have complemented BA flights to India, Allowing use of their single 787 instead of it baking under sun or running a 2 hour flight (BOM to Del) which clearly isn’t what the aircraft was intended for.

So, now that we've moved goal-posts and are discussing Vistara's relationship with British Airways, why would Vistara pitch for slots with lousy LHR timings from Garuda, when BA now has truckloads of slots at LHR and can very well lease some prime-time ones to Vistara to "complement" their own BOM operations??

It still seems like you have an axe to grind with Vistara, whichever way one looks at it!

trinidadeG wrote:

So, now that we've moved goal-posts and are discussing Vistara's relationship with British Airways, why would Vistara pitch for slots with lousy LHR timings from Garuda, when BA now has truckloads of slots at LHR and can very well lease some prime-time ones to Vistara to "complement" their own BOM operations??

It still seems like you have an axe to grind with Vistara, whichever way one looks at it!

1. I haven't changed goal posts. You said that a 3x week doesn't make sense for an airline unless it already operates flights on the route and uses the 3X to buffer its services. I said that with the code share with British Airways, Visatra would essentially be leveraging the same to effectively get the same benefit. It is a much better solution for its sole 897 which is now baking under the sun or, your alternate of running it on the DEL to BOM route, where no doubt, its IFE. lie flat seats, etc., will be royally thrashed.

2. BA has not agreed to lease any of its prime slots to Vistara and never will. Why on earth would BA gift a prime time slot that is valued between $35 to $70 million?

3. I want Vistara to be a world class airline or at least come close to Jet, in its heyday. But, it won't with its current geniuses in its fleet planning and route scheduling department.

want Vistara to be a world class airline or at least come close to Jet, in its heyday. But, it won't with its current geniuses in its fleet planning and route scheduling department

You might want to get educated about the recent history of airlines like EK or SQ as to how they started.

Buying 3 LHR slots a day right off the bat is hardly a strategy for success. Even 9W’s preudo-successful flights did not ensure its survival.

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

So, now that we've moved goal-posts and are discussing Vistara's relationship with British Airways, why would Vistara pitch for slots with lousy LHR timings from Garuda, when BA now has truckloads of slots at LHR and can very well lease some prime-time ones to Vistara to "complement" their own BOM operations??

It still seems like you have an axe to grind with Vistara, whichever way one looks at it!

1. I haven't changed goal posts. You said that a 3x week doesn't make sense for an airline unless it already operates flights on the route and uses the 3X to buffer its services. I said that with the code share with British Airways, Visatra would essentially be leveraging the same to effectively get the same benefit. It is a much better solution for its sole 897 which is now baking under the sun or, your alternate of running it on the DEL to BOM route, where no doubt, its IFE. lie flat seats, etc., will be royally thrashed.

2. BA has not agreed to lease any of its prime slots to Vistara and never will. Why on earth would BA gift a prime time slot that is valued between $35 to $70 million?

3. I want Vistara to be a world class airline or at least come close to Jet, in its heyday. But, it won't with its current geniuses in its fleet planning and route scheduling department.

Ofcourse you've been moving goal-posts. Long before other members (apart from me) pointed out (on this thread and the other) that 3 weekly on evening LHR departures wasn't much value to Vistara, you went on to shame Vistara for not taking slots from GA. This, with no PROOF that GA had actually placed them in the open market, and that other airlines were able to bid for them. THEN when you were called out, you went on to admit that this was a Government to Government deal by editing your post on the other 'dedicated' thread!!
When the discussion on that thread didn't go your way, you came back here to ask me if other timings were suited to O/D passengers!!

THEN when I pointed out how airlines - past and present - actually used other BOM-LHR timings to serve the O/D market, YOU brought in British Airways' arrangement with Vistara!!! no-one else has mentioned it in this discussion before.

According to YOU, this arrangement between the two airlines is important enough to make Vistara cough up money take up those 3 useless pairs of slots but not important enough for BA to arrange to lease to Vistara?? No gifts, just a simple commercial lease agreement.

There's money to be made flying people between India and the UK (esp in premium classes), might as well cough up money for LHR slots. Just plain business, at the end of the day.... No silly, thrice-weekly flights on ill-timed slots that won't appeal to Business persons.

trinidadeG wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Also, as someone mentioned on the other thread, these slot timings aren't great either...not sure why Vistara would be interested in them.

You mean , for O & D, flying out of India at the middle of the night (which is standard for international travel) is a better option?

Flying out of India in the "middle of the night" may not be the best option for all O/D pax, but neither is flying out in the afternoon.

At its peak, Jet airways flew the BOM-LHR sector thrice daily, with the flights nicely spread out through-out the day, meant to serve multiple 'niche' traveller segments at BOM as well as at LHR.
The VFR O/D pax originating at BOM, preferred the morning (9AM) departure of 9W116 (the one they added in 2017), landing at LHR in the middle of the day. Post 9Ws collapse, AI131, operating on similar timings, up gauged to a B777 to serve this market.

9W120, with a "middle of the night" departure from BOM was favourite option for the Business/Executive/corporate O/D pax who wanted to land in LHR in the early morning so as to squeeze-in a full day of work in London.

9W's third daily flight 9W118/117, was an afternoon departure from BOM that landed at LHR in the evening. This flight wasn't a hot favourite on the BOM-LHR leg among O/D pax (especially after 116 was launched). The return LHR-BOM flight, however, was sought-after by pax looking to head back to BOM after a days-worth of work in London!

AI129/128, the flight proposed to be operated using GA's slots, will operate on timings similar to 9w118/117. (and nicely complement AI131/130)

It doesn't take a 'genius' to see that GA's slot-pair by itself won't be enough for an airline to appeal to Mumbai based O/D pax. At thrice weekly, its even worse!!

Which is why I mentioned in my post (the part that you conveniently left out in your quote) that these timings aren't the best for new entrants like Vistara.

Sorry I disagree with you. Both VS and BA have said that London O&D prefer the 9pm departure from LHR flight. So it is not a garbage slot for India. The bigger negative of that slot is that it doesn’t connect with NA flights other than NYC, YYZ, BOS and I think IAD. VS has always maintained the same slot for DEL (because DEL-LHR is a big O&D flight). Also VS just moved their BOM flight to the 9pm departure from LHR (instead of 10am LHR-BOM). The are deemphasizing NA connecting pax because of DL’s new JFK-BOM nonstop (so shift of focus from NA connecting to LON O&D). Finally the 9am BOM-LHR Jet flight’s slots came from VS (yes you heard right). If that was the goldmine Jet flight, VS could have flown the route themselves. Even BA is not flying LHR-BOM 9am daily (they did add that flight post Jet). I fly BOM-LHR twice a year and loved Jet’s 3X timings (I used different flights for different directions). In general I HATE leaving BOM at 3am but love the option. I loved the 9am BOM departure because it got me to London in time for Happy Hour. My mom hated the 3am and 9am as they were too early. She loves the 2pm as she is not rushed in the am. To each their own. UK would be so lucky to get 9pm LHR slots. They would grab it in a second. So sorry, I will have to disagree with your premise that they are crap.

trinidadeG wrote:

.

1. Long before other members (apart from me) pointed out (on this thread and the other) that 3 weekly on evening LHR departures wasn't much value to Vistara,.....

2. you went on to shame Vistara for not taking slots from GA.

3. you went on to admit that this was a Government to Government deal!

4. YOU brought in British Airways' arrangement with Vistara!!! no-one else has mentioned it in this discussion before.

5. No silly, thrice-weekly flights on ill-timed slots that won't appeal to Business persons.

Response to above....

1. I disagree with your contention or characterization of not much value.

2. I stand by it. If Air India could pull it off so could Vistara.

3. I literally made that up. I was speculating. I read about the increased palm oil purchases through Indonesia and read that Garuda leased LHR slots to Air India, put 2 + 2 together and probably came up with 22 and threw out my theory out there saying specifically I was speculating. Now, you are making it sound like it is a fact. If it is, God bless my speculating ability!

4. Of course I brought up the BA deal with UK on code shares . And, why wouldn't I? I only got round to thinking of that when you said the 3X would only benefit existing carriers. It then got me thinking that UK through their code share deal with UK, when allowed to fly international, could pretty much accomplish what you said they couldn't.

5. You are missing the point, ENTIRELY. Even though Vistara hypothetically would only be operating 3X, with BA's flights combined, they would be offering even more choice to travelers, including the business folk who like options with flight-timings!

You have, unfortunately, not stated a better use for the 787; baking under Delhi's sun or running 1 round-trip a day on DEL - BOM, isn't a a better alternative.

CaliguyNYC wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

You mean , for O & D, flying out of India at the middle of the night (which is standard for international travel) is a better option?

Flying out of India in the "middle of the night" may not be the best option for all O/D pax, but neither is flying out in the afternoon.

At its peak, Jet airways flew the BOM-LHR sector thrice daily, with the flights nicely spread out through-out the day, meant to serve multiple 'niche' traveller segments at BOM as well as at LHR.
The VFR O/D pax originating at BOM, preferred the morning (9AM) departure of 9W116 (the one they added in 2017), landing at LHR in the middle of the day. Post 9Ws collapse, AI131, operating on similar timings, up gauged to a B777 to serve this market.

9W120, with a "middle of the night" departure from BOM was favourite option for the Business/Executive/corporate O/D pax who wanted to land in LHR in the early morning so as to squeeze-in a full day of work in London.

9W's third daily flight 9W118/117, was an afternoon departure from BOM that landed at LHR in the evening. This flight wasn't a hot favourite on the BOM-LHR leg among O/D pax (especially after 116 was launched). The return LHR-BOM flight, however, was sought-after by pax looking to head back to BOM after a days-worth of work in London!

AI129/128, the flight proposed to be operated using GA's slots, will operate on timings similar to 9w118/117. (and nicely complement AI131/130)

It doesn't take a 'genius' to see that GA's slot-pair by itself won't be enough for an airline to appeal to Mumbai based O/D pax. At thrice weekly, its even worse!!

Which is why I mentioned in my post (the part that you conveniently left out in your quote) that these timings aren't the best for new entrants like Vistara.

Sorry I disagree with you. Both VS and BA have said that London O&D prefer the 9pm departure from LHR flight. So it is not a garbage slot for India. The bigger negative of that slot is that it doesn’t connect with NA flights other than NYC, YYZ, BOS and I think IAD. VS has always maintained the same slot for DEL (because DEL-LHR is a big O&D flight). Also VS just moved their BOM flight to the 9pm departure from LHR (instead of 10am LHR-BOM). The are deemphasizing NA connecting pax because of DL’s new JFK-BOM nonstop (so shift of focus from NA connecting to LON O&D). Finally the 9am BOM-LHR Jet flight’s slots came from VS (yes you heard right). If that was the goldmine Jet flight, VS could have flown the route themselves. Even BA is not flying LHR-BOM 9am daily (they did add that flight post Jet). I fly BOM-LHR twice a year and loved Jet’s 3X timings (I used different flights for different directions). In general I HATE leaving BOM at 3am but love the option. I loved the 9am BOM departure because it got me to London in time for Happy Hour. My mom hated the 3am and 9am as they were too early. She loves the 2pm as she is not rushed in the am. To each their own. UK would be so lucky to get 9pm LHR slots. They would grab it in a second. So sorry, I will have to disagree with your premise that they are crap.

Feel free to disagree . edealinfo mentioned "better, and everyone has their own idea of 'better'. But, i think you're not really disagreeing with me here. Your points are absolutely valid because you're talking of London based airlines and their O&D. edealinfo wasn't.

Slot timings that are perfectly okay for the network-needs of a UK-based carrier are not necessarily so for that of an India-based carrier, especially IF that Indian carrier was focusing on O&D (which is what Mr. Edealinfo wanted to argue about) AND if it were to be their only pair of flights AND if they were to be 3 weekly. Which is all I've been saying all along.

I've clearly stated in my post that other Indian airlines were ( 9W) and will be (AI) able to find takers for flights on the GA slot timings because they already operate other flights on the route. Thanks.

edealinfo wrote:

I disagree with your contention or characterization of not much value.

Ofcourse you will.

I literally made that up. I was speculating.

Okay. Keep it up then.

Your responses have been noted. Thanks.

trinidadeG wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

I disagree with your contention or characterization of not much value.

Ofcourse you will.

You have, unfortunately, not stated a better use for the 787; baking under Delhi's sun or running 1 round-trip a day on DEL - BOM, isn't a better alternative.

I see you have avoided answering the question, repeatedly. I wonder why, hmmmm.

Ms. Edealinfo.

trinidadeG wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

trinidadeG wrote:

Flying out of India in the "middle of the night" may not be the best option for all O/D pax, but neither is flying out in the afternoon.

At its peak, Jet airways flew the BOM-LHR sector thrice daily, with the flights nicely spread out through-out the day, meant to serve multiple 'niche' traveller segments at BOM as well as at LHR.
The VFR O/D pax originating at BOM, preferred the morning (9AM) departure of 9W116 (the one they added in 2017), landing at LHR in the middle of the day. Post 9Ws collapse, AI131, operating on similar timings, up gauged to a B777 to serve this market.

9W120, with a "middle of the night" departure from BOM was favourite option for the Business/Executive/corporate O/D pax who wanted to land in LHR in the early morning so as to squeeze-in a full day of work in London.

9W's third daily flight 9W118/117, was an afternoon departure from BOM that landed at LHR in the evening. This flight wasn't a hot favourite on the BOM-LHR leg among O/D pax (especially after 116 was launched). The return LHR-BOM flight, however, was sought-after by pax looking to head back to BOM after a days-worth of work in London!

AI129/128, the flight proposed to be operated using GA's slots, will operate on timings similar to 9w118/117. (and nicely complement AI131/130)

It doesn't take a 'genius' to see that GA's slot-pair by itself won't be enough for an airline to appeal to Mumbai based O/D pax. At thrice weekly, its even worse!!

Which is why I mentioned in my post (the part that you conveniently left out in your quote) that these timings aren't the best for new entrants like Vistara.

Sorry I disagree with you. Both VS and BA have said that London O&D prefer the 9pm departure from LHR flight. So it is not a garbage slot for India. The bigger negative of that slot is that it doesn’t connect with NA flights other than NYC, YYZ, BOS and I think IAD. VS has always maintained the same slot for DEL (because DEL-LHR is a big O&D flight). Also VS just moved their BOM flight to the 9pm departure from LHR (instead of 10am LHR-BOM). The are deemphasizing NA connecting pax because of DL’s new JFK-BOM nonstop (so shift of focus from NA connecting to LON O&D). Finally the 9am BOM-LHR Jet flight’s slots came from VS (yes you heard right). If that was the goldmine Jet flight, VS could have flown the route themselves. Even BA is not flying LHR-BOM 9am daily (they did add that flight post Jet). I fly BOM-LHR twice a year and loved Jet’s 3X timings (I used different flights for different directions). In general I HATE leaving BOM at 3am but love the option. I loved the 9am BOM departure because it got me to London in time for Happy Hour. My mom hated the 3am and 9am as they were too early. She loves the 2pm as she is not rushed in the am. To each their own. UK would be so lucky to get 9pm LHR slots. They would grab it in a second. So sorry, I will have to disagree with your premise that they are crap.

Feel free to disagree . edealinfo mentioned "better, and everyone has their own idea of 'better'. But, i think you're not really disagreeing with me here. Your points are absolutely valid because you're talking of London based airlines and their O&D. edealinfo wasn't.

Slot timings that are perfectly okay for the network-needs of a UK-based carrier are not necessarily so for that of an India-based carrier, especially IF that Indian carrier was focusing on O&D (which is what Mr. Edealinfo wanted to argue about) AND if it were to be their only pair of flights AND if they were to be 3 weekly. Which is all I've been saying all along.

I've clearly stated in my post that other Indian airlines were ( 9W) and will be (AI) able to find takers for flights on the GA slot timings because they already operate other flights on the route. Thanks.

Why do you feel the timings do not work for India based but work for London based. They are perfect for India based. AI has put in to have the timings changed to a 9 pm or so (back to GA’s original times) departure from London and a 1-2pm departure from BOM. This will allow AI to bring in pax from all over India To BOM, allow people from Pune and the surrounding BOM region to drive in. Also a 11am arrival into BOM will also allow connections to all of India and let people who need taxis and buses or trains not have to wait until the morning (some people won’t do long distance taxis at 3am). I’m sorry but other than you saying the slots suck, you haven’t really given any proof. Btw AI’s current BOM flight leaves at 7am (nothing really AI could do since these are slot timings that allowed the LHR-ORD flight). It is way too early for BOM pax and allows for basically zero connecting pax. So if you want the worst time, that 7am should win.

Tata's faced with "Sophie's Choice" on Vistara and Air Asia India.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/co ... 99633.html

Sophie’s Choice is the title of a 1979 novel by William Styron, about a Polish woman in a Nazi concentration camp who is forced to decide which of her two children will live and which will die. (Meryl Streep nabbed an Oscar for her starring role in the 1982 film version.) Now, the phrase has become shorthand for a terrible choice between two difficult options

edealinfo wrote:

Tata's faced with "Sophie's Choice" on Vistara and Air Asia India.

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/co ... 99633.html

Sophie’s Choice is the title of a 1979 novel by William Styron, about a Polish woman in a Nazi concentration camp who is forced to decide which of her two children will live and which will die. (Meryl Streep nabbed an Oscar for her starring role in the 1982 film version.) Now, the phrase has become shorthand for a terrible choice between two difficult options

I say think out of the box. Just merge Air Asia India into Vistara with the Tata's. Singapore Airlines can buy out Air Asia's 49% so post merger the Enlarged Vistara would still be 51% Tata and 49% Singapore Air.

If Singapore Air pays Air Asia's parent what it invested in Air Asia India they will be willing to sell even without a premium given the challenging times and need to raise cash. The Air Asia planes can be repainted as Vistara, get Vistara branding and service inside out, and operate in an all economy mode. Vistara will thus acquire an additional hub at BLR, and the combined entity will represent 15 - 17% of India's aviation market. It is a much better solution for now than to bid for Air India which will likely collapse on its won.

Note that Air Asia India will never get permission to fly internationally, so this is the perfect time for merger.

edealinfo wrote:

If Singapore Air pays Air Asia's parent what it invested in Air Asia India they will be willing to sell even without a premium given the challenging times and need to raise cash. The Air Asia planes can be repainted as Vistara, get Vistara branding and service inside out, and operate in an all economy mode. Vistara will thus acquire an additional hub at BLR, and the combined entity will represent 15 - 17% of India's aviation market. It is a much better solution for now than to bid for Air India which will likely collapse on its won.

Note that Air Asia India will never get permission to fly internationally, so this is the perfect time for merger.

Indians should stop fantasizing that other sovereign funds are going to save Indian carriers.

I had no idea there were so many Germans in India.

https://www.aviationindia.net/2020/03/a ... ts-in.html

dtw2hyd wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

If Singapore Air pays Air Asia's parent what it invested in Air Asia India they will be willing to sell even without a premium given the challenging times and need to raise cash. The Air Asia planes can be repainted as Vistara, get Vistara branding and service inside out, and operate in an all economy mode. Vistara will thus acquire an additional hub at BLR, and the combined entity will represent 15 - 17% of India's aviation market. It is a much better solution for now than to bid for Air India which will likely collapse on its won.

Note that Air Asia India will never get permission to fly internationally, so this is the perfect time for merger.

Indians should stop fantasizing that other sovereign funds are going to save Indian carriers.

Who said charity work? What I had suggested was a business opportunity to strengthen Vistara's position in India. With 6% - 7% market share, how do you expect Vistara on its own to compete AND survive? It is a far better opportunity to take over Air Asia than to take over Air India.( Singapore Air was considering Air India along with the Tatas). If Air India is worth considering, why not merge Air Asia into Vistara (a better alternative)? Tatas own 51% in both airlines and Singapore Airlines would probably have less concerns in investing in Air Asia India than it does with the colossal Air India which would be filled with humongous uncertainties, potential staff problems, and political machinations.

dtw2hyd wrote:

Indians should stop fantasizing that other sovereign funds are going to save Indian carriers.

So, here are the possibilities for the Tatas and their partners:

1. Operate Vistara and Air Asia separately -- 2 weak airlines and both destined to never make profits. Charity work is through Tata Trust not through Tata Sons (the holding company of the airlines).

2. Operate Vistara and allow Air Asia India to collapse -- lose 6 years of hard work on one airline and the associated investment; and operate a weak airline with just 7% market share

3. Let Air Asia collapse and have Vistara and take over Air India -- lose 6 years of hard work on one airline and the associated investment; create a big airline out of Vistara and Air India and set yourself for a spectacular collapse

4. Merge Air Asia India into Vistara -- acquire 15% to 17% market share immediately; get BLR as a hub; get critical mass to sustain operations as an airline in India.

5. Let Air Asia India and Vistara both collapse -- let Ratan Tata's dream of owning an airline die, invite the ire of thousands of employees, ruin Tata's good name, have banks and taxpayers blame them for losses.

I suggested #4. Do you have a better option?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Why do you feel the timings do not work for India based but work for London based. They are perfect for India based. AI has put in to have the timings changed to a 9 pm or so (back to GA’s original times) departure from London and a 1-2pm departure from BOM. This will allow AI to bring in pax from all over India To BOM, allow people from Pune and the surrounding BOM region to drive in. Also a 11am arrival into BOM will also allow connections to all of India and let people who need taxis and buses or trains not have to wait until the morning (some people won’t do long distance taxis at 3am). I’m sorry but other than you saying the slots suck, you haven’t really given any proof. Btw AI’s current BOM flight leaves at 7am (nothing really AI could do since these are slot timings that allowed the LHR-ORD flight). It is way too early for BOM pax and allows for basically zero connecting pax. So if you want the worst time, that 7am should win.

"Garbage slot", "not working for India", "slots suck" - These are certainly NOT my words. Its sad that you choose to use such generalisations in your replies.
Having being around this august aviation forum a long time, i've come to understand that airport slots are 'tools'. Tools that different airlines choose to use differently in order to further their own network goals. The network goals of VS and BA are quite different from that of AI and UK. I've never said AI cannot make good use of GA's slots. I'm afraid you are merely misreading my replies to Mr. edealinfo!!

I like how this thread is getting tangled up in the hot mess of "speculations" "hyperbole" "masala content" and "reading between the lines". all because someone has an axe to grind with Vistara.

edealinfo wrote:

dtw2hyd wrote:

Indians should stop fantasizing that other sovereign funds are going to save Indian carriers.

I suggested #4. Do you have a better option?

I admire you getting into nitty-gritty to make at least one option work for India and/or Indian carriers.

Here are the fundamental issues you are ignoring.
25+ years into privatization ask the simple question, do foreign airlines want an Indian carrier to prosper?

There is no evidence, all these seem to be trojan horse investments/partnerships to control from within so their own airlines never get affected.
EY-9W, 9W turned into a feeder.
Air Asia(Bhd)-AAI - Slow growth and handed down planes at higher lease rates.
SIA-UK - Very limited investment.
SkyTeam-9W - This was one case where Delta saw 9W's potential but didn't work out because 9W was in way deep.
TK-6E- Bilateral issues
EK-SG - Not enough data
QR-6E - Not enough data

You show me one example where a foreign airline invested in full faith to make an Indian carrier a real global player. None.

Now, all the majors are in survival mode, they are least worried about saving Indian carrier.

Stop thinking that if we shut down AI/UK/I5, Singapore Girl will come with a suitcase full of dollars to make UK a global carrier.

trinidadeG wrote:

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Why do you feel the timings do not work for India based but work for London based. They are perfect for India based. AI has put in to have the timings changed to a 9 pm or so (back to GA’s original times) departure from London and a 1-2pm departure from BOM. This will allow AI to bring in pax from all over India To BOM, allow people from Pune and the surrounding BOM region to drive in. Also a 11am arrival into BOM will also allow connections to all of India and let people who need taxis and buses or trains not have to wait until the morning (some people won’t do long distance taxis at 3am). I’m sorry but other than you saying the slots suck, you haven’t really given any proof. Btw AI’s current BOM flight leaves at 7am (nothing really AI could do since these are slot timings that allowed the LHR-ORD flight). It is way too early for BOM pax and allows for basically zero connecting pax. So if you want the worst time, that 7am should win.

"Garbage slot", "not working for India", "slots suck" - These are certainly NOT my words. Its sad that you choose to use such generalisations in your replies.
Having being around this august aviation forum a long time, i've come to understand that airport slots are 'tools'. Tools that different airlines choose to use differently in order to further their own network goals. The network goals of VS and BA are quite different from that of AI and UK. I've never said AI cannot make good use of GA's slots. I'm afraid you are merely misreading my replies to Mr. edealinfo!!

I like how this thread is getting tangled up in the hot mess of "speculations" "hyperbole" "masala content" and "reading between the lines". all because someone has an axe to grind with Vistara.

Look I have no idea about the other discussion with edealinfo. I’m just responding to the crux of your argument (and notice no quotes) that a night departure from LHR works for BA/VS but not for Indian carriers. That was it. You say BA and VS are network carriers but VS/BAs night departure from LHR to both BOM and DEL really don’t connect to their respective networks,. Those flights exist solely for O&D while the 10am departures from LHR are basically for NA connections. Finally the night departure from LHR actually does connect to domestic networks both ways in india and are ideal for both connections and O&D. Leaving aside language and edealinfo, I’ll ask again, why do you feel these slots are not suited for AI and other indian carriers?

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Look I have no idea about the other discussion with edealinfo. I’m just responding to the crux of your argument (and notice no quotes) that a night departure from LHR works for BA/VS but not for Indian carriers. That was it. You say BA and VS are network carriers but VS/BAs night departure from LHR to both BOM and DEL really don’t connect to their respective networks,. Those flights exist solely for O&D while the 10am departures from LHR are basically for NA connections. Finally the night departure from LHR actually does connect to domestic networks both ways in india and are ideal for both connections and O&D. Leaving aside language and edealinfo, I’ll ask again, why do you feel these slots are not suited for AI and other indian carriers?

Please don't feign it. Your reply to me included the very discussion that I speak of!
I'm sorry I cannot answer your questions if you are unwilling to consider the context of the discussion you chose to jump into.

I have never specifically said anything about the unsuitability of the slots for AI. The discussion was about Vistara.

EMIRATES WLL OPERATE PASSENGER FREIGHTER OPS (Belly cargo).TO 7 INDIAN CITIES wef 31/03/20, using Boeing 777-300ER aircraft.



LINK: https://www.skycargo.com/services-alerts/

BLR Airport satellite image as of 29/03/2020 at 0545 UTC. (Sorry I did try to get a more HD pic from the source but I have limited access)



DELHI IGIA as of 30/03/2020 at 0545HRS UTC


For MUMBAI, Im still awaiting latest Satellite pic I have SAT image for 28/03/2020. Will post once I get for 29th or 30th March. Iif you want such satellite iamges for any other Indian airports, let me know. I shall post it....

sand26391 wrote:

Iif you want such satellite iamges for any other Indian airports, let me know. I shall post it....

Pls post an image of MAA...looking at pictures taken on the ground, I can count 50+ grounded aircraft. Thanks

sand26391 wrote:

EMIRATES WLL OPERATE PASSENGER FREIGHTER OPS (Belly cargo).TO 7 INDIAN CITIES wef 31/03/20, using Boeing 777-300ER aircraft.

LINK: https://www.skycargo.com/services-alerts/

Interesting that only CCU doesn't get a passenger freighter.

sand26391 wrote:

Iif you want such satellite iamges for any other Indian airports, let me know. I shall post it....

Thank you for the updates. I Would appreciate sat imagery for the Navi Mumbai airport construction site if possible.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

UN's trade body, however, did not give a detailed explanation as to why and how India and China will be the exceptions as the world faces a recession and loss in global income that will impact developing countries. Further, given the deteriorating global conditions, fiscal and foreign exchange constraints are bound to tighten further over the course of the year.

The world economy will go into recession this year with a predicted loss of trillions of dollars of global income due to the coronavirus pandemic, spelling serious trouble for developing countries with the likely exception of India and China, according to a latest UN trade report.


tough time for business especially aviation.Many small carriers would have it difficult to maintain their feet.

CPS001 awaiting MAA airport SAT image, unfortunately the image I have has a few clouds covering the airport on 29 & 28th March. Will update once I get a clear image, thanks.

VTORD I wonder why they are not operating to CCU.

@TrinidadeG Navi Mumbai airport site as of 23/03/2020

Per fr24, I saw couple of AI WB's depart back to back around late morning/noon. I spotted about 3 77W and 3 787 I think. Most are heading Europe, and 1-2 of those to DEL. From DEL one went onwards to EU. I believe these were mostly the German evacuations, heading to Frankfurt. Can't find any news links on it yet.

Please continue discussion in Indian Aviation Thread - April 2020

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1443801&p=22124349#p22124349