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MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:44 pm

marcelh wrote:
BS. The manufacturer sets the bar. Boeing didn't mention MCAS to the pilots, joked about requests of some silly 3rd world customers about simulator training and didn't tell the FAA that MCAS didn't work exactly as they were told before.....


Set the bar. :shakehead: The only way for your statement to be true is if the manufacturer is also the regulator. And the you immediately go into a non sequitor. Yeah, let's talk about BS.
 
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piedmontf284000
Posts: 468
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:20 pm

House investigation officially declare what was pretty much already known about the MAX design. Given the state of the airline industry right now, I think most airlines could care less if it flies again this year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/house-i ... rency.html
 
marcelh
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:33 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
marcelh wrote:
BS. The manufacturer sets the bar. Boeing didn't mention MCAS to the pilots, joked about requests of some silly 3rd world customers about simulator training and didn't tell the FAA that MCAS didn't work exactly as they were told before.....


Set the bar. :shakehead: The only way for your statement to be true is if the manufacturer is also the regulator. And the you immediately go into a non sequitor. Yeah, let's talk about BS.


Well, Boeing was in facto also the regulator....
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:00 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
House investigation officially declare what was pretty much already known about the MAX design. Given the state of the airline industry right now, I think most airlines could care less if it flies again this year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/house-i ... rency.html

Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

House summary:
'....The Committee’s investigation, as detailed in the preliminary findings, focuses on five main areas:
Production pressures on Boeing employees that jeopardized aviation safety;
Boeing’s faulty assumptions about critical technologies, most notably regarding the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS;
Boeing’s concealment of crucial information from the FAA, its customers, and pilots;
Inherent conflicts of interest among authorized representatives, or ARs, who are Boeing employees authorized to perform certification work on behalf of the FAA; and
Boeing’s influence over the FAA’s oversight that resulted in FAA management rejecting safety concerns raised by the agency’s own technical experts at the behest of Boeing......'

Ray
 
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PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:25 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

Can't use the links.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24589
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:25 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
House investigation officially declare what was pretty much already known about the MAX design. Given the state of the airline industry right now, I think most airlines could care less if it flies again this year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/house-i ... rency.html

Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

House summary:
'....The Committee’s investigation, as detailed in the preliminary findings, focuses on five main areas:
Production pressures on Boeing employees that jeopardized aviation safety;
Boeing’s faulty assumptions about critical technologies, most notably regarding the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS;
Boeing’s concealment of crucial information from the FAA, its customers, and pilots;
Inherent conflicts of interest among authorized representatives, or ARs, who are Boeing employees authorized to perform certification work on behalf of the FAA; and
Boeing’s influence over the FAA’s oversight that resulted in FAA management rejecting safety concerns raised by the agency’s own technical experts at the behest of Boeing......'

Ray

Actions speak louder than words.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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bgm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:49 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
marcelh wrote:
BS. The manufacturer sets the bar. Boeing didn't mention MCAS to the pilots, joked about requests of some silly 3rd world customers about simulator training and didn't tell the FAA that MCAS didn't work exactly as they were told before.....


Set the bar. :shakehead: The only way for your statement to be true is if the manufacturer is also the regulator. And the you immediately go into a non sequitor. Yeah, let's talk about BS.


Ask yourself this: how much of the FAA oversight was delegated to Boeing?
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:08 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

Can't use the links.

https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

If still no go, go in at the link below and select investigations to pick up the press release and the report is linked from there.

https://transportation.house.gov/commit ... e-aircraft

Ray
 
macc
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:57 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

Can't use the links.

https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

If still no go, go in at the link below and select investigations to pick up the press release and the report is linked from there.

https://transportation.house.gov/commit ... e-aircraft

Ray


That sums up pretty well. Now, aside that I think Boeing needs to be fined for violations of several FAA regulations, and for deceiving an authority, I believe the FAA itself will also be up for some compensation towards victims families.

On a more global perspective, could this not be seen as unfair competition to other manufacturers? not having to comply with modern regulations, avoiding simulator training by deception has given Boeing the ability to be much cheaper than competitors. And I would see that going beyond only Airbus.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:18 pm

macc wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Can't use the links.

https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

If still no go, go in at the link below and select investigations to pick up the press release and the report is linked from there.

https://transportation.house.gov/commit ... e-aircraft

Ray


That sums up pretty well. Now, aside that I think Boeing needs to be fined for violations of several FAA regulations, and for deceiving an authority, I believe the FAA itself will also be up for some compensation towards victims families.

On a more global perspective, could this not be seen as unfair competition to other manufacturers? not having to comply with modern regulations, avoiding simulator training by deception has given Boeing the ability to be much cheaper than competitors. And I would see that going beyond only Airbus.


I can pretty much guarantee you that the FAA/US government will not be compensating anybody.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:26 pm

marcelh wrote:
Well, Boeing was in facto also the regulator....


They are no way, shape, or form the regulator. They may be given some responsibility by the regulator, but they are not the regulator with ultimate authority.

bgm wrote:
Ask yourself this: how much of the FAA oversight was delegated to Boeing?


Doesn't matter. Who's the regulator? Who's in charge?
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:56 pm

FAA has fined Boeing $19.68 million :eek:

“WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Federal Aviation Administration on Friday proposed fining Boeing Co (BA.N) $19.7 million for allegedly installing equipment on hundreds of 737 aircraft containing sensors in heads-up displays that regulators had not approved for use.

The FAA alleges that between June 2015 and April 2019, Boeing installed Rockwell Collins Head-up Guidance Systems on 791 jetliners, including 618 Boeing 737 NGs and 173 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft.”

Is this new? Unapproved sensors.. I thought most of the dirty laundry was out there.. seems never ending

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN20T2VL
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:07 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Well, Boeing was in facto also the regulator....


They are no way, shape, or form the regulator. They may be given some responsibility by the regulator, but they are not the regulator with ultimate authority.


“Some” responsibillity is the understatement of the year. And yes, formally the FAA is the ultimate authority, but there was a reason Boeing had “some” responsibillity. And they messed up big time because of some $$$.
A nice example of corporate greed and a government which doesn’t take their responsibility.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:57 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
Press release and report can be seen here. (hopefully mods will not delete this reference post as they did Calhoun NYT interview).
https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

Can't use the links.

https://transportation.house.gov/news/p ... -findings-
https://transportation.house.gov/imo/me ... 202020.pdf

If still no go, go in at the link below and select investigations to pick up the press release and the report is linked from there.

https://transportation.house.gov/commit ... e-aircraft

Ray


While I'm glad DeFazio is acknowledging the problems in the certification process, there still needs to be some accounting for Boeing executives' decision to ship the plane, knowing they were putting people's lives at risk. Shipping the plane before it's ready is a form of intent to do harm. The certification process is intended to catch that kind of problem, but we can't depend on it entirely. The best way to nip the Max problem in the bud now and for the future is to put these executives in jail. This is a scandal. Nothing else.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24589
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:12 am

marcelh wrote:
“Some” responsibillity is the understatement of the year. And yes, formally the FAA is the ultimate authority, but there was a reason Boeing had “some” responsibillity. And they messed up big time because of some $$$.
A nice example of corporate greed and a government which doesn’t take their responsibility.

It's the same-old same-old. Big corporations lobby to undermine budgets for basic research, science, and regulatory authorities (going back to at least the Reagan administration in the US) then the same corporations hide their mistakes by blaming the regulators and scientists.

In this case we have proof from Boeing itself of its employees gleeful about how they've deceived the regulators, and long email chains where they come up with a strategy to position MCAS as an amendment rather than a new feature, with no one objecting to any of it. They've brought this tragedy on to themselves, IMO.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:12 am

marcelh wrote:

“Some” responsibillity is the understatement of the year. And yes, formally the FAA is the ultimate authority, but there was a reason Boeing had “some” responsibillity. And they messed up big time because of some $$$.
A nice example of corporate greed and a government which doesn’t take their responsibility.

So can we expect a suit at the UN or world court against the US government for crimes against humanity, or is it ok to only blame Boeing versus including those in the swamp in Washington? We know they had no choice but to accept bribes etc. as integrity is not expected.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:33 am

sgrow787 wrote:
While I'm glad DeFazio is acknowledging the problems in the certification process, there still needs to be some accounting for Boeing executives' decision to ship the plane, knowing they were putting people's lives at risk. Shipping the plane before it's ready is a form of intent to do harm. The certification process is intended to catch that kind of problem, but we can't depend on it entirely. The best way to nip the Max problem in the bud now and for the future is to put these executives in jail. This is a scandal. Nothing else.

Calhoun has been pretty good at scapegoating Mark Forkner and the "three second guy". The House testimony was a made for TV moment. The rats in Congress were more interested in questioning Muilenberg about his salary and bonus package rather than trying to figure out how far the conspiracy to deceive the FAA and hold the no sim training line at all costs went. Forkner has lawyered up. I wonder if even a DoJ grant of immunity would get him to talk, but it seems he's the key to unraveling the story. Surely he's following someone else's dictates with regard to holding the line at no sim training.

Just last month we had https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/busi ... ation.html so we know the DoJ isn't done investigating.

As above, IMO the House thing is just showmanship. I'll take it seriously when the sitting president (whomever that is) signs a FAA reform bill into law.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:10 am

Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
While I'm glad DeFazio is acknowledging the problems in the certification process, there still needs to be some accounting for Boeing executives' decision to ship the plane, knowing they were putting people's lives at risk. Shipping the plane before it's ready is a form of intent to do harm. The certification process is intended to catch that kind of problem, but we can't depend on it entirely. The best way to nip the Max problem in the bud now and for the future is to put these executives in jail. This is a scandal. Nothing else.

Calhoun has been pretty good at scapegoating Mark Forkner and the "three second guy". The House testimony was a made for TV moment. The rats in Congress were more interested in questioning Muilenberg about his salary and bonus package rather than trying to figure out how far the conspiracy to deceive the FAA and hold the no sim training line at all costs went. Forkner has lawyered up. I wonder if even a DoJ grant of immunity would get him to talk, but it seems he's the key to unraveling the story. Surely he's following someone else's dictates with regard to holding the line at no sim training.

Just last month we had https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/busi ... ation.html so we know the DoJ isn't done investigating.

As above, IMO the House thing is just showmanship. I'll take it seriously when the sitting president (whomever that is) signs a FAA reform bill into law.


Certainly Mr Forkner could be the string that unravels the scandal. When I mean by Boeing "knowing they were putting people's lives at risk":
(1) The pilot performance assumptions were manufactured out of thin air - (a) they knew they needed a two sensor solution but somehow ended up with a one sensor solution, and (b) the difficulty in getting a two sensor solution AFTER the crashes, especially when the difference is onside vs offside data collection, is evidenced by the year plus it's taking.
(2) The concealment of the the 4x authority change of MCAS from the FAA
(3) The concealment of existence of MCAS from the pilots - 1000s of them - via a request to remove it from the pilot FCOM, effectively reducing the pool of people in the know to a handful of Boeing and FAA execs and employees.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:27 am

Boeing stock has dropped about 40% in the last year. I hope none of you got in before the 2nd crash.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:52 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
While I'm glad DeFazio is acknowledging the problems in the certification process, there still needs to be some accounting for Boeing executives' decision to ship the plane, knowing they were putting people's lives at risk. Shipping the plane before it's ready is a form of intent to do harm. The certification process is intended to catch that kind of problem, but we can't depend on it entirely. The best way to nip the Max problem in the bud now and for the future is to put these executives in jail. This is a scandal. Nothing else.

Calhoun has been pretty good at scapegoating Mark Forkner and the "three second guy". The House testimony was a made for TV moment. The rats in Congress were more interested in questioning Muilenberg about his salary and bonus package rather than trying to figure out how far the conspiracy to deceive the FAA and hold the no sim training line at all costs went. Forkner has lawyered up. I wonder if even a DoJ grant of immunity would get him to talk, but it seems he's the key to unraveling the story. Surely he's following someone else's dictates with regard to holding the line at no sim training.

Just last month we had https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/busi ... ation.html so we know the DoJ isn't done investigating.

As above, IMO the House thing is just showmanship. I'll take it seriously when the sitting president (whomever that is) signs a FAA reform bill into law.


Certainly Mr Forkner could be the string that unravels the scandal. When I mean by Boeing "knowing they were putting people's lives at risk":
(1) The pilot performance assumptions were manufactured out of thin air - (a) they knew they needed a two sensor solution but somehow ended up with a one sensor solution, and (b) the difficulty in getting a two sensor solution AFTER the crashes, especially when the difference is onside vs offside data collection, is evidenced by the year plus it's taking.
(2) The concealment of the the 4x authority change of MCAS from the FAA
(3) The concealment of existence of MCAS from the pilots - 1000s of them - via a request to remove it from the pilot FCOM, effectively reducing the pool of people in the know to a handful of Boeing and FAA execs and employees.

(4) Concealing the impact of an AOA disagree on the operation of the FCC - an operable AOA disagree light would have demanded a checklist in the FCOM that describes how it may impact MCAS operation (eg a AOA disagree event with repetitive nose down cycles with full authority, resulting in the only remedy being to disable via stab cutouts); the fact that Boeing made it an option that had to be purchased separately points to motivation Boeing didn't want customers having the option; the fact that the AOA disagree was still inoperable (due to a programming bug) after operators paid for the option, and Boeing failed to tell the operators about the bug, points to the same.
(5) The trajectory of the Max program and where they needed it to be to meet schedule - (a) the true trajectory was a year plus to solve the dual AOA sensor issue, and (b) there's an odd coincidence in somehow meeting the deadline while at the same time permitting epic failures in engineering judgement and decision making.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:57 am

"Ethiopian draft report blames Boeing for 737 MAX plane crash: sources"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN20U069

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A draft interim report from Ethiopian crash investigators circulated to U.S. government agencies concludes the March 2019 crash of a Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 MAX was caused by the plane's design, two people briefed on the matter said Friday."

So this week .. Boeing fined by the FAA for fitting unapproved sensors and now this.. the new Boeing CEO must be wondering why he took the job.

Only progress seems to be that the MAX10 is edging towards its first flight.. although I do wonder why anyone would order it as it appears to be a tailstrike waiting to happen. Will interesting to see how the new main landing gear works in practice.
 
marcelh
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:23 am

par13del wrote:
marcelh wrote:

“Some” responsibillity is the understatement of the year. And yes, formally the FAA is the ultimate authority, but there was a reason Boeing had “some” responsibillity. And they messed up big time because of some $$$.
A nice example of corporate greed and a government which doesn’t take their responsibility.

So can we expect a suit at the UN or world court against the US government for crimes against humanity, or is it ok to only blame Boeing versus including those in the swamp in Washington? We know they had no choice but to accept bribes etc. as integrity is not expected.

I don’t think a suit will change anything and US government don’t accept anything from UN or world courts. The only way to change this kind of behavior is from the inside and that won’t happen. It has already become “business as usual” and Boeing was unlucky to be caught with the pants down. So something had to be done, but only after it became clear they couldn’t cover it up.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:31 am

flyingphil wrote:
"Ethiopian draft report blames Boeing for 737 MAX plane crash: sources"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN20U069

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A draft interim report from Ethiopian crash investigators circulated to U.S. government agencies concludes the March 2019 crash of a Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 MAX was caused by the plane's design, two people briefed on the matter said Friday."



Very interesting, the article is on Bloomberg and gives some insight, although not much.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... of-737-max

Boeing Set to Get Blame in Ethiopian Report on Crash of 737 Max

The Ethiopian draft contrasts with conclusions by Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee after a prior 737 Max crash in October 2018. Indonesian investigators cited multiple factors in the accident, including the plane’s design, poor maintenance and the pilots’ actions. Rather than release a full report, the Ethiopian Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau plans to publish an interim update before the anniversary of the March 10, 2019, crash.

A committee of the U.S. Congress released preliminary findings from its investigation on Friday, blasting U.S. regulators and Boeing for a series of design and safety blunders. The 737 Max’s design and development “was marred by technical design failures, lack of transparency with both regulators and customers, and efforts to obfuscate information about the operation of the aircraft,” the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee said in a summary of preliminary findings from its nearly yearlong probe of the aircraft.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:39 am

Here's a link to the Ethiopian Airlines preliminary crash report:

https://flightsafety.org/wp-content/upl ... ET-AVJ.pdf
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
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BoeingVista
Posts: 2060
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:04 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Here's a link to the Ethiopian Airlines preliminary crash report:

https://flightsafety.org/wp-content/upl ... ET-AVJ.pdf


A quick scan of the report shows the pilots were well aware it was a MCAS type failure and did the Boeing mandated motions (more or less) up to and including trim cut out (while the plane was in trim) but speed in the end was what got them into an irrecoverable situation (Airspeed was not mentioned in Boeing MCAS procedure)

Major trouble for Boeing: They tried manual trim wheel but couldn't move it, this will need to be fixed before RTS..

Couldn't manually trim so seems they flipped the trim cut outs back on (without a call out) trimmed electrically ANU once, but then took their eye off the ball ans 5 seconds later MCAS trims down and that was the end.

Went in 40 degrees nose down at 500 knots

So TL;DR Control issue identified, correct actions taken. Aircraft was correctly trimmed before cut outs flipped but rising airspeed put her out of trim again which they could not manually trim out, so they flipped them back on, trimmed aircraft ANU again but then 5s late MCAS grabbed control once more and pilots could not recover.
BV
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:10 am

sgrow787 wrote:
Here's a link to the Ethiopian Airlines preliminary crash report:

https://flightsafety.org/wp-content/upl ... ET-AVJ.pdf


Warning: That report No. AI-01/19 is the one from one year ago, created the April 04 2019 according to the document metadata.

I have a collection of reports I download. To date I have 3 versions of that document:

Created: Thu Apr 4 07:01:14 2019
File size: 2872306
SHA256: 660e3d054a6a529191f92a38eb0f9b347da49ae53dfb219dd3f8b87c0e2f3446

Created: Thu Apr 4 20:16:48 2019
File size: 2752478
SHA256: 792f6306e5f4237ddac175ed267e013385456f27923150d2451b9100cbc3a94f

Created: Thu Apr 4 21:14:30 2019
File size: 2765393
SHA256: 310462387ee7e370a95a90f66785df07923f6dd1ccbe94dc7395db3d8cb0ffae

Aside of the yellow highlights in the last one, there are identical as far as I have observed.
All there text return 629b58905e4d22a67e2ebfd9ddc50b992428541eb00ffd6e6fcd1494fa0bd9af if extracted and hashed with the command:
pdftotext <file> - | sha256sum
Last edited by PixelFlight on Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:39 am

BoeingVista wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
So TL;DR Control issue identified, correct actions taken. Aircraft was correctly trimmed before cut outs flipped but rising airspeed put her out of trim again which they could not manually trim out, so they flipped them back on, trimmed aircraft ANU again but then 5s late MCAS grabbed control once more and pilots could not recover.


so basically what most of you suspected here after the FDR data was known
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:25 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Here's a link to the Ethiopian Airlines preliminary crash report:

https://flightsafety.org/wp-content/upl ... ET-AVJ.pdf


Warning: That report No. AI-01/19 is the one from one year ago, created the April 04 2019 according to the document metadata.

I have a collection of reports I download. To date I have 3 versions of that document:

Created: Thu Apr 4 07:01:14 2019
File size: 2872306
SHA256: 660e3d054a6a529191f92a38eb0f9b347da49ae53dfb219dd3f8b87c0e2f3446

Created: Thu Apr 4 20:16:48 2019
File size: 2752478
SHA256: 792f6306e5f4237ddac175ed267e013385456f27923150d2451b9100cbc3a94f

Created: Thu Apr 4 21:14:30 2019
File size: 2765393
SHA256: 310462387ee7e370a95a90f66785df07923f6dd1ccbe94dc7395db3d8cb0ffae

Aside of the yellow highlights in the last one, there are identical as far as I have observed.
All there text return 629b58905e4d22a67e2ebfd9ddc50b992428541eb00ffd6e6fcd1494fa0bd9af if extracted and hashed with the command:
pdftotext <file> - | sha256sum


Yep, my bad. I was wondering why when I attempted to download it asked me if I wanted to replace the existing copy or not :). Does anyone have the link to the report? thanks
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:35 pm

Volkswagon had to pay 15.6 b usd to settle its pollution scandal in usa . No one was killed in this scandal.
Time for payback .
Indonesia and Ethiopia should demand atleast 30 b usd each for the fraud perpetuated by Boeing resulting in 350 deaths.
Other countries should also demand atleast 10 b each for fraud.
I look at atleast 200 b usd fines for Boeing.
 
upright
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:59 pm

maint123 wrote:
I look at atleast 200 b usd fines for Boeing.

200 b does not even include dumping all approx 800 MAX ever produced, but mostly never sold, refunding airlines fully money being paid already and all losses Boeing will make for years until any 737 substitute is ready to sell instead. I wonder how happy banks will be about it to borrow billions more and more.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:00 pm

Manual trim didn't work, crew tries to go back to electric trim but then MCAS kicks in and kills them. That's terrible.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10350
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:02 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Manual trim didn't work, crew tries to go back to electric trim but then MCAS kicks in and kills them. That's terrible.

Did not know manual trim was also faulty.
 
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PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:44 pm

par13del wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Manual trim didn't work, crew tries to go back to electric trim but then MCAS kicks in and kills them. That's terrible.

Did not know manual trim was also faulty.

This is what happens on a 737 NG and 737 MAX after an extreme misstrim and a STAB TRIM CUTOUT at high speed:
https://youtu.be/aoNOVlxJmow?t=720

I expect the upcoming ET302 report to tell more about this issue.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24589
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:01 pm

maint123 wrote:
Volkswagon had to pay 15.6 b usd to settle its pollution scandal in usa . No one was killed in this scandal.
Time for payback .
Indonesia and Ethiopia should demand atleast 30 b usd each for the fraud perpetuated by Boeing resulting in 350 deaths.
Other countries should also demand atleast 10 b each for fraud.
I look at atleast 200 b usd fines for Boeing.

VW and Boeing situations are not the same.

VW deliberately installed a device that only activated during emissions testing whose sole purpose was to defeat said test. VW signed a specific set of paperwork required by a specific environmental control law that said they did not install this exact type of defeat device, with penalties specified for lying about such defeat devices. VW's executive who signed knew about the defeat device yet still signed. There was a paper trail showing exactly that. The penalty was high but was in accordance to the law.

So far we have no proof that Boeing knew MCAS was faulty. We have proof the deceived customers and regulators with regard to training but we have no statute I know of that covers such deception. We know Boeing categorized MCAS in a way that minimized the required safety analysis and testing work but again I know of no law that breaks. We know they relied too much on the industry standard three second rule, but so far plausible deniability is holding at least in the legal sense.

So, maybe the US House of Representatives should add some very well defined penalties for knowingly lying or deceiving the FAA to this new bill they are writing, but I won't put any faith into it until I see the President's signature on such a law. Till then it's all political theater to me.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:23 pm

par13del wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Manual trim didn't work, crew tries to go back to electric trim but then MCAS kicks in and kills them. That's terrible.

Did not know manual trim was also faulty.

Boeing's design assumptions included “The pilot will take immediate action to reduce or eliminate high control forces by re-trimming or changing configuration or flight conditions.” ( ref: https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 4098081792 ). In essence Boeing's design assumed the pilots will never let the plane get so far out of trim that the manual trim system becomes ineffective. I'm not sure other manual trim systems aren't making the same assumption. There's only so much you can do to help a human re-trim an airplane, and at some combination of airspeed and aircraft configuration humans physically can't generate enough force to retrim. Of course with multiple MCAS activations this is a losing battle, as events sadly proved. Whether the FAA and the rest of the world's regulators allow RTS without a second independent powered trim system has been an open question on this thread for months now. So far we have no evidence to support the idea that RTS is being blocked by a lack of such.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:24 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
Here's a link to the Ethiopian Airlines preliminary crash report:

https://flightsafety.org/wp-content/upl ... ET-AVJ.pdf


A quick scan of the report shows the pilots were well aware it was a MCAS type failure and did the Boeing mandated motions (more or less) up to and including trim cut out (while the plane was in trim) but speed in the end was what got them into an irrecoverable situation (Airspeed was not mentioned in Boeing MCAS procedure)

Major trouble for Boeing: They tried manual trim wheel but couldn't move it, this will need to be fixed before RTS..

Couldn't manually trim so seems they flipped the trim cut outs back on (without a call out) trimmed electrically ANU once, but then took their eye off the ball ans 5 seconds later MCAS trims down and that was the end.

Went in 40 degrees nose down at 500 knots

So TL;DR Control issue identified, correct actions taken. Aircraft was correctly trimmed before cut outs flipped but rising airspeed put her out of trim again which they could not manually trim out, so they flipped them back on, trimmed aircraft ANU again but then 5s late MCAS grabbed control once more and pilots could not recover.


You are reading and drawing conclusions from the preliminary report that was released a year ago. This is not the draft interim report referred to by the Bloomberg article.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24589
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:02 pm

With regard to manual trim, https://twitter.com/Satcom_Guru/status/ ... 6622727168 is a tweet from Peter Lemme (Satcom Guru), someone well known from 737 MAX reporting:

Saying every system on the airplane must be fail-safe, that the pilot is not part of the response to failure and malfunction, is much bigger than voting sensor inputs.
Pilots should be accountable for airspeed and altitude.
Pilots should be accountable to mode display.


Given the context ( the Turkish 2009 737 crash ) I think he's saying no matter what the pilots needs to keep track of airspeed, altitude, and the current autopilot mode(s) the plane is in (so they can know what the plane will handle and what they must handle).

It'd be nice if the industry had some standard definition of what pilots are responsible/accountable for, and something more specific than they must be able to deal with any combination of events instantaneously or within three seconds or within twelve seconds.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
kayik
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Volkswagon had to pay 15.6 b usd to settle its pollution scandal in usa . No one was killed in this scandal.
Time for payback .
Indonesia and Ethiopia should demand atleast 30 b usd each for the fraud perpetuated by Boeing resulting in 350 deaths.
Other countries should also demand atleast 10 b each for fraud.
I look at atleast 200 b usd fines for Boeing.

VW and Boeing situations are not the same.

VW deliberately installed a device that only activated during emissions testing whose sole purpose was to defeat said test. VW signed a specific set of paperwork required by a specific environmental control law that said they did not install this exact type of defeat device, with penalties specified for lying about such defeat devices. VW's executive who signed knew about the defeat device yet still signed. There was a paper trail showing exactly that. The penalty was high but was in accordance to the law.

So far we have no proof that Boeing knew MCAS was faulty. We have proof the deceived customers and regulators with regard to training but we have no statute I know of that covers such deception. We know Boeing categorized MCAS in a way that minimized the required safety analysis and testing work but again I know of no law that breaks. We know they relied too much on the industry standard three second rule, but so far plausible deniability is holding at least in the legal sense.

So, maybe the US House of Representatives should add some very well defined penalties for knowingly lying or deceiving the FAA to this new bill they are writing, but I won't put any faith into it until I see the President's signature on such a law. Till then it's all political theater to me.



IKEA may be good example. They have recently paid $45m for one death because of a collapsing dresser, despite the fact that the product was called in and millions collected. The family was not aware of it, since they did not have cable TV.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
It'd be nice if the industry had some standard definition of what pilots are responsible/accountable for, and something more specific than they must be able to deal with any combination of events instantaneously or within three seconds or within twelve seconds.


The industry is fine. It'd be nice if Boeing used common sense and included sensor redundancy in their designs from the start. Instead they're blaming pilot workload for a crash involving a plane that should've never been certified to begin with, and they're taking everyone down with them in the process. Boeing went from 50 yrs making planes that give pilots full control, to all the sudden the pilots are too dumb to be trusted with vital information on a new system. And what happened in between there is a phone call from American Airlines pressuring them with an imminent order of Airbus A320 Neo's.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 312
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:02 pm

So.. it appears to be bad news month for Boeing.

The respected Dominic Gates from the Seattle Times is now reporting
“FAA Poised to Require Electrical Wiring Fixes Before Boeing 737 MAX Jets Can Fly Again
Agency expected to mandate rerouting of certain wires to comply with longstanding safety regulations”

This does not appear to be a simple job as previous posters have explained.
The Ethiopian crash report seemed to raise issues about the trim wheel being ineffective.

Return to Service seems to be a long way away
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:56 pm

It doesn't look like there will be a revenue flight in 2020 to me. Still too deep in the weeds.
 
beechnut
Posts: 933
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:56 am

flyingphil wrote:
Return to Service seems to be a long way away


If ever.

At what point do airlines bail? Air Canada is on record saying that their contingency measures will only work until the end of this year. After that it's a completely new scenario. I'm sure that the phone lines between Montréal and Toulouse have been quite active lately.

A rumour had an A321LR/XLR and A330N order coming soon. AC has denied that by saying "It's very very premature to suggest that there are discussions between Airbus and Air Canada concerning A321s".

"Premature" doesn't sound like a "no" to me. Rumour has it that June 30 is the point at which a decision has to be made.

And have Boeing actually submitted an MCAS fix yet? And have they come clean on the raw aerodynamic behaviour of the aircraft without MCAS? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Beech
 
TaromA380
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:35 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:57 am

When the Max was first “certified”, I imagine all the managers involved got a nice bonus for achievement.

Today, when the total loss induced by their achievement seems to rise somewhere into uncertainty at 50 billions dollars and possibly more, what can Boeing do with these individuals that almost buried the whole company? Can Boeing ask its money back and compensations from them, is it possible to fine the culprits?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:25 am

flyingphil wrote:
So.. it appears to be bad news month for Boeing.

The respected Dominic Gates from the Seattle Times is now reporting
“FAA Poised to Require Electrical Wiring Fixes Before Boeing 737 MAX Jets Can Fly Again
Agency expected to mandate rerouting of certain wires to comply with longstanding safety regulations”

This does not appear to be a simple job as previous posters have explained.
The Ethiopian crash report seemed to raise issues about the trim wheel being ineffective.

Return to Service seems to be a long way away



https://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-poised ... _lead_pos4
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:31 am

If the same wiring issue exists in NG , then should it really be a blocker for Max's RTS? Somehow, that doesn't seem right to me. It could be fixed with an AD, giving it 6-12 months to retrofit all Maxs.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:36 am

blrsea wrote:
If the same wiring issue exists in NG , then should it really be a blocker for Max's RTS? Somehow, that doesn't seem right to me. It could be fixed with an AD, giving it 6-12 months to retrofit all Maxs.


The NG isn't grounded...the MAX is. Doesn't look like RTS will be this year then?
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:39 am

flyingphil wrote:
So.. it appears to be bad news month for Boeing.

The respected Dominic Gates from the Seattle Times is now reporting
“FAA Poised to Require Electrical Wiring Fixes Before Boeing 737 MAX Jets Can Fly Again
Agency expected to mandate rerouting of certain wires to comply with longstanding safety regulations”

This does not appear to be a simple job as previous posters have explained.
The Ethiopian crash report seemed to raise issues about the trim wheel being ineffective.

Return to Service seems to be a long way away


With the slowdown in air travel for the foreseeable future (6 months +), this will hardly make an impact. Also gives cover to continue working the MCAS issue. Coronavirus might have been the best thing that ever happened for Boeing in this crisis. I don't see Airbus orders going up if air travel is down across the board. Then there's shutdown of aircraft manufacturing plants due to quarantine.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:40 am

Scotron12 wrote:
blrsea wrote:
If the same wiring issue exists in NG , then should it really be a blocker for Max's RTS? Somehow, that doesn't seem right to me. It could be fixed with an AD, giving it 6-12 months to retrofit all Maxs.


The NG isn't grounded...the MAX is. Doesn't look like RTS will be this year then?


Yes, I understand that, but it seems a bit of an overkill to force all Max to have wiring upgraded before RTS, while there are thousands of NGs flying fine. Doesn't look like an impending doom. They can go in parallel, unblock Max RTS, while issuing a global AD for all NGs and Max for rewiring within a reasonable time frame.
 
Scotron12
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:48 am

Well..they could issue an AD for the NG if that is the case of compliance with current regulations. Maybe the MAX is a more sensitive issue and is why they're asking for a fix before RTS.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, March 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:01 am

kayik wrote:
Revelation wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Volkswagon had to pay 15.6 b usd to settle its pollution scandal in usa . No one was killed in this scandal.
Time for payback .
Indonesia and Ethiopia should demand atleast 30 b usd each for the fraud perpetuated by Boeing resulting in 350 deaths.
Other countries should also demand atleast 10 b each for fraud.
I look at atleast 200 b usd fines for Boeing.

VW and Boeing situations are not the same.

VW deliberately installed a device that only activated during emissions testing whose sole purpose was to defeat said test. VW signed a specific set of paperwork required by a specific environmental control law that said they did not install this exact type of defeat device, with penalties specified for lying about such defeat devices. VW's executive who signed knew about the defeat device yet still signed. There was a paper trail showing exactly that. The penalty was high but was in accordance to the law.

So far we have no proof that Boeing knew MCAS was faulty. We have proof the deceived customers and regulators with regard to training but we have no statute I know of that covers such deception. We know Boeing categorized MCAS in a way that minimized the required safety analysis and testing work but again I know of no law that breaks. We know they relied too much on the industry standard three second rule, but so far plausible deniability is holding at least in the legal sense.

So, maybe the US House of Representatives should add some very well defined penalties for knowingly lying or deceiving the FAA to this new bill they are writing, but I won't put any faith into it until I see the President's signature on such a law. Till then it's all political theater to me.



IKEA may be good example. They have recently paid $45m for one death because of a collapsing dresser, despite the fact that the product was called in and millions collected. The family was not aware of it, since they did not have cable TV.

Indian pharmaceutical companies exporting to usa are routinely fined billions for failed inspections of their facilities by US regulators , without any charges of their medicines causing even a single reaction. These I consider non tariff costs on foreign companies by usa.
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