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blacksoviet
Posts: 1637
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:48 am

cedarjet wrote:
Name change was mostly after a run of crashes, but customer experience shortcomings across the board had also harmed the brand.

Btw it was America West that took over USAirways, they went with the USAirways brand because it was more appropriate to a national and transatlantic network carrier. Note the call sign post merger was Cactus (including, famously, Cactus 1549).

Why didn't the FAA allow Parker to keep the Cactus callsign after he took over AA?

Where are the F100s today?
 
D L X
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
UA444 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You could say the same thing for America West (another 9/11 govt loan guarantee recipient) and United (a 3-time loser in the same program).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5316334/ns/bu ... lrcQKhKiUk

Or Continental, who needed two bankruptcies and a strong economy they had no hand in creating to survive

And US Airways was Stephen Wolf’s doing. He wanted a more business like airline and the name change was supposed to reflect that. He also was madly in love with the color grey.


What made him think business travelers would want to fly on his disgusting planes and subpar service? I remember seeing photos posted of filthy furniture in their clubs, mold growing in air vents on the planes, and F seats with tape on them. US Airways was not known for exceptional service. Far from it.

Well, how old are you? Because in the late nineties, US already had set the standard for business travel around the northeast corridor, inherited from Eastern.


chepos wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:


This is correct

The name change coincided with the BA relationship

Why did Donald Carty allow BA to have a relationship with US Air?


British Airways invested in US in 93, they had a transatlantic alliance between the two (before AA). In 96 BA hooked up with AA and went ahead with selling their stake in USAir (resulting in a court battle).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, the answer was that the BA/US alliance came before the BA/AA alliance. The change to US Airways was in part to make people think that US was closer to BA than AA was.


US-BA was the genesis of global alliances.

US WAS THE GENESIS OF GLOBAL ALLIANCES.

In so many ways, US was the most underrated airline in aviation history. Not only did US basically create the 737-300 and 737-400 (they saw what could be improved in the 732 and gave Boeing design ideas), it creates the alliance and the herringbone business class. (Look it up! It wasn’t CP or AA or AC. I’m right!)

I flew AA BOS-LAX in 1998 earning US miles because of the BA-US alliance, which was highly advertised on the east coast.


USAirALB wrote:
D L X wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Why did the HP merger change that plan? They were all Airbus except for a few very old 757.

HP had a LOT of 737s still, and a lot of 757s, and Doug Parker didn’t share the all-Airbus Philosophy.

Also, 9/11 slowed the retirement of 767s, causing US not to pick up all its A330 options. (Which I think we’re eventually converted to A350 options, then ultimately A321s.)

(Imagine a 737-Max style grounding on an airline with only one type.)

Respectfully, I disagree. Prior to the AA merger, US was well on its way to being an all Airbus carrier. The 762s/734s were on their way out, and leaving only the 752s as the only Boeing aircraft. IIRC they would have lasted for quite a while, as I seem to recall hearing that plans were being made internally to refurbish them completely.

I am not so sure about the A330 options. US placed an order for A332s after the merger (and also had options for A340s, not sure what type) almost around the same time as the A350. Originally they were to be the launch carrier for the original A350 (which was basically an A330 Lite) and then were to be the North American launch carrier for the redesigned (today's) A350.


US merged with AA years after it merged with HP. Doug Parker by then had made clear that he didn’t care about being all-Airbus like Wolf had, hence the cessation of getting rid of 757s and 762s, and notably the 734s. The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

As for the 332’s, those were not in the original 1998 order. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... c10851649/

You should snoop around a.net for the timing, but the A332 order came much later, and the A340 was never really an option.

US was the freakin’ launch customer for the A350 until no one else wanted it, and the a350 turned into a much larger plane that US didn’t need.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:20 am

D L X wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Or Continental, who needed two bankruptcies and a strong economy they had no hand in creating to survive

And US Airways was Stephen Wolf’s doing. He wanted a more business like airline and the name change was supposed to reflect that. He also was madly in love with the color grey.


What made him think business travelers would want to fly on his disgusting planes and subpar service? I remember seeing photos posted of filthy furniture in their clubs, mold growing in air vents on the planes, and F seats with tape on them. US Airways was not known for exceptional service. Far from it.

Well, how old are you? Because in the late nineties, US already had set the standard for business travel around the northeast corridor, inherited from Eastern.


chepos wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Why did Donald Carty allow BA to have a relationship with US Air?


British Airways invested in US in 93, they had a transatlantic alliance between the two (before AA). In 96 BA hooked up with AA and went ahead with selling their stake in USAir (resulting in a court battle).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, the answer was that the BA/US alliance came before the BA/AA alliance. The change to US Airways was in part to make people think that US was closer to BA than AA was.


US-BA was the genesis of global alliances.

US WAS THE GENESIS OF GLOBAL ALLIANCES.

In so many ways, US was the most underrated airline in aviation history. Not only did US basically create the 737-300 and 737-400 (they saw what could be improved in the 732 and gave Boeing design ideas), it creates the alliance and the herringbone business class. (Look it up! It wasn’t CP or AA or AC. I’m right!)

I flew AA BOS-LAX in 1998 earning US miles because of the BA-US alliance, which was highly advertised on the east coast.


USAirALB wrote:
D L X wrote:
HP had a LOT of 737s still, and a lot of 757s, and Doug Parker didn’t share the all-Airbus Philosophy.

Also, 9/11 slowed the retirement of 767s, causing US not to pick up all its A330 options. (Which I think we’re eventually converted to A350 options, then ultimately A321s.)

(Imagine a 737-Max style grounding on an airline with only one type.)

Respectfully, I disagree. Prior to the AA merger, US was well on its way to being an all Airbus carrier. The 762s/734s were on their way out, and leaving only the 752s as the only Boeing aircraft. IIRC they would have lasted for quite a while, as I seem to recall hearing that plans were being made internally to refurbish them completely.

I am not so sure about the A330 options. US placed an order for A332s after the merger (and also had options for A340s, not sure what type) almost around the same time as the A350. Originally they were to be the launch carrier for the original A350 (which was basically an A330 Lite) and then were to be the North American launch carrier for the redesigned (today's) A350.


US merged with AA years after it merged with HP. Doug Parker by then had made clear that he didn’t care about being all-Airbus like Wolf had, hence the cessation of getting rid of 757s and 762s, and notably the 734s. The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

As for the 332’s, those were not in the original 1998 order. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... c10851649/

You should snoop around a.net for the timing, but the A332 order came much later, and the A340 was never really an option.

US was the freakin’ launch customer for the A350 until no one else wanted it, and the a350 turned into a much larger plane that US didn’t need.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?


How reliable were the US Air/Piedmont 762s compared to AA’s current 763s?

Considering the MAX crisis, does Doug Parker regret getting rid of them? In 2015 he was still using them to connect CLT with MCO and RSW.
Last edited by blacksoviet on Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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chepos
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:26 am

blacksoviet wrote:
D L X wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

What made him think business travelers would want to fly on his disgusting planes and subpar service? I remember seeing photos posted of filthy furniture in their clubs, mold growing in air vents on the planes, and F seats with tape on them. US Airways was not known for exceptional service. Far from it.

Well, how old are you? Because in the late nineties, US already had set the standard for business travel around the northeast corridor, inherited from Eastern.


chepos wrote:

British Airways invested in US in 93, they had a transatlantic alliance between the two (before AA). In 96 BA hooked up with AA and went ahead with selling their stake in USAir (resulting in a court battle).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, the answer was that the BA/US alliance came before the BA/AA alliance. The change to US Airways was in part to make people think that US was closer to BA than AA was.


US-BA was the genesis of global alliances.

US WAS THE GENESIS OF GLOBAL ALLIANCES.

In so many ways, US was the most underrated airline in aviation history. Not only did US basically create the 737-300 and 737-400 (they saw what could be improved in the 732 and gave Boeing design ideas), it creates the alliance and the herringbone business class. (Look it up! It wasn’t CP or AA or AC. I’m right!)

I flew AA BOS-LAX in 1998 earning US miles because of the BA-US alliance, which was highly advertised on the east coast.


USAirALB wrote:
Respectfully, I disagree. Prior to the AA merger, US was well on its way to being an all Airbus carrier. The 762s/734s were on their way out, and leaving only the 752s as the only Boeing aircraft. IIRC they would have lasted for quite a while, as I seem to recall hearing that plans were being made internally to refurbish them completely.

I am not so sure about the A330 options. US placed an order for A332s after the merger (and also had options for A340s, not sure what type) almost around the same time as the A350. Originally they were to be the launch carrier for the original A350 (which was basically an A330 Lite) and then were to be the North American launch carrier for the redesigned (today's) A350.


US merged with AA years after it merged with HP. Doug Parker by then had made clear that he didn’t care about being all-Airbus like Wolf had, hence the cessation of getting rid of 757s and 762s, and notably the 734s. The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

As for the 332’s, those were not in the original 1998 order. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... c10851649/

You should snoop around a.net for the timing, but the A332 order came much later, and the A340 was never really an option.

US was the freakin’ launch customer for the A350 until no one else wanted it, and the a350 turned into a much larger plane that US didn’t need.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?


How reliable were the US Air/Piedmont 762s compared to AA’s current 763s?

Considering the MAX crisis, does Doug Parker regret getting rid of them?


The 762 was an old and small fleet, I don’t recall the dispatch reliability.

That being said they were gone way before the MAX was ever an issue, not sure they would have been kept around had anyone known the MAX was going to be a lemon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ionosphere
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:51 am

Dominion301 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
USPIT10L wrote:

I was referring specifically to the mainline fleet.

Are you saying that there might have been some polished aluminum Dash 8s flying around in 2008?


The Express fleet in the 90s USAir livery was never in polished silver. Always was in white.

This BEH appears to be the last ever aircraft in service with USAir titles from mid-December 2007:



Maybe it made it to early 2008. Who knows.


I flew an Air Midwest B1900 in the USAir Express colors COU-MCI in January 2008.
 
BAINY3
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:02 am

D L X wrote:

US-BA was the genesis of global alliances.

US WAS THE GENESIS OF GLOBAL ALLIANCES.



NW/KL were before US/BA. The NW/KL tie-up happened around 1989 or 1990.
 
N983AN
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:18 am

There is a former employee and IAM activist who has literally corrected people hundreds of times on another aviation forum for referring to the airline as “USAIR”.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:28 pm

The 762s were real old. They were Piedmont 1980s builds

No way they would be flying today
 
Cointrin330
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:42 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The 762s were real old. They were Piedmont 1980s builds

No way they would be flying today


About half of them were built and delivered to Piedmont in the 1980s for its CLT-FRA and CLT-LGW services. The others were ordered by USAir post merger.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:42 pm

USAir rebranded as USAirways in the late Fall of 1996 and at the same time, placed an order (including options) for 400 Airbus aircraft. The airline nearly filed for Chapter 7 liquidation in 2004 only to be rescued by America West.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:46 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
UA444 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You could say the same thing for America West (another 9/11 govt loan guarantee recipient) and United (a 3-time loser in the same program).

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5316334/ns/bu ... lrcQKhKiUk

Or Continental, who needed two bankruptcies and a strong economy they had no hand in creating to survive

And US Airways was Stephen Wolf’s doing. He wanted a more business like airline and the name change was supposed to reflect that. He also was madly in love with the color grey.


What made him think business travelers would want to fly on his disgusting planes and subpar service? I remember seeing photos posted of filthy furniture in their clubs, mold growing in air vents on the planes, and F seats with tape on them. US Airways was not known for exceptional service. Far from it.


USAir (and subsequently USAirways) was an awful airline known for poor customer service. It also had developed a reputation for being accident prone (there were a string of fatal accidents involving USAir planes in the early to mid-1990s). Mold growing in air vents on planes? Grow up.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:55 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The 762s were real old. They were Piedmont 1980s builds

No way they would be flying today


About half of them were built and delivered to Piedmont in the 1980s for its CLT-FRA and CLT-LGW services. The others were ordered by USAir post merger.



Didnt they have around 12 762s?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The 762s were real old. They were Piedmont 1980s builds

No way they would be flying today


About half of them were built and delivered to Piedmont in the 1980s for its CLT-FRA and CLT-LGW services. The others were ordered by USAir post merger.



Didnt they have around 12 762s?


They had 12 total. 6 came from Piedmont through the merger. The other 6 were delivered between 1990 and 1996. The last one was delivered in 1996.
 
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Polot
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
The 762s were real old. They were Piedmont 1980s builds

No way they would be flying today


About half of them were built and delivered to Piedmont in the 1980s for its CLT-FRA and CLT-LGW services. The others were ordered by USAir post merger.



Didnt they have around 12 762s?

At the peak there was 12 but one was written off in a ground fire in the late 90s/early 00s and one was sold off so a majority of the time there were 10.

As others have said there was never any intention of operating the 762s until today. There retirement was not early, accelerated, or unexpected.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:13 pm

Polot wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

About half of them were built and delivered to Piedmont in the 1980s for its CLT-FRA and CLT-LGW services. The others were ordered by USAir post merger.



Didnt they have around 12 762s?

At the peak there was 12 but one was written off in a ground fire in the late 90s/early 00s and one was sold off so a majority of the time there were 10.

As others have said there was never any intention of operating the 762s until today. There retirement was not early, accelerated, or unexpected.


USAirways ordered the A350 (which was cancelled by AA post-merger), The 762 replacements were the A332 and the A350. The A333s were on property starting in 2000 and were the biggest plane USAirways had at the time and for much of the 2000s were operating alongside the 762 as the longhaul plane for the airline. No, the 762s were not intended to operate through to today. And yes, one was written off butt hat wasn't in the late 1990s it was post HP merger, pre-AA merger.
 
N766UA
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:16 pm

USAir’s reputation was GARBAGE in the 90’s. I distinctly remember people thinking they were cheap and, worse, genuinely unsafe.
 
CHOWahoo
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:33 pm

The rebranding also was a lackluster attempt to address the brand woes of an airline who had a knack as a consolidator of destroying every last bit of goodwill its takeover targets like Piedmont, PSA and Empire had built in their primary markets.
 
micstatic
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:42 pm

I can remember flying Metrojet 737-200's. They were awful. But at the time they got me between the northeast and Florida often.
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Polot
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:44 pm

D L X wrote:
You should snoop around a.net for the timing, but the A332 order came much later, and the A340 was never really an option.

US was the freakin’ launch customer for the A350 until no one else wanted it, and the a350 turned into a much larger plane that US didn’t need.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?

As far as I know US never had A340 options. They did look around at used A340s (iirc looked at both A343s and A345s, specifically from AC) for launching the China service they got the rights to but complained that 787 delays made used prices too expensive which honestly sounded at the time like a lot of BS and US just reconsidering offering the service but not wanting to give up the rights for as long as possible.

IMO if US remained independent they would have converted their A350 to A330neos ASAP. They definitely wouldn’t have been able to fill 22 A359s, and it is debatable whether they actually could fill the A358s which is what they mostly wanted.
 
stlgph
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:16 pm

Let's get the timeline clear here.

July 21, 1992 British Airways announces partnership with USAir
June 11, 1996 British Airways announces partnership with American Airlines
December 19, 1996 British Airways announces step to sell its stake in USAir
February 27, 1997 USAir officially changes its name to US Airways


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... c095371db/

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/19/busi ... usair.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp ... story.html

https://mashable.com/2015/10/17/us-airways-takes-off/
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D L X
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:17 pm

Polot wrote:
IMO if US remained independent they would have converted their A350 to A330neos ASAP. They definitely wouldn’t have been able to fill 22 A359s, and it is debatable whether they actually could fill the A358s which is what they mostly wanted.

Remember the history of the A350.

When US went into chapter 11, they were Airbus’s largest narrowbody customer. (!) So airbus had a lot at stake in getting US back in the black. They put up a good amount of money to help US out of bankruptcy but required them to be the launch customer for the A350.

But the A350 was a paper plane at the time, and for MANY years later, was only going to be a 245-seat plane. Nobody wanted that plane, including US, but it would have served as an adequate A333 replacement when their time came. I don’t think anyone in 1996 expected the A333s to still be flying in 2020. And when airbus redesigned the A350 to add 100 seats, that plane was never going to be a fit for US, or really AA either with is large 777 fleet.

Check this out: the original A350 rendering:

Image

As for the A340, per SEC filings of the time, the widebidy order was for A330/A340 options. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... 6/d10k.htm
 
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Polot
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:49 pm

D L X wrote:
Polot wrote:
IMO if US remained independent they would have converted their A350 to A330neos ASAP. They definitely wouldn’t have been able to fill 22 A359s, and it is debatable whether they actually could fill the A358s which is what they mostly wanted.

Remember the history of the A350.

When US went into chapter 11, they were Airbus’s largest narrowbody customer. (!) So airbus had a lot at stake in getting US back in the black. They put up a good amount of money to help US out of bankruptcy but required them to be the launch customer for the A350.

But the A350 was a paper plane at the time, and for MANY years later, was only going to be a 245-seat plane. Nobody wanted that plane, including US, but it would have served as an adequate A333 replacement when their time came. I don’t think anyone in 1996 expected the A333s to still be flying in 2020. And when airbus redesigned the A350 to add 100 seats, that plane was never going to be a fit for US, or really AA either with is large 777 fleet.

Check this out: the original A350 rendering:

Image

As for the A340, per SEC filings of the time, the widebidy order was for A330/A340 options. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... 6/d10k.htm

The original A350 that US ordered in 2005 was basically a re-engined A330-200/300 (that progressively got more changes and complicated over time to better compete with the 787 before being replaced by XWB). It was the exact same sizes as those planes. I believe US ordered exclusively the A350-800 (which you showed rendering of) which was the exact same size as the A330-200). When the XWB was introduced US recommitted to it in 2007 and added 2 more to the order, initially all for the A358XWB which would have been somewhere between the A330-200/300 in capacity.

As I said of US remained independent they probably would have converted to the Neo which is essentially what they ordered in the first place back in 2005.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:07 pm

mats wrote:
I think there were a few factors.

There were several fatal accidents. under the USAir brand: US5050 (1989), US1491 (1991), US405 (1992), US427 (1994), US1016 (1994).
USAir was suffering from a poor public image as well as an unfortunate series of fatal accidents.

The airline was complicated due to a series of mergers: Allegheny, Piedmont, PSA, Empire, Mohawk, The T***p Shuttle. The route network was very much short-haul with high labour costs. There were some interesting hubs that seemed to overlap: a hub in Dayton and in Indianapolis with a "focus city in Cleveland;" Syracuse and LaGuardia, smaller foci in New Orleans and Kansas City for USAir Express. It was all over the place, and not necessarily lucrative.

The fleet was older, and thus had higher fuel and maintenance costs. Drawing from mergers and its own fleet, USAir had overlapping F28's, F100s, DC-9s, BAC 1-11s... it was a complicated and inefficient network.

Meanwhile, the competition had simplified: they had removed hubs, simplified and modernized their fleets, and focused on high-revenue, longhaul business class traffic, especially in the North Atlantic.

USAir tried to establish a stronger North Atlantic presence through an alliance with British Airways. This included a bizarre "wet lease," in which USAir 767s were painted to look like BA aircraft. They even had a designated flight on Dash-8 from Washington/National to JFK to connect with a Concorde departure. All of this was short-lived.

USAir also tried establishing itself in other niches. They emphasized Florida (the short-lived Florida Shuttle) and California (the California Shuttle), and a stronger presence to the Caribbean. They partnered with LatinPass, but this, also, was brief.

USAir brought in Stephen Wolf from United. Wolf was--err--"uptown." He was a francophile, and he wanted a more European flair. His plan involved rebranding as US "Airways" to a livery that looked A LOT like United. The once patriotic blue and red cabins gave way to two-tone grey.

The attention would be on business travellers (the magazine was renamed "Attaché" and the forward cabin became Envoy Class.) US Airways rapidly added transatlantic routes. The airline got rid of its older aircraft, moving toward a predominantly Airbus fleet. The many hubs were simplified to just a few.

In its next iteration, the America West takeover led to a white livery, blue leather seats, and (I think) sharper uniforms. The Pittsburgh hub dismantled and Phoenix became a stronghold. More longhaul overwater routes developed, including services to Hawaii, Brazil, and Israel. The service was suffered. At one point, passengers had to pay for water. The A320s and 321s on transcon flights were painfully uncomfortable--even in first class, the food was sad, the crews dismissive, and there was no entertainment.


Bravo, sir! VERY well stated!!

I would like to think that my response, had I been sooner, would have been equal to this.

One additional factor to consider is the "merger mania" of the late 1980's/early 1990's, where an airlines was NOTHING unless it had merged with another airline. Even the lesson of the Pan Am acquisition of National was lost, because USAir said, "hold my beer", and bought PSA. Instead of the reliable hourly shuttle service between Southern California and Northern California, customers experienced horrific delays, as that shuttle service was replaced with flights coming from the east coast, which were routinely delayed, driving customers away by the hundreds, and into the waiting arms of Southwest Airlines, to whom the PSA operating manuals were gifted shortly before absorption. Within a year, the PSA presence USAir had so wanted was gone.

The airline, in turn, was sent reeling from this loss of revenue (along with others), and couldn't find its way. Management was clueless, and the airline faltered. Then came the crashes, and the airline risked complete collapse. But the rebranding - and the focus that came with it - started turning the airline around.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:16 pm

BAINY3 wrote:
D L X wrote:

US-BA was the genesis of global alliances.

US WAS THE GENESIS OF GLOBAL ALLIANCES.



NW/KL were before US/BA. The NW/KL tie-up happened around 1989 or 1990.


Correct NW/KL was before and also I believe CO/SK. BA/US though was really something because of US post-merger East Coast strength and BA always having lots of gateways on the East Coast. It became very practical to fly via PHL, BWI or CLT from smaller cities to LHR on a single ticket. AA/UA didn't have this ability at the time as their LHR gateways were either midwestern hubs (ORD which was just AA at the time to LHR, UA didn't get the rights to fly ORD-LHR I want to say until the mid 90's) or east coast cities lacked the critical mass in connections (IAD, JFK, BOS, etc). The only viable option for many travelers in the southeast and mid-Atlantic to stay on the same airline was to fly AA via JFK or MIA and both were less efficient and in the case MIA involved a fair amount backtracking.
 
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LTU932
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:24 pm

mats wrote:
There were several fatal accidents. under the USAir brand: US5050 (1989), US1491 (1991), US405 (1992), US427 (1994), US1016 (1994).
USAir was suffering from a poor public image as well as an unfortunate series of fatal accidents.
You could say that was also pretty much the same reason why KE rebranded from Korean Air Lines into Korean Air, right? Didn't they have also their share of air safety issues and accidents, leaving KE 007 aside?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
stlgph
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:31 pm

For what it's worth,

https://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/de ... ades/1990s

April 2, 1991: Northwest and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines begin their first joint service, twice-weekly flights between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Amsterdam—launching the world's first airline alliance.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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chepos
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U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:35 pm

LTU932 wrote:
mats wrote:
There were several fatal accidents. under the USAir brand: US5050 (1989), US1491 (1991), US405 (1992), US427 (1994), US1016 (1994).
USAir was suffering from a poor public image as well as an unfortunate series of fatal accidents.
You could say that was also pretty much the same reason why KE rebranded from Korean Air Lines into Korean Air, right? Didn't they have also their share of air safety issues and accidents, leaving KE 007 aside?


Yes, KE also went through a time period there were they occupied headlines often due to their crashes. I recall the GUM accident which was closely followed another incident/accident.


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gadFly
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:42 pm

While the Wolf decision is correct (see Chepos and Blacksoviet answers), there was also, in the media a bad reputation associated with the old names, partly due to service, notably in Pennsylavania. Allegheny, one of the original airlines, had become "Agony" in radio talk shows and letters to editors, and US Air became "You swear". But the BA designs were indeed what prompted a marketing trick of sorts.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:44 pm

Also, around 96/97, BA was also courting KL to be part of this great BA/KL/US alliance..
In the end , as history shows,that never happened, and BA fell into bed with AA.
 
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mats
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:27 pm

@blacksoviet,
No. Prior to their 1993 investment, British Airways had a partnership with United. I even have a section from a BA annual report about their relationship..
This wasn't exactly codesharing, as I recall. It was more about coordination of fares and marketing.

BA did not use USAir gates. The only big geographical cooperation was that USAir used Terminal 7 at JFK.
In fact, USAir to BA connections required re-clearing security in hubs like Boston and Baltimore. The connections required a landside trip to separate building in Chicago and Los Angeles.

The British Airways "Speedwing" was applied to some USAir signage, particularly in airports that had codeshare flights.

As I recall, Piedmont did not codeshare with any overseas carriers.
 
flyjoe
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:42 pm

D L X wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
UA444 wrote:
What made him think business travelers would want to fly on his disgusting planes and subpar service? I remember seeing photos posted of filthy furniture in their clubs, mold growing in air vents on the planes, and F seats with tape on them. US Airways was not known for exceptional service. Far from it.


Well, how old are you? Because in the late nineties, US already had set the standard for business travel around the northeast corridor, inherited from Eastern.
D L X wrote:


They didn’t inherit anything from Eastern. At best, USAir’s strength was enhanced by Eastern’s demise. US was the dominant carrier in the NE in the 80s with hubs in PIT and PHL, mini-hubs/focus cities in CLE, DCA, and BWI, strong presence in every business market in the region and service to just about every small city with an airport in the mid-Atlantic and NE.

In ‘89, EA agreed to sell their PHL hub (8 of 10 gates) to US for $85M. The DOJ was going to block the sale as anti-competitive in the PHL market. EA ended up doing a much larger deal with Midway (v1), with ML getting the PHL hub, aircraft and slots in LGA and DCA. When fuel prices spiked in ‘90 after Iraq invaded Kuwait, ML sold the PHL hub to US for $67M.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xp ... story.html
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/10/19 ... 656308800/

US further strengthened in the NE with the Piedmont acquisition (legacy Empire network) and taking over the Trump Shuttle (formerly Eastern Shuttle).
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:08 pm

Was US Airways ever allowed into Heathrow before the HP merger?
 
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mats
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:26 pm

@blacksoviet, US Airways started flying to Heathrow in 2008 (from Philadelphia).

In 2007, they moved from Orly to Roissy/Charles de Gaulle.
 
D L X
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:27 pm

flyjoe wrote:
They didn’t inherit anything from Eastern.


Also flyjoe wrote:

US further strengthened in the NE with the Piedmont acquisition (legacy Empire network) and taking over the Trump Shuttle (formerly Eastern Shuttle).


This is exactly to what I am referring. The US Airways shuttle had direct lineage to EA, and was a cash cow for business travel.

But also, when EA shuttered, US acquired about half of EA’s 757 fleet.
 
GloryDaysSR
Posts: 28
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 7:42 pm

I remember USAir kind of being a LCC before there were really LCC’s. One of the worst flights I ever took was a LGA-PBW or FLL? on US Airways in 2004. It was an old 737-300 or 400. It was at spring break, only flight I could get and very expensive. The plane was falling apart, literally. I remember the ceiling panel coming apart. The crew was surly. No movie, no music, nada. I was in the last row, squashed in, before the galley and lavs. Service involved a drink run. I remember buying a gin and tonic. The FA came round with a premixed cocktail that I’m convinced had no gin in it. Was happy to get off that plane!
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:14 pm

GloryDaysSR wrote:
I remember USAir kind of being a LCC before there were really LCC’s. One of the worst flights I ever took was a LGA-PBW or FLL? on US Airways in 2004. It was an old 737-300 or 400. It was at spring break, only flight I could get and very expensive. The plane was falling apart, literally. I remember the ceiling panel coming apart. The crew was surly. No movie, no music, nada. I was in the last row, squashed in, before the galley and lavs. Service involved a drink run. I remember buying a gin and tonic. The FA came round with a premixed cocktail that I’m convinced had no gin in it. Was happy to get off that plane!

I bet the seats were more comfortable than the seats they have on that route today. You may have been on one of the HP 733s.
 
USPIT10L
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:22 pm

They didn't even announce the HP/US merger until May of 2005......he flew that route in 2004.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
N383SW
Posts: 124
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:32 pm

The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?


Actually DLX, just a small correction, the HP 57’s were already flying HI and were much older than the LUS 57’s (IIRC there were like 10 ish LUS 57’s that came from EA, however they were gutted and reconfigured to match the LUS new builds 757-2B7’s). US started taking new build 757’s in 1993. The majority of the HP 757 fleet came from RC back in the 80’s, along with a few ex EA frames (that stayed in the EA configuration mostly), and 3 or 4 new builds that came from Boeing around 1989. The LUS 757’s were actually a very nice ride right up until (I think it was Siegel) the closet at 2R was ripped out and they were taken down to 8F from 24F.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:47 pm

N383SW wrote:
The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?


Actually DLX, just a small correction, the HP 57’s were already flying HI and were much older than the LUS 57’s (IIRC there were like 10 ish LUS 57’s that came from EA, however they were gutted and reconfigured to match the LUS new builds 757-2B7’s). US started taking new build 757’s in 1993. The majority of the HP 757 fleet came from RC back in the 80’s, along with a few ex EA frames (that stayed in the EA configuration mostly), and 3 or 4 new builds that came from Boeing around 1989. The LUS 757’s were actually a very nice ride right up until (I think it was Siegel) the closet at 2R was ripped out and they were taken down to 8F from 24F.


Why would they rip out the closet at 2R? Were coach passengers offered champagne for the final F100 flight?
 
N383SW
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:52 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
N383SW wrote:
The HP 757s became international and Hawaii fleet. The 762s were going away before merging with AA, but that merger stalled their departure ever so slightly. All-in-all, the trend to go all-airbus collapsed long before the US-AA merger.

Remember, the US 757s were ex-EA!! Old as shiz. The HP ones were newer. The AA ones were a mix.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?


Actually DLX, just a small correction, the HP 57’s were already flying HI and were much older than the LUS 57’s (IIRC there were like 10 ish LUS 57’s that came from EA, however they were gutted and reconfigured to match the LUS new builds 757-2B7’s). US started taking new build 757’s in 1993. The majority of the HP 757 fleet came from RC back in the 80’s, along with a few ex EA frames (that stayed in the EA configuration mostly), and 3 or 4 new builds that came from Boeing around 1989. The LUS 757’s were actually a very nice ride right up until (I think it was Siegel) the closet at 2R was ripped out and they were taken down to 8F from 24F.


Why would they rip out the closet at 2R? Were coach passengers offered champagne for the final F100 flight?


The closet was taken out to add more seats (on the 757) and as far as the final F100 flight I don't remember but probably not since they accelerated the retirement of those after 9/11 and folks were being furloughed in drones! Those were some very dark days!
 
IADCA
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:08 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I always thought US Airways was the full name of USAir.


And you were wrong. It was indeed just called USAir for nearly two decades.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:15 pm

Did Doug Parker allow coach passengers to be served champagne for the final 737-400 flight? What about the 733 and the 762?
 
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chepos
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:15 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Did Doug Parker allow coach passengers to be served champagne for the final 737-400 flight? What about the 733 and the 762?


Both aircraft as I recall were retired without much fanfare (unlike the AA MD80), pretty certain there was no champagne but I was not there to confirm beverages provided in flight. You seem to have a keen interest in champagne.


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blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:33 pm

Many of the original US Air 737-300s were retired with less than 25 years of service. The last one was retired in 2012. Hopefully one of them will fly again someday.
 
IADCA
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:52 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Many of the original US Air 737-300s were retired with less than 25 years of service. The last one was retired in 2012. Hopefully one of them will fly again someday.


I don't think any of the -300s are still active (2012 was a while ago, especially in the lives of old planes), but a couple of the -400s are still active.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:20 pm

Polot wrote:
D L X wrote:
You should snoop around a.net for the timing, but the A332 order came much later, and the A340 was never really an option.

US was the freakin’ launch customer for the A350 until no one else wanted it, and the a350 turned into a much larger plane that US didn’t need.

Which merger are you talking about, US-HP or US(new)-AA?

As far as I know US never ha d A340 options. They did look around at used A340s (iirc looked at both A343s and A345s, specifically from AC) for launching the China service they got the rights to but complained that 787 delays made used prices too expensive which honestly sounded at the time like a lot of BS and US just reconsidering offering the service but not wanting to give up the rights for as long as possible.

IMO if US remained independent they would have converted their A350 to A330neos ASAP. They definitely wouldn’t have been able to fill 22 A359s, and it is debatable whether they actually could fill the A358s which is what they mostly wanted.

Was the idea for the A340-300s to be based at PHL?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:27 pm

IADCA wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Many of the original US Air 737-300s were retired with less than 25 years of service. The last one was retired in 2012. Hopefully one of them will fly again someday.


I don't think any of the -300s are still active (2012 was a while ago, especially in the lives of old planes), but a couple of the -400s are still active.

Two of the -300s are still active with Swift Air. They were both delivered to USAir in 1989. They have 8 First Class seats.

One of the Metrojet 737-200s is still in service with the Mexican Air Force. It was delivered to USAir in 1984 and sold to the Mexican Air Force in 2006. I wonder why they didn’t buy a 737-300 instead.

The last Metrojet 737-200 was not retired until 2007. That aircraft was delivered in 1983.
 
mga707
Posts: 303
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:09 am

blacksoviet wrote:
GloryDaysSR wrote:
I remember USAir kind of being a LCC before there were really LCC’s. One of the worst flights I ever took was a LGA-PBW or FLL? on US Airways in 2004. It was an old 737-300 or 400. It was at spring break, only flight I could get and very expensive. The plane was falling apart, literally. I remember the ceiling panel coming apart. The crew was surly. No movie, no music, nada. I was in the last row, squashed in, before the galley and lavs. Service involved a drink run. I remember buying a gin and tonic. The FA came round with a premixed cocktail that I’m convinced had no gin in it. Was happy to get off that plane!

I bet the seats were more comfortable than the seats they have on that route today. You may have been on one of the HP 733s.


2004 was two years before the HP/US merger, so not an HP 733.
 
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chepos
Posts: 7273
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:16 am

mga707 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
GloryDaysSR wrote:
I remember USAir kind of being a LCC before there were really LCC’s. One of the worst flights I ever took was a LGA-PBW or FLL? on US Airways in 2004. It was an old 737-300 or 400. It was at spring break, only flight I could get and very expensive. The plane was falling apart, literally. I remember the ceiling panel coming apart. The crew was surly. No movie, no music, nada. I was in the last row, squashed in, before the galley and lavs. Service involved a drink run. I remember buying a gin and tonic. The FA came round with a premixed cocktail that I’m convinced had no gin in it. Was happy to get off that plane!

I bet the seats were more comfortable than the seats they have on that route today. You may have been on one of the HP 733s.


2004 was two years before the HP/US merger, so not an HP 733.


Mind you HP 733’s never flew US (east) routes. They operated out of the HP CMH hub but definitely not LGA-FL.


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usflyer msp
Posts: 3722
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Re: U.S. Air Rebranding to U.S. Airways

Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:31 am

mats wrote:
@blacksoviet, US Airways started flying to Heathrow in 2008 (from Philadelphia).

In 2007, they moved from Orly to Roissy/Charles de Gaulle.


US moved to CDG well before 2007. The first time I went to Europe in 1995, I flew US and it was into ORY and back from CDG because the flight was relocated.

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