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mileduets
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Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:28 pm

According to the news source a 23 year old mother in London Heathrow aboard a Swiss Air flight argued against putting her buggy into the cargo hold based on it "being too precious". A FA refused her request. Later the mother went up to the front of the aircraft again, insisting on getting the name of the FA in question when the pilot came out of the cockpit and intervened.
The mother and the 53 year old grand mother allegedly pushed the pilot back into the cockpit and to the ground after he used physical force to remove them. He got bite and scratch marks. Mother and grandmother got arrested.

In the hearing after, the pilot insisted he had the right to use force claiming immunity if he deemed the security of the crew in jeopardy.

https://www.20min.ch/ausland/news/story/Mutter-und-Tochter-gehen-auf-Swiss-Pilot-los-28208096

What's your thought on that? Will the pilot also have to face consequences? I'm a bit worried by the deterioration of authority of the flight crew. A captain used to be pretty much "untouchable", and certainly didn't need to use force to enforce his orders.
Last edited by mileduets on Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
StTim
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:40 pm

Easy for me. Passenger oiks bear full blame. Captain should be compensated by the said oiks. They should be put on a no fly list for all airlines.

Buggies go in the hold - end of.
 
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Jamake1
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:51 pm

No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.
Come fly the sun.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:53 pm

Here's a slightly better description of the events (20min is garbage, I know the independent isn't much better but still this is much more detailed):

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/ne ... 72591.html

It looks like he went to physically guide the woman out of the aircraft as she wasn't backing down, but certainly didn't strike or even push her, and they flipped their lids.

Kicking someone while they're down is never ok. Looks like a pair of DYKWIA entitled twits, but the courts will sort it out. If all he was doing was gently guiding them in their agitated state out of the aircraft, and they beat the crap out of him, I hope they throw the book at them.
 
adityashankar
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:53 pm

Well, this is becoming a nuisance everywhere. I used to work at the airport as a customer service agent, and the passenger's attitude towards the airline crew and staff (irrespective of nationality) kept getting worse. I feel the public don't realize just how ridiculous some of their claims sound (perhaps lack of communication from the airline/agent or lack of education - I mean they don't teach us the reason behind rules or etiquette in school do they?).

In the scenario above, rather than arguing, the passengers should realize that the buggy can't be kept on board due to its size (it wont fit in the over head lockers), that's why it is checked in. The passenger must also realize that checking in doesn't mean "lost", in fact if it was checked it at the gate or by the airplane, it is priority luggage and probably the first thing to appear on the luggage belt.

As for the pilot, he had the right to intervene especially since he in charge of the safety of all passengers. And also from a human perceptive, how many times are you going to explain the rules over and over and over again. I'm sure the FA must have calmly explained why the buggy had to be checked in, but if the passenger stubbornly creates a ruckus, causing a delay and a possible safety/security issue. What other choice did the pilot have?

The pilot must not face any consequences. Apart from working odd timings and dealing with ATC, traffic and what not, the last thing he needs is a knucklehead adding to his/her problems. This is really an issue that has to be addressed ASAP. Airlines must take the time to explain their rules and regulations to the general public and also warn them that discussing, questioning the crew/airport staff is fine, but arguing is not. Respect is key. It has to be brought back.
Spreading the Joy of Flight
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:04 pm

@adityashankar if you read the article I linked it clarifies that the violence took place once the aircraft had landed and was at the gate, and I infer other passengers had deplaned but not sure. Anyhow that muddies the safety issue a bit.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:07 pm

It doesn't seem like he was being agressive, but I certainly wouldn't have tried to physically force them out of the aircraft or even touch them. That's what security/police is for. By trying to do this yourself, you just expose yourself to potential legal issues, regardless of how outrageous and uncooperative their behavior is. Especially in certain countries.

Pilots should refrain from intervening in pax issues and if they do, should limit their intervention to a diplomatic and even-tempered conversation..
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:10 pm

It's times like those when you long back to the days of flying cargo.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:22 pm

In a world of commoditization of people its quite easy for an Us vs Them attitude to start. The passenger is forced into a smaller box of allowable behavior (see the many assertions on here about passenger being only entitled to a seat on a plane if the company deems that they can have it (bumping) and must be in it when they deem they must (travelling short) and nothing more can be expected, such as politeness) against a group of people who want the right to take over a plane as if it there own private jet, ignore all reasonable request and inconvenience everyone else to pander to their sense of entitlement. In this world we are taught that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so is there any surprise when people start screeching?
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Exeiowa wrote:
In a world of commoditization of people its quite easy for an Us vs Them attitude to start. The passenger is forced into a smaller box of allowable behavior (see the many assertions on here about passenger being only entitled to a seat on a plane if the company deems that they can have it (bumping) and must be in it when they deem they must (travelling short) and nothing more can be expected, such as politeness) against a group of people who want the right to take over a plane as if it there own private jet, ignore all reasonable request and inconvenience everyone else to pander to their sense of entitlement. In this world we are taught that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so is there any surprise when people start screeching?


Absolutely no surprise, but crews needs to have a safe way to deal with them when such an exceptional event occurs.

Being afraid of defending itself and its crew due to potential legal consequences can be very dangerous.
Maybe it's the rule in the US, but I don't think the US are an example to follow.
Caravelle lover
 
Fliplot
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:59 pm

I have never found SWISS crew to be anything other than polite, respectful, safe and professional (more than 100 flughts)
We live in a world where manners no longer matter and where rules are to be broken.
The moral - either don't travel or buy a cheaper buggy!!!
 
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zeke
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:39 pm

mileduets wrote:
What's your thought on that? Will the pilot also have to face consequences? I'm a bit worried by the deterioration of authority of the flight crew. A captain used to be pretty much "untouchable", and certainly didn't need to use force to enforce his orders.


I don’t think the captain will face any legal issues in the UK, their actions seem reasonable.

As passengers were still on the aircraft after the flight, the crew still have a responsibility to all the passengers, not just the loudest.

I don’t think the Tokyo Convention is applicable here, the door was open. UK law should apply.

Jamake1 wrote:
No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.


The captain allegedly didn’t use force, the passengers started filming them (without consent), the captain said this has to stop, and gently guided them toward the exit. The article said when the captain “touched” the passenger they flipped and allegedly assaulted the crew.

Under UK law, normal reasonable human to human contact like a touch is not considered assault, if I were to tap you on your shoulder to get your attention and say your backpack is unzipped that would not be considered as being assault. Most of the physical contacts of ordinary life are not actionable because they are impliedly consented to by all who move in society and so expose themselves to the risk of bodily contact: Collins v Wilcock [1984] 1 WLR 1172.

One needs to be careful making such claims as you have on an international forum when they clearly are not appropriate for the situation. The crown is only prosecuting the two passengers for assault, not the crew.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Etheereal
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:48 pm

Zeke is right with the UK statement. Also, as that didnt happen in the US , there was no assault involved.
 
TheWorm123
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:58 pm

Why is the default to start filming immediately now? All the aggressor does is make themselves look like a dick.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:08 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Zeke is right with the UK statement. Also, as that didnt happen in the US , there was no assault involved.

If it has happened in the US, the passengers would still have to prove the pilot/crew assaulted them, the pilot could also claim self-defense.
And lastly, the whole crew would claim failure to comply with crew instructions, which is a federal offense I believe...
So, the passengers would be even in hotter waters.

Now, again, had this happened in the US, the airline would have settled this incident out of court, which would mean they deny guilt and could impose a gag order on the passengers.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:10 pm

TheWorm123 wrote:
Why is the default to start filming immediately now? All the aggressor does is make themselves look like a dick.

Video provides a graphic proof, and it's no longer "he said she said". But it could backfire on the person filming.
 
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zeke
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:45 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Video provides a graphic proof, and it's no longer "he said she said". But it could backfire on the person filming.


The elephant in the room in the stroller, and the terms the passenger agreed to when they purchased their ticket. Obviously a stroller would not fit under a seat, or in an enclosed storage compartment in the aircraft, so it gets checked in.

The behaviors exhibited by the passengers in my view is not a normal reaction to having a stroller checked in at the gate, such a loss of control could indicate a substance or illness altering their behaviors.

Article 11 is normally found in every airlines conditions of carriage, normally word for word the same as what Swiss has in theirs. It is common across the industry. It s the clause where a passenger has agreed to the use of force or to restraint.

From https://www.swiss.com/ch/EN/terms-condi ... article-11

8.7 Unchecked Baggage
8.7.1 We may specify maximum dimensions and/or maximum weights for Baggage which you carry on to the aircraft. If we have not done so, any Baggage which you carry onto the aircraft must fit under the seat in front of you or in an enclosed storage compartment in the aircraft's cabin. If your Baggage cannot be stored in this manner, or if it is of excessive weight or is otherwise considered dangerous, you will be asked to surrender it to us and it will be carried as Checked Baggage.

Article 11: Conduct aboard aircraft
11.1 General
If, in our opinion, you conduct yourself in such a way that you endanger the aircraft or any person or property on board, obstruct the crew or fail to comply with any instructions of the crew, especially with respect to smoking or alcohol or drug consumption, or if you behave in a manner which causes discomfort, inconvenience, damage or injury to other passengers or the crew, we may take such measures as we deem reasonably necessary to prevent the continuation of such conduct, including restraint. You may be removed from the aircraft and refused onward carriage, and you may be prosecuted for any offences committed on board.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
mileduets
Topic Author
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:14 pm

zeke wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:

Article 11 is normally found in every airlines conditions of carriage, normally word for word the same as what Swiss has in theirs. It is common across the industry. It s the clause where a passenger has agreed to the use of force or to restraint.

From https://www.swiss.com/ch/EN/terms-condi ... article-11

8.7 Unchecked Baggage
8.7.1 We may specify maximum dimensions and/or maximum weights for Baggage which you carry on to the aircraft. If we have not done so, any Baggage which you carry onto the aircraft must fit under the seat in front of you or in an enclosed storage compartment in the aircraft's cabin. If your Baggage cannot be stored in this manner, or if it is of excessive weight or is otherwise considered dangerous, you will be asked to surrender it to us and it will be carried as Checked Baggage.

Article 11: Conduct aboard aircraft
11.1 General
If, in our opinion, you conduct yourself in such a way that you endanger the aircraft or any person or property on board, obstruct the crew or fail to comply with any instructions of the crew, especially with respect to smoking or alcohol or drug consumption, or if you behave in a manner which causes discomfort, inconvenience, damage or injury to other passengers or the crew, we may take such measures as we deem reasonably necessary to prevent the continuation of such conduct, including restraint. You may be removed from the aircraft and refused onward carriage, and you may be prosecuted for any offences committed on board.


Thank you; this seems to answer the question concerning the base of the claim the pilot made concerning his use of force.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:44 pm

I was reminded of the book from the late 1980's entitled, "Flying High", by two flight attendants who related their horror stories.

One of them was a very entitled woman wearing a fur coat who started making a scene before the plane taken off. As the story was told, the captain had to come out of the cockpit and speak to the woman. He told her, "you have two choices: sit down and we can deal with this later, or you can be removed and blacklisted from the airline". The woman didn't hesitate for even a microsecond, as she punched the pilot in the face. Hauled off, arrested, and the flight went on without her.

"People" (and I use that term lightly) having been pulling this entitled crap for decades. Today we just get it on camera. As far as I'm concerned, if the pilot needs to use force to calm the hysterical shrieking banshees of entitlement down - or to preserve the safety of the plane - go for it.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:56 pm

How is anyone supposed to fly the next sector in a clear state of mind after something like this happens?
First to fly the 787-9
 
strfyr51
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:33 pm

StTim wrote:
Easy for me. Passenger oiks bear full blame. Captain should be compensated by the said oiks. They should be put on a no fly list for all airlines.

Buggies go in the hold - end of.


why would a pilot even put himself through that? If he's a man and he manhandles a woman? He's wrong! However? If he calls the police? Dude is golden!.
easier to ;kick them off the airplane than to grapple with them. If they're going to act the damn fool over a carriage? then maybe they should take the Train!
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:46 pm

I think if there's any trouble the pilots should keep the door locked. If there's a fight on a plane the last thing anyone needs is for the pilots to get involved. A better idea would be for cabin crews to include at least one "bouncer" type guy, who would stand at the plane door and not let anyone one that is drunk or wearing trainers.
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:54 pm

In the UK you have the right to remove people from property. First though you have to ask them three times to leave the property.After that you have th right to use minimum force to eject them from said property. No argument. I should imagine an aircraft is counted as property.
 
usa330300
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:08 pm

Jamake1 wrote:
No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Appropriate force can be used to diffuse and unruly pax.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:51 am

usa330300 wrote:
Jamake1 wrote:
No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Appropriate force can be used to diffuse and unruly pax.


Please kindly forward that memo to UA as a friendly reminder. #DrDao
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
ramprat320
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:19 am

#DrDao ....that wasn’t United was it? That was airport security.
 
snasteve
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:09 am

Beware of biting passengers.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:56 am

strfyr51 wrote:
If he's a man and he manhandles a woman? He's wrong!


There is an ever growing worldwide movement that says men and woman should be treated as total equals regardless, which means in this day and age there should be a few million people calling you a sexist.

There wont be of course, and I mostly agree with your statement. An exception might be if a woman was physically assaulting me (and doing real harm) because she believed I could not use force in return, because she is a woman. If she was a lady as well as a woman, that situation wouldn't arise. However, the "woman" would quickly find her makeup smeared.
 
JayBCN
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:03 am

goosebayguy wrote:
In the UK you have the right to remove people from property. First though you have to ask them three times to leave the property.After that you have th right to use minimum force to eject them from said property. No argument. I should imagine an aircraft is counted as property.


Legally speaking this happened on SWISS territory, isn’t it?
 
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zeke
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:06 am

JayBCN wrote:
Legally speaking this happened on SWISS territory, isn’t it?


The door was open so U.K. laws will also apply.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
JayBCN
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:17 am

There are certain nationalities of airline passengers which seem to appear in this type of headlines more than others, and British is definitely one of them. Not sure if it is a general loss of rules of conduct right down from the elected representatives through all levels, or just excessive consumption of alcohol in public which is behind that.

Recently on 20 feb on an evening Vueling flight out of MUC back home to BCN there were a group of ca 15 British hooligan nerds with long hair drunk to the brim playing loud music. They were allowed to stay on board despite the fact that passengers asked to be seated away from them. On 28 feb I was on a EW flight from CGN to BCN where a Russian speaking gentlemen boarded with a glass of beer in his hand. I wish we had had a courageous pilot on board who would have had them disembark.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:29 am

Sadly a mix of factors has led to the growing number of confrontations of passengers with airline staff and crews like this.
This buggy shouldn't have got past check in or security but their staff not paid enough, fear of holding up lines and getting into confrontations so let them go past.
Many fear having to pay the stupidly high fees for checked baggage, of the item being lost,stolen, damaged or delayed if checked.
Growing numbers of pax are willing to bully staff to force their will even if dead wrong.
More with mental health issues, including using drugs to deal with them with side effects are confronting staff.
Being able to use social media and a video camera in almost everyone's pocket further aggravates such situations.
 
AVFCdownunder
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:40 am

Jamake1 wrote:
No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.


Airport Police are not on an aircraft at the click of a finger. If there and then the captain or anyone else needed to use reasonable force to protect themselves or others then that is totally justified.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:29 pm

zeke wrote:
mileduets wrote:
What's your thought on that? Will the pilot also have to face consequences? I'm a bit worried by the deterioration of authority of the flight crew. A captain used to be pretty much "untouchable", and certainly didn't need to use force to enforce his orders.


I don’t think the captain will face any legal issues in the UK, their actions seem reasonable.

As passengers were still on the aircraft after the flight, the crew still have a responsibility to all the passengers, not just the loudest.

I don’t think the Tokyo Convention is applicable here, the door was open. UK law should apply.

Jamake1 wrote:
No. No matter how inappropriate the passenger is behaving, we do not use physical force. In the United States, that is considered assault. The captain should’ve called for airport police to come and remove the passengers. As crew members, we do not touch customers.


The captain allegedly didn’t use force, the passengers started filming them (without consent), the captain said this has to stop, and gently guided them toward the exit. The article said when the captain “touched” the passenger they flipped and allegedly assaulted the crew.

Under UK law, normal reasonable human to human contact like a touch is not considered assault, if I were to tap you on your shoulder to get your attention and say your backpack is unzipped that would not be considered as being assault. Most of the physical contacts of ordinary life are not actionable because they are impliedly consented to by all who move in society and so expose themselves to the risk of bodily contact: Collins v Wilcock [1984] 1 WLR 1172.

One needs to be careful making such claims as you have on an international forum when they clearly are not appropriate for the situation. The crown is only prosecuting the two passengers for assault, not the crew.



Collins v Wilcock [1984] 1 WLR 1172. had to do with an office grabbing someone by the arm to stop them from walking away. Note: Grabbing, the captain did not grab the person.
 
Flaps
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:51 pm

Some airlines are starting to instruct staff to deplane the entire flight in circumstances such as this in order to avoid physical conflict. It has the double effect of shaming the offending passenger(s) and also permitting security to remove them forcefully if necessary without being filmed by the other passengers.

Thank you Dr. Dao..... :hissyfit:
 
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zeke
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Re: Swiss Airlines : aggression between pilot and passengers

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:02 am

rbavfan wrote:

Collins v Wilcock [1984] 1 WLR 1172. had to do with an office grabbing someone by the arm to stop them from walking away. Note: Grabbing, the captain did not grab the person.


According to the article the captain touched the passenger to guide them to the exit.

From the case cited

“[A] broader exception has been created to allow for the exigencies of everyday life. Generally speaking consent is a defence to battery; and most of the physical contacts of ordinary life are not actionable because they are impliedly consented to by all who move in society and so expose themselves to the risk of bodily contact . . Although such cases are regarded as examples of implied consent, it is more common nowadays to treat them as falling within a general exception embracing all physical contact which is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life . . [We] think that nowadays it is more realistic, and indeed more accurate, to state the broad underlying principle, subject to the broad exception. . . In each case, the test must be whether the physical contact so persisted in has in the circumstances gone beyond generally acceptable standards of conduct; and the answer to that question will depend upon the facts of the particular case.”
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949

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