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CRJ200flyer
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:36 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
TW870 wrote:
As others have noted, NW flew the DC-10 extensively in Asia after the GE-powered DC-10-30s started arriving from Swissair and other carriers in 1992.

The bigger question is if Northwest ever scheduled the Pratt powered DC-10-40s to Asia. If they did, it would have been in a very short window in the 1970s. I swear I have seen NW advertisements for the DC-10 in Asia, but after surveying schedules from 1974, 1976, 1978, and 1980, I see no DC-10 transpac service. DC-10s flew west coast to Alaska and Hawaii, but nothing that I can find further to the West. And once NW built up its Europe flying out of BOS and DTW, the whole DC-10-40 fleet was occupied with domestic and Europe. Can anyone find examples of NW DC-10-40 flying in Asia?


NW's April 29, 1973 timetable shows the DC-10 was used on NW 3, IAD-CLE-ORD-ANC-HND. The HND-ITM-TPE legs of this flight were operated with a 707.

The April 22, 1974 timetable shows this flight was due to switch to a 747, and the CLE stop would be omitted, effective June 1, 1974.

Other flights you could take an NW DC-10 in 1973 were:

NW 20 PDX-ORD-CLE
NW 28 SEA-ORD-CLE-PHL-JFK
NW 51 PHL-DTW-SEA-PDX
NW 57 CLE-ORD-PDX-SEA
NW 80 MSP-DTW-PHL
NW 153 MSP-SFO
NW 158 SFO-MSP
NW 245 JFK-DTW-ORD-MSP
NW 707 FLL-ORD-MSP
NW 726 MSP-ORD-FLL


Out of curiosity, how did Northwest decide to operate a DC-10 on routes like ORD-CLE and DTW-ORD? Why would anyone operate an aircraft that large on these routes?
 
Transpac787
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:04 am

Northwest DC10's routinely operated to/through Asia. Even in their final years at Northwest, they operated PDX-NRT prior to the A330-200's being delivered, and even SFO-NRT after the 747-200's began their final drawdown.

I have a couple old Northwest timetables, showing them operating HNL-NRT, HNL-KIX, SEA-KIX, among many others.

TW870 wrote:
United bought the two very high gross weight 747-200Bs with the -7R4G2 engines for SEA-HKG

No. United bought them for JFK-NRT. After United first briefly operated SEA-HKG with the DC10, it was then operated using 747SP's until they terminated the route. Northwest bought 747-200B IGW's for SEA-HKG, as well as JFK-NRT and JFK-OSA (KIX was not yet in use).

timz wrote:
Didn't UA get the two 747-222Bs for JFK-NRT?

Correct. They operated in a unique premium-heavy configuration, different from the other 747-200's.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:16 am

As others have noted, NW definitely flew PDX-NRT with the DC-10. I worked it most days. Flight 5 outbound, and 6 inbound.

This was in ‘04 (ish), and the reliability was becoming more and more of an issue. It got to the point that the arrival would come in, and become the next day’s outbound. That’s a large part of why PDX was one of the first NW cities to see the A330-200’s...
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asr0dzjq
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:29 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why didn’t FedEx buy any of the DC-10-40s from Northwest and convert them to MD-10s?

Probably the limited number of DC-10-40's built
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:38 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why didn’t FedEx buy any of the DC-10-40s from Northwest and convert them to MD-10s?


Was NW interested in selling any of those? Why acquire a bunch of unique series 40 née series 20, when you can get close to 100 series 10, a version that you already operate domestically?
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:27 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
TW870 wrote:
As others have noted, NW flew the DC-10 extensively in Asia after the GE-powered DC-10-30s started arriving from Swissair and other carriers in 1992.

The bigger question is if Northwest ever scheduled the Pratt powered DC-10-40s to Asia. If they did, it would have been in a very short window in the 1970s. I swear I have seen NW advertisements for the DC-10 in Asia, but after surveying schedules from 1974, 1976, 1978, and 1980, I see no DC-10 transpac service. DC-10s flew west coast to Alaska and Hawaii, but nothing that I can find further to the West. And once NW built up its Europe flying out of BOS and DTW, the whole DC-10-40 fleet was occupied with domestic and Europe. Can anyone find examples of NW DC-10-40 flying in Asia?


NW's April 29, 1973 timetable shows the DC-10 was used on NW 3, IAD-CLE-ORD-ANC-HND. The HND-ITM-TPE legs of this flight were operated with a 707.

The April 22, 1974 timetable shows this flight was due to switch to a 747, and the CLE stop would be omitted, effective June 1, 1974.

Other flights you could take an NW DC-10 in 1973 were:

NW 20 PDX-ORD-CLE
NW 28 SEA-ORD-CLE-PHL-JFK
NW 51 PHL-DTW-SEA-PDX
NW 57 CLE-ORD-PDX-SEA
NW 80 MSP-DTW-PHL
NW 153 MSP-SFO
NW 158 SFO-MSP
NW 245 JFK-DTW-ORD-MSP
NW 707 FLL-ORD-MSP
NW 726 MSP-ORD-FLL


Out of curiosity, how did Northwest decide to operate a DC-10 on routes like ORD-CLE and DTW-ORD? Why would anyone operate an aircraft that large on these routes?


In the 1970s, Northwest's main hub was at ORD, with a secondary hub at MSP. DTW was just a small focus city.

Also, both CLE and DTW had limited service to cities west of the Mississippi other than LAX, SFO, DEN, MSP, STL, and DFW. Someone in either CLE or DTW who needed to go to cities like SLC, SEA, PDX, TUS, PHX, or ABQ, had to change planes to get there, and the main airport where they changed planes was ORD.

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.
 
TW870
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:10 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
In the 1970s, Northwest's main hub was at ORD, with a secondary hub at MSP. DTW was just a small focus city.

Also, both CLE and DTW had limited service to cities west of the Mississippi other than LAX, SFO, DEN, MSP, STL, and DFW. Someone in either CLE or DTW who needed to go to cities like SLC, SEA, PDX, TUS, PHX, or ABQ, had to change planes to get there, and the main airport where they changed planes was ORD.

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.


That is such a good point - that ORD was a larger station for NW than MSP or DTW in the 1970s. I looked up the widebody NW schedules at ORD, MSP, and DTW to show the contrast. Thank you as always to the departed flights folks:

http://www.departedflights.com/74intro.html

ORD Widebodies:

CLE: 1xD10
DTW: 1xD10
FLL: 1xD10
HNL: 1x747
MIA: 1xD10
MSP: 4xD10, 1x747
PDX: 1xD10
SEA: 1xD10, 1x747
TPA: 2xD10, 1x747

DTW Widebodies:

ORD: 1xD10, 1x747
MKE: 1xD10
MSP: 1xD10
JFK: 1xD10
PHL: 1xD10

MSP Widebodies:

ORD: 4xD10, 1x747
LAX: 1x747
MKE: 1xD10, 1x747
SEA: 1xD10

So you can see that ORD was far larger for NW widebodies than its later hubs. Note that Anchorage is not in this data - presumably because those flights continued to Asia and thus went in the international OAG - which has a different page on departed flights. So I think ORD would have had one more 747 by this time (it had just swapped from a D10 as noted above).

Note also the amazing Northwest flight 245, a DC-10 that left DTW at 2:40am and arrived ORD at 2:37am. Likely used as a cargo flight as mentioned above. Service operated only one way! Can imagine the cabin was too full. Lots of drunks on board on the weekends I bet!
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:54 pm

WA707atMSP and TW870 - really appreciate both of your detailed replies. Never realized ORD was once that large of a station for NW or thought of the cargo aspect of the operation. Thanks again
 
factsonly
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:06 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:

In the mid nineties NW flew a DTW-AMS-BOM rotation on a DC-10 30. It didn't last very long. Maybe a year.


Not quite !

NW and KL commenced joint AMS-India flying in 1997.
Initially the two airlines would alternate AMS departures to each destination DEL and BOM, so KL 3x weekly and NW 4x weekly on AMS-DEL and KL 4x weekly and NW 3x weekly on AMS-BOM.

This did not last long, as it is administratively more expensive and operationally less flexible to alternate airline and aircraft type.
So the airlines dropped this complex schedule and elected to operate simply one destination each: NW daily AMS-BOM and KL daily AMS-DEL.
This dedicated schedule lasted nearly 20 years from the late 1990's into the NW take-over by Delta, who continued to operate AMS-BOM until a couple of years ago.

Over those years NW flew AMS-BOM with different aircraft types:
- B747-200B
- B747-400
- DC10-30
- A332

The AMS-BOM flights originated from various USA destinations JFK and MSP (mostly), but also DTW and BOS for short periods of time.

In 2005 NW announced and opened reservations for SEA-AMS-BLR daily on A332, a route that was cancelled just days prior to the inaugural service.








The only NW type that operated USA-AMS, but NEVER AMS-BOM is the B757:



For some more USA-India history see:
https://www.travelcodex.com/the-challen ... -figures2/
 
TLG
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:43 pm

airzim wrote:
In addition, NW flew the 10s to BOM


I never flew NW to BOM, but I remember seeing a NW DC-10 at BOM one time. This would have been in January 1999. NW operated the BOM route from AMS.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:09 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:

You are correct. The India ops started in the summer of 1997. I lived in Minneapolis at the time and knew all things NW. Again, I think the flights only lasted a year.

NW flew the DC-10 to BOM until the mid-2000s. I know that for a fact because I flew BOM-AMS on a DC-10 in January 2005.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:12 pm

CRJ200flyer wrote:
WA707atMSP and TW870 - really appreciate both of your detailed replies. Never realized ORD was once that large of a station for NW or thought of the cargo aspect of the operation. Thanks again


Until the early 1980s, General Motors had two Los Angeles area assembly plants (in Van Nuys and Norwalk) and Ford had one (in Pico Rivera). Although many of the parts for these plants were shipped via rail, if a rail car with parts was misrouted or delayed, additional parts had to be rushed to the assembly plants via air cargo to avoid an assembly line shutdown. United Air Lines flew 2x day DC-10s DTW-LAX, plus a DC-8-50 freighter, and American flew 3x day DC-10s plus a 747 freighter, because there were so many emergency auto parts shipments from Detroit to Los Angeles. Both airlines also flew DC-10s DTW-SFO to carry emergency auto parts to the General Motors assembly plant in Fremont (which is now a Tesla factory) and the Ford factory in Milpitas (which is now a shopping mall). Neither American nor United had hubs in DTW, but they offered more capacity to LAX and SFO in the 1970s than DL does now, even with their hub in DTW to feed flights to LAX and SFO, because of the auto industry traffic.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:16 pm

airzim wrote:
I'm pretty certain they flew longer than a year. If memory serves, the alternated between AMS-DEL and AMS-BOM with KL. In fact once the merger happened, DL took over and flew to both DEL and BOM from AMS. Eventually switched the flight from AMS to CDG and flew it with a 767-300.

I think DL flew CDG-BOM with a 767-300 before the merger with NW. At that time DL flew CDG-BOM and NW flew AMS-BOM. After the merger, DL operated AMS-BOM using the A332, A333 and B767-300 at various times until March 2015 when it completely dropped the route.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:20 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

You are correct. The India ops started in the summer of 1997. I lived in Minneapolis at the time and knew all things NW. Again, I think the flights only lasted a year.

NW flew the DC-10 to BOM until the mid-2000s. I know that for a fact because I flew BOM-AMS on a DC-10 in January 2005.


AMS-BOM transitionned to A333 September 30th, 2006: https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... 0-aircraft

Last DC-10 service by NW was January 7th, 2007: viewtopic.php?t=403089
 
TW870
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:55 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
WA707atMSP and TW870 - really appreciate both of your detailed replies. Never realized ORD was once that large of a station for NW or thought of the cargo aspect of the operation. Thanks again


Until the early 1980s, General Motors had two Los Angeles area assembly plants (in Van Nuys and Norwalk) and Ford had one (in Pico Rivera). Although many of the parts for these plants were shipped via rail, if a rail car with parts was misrouted or delayed, additional parts had to be rushed to the assembly plants via air cargo to avoid an assembly line shutdown. United Air Lines flew 2x day DC-10s DTW-LAX, plus a DC-8-50 freighter, and American flew 3x day DC-10s plus a 747 freighter, because there were so many emergency auto parts shipments from Detroit to Los Angeles. Both airlines also flew DC-10s DTW-SFO to carry emergency auto parts to the General Motors assembly plant in Fremont (which is now a Tesla factory) and the Ford factory in Milpitas (which is now a shopping mall). Neither American nor United had hubs in DTW, but they offered more capacity to LAX and SFO in the 1970s than DL does now, even with their hub in DTW to feed flights to LAX and SFO, because of the auto industry traffic.


Great background info. And as others noted above, you didn't have the giant cargo companies like FedEx, UPS, and Atlas with their own jumbos like we have today. In the 1970s, last minute auto parts either rode in the belly of passenger jets leaving Detroit Metro, or as cargo on the Willow Run freight operators such as Zantop and Transcontinental. This is an excellent video of the night Zantop rush - but in actual daylight because fog had shut the night operation down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12oRIoO4F1w

This is probably shot in the early 1980s, as there are still JT4A powered DC-8s in this sequence, which were banned due to noise abatement in 1985. The thing to note, though, is that Electas, Convairs, and DC-6s were doing the majority of the lift. They don't have the capacity or the range to do what modern freighters do. So you can really see why UA and AA did all of those west coast DC-10 trips, or why NW flight 245 left at 3am - since it could connect priority cargo to morning flights out of ORD.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:13 pm

While not Asia, didn’t the NW DC10s run HNL-SYD 1-2 days with the other days being 742s, I think this originated in LAX and ran 4 weekly? With 3 744s weekly doing LAX-SYD.
 
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tb727
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:51 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
CRJ200flyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.


My dad was an NW mechanic in CLE and always said they made a lot of money on cargo on the DC-10 coming through there.
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:18 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:


In the 1970s, Northwest's main hub was at ORD, with a secondary hub at MSP. DTW was just a small focus city.

Also, both CLE and DTW had limited service to cities west of the Mississippi other than LAX, SFO, DEN, MSP, STL, and DFW. Someone in either CLE or DTW who needed to go to cities like SLC, SEA, PDX, TUS, PHX, or ABQ, had to change planes to get there, and the main airport where they changed planes was ORD.

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.

Although Dtw was much smaller. Let's be clear ORD was not NW main hub. Even in the 70s, MSP was the biggest station/hub. In addition NW did not even serve slc,tus and abq until much much later.
 
aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:28 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
airzim wrote:
I'm pretty certain I flew a DC-10 to KUL at one point. I also flew the DC-10s many times between SFO and NRT.

In addition, NW flew the 10s to BOM



Yes, you are correct. In the mid nineties NW flew a DTW-AMS-BOM rotation on a DC-10 30. It didn't last very long. Maybe a year.

More than that.

I flew AMS-BOM in Jul 2004 and Nov 2006
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aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:31 pm

airzim wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
airzim wrote:
I'm pretty certain I flew a DC-10 to KUL at one point. I also flew the DC-10s many times between SFO and NRT.

In addition, NW flew the 10s to BOM



Yes, you are correct. In the mid nineties NW flew a DTW-AMS-BOM rotation on a DC-10 30. It didn't last very long. Maybe a year.


I'm pretty certain they flew longer than a year. If memory serves, the alternated between AMS-DEL and AMS-BOM with KL. In fact once the merger happened, DL took over and flew to both DEL and BOM from AMS. Eventually switched the flight from AMS to CDG and flew it with a 767-300.

Initially they did alernate. But post 9-11 NW took BOM and KL took DEL.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:40 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

You are correct. The India ops started in the summer of 1997. I lived in Minneapolis at the time and knew all things NW. Again, I think the flights only lasted a year.

NW flew the DC-10 to BOM until the mid-2000s. I know that for a fact because I flew BOM-AMS on a DC-10 in January 2005.


AMS-BOM transitionned to A333 September 30th, 2006: https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... 0-aircraft

Last DC-10 service by NW was January 7th, 2007: viewtopic.php?t=403089

They might be a bit off. Cause I flew back BOM-AMS on DC-10 in Nov 2006.
Love the AIXes
 
TW870
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:02 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:


In the 1970s, Northwest's main hub was at ORD, with a secondary hub at MSP. DTW was just a small focus city.

Also, both CLE and DTW had limited service to cities west of the Mississippi other than LAX, SFO, DEN, MSP, STL, and DFW. Someone in either CLE or DTW who needed to go to cities like SLC, SEA, PDX, TUS, PHX, or ABQ, had to change planes to get there, and the main airport where they changed planes was ORD.

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.

Although Dtw was much smaller. Let's be clear ORD was not NW main hub. Even in the 70s, MSP was the biggest station/hub. In addition NW did not even serve slc,tus and abq until much much later.


Just for some numbers, referencing the same April 1974 schedule, the NWA peak-day departure schedule included the following number of flights for the following 3 stations:

1. MSP - 66
2. ORD - 54
3. DTW - 34

Gauge was larger out of ORD as noted above, so seat totals between the two stations are surprisingly close.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:41 pm

TW870 wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:


In the 1970s, Northwest's main hub was at ORD, with a secondary hub at MSP. DTW was just a small focus city.

Also, both CLE and DTW had limited service to cities west of the Mississippi other than LAX, SFO, DEN, MSP, STL, and DFW. Someone in either CLE or DTW who needed to go to cities like SLC, SEA, PDX, TUS, PHX, or ABQ, had to change planes to get there, and the main airport where they changed planes was ORD.

Another reason for wide bodies was because Fed Ex had just a few small freighters, and UPS had none. Most air cargo moved in the cargo compartments of passenger aircraft. DTW and CLE had many auto parts plants, and emergency shipments of auto parts from parts plants in Detroit and Cleveland to assembly plants in other parts of the country enabled airlines to justify flying far more wide bodies to DTW and CLE than would be justified based on passenger volumes alone.

Although Dtw was much smaller. Let's be clear ORD was not NW main hub. Even in the 70s, MSP was the biggest station/hub. In addition NW did not even serve slc,tus and abq until much much later.


Just for some numbers, referencing the same April 1974 schedule, the NWA peak-day departure schedule included the following number of flights for the following 3 stations:

1. MSP - 66
2. ORD - 54
3. DTW - 34

Gauge was larger out of ORD as noted above, so seat totals between the two stations are surprisingly close.


Really? That is a stunningly small number. Departures for the whole airline?
 
TW870
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:11 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
TW870 wrote:
bfitzflyer wrote:
Although Dtw was much smaller. Let's be clear ORD was not NW main hub. Even in the 70s, MSP was the biggest station/hub. In addition NW did not even serve slc,tus and abq until much much later.


Just for some numbers, referencing the same April 1974 schedule, the NWA peak-day departure schedule included the following number of flights for the following 3 stations:

1. MSP - 66
2. ORD - 54
3. DTW - 34

Gauge was larger out of ORD as noted above, so seat totals between the two stations are surprisingly close.


Really? That is a stunningly small number. Departures for the whole airline?


Those numbers are daily departures for the given station. The do not show the size of the entire airline, though, because many flights didn't touch ORD, MSP, or DTW. Before the hub and spoke system, you had segments spread across the system rather than focused all in one place. SEA, GEG, BIL, MKE, CLE, IAD, JFK, and a number of other stations had a significant NW presence, but not in a way that would pump up the numbers at the largest stations. Plus, the long haul operation ate up a lot of block time on the 747 fleet that wouldn't show up at any domestic station, as you had a small number of US 747 departures, and then a ton of point-to-point service within Asia. Plus, the industry just wasn't that big. UA had about 200 a day at ORD at this time, which was thought of as just massive. TW and American had about 100 departures a day from ORD and vied for the number 2 slot. So NW, which was still a niche operator, was pretty impressive with 54.
 
bkflyguy
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:26 pm

TW870 wrote:
As others have noted, NW flew the DC-10 extensively in Asia after the GE-powered DC-10-30s started arriving from Swissair and other carriers in 1992.

The bigger question is if Northwest ever scheduled the Pratt powered DC-10-40s to Asia. If they did, it would have been in a very short window in the 1970s. I swear I have seen NW advertisements for the DC-10 in Asia, but after surveying schedules from 1974, 1976, 1978, and 1980, I see no DC-10 transpac service. DC-10s flew west coast to Alaska and Hawaii, but nothing that I can find further to the West. And once NW built up its Europe flying out of BOS and DTW, the whole DC-10-40 fleet was occupied with domestic and Europe. Can anyone find examples of NW DC-10-40 flying in Asia?


Were the GE-powered DC-10s bigger engines or did they -30s have extra fuel capacity? I'm just trying to understand the performance difference between the two. As I recall, Nyrop wanted the DC-10-40 with the PW engines for commonality with the PW-powered 747s.
 
GoldenState787
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:31 pm

aarbee wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
NW flew the DC-10 to BOM until the mid-2000s. I know that for a fact because I flew BOM-AMS on a DC-10 in January 2005.


AMS-BOM transitionned to A333 September 30th, 2006: https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... 0-aircraft

Last DC-10 service by NW was January 7th, 2007: viewtopic.php?t=403089

They might be a bit off. Cause I flew back BOM-AMS on DC-10 in Nov 2006.


That might have been around the very end of DC-10 services, as I remember seeing an NW A330 at BOM the following month, Dec 2006.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:56 pm

bkflyguy wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Were the GE-powered DC-10s bigger engines or did they -30s have extra fuel capacity? I'm just trying to understand the performance difference between the two. As I recall, Nyrop wanted the DC-10-40 with the PW engines for commonality with the PW-powered 747s.


The DC-10-40s we talk about in this thread were origanlly conceived and sold as DC-10-20s but because MDC launched the DC-10-30 Nyrop asked for the change from series 20 to 40 in order to give the impression NW has the latest.
Physically speaking, the Pratts engines are larger than the GEs. Compared to the GE CF6-50C I believe they were a bit more powerful. Over the years, GE produced more powerful and fuel efficient versions of its engine with the CF6-50C1, C2 and C2B. Northwest's DC-10-40s were rather early production aircraft whereas the series 30 acquired second-hand from 1992 were largely late production aircraft including all the latest updates in aerodynamic, engine design and take off weight. Some were -30ERs, that is of the highest take off weight, with more fuel and more powerful engines originally delivered to Japan Air System, Thai, Swissair.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:05 pm

I flew on a DC-10-40 from MSP-SFO way back in 1990. I also flew on them several times between MSP- DTW. I think they used the 40's mostly domestically or to Hawaii. I believe NW also used the DC-10-40 on some European ops, but as they acquired second hand DC-10-30's they tended to use them much more for international flights.

If anyone can speak knowledgeably about this would i would be interested. Did NW fly the DC-10-40 extensively internationally?
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TW870
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:22 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I flew on a DC-10-40 from MSP-SFO way back in 1990. I also flew on them several times between MSP- DTW. I think they used the 40's mostly domestically or to Hawaii. I believe NW also used the DC-10-40 on some European ops, but as they acquired second hand DC-10-30's they tended to use them much more for international flights.

If anyone can speak knowledgeably about this would i would be interested. Did NW fly the DC-10-40 extensively internationally?


Yes. The DC-10-40s flew what I would call the second iteration of European operations in the 1980s. The first phase, coming out of the later-1970s, was on 747s to Northern Europe. But by the mid-1980s, they built a more conventional network - primarily out of Boston - to the larger European capitals such as LGW, FRA, CDG, and AMS. The DC-10-40 performed much of that work. But as you noted, the-40s also flew extensively in domestic. My first -40 flight was in 1983 on MSP-PHX. In subsequent years I flew it on MSP-LAX, SEA, and SFO. It operated all of those routes until the -40s were replaced by the 757-300 after 9/11. When I was an SFO-based flight attendant for United in the year 2000, the tech boom made the loads on UA really heavy, and thus my parents had to buy tickets to come visit me that summer. They flew both ways from MSP on NW DC-10-40s.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:31 pm

TW870 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I flew on a DC-10-40 from MSP-SFO way back in 1990. I also flew on them several times between MSP- DTW. I think they used the 40's mostly domestically or to Hawaii. I believe NW also used the DC-10-40 on some European ops, but as they acquired second hand DC-10-30's they tended to use them much more for international flights.

If anyone can speak knowledgeably about this would i would be interested. Did NW fly the DC-10-40 extensively internationally?


Yes. The DC-10-40s flew what I would call the second iteration of European operations in the 1980s. The first phase, coming out of the later-1970s, was on 747s to Northern Europe. But by the mid-1980s, they built a more conventional network - primarily out of Boston - to the larger European capitals such as LGW, FRA, CDG, and AMS. The DC-10-40 performed much of that work. But as you noted, the-40s also flew extensively in domestic. My first -40 flight was in 1983 on MSP-PHX. In subsequent years I flew it on MSP-LAX, SEA, and SFO. It operated all of those routes until the -40s were replaced by the 757-300 after 9/11. When I was an SFO-based flight attendant for United in the year 2000, the tech boom made the loads on UA really heavy, and thus my parents had to buy tickets to come visit me that summer. They flew both ways from MSP on NW DC-10-40s.



Thank You.
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bfitzflyer
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:06 pm

TW870 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
I flew on a DC-10-40 from MSP-SFO way back in 1990. I also flew on them several times between MSP- DTW. I think they used the 40's mostly domestically or to Hawaii. I believe NW also used the DC-10-40 on some European ops, but as they acquired second hand DC-10-30's they tended to use them much more for international flights.

If anyone can speak knowledgeably about this would i would be interested. Did NW fly the DC-10-40 extensively internationally?


Yes. The DC-10-40s flew what I would call the second iteration of European operations in the 1980s. The first phase, coming out of the later-1970s, was on 747s to Northern Europe. But by the mid-1980s, they built a more conventional network - primarily out of Boston - to the larger European capitals such as LGW, FRA, CDG, and AMS. The DC-10-40 performed much of that work. But as you noted, the-40s also flew extensively in domestic. My first -40 flight was in 1983 on MSP-PHX. In subsequent years I flew it on MSP-LAX, SEA, and SFO. It operated all of those routes until the -40s were replaced by the 757-300 after 9/11. When I was an SFO-based flight attendant for United in the year 2000, the tech boom made the loads on UA really heavy, and thus my parents had to buy tickets to come visit me that summer. They flew both ways from MSP on NW DC-10-40s.


Once Boston was no longer an international gateway/hub. The DC-10's operated many of the routes to Europe out of DTW and MSP. and also AMS flights from MEM, SEA, IAD(at times). The network then started to resemble what you see today from DL/NW to AMS.
 
Western727
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:27 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
bkflyguy wrote:
TW870 wrote:
Were the GE-powered DC-10s bigger engines or did they -30s have extra fuel capacity? I'm just trying to understand the performance difference between the two. As I recall, Nyrop wanted the DC-10-40 with the PW engines for commonality with the PW-powered 747s.


The DC-10-40s we talk about in this thread were origanlly conceived and sold as DC-10-20s but because MDC launched the DC-10-30 Nyrop asked for the change from series 20 to 40 in order to give the impression NW has the latest.
Physically speaking, the Pratts engines are larger than the GEs. Compared to the GE CF6-50C I believe they were a bit more powerful. Over the years, GE produced more powerful and fuel efficient versions of its engine with the CF6-50C1, C2 and C2B. Northwest's DC-10-40s were rather early production aircraft whereas the series 30 acquired second-hand from 1992 were largely late production aircraft including all the latest updates in aerodynamic, engine design and take off weight. Some were -30ERs, that is of the highest take off weight, with more fuel and more powerful engines originally delivered to Japan Air System, Thai, Swissair.


Thanks, SpaceshipDC10, for this. I remember after a few years of flying on the -40s (and not yet having flown on a -10 or -30 series) with NW, I saw the second-hand -30s being "lesser" aircraft because of what I saw as "weaker" #2 engines given the non-bulbous intakes and slimmer CF6s. I was then puzzled at why NW flew the -30 on the LGW-MSP route and not the -40 after down-gauging from the 741/2. I later found out why here on a.net some 25 years ago, so it's good to be reminded of the specifics. What would we do without a.net, huh?
Jack @ AUS
 
blrsea
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:56 pm

koambs wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
airzim wrote:
I'm pretty certain I flew a DC-10 to KUL at one point. I also flew the DC-10s many times between SFO and NRT.

In addition, NW flew the 10s to BOM


Do you know where these 10s flew in from to BOM? Was it AMS? Do you also know if these aircraft operated in 1997 or 2002 on that route?


Probably AMS. I flew a NW DC10 from DEL to AMS in 2000.


At one time, BOM-AMS-SEA and DEL-AMS-SEA were the only one stop flights between India and Seattle, and within 22 hours, one of the shortest too. Both legs were on DC-10s with 2-5-2 seating if I recall correctly. NWA operated BOM-AMS-SEA while KLM operated DEL-AMS. NW BOM-AMS-SEA was one of my first few international flights.
 
TLG
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:10 pm

airzim wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
airzim wrote:
I'm pretty certain I flew a DC-10 to KUL at one point. I also flew the DC-10s many times between SFO and NRT.

In addition, NW flew the 10s to BOM



Yes, you are correct. In the mid nineties NW flew a DTW-AMS-BOM rotation on a DC-10 30. It didn't last very long. Maybe a year.


I'm pretty certain they flew longer than a year. If memory serves, the alternated between AMS-DEL and AMS-BOM with KL. In fact once the merger happened, DL took over and flew to both DEL and BOM from AMS. Eventually switched the flight from AMS to CDG and flew it with a 767-300.


I used to fly NW68 DTW-AMS occasionally in the early 2000's. At that time it was operated by a B744. The aircraft continued to BOM from AMS.
 
aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:30 pm

GoldenState787 wrote:
aarbee wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

AMS-BOM transitionned to A333 September 30th, 2006: https://www.aviationpros.com/home/press ... 0-aircraft

Last DC-10 service by NW was January 7th, 2007: viewtopic.php?t=403089

They might be a bit off. Cause I flew back BOM-AMS on DC-10 in Nov 2006.


That might have been around the very end of DC-10 services, as I remember seeing an NW A330 at BOM the following month, Dec 2006.

Very well could be. As the link from SpaceshipDC10 suggests it was around that time. But they are a bit off on the dates for sure.
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aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:32 pm

blrsea wrote:
koambs wrote:
airboss787 wrote:

Do you know where these 10s flew in from to BOM? Was it AMS? Do you also know if these aircraft operated in 1997 or 2002 on that route?


Probably AMS. I flew a NW DC10 from DEL to AMS in 2000.


At one time, BOM-AMS-SEA and DEL-AMS-SEA were the only one stop flights between India and Seattle, and within 22 hours, one of the shortest too. Both legs were on DC-10s with 2-5-2 seating if I recall correctly. NWA operated BOM-AMS-SEA while KLM operated DEL-AMS. NW BOM-AMS-SEA was one of my first few international flights.

If I remember correctly, these one-stoppers were not truely one-stoppers as one had to de-plane at AMS and no guarantee of the same aircraft.
Love the AIXes
 
blrsea
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:03 am

aarbee wrote:
blrsea wrote:
koambs wrote:

Probably AMS. I flew a NW DC10 from DEL to AMS in 2000.


At one time, BOM-AMS-SEA and DEL-AMS-SEA were the only one stop flights between India and Seattle, and within 22 hours, one of the shortest too. Both legs were on DC-10s with 2-5-2 seating if I recall correctly. NWA operated BOM-AMS-SEA while KLM operated DEL-AMS. NW BOM-AMS-SEA was one of my first few international flights.

If I remember correctly, these one-stoppers were not truely one-stoppers as one had to de-plane at AMS and no guarantee of the same aircraft.


Yes, one had to get down at AMS and then board a different aircraft. It does feel good to get down and stretch legs after 9-10 hr flights :)
 
Airnerd
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:37 am

I flew NW DC10s SFO-NRT-BKK in December 1989.
 
superjeff
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:43 am

CRJ200flyer wrote:
WA707atMSP and TW870 - really appreciate both of your detailed replies. Never realized ORD was once that large of a station for NW or thought of the cargo aspect of the operation. Thanks again



It is really true. I flew HNL-ORD on a Northwest 707-300 in 1969 and they had a bunch of service in and out of ORD then (so did TWA at the time).
 
aarbee
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:05 pm

blrsea wrote:
aarbee wrote:
blrsea wrote:

At one time, BOM-AMS-SEA and DEL-AMS-SEA were the only one stop flights between India and Seattle, and within 22 hours, one of the shortest too. Both legs were on DC-10s with 2-5-2 seating if I recall correctly. NWA operated BOM-AMS-SEA while KLM operated DEL-AMS. NW BOM-AMS-SEA was one of my first few international flights.

If I remember correctly, these one-stoppers were not truely one-stoppers as one had to de-plane at AMS and no guarantee of the same aircraft.


Yes, one had to get down at AMS and then board a different aircraft. It does feel good to get down and stretch legs after 9-10 hr flights :)

No doubt about that.

My point was it was NO different for a fellow flying SEA-AMS-BOM ("Direct" flight) and BOS-AMS-BOM, as the fellow in SEA-AMS flight , still had to deplane with carryons, redo the gate boarding after 3-4 hours. So the same/direct flight was just a sham.
Love the AIXes
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Did the Northwest DC-10 ever make it to its Asian network?

Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:11 am

The DC-10-30 were acquired for Atlantic purposes - NW did not intend to operate them across the Pacific. Additional -400 and secondhand -200 were acquired to transition the Pacific network to all 747 flying. This changed during the SARS epidemic, when NW initially placed the DC-10-30 on SFO-NRT. Declining Pacific revenues/profits lead to NW adding the A330-200 to its fleet, to replace the 747/DC-10 flights from SEA, PDX and SFO.

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