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seat38a
Topic Author
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:29 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:06 am

olle wrote:
But in this case I would argue that the leasing company is not delivering the product, the airplane.

I I do a leasing for acar and the leasing company cannot deliver I would not pay.

If I take a bank loan for purchasing a car, it would be my problem.


Yeah I've been looking at things from how car leases and purchases work. I'm surprised how little "consumer protection" there is for buying a plane.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5094
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:12 am

SWADawg wrote:
seat38a wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Wasn't Southwest planning to use them for their Hawaii flights? If so, I'm guessing they would have preferred to use them.


Their CEO has already said that drop in demand feels like it was after 911. The MAX is probably the last thing he wants right now.


I can assure you that Gary Kelly wants the MAX back. Just because Covid 19 is causing future bookings to drop doesn’t change anything from Southwest’s desire to get these planes back in the air. Remember, WN has at least 30-40 -700’s that are coming up on heavy maintenance checks that WN had been planning to retire from the fleet prior to the grounding. With the MAX back in service, WN would have much more fleet flexibility to park older -700’s and deploy new MAX-8’s in their place.

WN returned a few -700's and they were snapped up by United. So WN is making do without them, So? I would imagine Nobody would be happier to see the Max return more than they would,
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:51 am

olle wrote:
But in this case I would argue that the leasing company is not delivering the product, the airplane.

I I do a leasing for acar and the leasing company cannot deliver I would not pay.

If I take a bank loan for purchasing a car, it would be my problem.

Lease payments are typically due on planes that have been delivered and are in the airline's fleet. Leasing companies don't usually have piles of cash lying around that they use to buy planes from the manufacturers. They're using investors' funds, and said investors don't stop expecting a return just because Boeing bungled it badly. For all you know, a mutual fund you own has invested some of its cash with Avalon. How much of a haircut are you willing to take so that Avalon can stop collecting lease payments and suspend paying dividends to your mutual fund?

Planes that came out of the assembly line after the model was grounded have not been delivered, and no payment is made or due on them (other than Boeing paying its suppliers)
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:56 am

seat38a wrote:
Yeah I've been looking at things from how car leases and purchases work. I'm surprised how little "consumer protection" there is for buying a plane.

Consumer protections exist because most consumers can't afford anything near the legal firepower the companies they do business with can. Manufacturers, lessors, and airlines all can and do retain excellent law firms and need no legal protection from one another. They can (afford to) duck it out in court.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 744
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:34 am

blueflyer wrote:
seat38a wrote:
Yeah I've been looking at things from how car leases and purchases work. I'm surprised how little "consumer protection" there is for buying a plane.

Consumer protections exist because most consumers can't afford anything near the legal firepower the companies they do business with can. Manufacturers, lessors, and airlines all can and do retain excellent law firms and need no legal protection from one another. They can (afford to) duck it out in court.


Also almost every good insurance policy covers the costs to defend against unjustified claims. This is therefore standard defense in any case so that if your side wins (the defendant) you do not have to pay anything. So there is a lot of protection when you know where to look for.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:36 am

I think those airlines with MAX orders that will survive the current crises will be hoping some of their rivals with A320 orders go bust. That way they get to dump the MAX and get the A320 on short notice. :scratchchin: :duck: :stirthepot:
 
olle
Posts: 2482
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:48 am

With oil prices in free fall let see how much savings max and neo creates in the end.

The advantage will be that with the new long range nb the smaller wb will be in seroius problem.

Who will now buy any 338 or 778 when you can buy 321xlr? The business case for wb getting smaller, in the same way that 350, 787, 777 killing the dedicated freight it seems.
 
JoergAtADN
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:06 am

Glad are the airlines, which have not yet signed a compensation agreement with Boeing regarding the MAX delays. Because they can now cancel their MAX orders for free!
 
346fetish
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:35 am

COVID-19 is the new nightmare within the MAX nightmare. Poor booking velocity in many parts of the world leading to great uncertainty for the near future. How do you plan for an imminent return of the MAX? Must be a total mess for network planners.
"BA have got waterfalls in their head office. The only time we have waterfalls in the Ryanair office is when the toilet leaks."
 
basspaul
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:23 pm

oschkosch wrote:
crimsonchin wrote:
ojjunior wrote:


Yes! This screams for new marketing claims to be used.

Introducing the 737 max, the most sterile plane ever flown.
Boeing, making a clean plane even cleaner.
Enjoy a maximum sterile atmosphere on our new 737 max.


I'd go for calling it a "All new, clean seat design".
 
hohd
Posts: 943
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:19 pm

All airlines will take the 737 MAX hit compared to this virus, this is decimating travel all around. It would take about an year to stabilize and by then MAX (or whatever the new name Boeing has) should be ready. For example, oil prices are also tanking which means fuel costs have come down drastically, but it is no comfort for any airline either.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 748
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:32 pm

At least in the US there's no evidence that air travel is in a free fall albeit that could change in a heartbeat. Airlines make money flying people and their economics are such they need high load factors. If load factors fall they must either park planes, hard to do with a newer fleet that has lease/debt payments or fly around half full planes. Neither scenario is good for airlines. The Max situation has little bearing on the economic reality airlines face.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Airlines Secretly Glad For the MAX Delay Now With Travel In Freefall?

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:41 am

oschkosch wrote:
Boeing, making a clean plane even cleaner.


Beautiful!

To become specific:
Suppose for a B757 a D check is due, but life is left in the frame. At this low oil price, but also low interest rate: Is it cheaper to do the D-check and fly the B757 or cheaper to fly a Max?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

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