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Bealine251
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:47 pm

I have always wondered. Is this type of price just for the right to land there or does it include fees like air traffic control etc or are these all added on as extra flight by flight charges?
 
CrawleyBen
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:03 pm

LHR01 wrote:
Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million - https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 6c3c2e763d

The new undisclosed airline hasn't been released/published.
My guess would be Vistara. Thoughts?


Vistara have secured slots at London Gatwick according to CH-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... wick-slots)

I would imagine they will head off to LHR at some point or other if it's not them who have got the Air New Zealand slots.

Cheers

Ben
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:28 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Was this a bad deal now that Flybe has filed for bankruptcy and their slots will come back to the market? Could water down the price a bit.


Flybe slots revert back to BA
 
homeland545
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:59 am

How does this take place? Does NZ use an agency, or do they send on an ”email blast” to airlines? Just wondering.
AM2082
 
zkncj
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:10 am

homeland545 wrote:
How does this take place? Does NZ use an agency, or do they send on an ”email blast” to airlines? Just wondering.


Would say it’s more word of mouth, e.g. NZ last year that were are stopping LHR from October 2020. That alone would of likely got them inquiries from other airlines asking to purchase there slots.

They previously sold there other LHR slot pair to CX, I would say ‘friends’ of NZ got first offer, if they could match the highest price.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:13 am

RWA380 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would bet Emirates. A wild card could be JetBlue.


I'm surprised it took until reply 28 for anyone to mention B6. While it's a big price tag, B6 made some large statements when they announced London, which lead me to believe they were looking at LHR.

While I know many have speculated that B6 would end up at LGW or STN, I've always felt B6 would do what it could to attain LHR slots. I hope it is B6. But the arrival time seem almost unusable for NYC/BOS flights with leaving at 11:30 pm.


Oman Air or Gulf Air paid $75M for an early morning arrival. $27M doesn't seem too unreasonable.
 
Obzerva
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:33 am

I’m not sure why so many people are saying they’ve probably sold it to a Star Alliance partner.
It’s a business, not a friendship group, they’ll sell to whoever stumps up the highest amount of cash.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:23 am

Obzerva wrote:
I’m not sure why so many people are saying they’ve probably sold it to a Star Alliance partner.
It’s a business, not a friendship group, they’ll sell to whoever stumps up the highest amount of cash.


NZ sold their other pair to CX when NZ dropped HKG-LHR, I think initially it was leased to CX.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:57 am

EK413 wrote:
I don’t understand why NZ sold a valuable asset such as LHR slots especially with the 3rd runway dead in the water.

If they didn’t have plans to utilise the slots, lease them out a carrier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My understanding is that you can't lease them out forever. If awarded or purchased a slot, you only keep it if you use it for X number of days every Y amount of time. If another carrier uses your slot then you don't get to count that use against your count. Go long enough without using the slot and it goes back into the pool to be distributed. So they're more valuable sold than leased.

In the NZ aviation thread it was also mentioned that this would basically cover the cost of decommissioning the Air NZ base in London. So it isn't like they're making a big cash gain for the year off this.
 
mutu
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:15 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Was this a bad deal now that Flybe has filed for bankruptcy and their slots will come back to the market? Could water down the price a bit.


Those slots likely revert back to BA as they are remedy slots from the BA BD deal and I dont think anyone has yet operated them for sufficient time to keep them
 
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EK413
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:19 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
EK413 wrote:
I don’t understand why NZ sold a valuable asset such as LHR slots especially with the 3rd runway dead in the water.

If they didn’t have plans to utilise the slots, lease them out a carrier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My understanding is that you can't lease them out forever. If awarded or purchased a slot, you only keep it if you use it for X number of days every Y amount of time. If another carrier uses your slot then you don't get to count that use against your count. Go long enough without using the slot and it goes back into the pool to be distributed. So they're more valuable sold than leased.

In the NZ aviation thread it was also mentioned that this would basically cover the cost of decommissioning the Air NZ base in London. So it isn't like they're making a big cash gain for the year off this.

Thanks for clarifying, I understand NZ have come to the conclusion LHR is no longer viable therefore offloaded the slots with their focus ULR & point to point such as ORD, EWR, IAH etc.

Interested to know how QF are getting around it with 2 leased to I believe BA if I’m not mistaken. Recall QF at one point used 2 LHR slots on a LHR-MAN route to retain the slots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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mattyfitzg
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:25 am

EK413 wrote:
Recall QF at one point used 2 LHR slots on a LHR-MAN route to retain the slots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct, using a Flightline Bae146.

BA usually use their own metal for slot sitters, the Leeds Bradford flight usually takes the hit on that one with a very irregular, inconsistent schedule.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:10 am

I don’t know how slot allocation works, but does a vendor of slots have a say in to whom they are sold? Or, let me put my question another way: when an airline divests itself of slots at a slot-constrained airport, does the slot coordinator get involved with the transaction in any way?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
anstar
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:12 am

GoldenState787 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Emirates is interested in increasing its LHR flights.


Wow, even when it already has 6 daily flights, all on A380s? Not to mention 3 daily A380 flights to LGW? Never knew demand between LHR and DXB would be THAT massive.


Well given they fly 9 x A380's to London every day that in itself says there is demand doesn't it?
 
anstar
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:13 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Was this a bad deal now that Flybe has filed for bankruptcy and their slots will come back to the market? Could water down the price a bit.


Wern't the FLYBE slots ring fenced to certain routes like ABZ/EDI/MAN and if not used they go back to BA.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:02 am

homeland545 wrote:
How does this take place? Does NZ use an agency, or do they send on an ”email blast” to airlines? Just wondering.


Boeing had been delivering the B747-200B for over a decade and Qantas had already received 19 of them (and 3 B747-200M) before ANZ began to receive their first B747.

On August 25, 1982 Air New Zealand took delivery of their 5th new Boeing 747-200B (having also purchased 9 B737s in previous years). The 747-200B had a still air range of 6,560 nmi.
AKL-LAX-LHR is 5,652 nm + 4,741 nm = 10,393 nm.
AKL-HKG-LHR is 4,943 nm + 5,209 nm = 10,152 nm.

Upon receipt of the full fleet ANZ was decided to end their codeshare with BOAC and being flying to London via LAX.

ANZ would go on to purchase 4 more B747-400s from 14. Dec. 1989 to 31. Oct. 1998.

On Oct 22, 2019 ANZ announced that they were discontinuing flights to London as of Oct 20,2020 after which they would add EWR as their 6th nonstop destination in the US after adding ORD and IAH since 2015.

I doubt that an "email blast" was necessary, as this would be considered a historic route change.
 
mutu
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:12 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Clackers wrote:
If I was In charge of BAA, I would restrict landing slots to airlines like EK and even BA ngl.

It is time the owner of the airport actually stood up for themselves. Airlines you don't like = don't let them land. Trumpian, yes, but it works. Until they pay up more Wonga.


That's not how it works in the UK, where airports got little choice in who gets the slots. t.


I am not at all sure that's how it works in the UK . LHR slots are allocated by a slot coordination committee comprising HAL and the airlines. Traffic rights may be subject to government negotiation of bilateral etc. But not slots themselves?
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:06 pm

Airport Coordination does the slot coordination for various countries - https://www.acl-uk.org/

Essentially if you have a slot in one season (there are two per year, winter and summer covering around half a year each), you apply for it in the next season and are likely to get it as you've been using it. You need to use a slot 80% of time or lose it.

You're not technically allowed to "sell" a slot. You're supposed to stop using it and it will go back in the pool for the coordinator to allocate to whomever they see fit, after seeing who applies for it. However, LHR is so congested that the sale of slots has been going on for ages and a blind eye is turned as it's not technically illegal.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
zkncj
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:43 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
homeland545 wrote:
How does this take place? Does NZ use an agency, or do they send on an ”email blast” to airlines? Just wondering.


Boeing had been delivering the B747-200B for over a decade and Qantas had already received 19 of them (and 3 B747-200M) before ANZ began to receive their first B747.

On August 25, 1982 Air New Zealand took delivery of their 5th new Boeing 747-200B (having also purchased 9 B737s in previous years). The 747-200B had a still air range of 6,560 nmi.
AKL-LAX-LHR is 5,652 nm + 4,741 nm = 10,393 nm.
AKL-HKG-LHR is 4,943 nm + 5,209 nm = 10,152 nm.

Upon receipt of the full fleet ANZ was decided to end their codeshare with BOAC and being flying to London via LAX.

ANZ would go on to purchase 4 more B747-400s from 14. Dec. 1989 to 31. Oct. 1998.

On Oct 22, 2019 ANZ announced that they were discontinuing flights to London as of Oct 20,2020 after which they would add EWR as their 6th nonstop destination in the US after adding ORD and IAH since 2015.

I doubt that an "email blast" was necessary, as this would be considered a historic route change.


NZ started LAX-LGW with the DC10s... they would be crewed by BA crews on the LAX-LGW sector, and NZ crews on the LAX-AKL.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:53 pm

RWA380 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I would bet Emirates. A wild card could be JetBlue.


I'm surprised it took until reply 28 for anyone to mention B6. While it's a big price tag, B6 made some large statements when they announced London, which lead me to believe they were looking at LHR.

While I know many have speculated that B6 would end up at LGW or STN, I've always felt B6 would do what it could to attain LHR slots. I hope it is B6. But the arrival time seem almost unusable for NYC/BOS flights with leaving at 11:30 pm.


Not so sure that’s a bad thing, especially for B6, BA’s last flight from BOS leaves at 22.50, VS at 22.10 so 23.30 is not much worse than that, plus if B6 markets correctly, it can market the domestic connections as 11.30 will sweep up most of those and it’s a very short walk from C to E to do it too. As a foothold, might not be a bad starting point. Expensive, yes, but you have to start somewhere and I am sure the cost will get amortized in their accounts.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
330lover
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:53 pm

anstar wrote:
GoldenState787 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Emirates is interested in increasing its LHR flights.


Wow, even when it already has 6 daily flights, all on A380s? Not to mention 3 daily A380 flights to LGW? Never knew demand between LHR and DXB would be THAT massive.


Well given they fly 9 x A380's to London every day that in itself says there is demand doesn't it?


No. Not necessarily. EK has so much 380's that they have no other choice than send them somewhere.
And yes, LON is a big market, airlines like EK will always send their 380's on status routes. Even if a B777 (or others) would perfectly do the job, they still would send the A380, just for their image.
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edealinfo
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:45 pm

LHR01 wrote:
Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million - https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton ... 6c3c2e763d

The new undisclosed airline hasn't been released/published.
My guess would be Vistara. Thoughts?

It likely Can’t be Vistara for 3 reasons:
1. The sale of the slots was concluded in Dec 2019. Vistara almost certainly would have announced it by now if it was the buyer.

2. The slots would be effective October 29 or for winter 2020. Vistara has planes now which they likely won’t want to sit on the ground until almost November.

3. Vistara may have cash to lease a slot but they don’t have cash lying around to fork out $27 M to buy the slot. Besides the geniuses at Vistara we’re betting on free slots for over a year. How would it look if they now paid $27M. Indians don’t like to lose face. As their executive said, they will continue “to hope” to get slots. The lottery is big business in India and relying on lottery for magical solutions is not uncommon especially for the geniuses at Vistara

Nevertheless thanks for sharing the article that has a lot of good stuff. Really fascinating.
 
raylee67
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:00 pm

mutu wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Was this a bad deal now that Flybe has filed for bankruptcy and their slots will come back to the market? Could water down the price a bit.


Those slots likely revert back to BA as they are remedy slots from the BA BD deal and I dont think anyone has yet operated them for sufficient time to keep them

Ah, those will go to BA? Can those slots be used for intercontinental flights or those are restricted to props? It would be a gold mine for BA if they can be used for intercontinental routes.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:20 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Ah, those will go to BA? Can those slots be used for intercontinental flights or those are restricted to props? It would be a gold mine for BA if they can be used for intercontinental routes.


As far as I know those slots are reserved for certain routes. The type of aircraft is irrelevant, but it's just done to prevent any airline from getting a monopoly on a route. If that's the case and it's a busy and profitable route some slots are to be given up to the competition. Such slots cannot easily be used for other destinations.

This is rather common. Any airline wants to get slots at Amsterdam for example? You can just get them, they're available. Only condition is that they're being used for flights to Birmingham, they cannot be used for flights to other destinations. These were in fact KLM slots, but since it was decided the Amsterdam - Birmingham route needed competition they were to give them up. So far no airline has reported for those slots, even EasyJet doesn't want them and they're very keen on Amsterdam slots.
 
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767Forever
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:28 pm

What about China Airlines? Their LGW-TPE route is doing very well and it’s not a secret they want to move this route to LHR
 
Gasman
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:41 pm

zkncj wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
homeland545 wrote:
How does this take place? Does NZ use an agency, or do they send on an ”email blast” to airlines? Just wondering.


Boeing had been delivering the B747-200B for over a decade and Qantas had already received 19 of them (and 3 B747-200M) before ANZ began to receive their first B747.

On August 25, 1982 Air New Zealand took delivery of their 5th new Boeing 747-200B (having also purchased 9 B737s in previous years). The 747-200B had a still air range of 6,560 nmi.
AKL-LAX-LHR is 5,652 nm + 4,741 nm = 10,393 nm.
AKL-HKG-LHR is 4,943 nm + 5,209 nm = 10,152 nm.

Upon receipt of the full fleet ANZ was decided to end their codeshare with BOAC and being flying to London via LAX.

ANZ would go on to purchase 4 more B747-400s from 14. Dec. 1989 to 31. Oct. 1998.

On Oct 22, 2019 ANZ announced that they were discontinuing flights to London as of Oct 20,2020 after which they would add EWR as their 6th nonstop destination in the US after adding ORD and IAH since 2015.

I doubt that an "email blast" was necessary, as this would be considered a historic route change.


NZ started LAX-LGW with the DC10s... they would be crewed by BA crews on the LAX-LGW sector, and NZ crews on the LAX-AKL.


Small point, but the BA crewed NZ DC-10s flew to LHR. It was a somewhat sporadic service, and I'm not sure if it continued until the retirement of the DC-10s in 1982.

The first "real" service to the UK for NZ was with the 742s, and it was then that they were relegated to LGW. It was a massive bone of contention, especially after NZ through ties to "mother" Britain had felt somewhat coerced into outfitting the 742 fleet with RR engines - as opposed to the GE variant which they would have purchased had political factors not come into play (including access to EU markets for New Zealand's dairy exports).
 
UAUA
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:03 pm

zkncj wrote:
SoEWR wrote:
When will NZ start flying direct from AKL to LHR. Are they waiting for the A350 or will they use a long range 787?


London is now longer on NZ’s near term plans, there cost base doesn’t work for 1-stop services, once LHR stops there only 1 stop service is an 1-2x weekly AKL-RAR-LAX which is underwritten by government funding.

There current focus is non-stop point to point services to countries on the Pacific Rim.

AKL-EWR, is as long as you’ll see NZ go in the near term. Which is pushing there code 2 789s to the limit.


When they have the right aircraft I wonder if they will start AKL-LHR nonstop?
My former profile name was United Airline.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:10 pm

There had been rumors that PR was acquiring new slots at LHR to improve their connectivity and performance on the route. However, $27M even for a pair of slots is pretty steep for them, considering their current fiscal situation.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
edealinfo
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:20 pm

why does Vistara have to shell out $27 M for slots when it can get it for cheap? You know an Indians always get the best deal.

Flybe grounding could give Vistara an elusive slot at London Heathrow
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 10241.html
 
edealinfo
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:21 pm

Devilfish wrote:
There had been rumors that PR was acquiring new slots at LHR to improve their connectivity and performance on the route. However, $27M even for a pair of slots is pretty steep for them, considering their current fiscal situation.


who or what is PR? Puerto Rican airlines? Paraguay Airlines?
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:24 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
There had been rumors that PR was acquiring new slots at LHR to improve their connectivity and performance on the route. However, $27M even for a pair of slots is pretty steep for them, considering their current fiscal situation.


who or what is PR? Puerto Rican airlines? Paraguay Airlines?


PR = Philippine Airlines. They fly MNL-LHR 5x weekly.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:40 pm

My guess is JetBlue, they’re in the market for TATL flying and where else to draw away corporate traffic than LHR
 
Antarius
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:26 pm

UAUA wrote:
zkncj wrote:
SoEWR wrote:
When will NZ start flying direct from AKL to LHR. Are they waiting for the A350 or will they use a long range 787?


London is now longer on NZ’s near term plans, there cost base doesn’t work for 1-stop services, once LHR stops there only 1 stop service is an 1-2x weekly AKL-RAR-LAX which is underwritten by government funding.

There current focus is non-stop point to point services to countries on the Pacific Rim.

AKL-EWR, is as long as you’ll see NZ go in the near term. Which is pushing there code 2 789s to the limit.


When they have the right aircraft I wonder if they will start AKL-LHR nonstop?


LHR-AKL is a thousand miles longer than LHR-SYD. That might be a stretch for even the winner of projext sunrise. Additionally, I do not think there is sufficient business travel to justify a premium it would take to make this a reality.

IMO, they will not.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Galwayman
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:27 pm

This is an excellent move by NZ, no point in obsessing with flights to London for ego purposes , Qantas should watch and learn

Hopefully the slots will go to Emirates , who are after BA probably Heathrow’s most important and relevant airline for global connectivity
 
Antarius
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:32 pm

Galwayman wrote:
This is an excellent move by NZ, no point in obsessing with flights to London for ego purposes , Qantas should watch and learn

Hopefully the slots will go to Emirates , who are after BA probably Heathrow’s most important and relevant airline for global connectivity


I don't think QF is doing it for ego purposes. Every report has indicated that LHR-PER has exceeded expectations. SYD is a major business center, so there is a case to be made.

That said, AKL is not SYD and it is a lot further. So what makes sense for QF may not for NZ.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
redroo
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:26 am

Antarius wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
This is an excellent move by NZ, no point in obsessing with flights to London for ego purposes , Qantas should watch and learn

Hopefully the slots will go to Emirates , who are after BA probably Heathrow’s most important and relevant airline for global connectivity


I don't think QF is doing it for ego purposes. Every report has indicated that LHR-PER has exceeded expectations. SYD is a major business center, so there is a case to be made.

That said, AKL is not SYD and it is a lot further. So what makes sense for QF may not for NZ.


The whole NZ economy is a fraction the size the Aussie economy - less than 10pc. It’s even smaller than Western Australia’s economy. Very different beasts.

The QF9/10 goes out full almost every day and is not cheap to fly on compared to the one stop options. Yet it is extremely popular. Profitable from day 1 and highest NPS on the network.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:26 am

Antarius wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
This is an excellent move by NZ, no point in obsessing with flights to London for ego purposes , Qantas should watch and learn

Hopefully the slots will go to Emirates , who are after BA probably Heathrow’s most important and relevant airline for global connectivity


I don't think QF is doing it for ego purposes. Every report has indicated that LHR-PER has exceeded expectations. SYD is a major business center, so there is a case to be made.

That said, AKL is not SYD and it is a lot further. So what makes sense for QF may not for NZ.



hang on just a second. QF isn't going to fly a great circle route. They want to avoid headwinds so they're flying up over the pacific first.
which would be very similar to what Air NZ would need to do. They've even done the route proving flights so we know its doable.
but its not simply the existing flight path cutting out a fuel stop. The great circle mapper, is over simplifying this mission.
For a commonwealth country to ditch London ... especially when QF has done all the research for them.... is beyond belief but
it appears they only want to focus on taking Australians and Kiwis to the Americas.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:01 am

Antarius wrote:
UAUA wrote:
zkncj wrote:

London is now longer on NZ’s near term plans, there cost base doesn’t work for 1-stop services, once LHR stops there only 1 stop service is an 1-2x weekly AKL-RAR-LAX which is underwritten by government funding.

There current focus is non-stop point to point services to countries on the Pacific Rim.

AKL-EWR, is as long as you’ll see NZ go in the near term. Which is pushing there code 2 789s to the limit.


When they have the right aircraft I wonder if they will start AKL-LHR nonstop?


LHR-AKL is a thousand miles longer than LHR-SYD. That might be a stretch for even the winner of projext sunrise. Additionally, I do not think there is sufficient business travel to justify a premium it would take to make this a reality.

IMO, they will not.


Agree.

Firstly, the technology to do the route profitably doesn't yet exist and may never.

Secondly, it makes no sense to drop a one stop route you've done successfully for 40 years, only to re-open it again as a non-stop with massive risk when a new aircraft comes along that operates on the very margins of feasibility.

I can't see NZ going to the UK again for another 20 years, if ever.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7497
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Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:15 am

Gasman wrote:
zkncj wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:

Boeing had been delivering the B747-200B for over a decade and Qantas had already received 19 of them (and 3 B747-200M) before ANZ began to receive their first B747.

On August 25, 1982 Air New Zealand took delivery of their 5th new Boeing 747-200B (having also purchased 9 B737s in previous years). The 747-200B had a still air range of 6,560 nmi.
AKL-LAX-LHR is 5,652 nm + 4,741 nm = 10,393 nm.
AKL-HKG-LHR is 4,943 nm + 5,209 nm = 10,152 nm.

Upon receipt of the full fleet ANZ was decided to end their codeshare with BOAC and being flying to London via LAX.

ANZ would go on to purchase 4 more B747-400s from 14. Dec. 1989 to 31. Oct. 1998.

On Oct 22, 2019 ANZ announced that they were discontinuing flights to London as of Oct 20,2020 after which they would add EWR as their 6th nonstop destination in the US after adding ORD and IAH since 2015.

I doubt that an "email blast" was necessary, as this would be considered a historic route change.


NZ started LAX-LGW with the DC10s... they would be crewed by BA crews on the LAX-LGW sector, and NZ crews on the LAX-AKL.


Small point, but the BA crewed NZ DC-10s flew to LHR. It was a somewhat sporadic service, and I'm not sure if it continued until the retirement of the DC-10s in 1982.

The first "real" service to the UK for NZ was with the 742s, and it was then that they were relegated to LGW. It was a massive bone of contention, especially after NZ through ties to "mother" Britain had felt somewhat coerced into outfitting the 742 fleet with RR engines - as opposed to the GE variant which they would have purchased had political factors not come into play (including access to EU markets for New Zealand's dairy exports).


To add to this NZ used RR on its first 3 744s out of an eventual fleet of 8 but switched to GE for the remaining 5, maybe due to the fact 3 were purchased second hand? Then 2 more brand new to complete the fleet. The 763s were GE powered and entered the fleet around the time of the 744s in 1990. They chose RR on the 772 and 789 had no choice on the 77W GE only and will have GE on the 781 and likely any future 789s.

HKG-LHR was served from 2006-2013 initially 744s then 772s.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 2705
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:51 am

what looks to be a polish article suggest that "unofficial reports" indicate that Vistara is the buyer of the Air New Zealand slot.

My hunch is that they have taken other speculation and made it "unofficial reports" giving this theory a new life

Use google translate to translate the article.

https://www.pasazer.com/news/43482/slot ... ln,zl.html
 
UAUA
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:50 am

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:14 am

I doubt LHR will be gone forever. It will return some day maybe nonstop flights.

Do they have plans to start AKL-LHR nonstop?
My former profile name was United Airline.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7497
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:27 am

UAUA wrote:
I doubt LHR will be gone forever. It will return some day maybe nonstop flights.

Do they have plans to start AKL-LHR nonstop?


They wouldn’t leave if they had plans to return or do non stop AKL-LHR in future. How far do Boeing and Airbus go with technology in terms of range for such a small market? AKL-LHR isn’t small but by world standards it is in comparison to even SYD-LHR. So no not happening for a long time if ever.
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:27 am

redroo wrote:
The whole NZ economy is a fraction the size the Aussie economy - less than 10pc. It’s even smaller than Western Australia’s economy. Very different beasts.

Umm no. It doesn't invalidate your argument but NZ's economy is around 15% of Australia's and therefore about the same size as WA's.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
zkncj
Posts: 3868
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:42 am

UAUA wrote:
I doubt LHR will be gone forever. It will return some day maybe nonstop flights.

Do they have plans to start AKL-LHR nonstop?


Think it would be 10-15 years away technology wise before we would see the return of AKL-LHR in an non-stop form.

It really needs the development of an new type of aircraft that could fly slightly faster, with fuel burn less than an 787 today.

AKL-LHR non-stop would be around 22-23hrs! Not many passengers would be that willing todo so on an current aircraft.

It needs something that could say do around 1250kph making the flight time around say 17-18hrs.
 
User avatar
PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:45 am

In the last four years, there have been four nonstop commercial flights with twin-engine jets begun that are over 14,000 km great circle distance
15,344 Singapore Newark
14,535 Auckland Doha
14,499 Perth London–Heathrow
14,200 Auckland Dubai
14,114 Singapore Los Angeles

UAUA wrote:
I doubt LHR will be gone forever. It will return some day maybe nonstop flights. Do they have plans to start AKL-LHR nonstop?


LHR- great circle distance
HKG 9,647 km
SIN 10,887 km
SYD 17,016 km
AKL 18,354 km

20,000 km is the distance from any point on the globe to its antipode

More than likely LHR-SYD will be the longest commercial flight for the next half a century.
 
Gemuser
Posts: 5083
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:16 am

Lufthansa wrote:
hang on just a second. QF isn't going to fly a great circle route. They want to avoid headwinds so they're flying up over the pacific first.
which would be very similar to what Air NZ would need to do. They've even done the route proving flights so we know its doable.
but its not simply the existing flight path cutting out a fuel stop. The great circle mapper, is over simplifying this mission.
For a commonwealth country to ditch London ... especially when QF has done all the research for them.... is beyond belief but
it appears they only want to focus on taking Australians and Kiwis to the Americas.


We do not yet know if QF will use the "east about" method on SYD/MEL - LHR! This has been suggested but AFAIK no announcement of a decision has yet bee made yet.
QF have NOT done route proving flights east bound from Australia to LHR They also haven't done route proving flights anywhere with the aircraft they HAVE announced they are going to use.
Lets wait and see what is actually planned shall we.

Gemuser
 
raylee67
Posts: 886
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:19 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Ah, those will go to BA? Can those slots be used for intercontinental flights or those are restricted to props? It would be a gold mine for BA if they can be used for intercontinental routes.


As far as I know those slots are reserved for certain routes. The type of aircraft is irrelevant, but it's just done to prevent any airline from getting a monopoly on a route. If that's the case and it's a busy and profitable route some slots are to be given up to the competition. Such slots cannot easily be used for other destinations.

This is rather common. Any airline wants to get slots at Amsterdam for example? You can just get them, they're available. Only condition is that they're being used for flights to Birmingham, they cannot be used for flights to other destinations. These were in fact KLM slots, but since it was decided the Amsterdam - Birmingham route needed competition they were to give them up. So far no airline has reported for those slots, even EasyJet doesn't want them and they're very keen on Amsterdam slots.


If these restricted FlyBE slots are reverted to BA, can BA use these slots for their originally intended destinations (e.g. Aberdeen, Birmingham, Edinburgh, etc.) for their own flights, and switch their current slots used for their own flights to those destinations to serve the more lucrative routes? e.g. let's say if there is a FlyBE slot to fly to Aberdeen at 10am, and BA has currently a flight to Aberdeen at 10:15 anyway with BA slot, can BA switch that 10:15 flight to the 10am slot (changing the schedule slightly) and then use the original 10:15 slot, say for a new daily flight to San Francisco (just picking a random destination as example here, I am not saying BA should fly an additional daily to SFO)?
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:10 am

raylee67 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Ah, those will go to BA? Can those slots be used for intercontinental flights or those are restricted to props? It would be a gold mine for BA if they can be used for intercontinental routes.


As far as I know those slots are reserved for certain routes. The type of aircraft is irrelevant, but it's just done to prevent any airline from getting a monopoly on a route. If that's the case and it's a busy and profitable route some slots are to be given up to the competition. Such slots cannot easily be used for other destinations.

This is rather common. Any airline wants to get slots at Amsterdam for example? You can just get them, they're available. Only condition is that they're being used for flights to Birmingham, they cannot be used for flights to other destinations. These were in fact KLM slots, but since it was decided the Amsterdam - Birmingham route needed competition they were to give them up. So far no airline has reported for those slots, even EasyJet doesn't want them and they're very keen on Amsterdam slots.


If these restricted FlyBE slots are reverted to BA, can BA use these slots for their originally intended destinations (e.g. Aberdeen, Birmingham, Edinburgh, etc.) for their own flights, and switch their current slots used for their own flights to those destinations to serve the more lucrative routes? e.g. let's say if there is a FlyBE slot to fly to Aberdeen at 10am, and BA has currently a flight to Aberdeen at 10:15 anyway with BA slot, can BA switch that 10:15 flight to the 10am slot (changing the schedule slightly) and then use the original 10:15 slot, say for a new daily flight to San Francisco (just picking a random destination as example here, I am not saying BA should fly an additional daily to SFO)?


I'm guessing there is a bit of give and take flexibility from the regulator, basis LHR-NQY which if i'm not mistaken was a PSO route. Flybe tried to make it work year round and I remember WW saying BA would do it, but only on a seasonal basis, which seems to be how its finished up with BA starting the route on the 2nd July.

My thought on the Flybe slots overall was more about competition on domestic connectivity. But after Virgin Little Red putting the white flag up, Flybe going under, its proving difficult for anyone to sustain any presence. Which would fall into BA management negotiating viability of the routes etc.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:42 am

raylee67 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Ah, those will go to BA? Can those slots be used for intercontinental flights or those are restricted to props? It would be a gold mine for BA if they can be used for intercontinental routes.


As far as I know those slots are reserved for certain routes. The type of aircraft is irrelevant, but it's just done to prevent any airline from getting a monopoly on a route. If that's the case and it's a busy and profitable route some slots are to be given up to the competition. Such slots cannot easily be used for other destinations.

This is rather common. Any airline wants to get slots at Amsterdam for example? You can just get them, they're available. Only condition is that they're being used for flights to Birmingham, they cannot be used for flights to other destinations. These were in fact KLM slots, but since it was decided the Amsterdam - Birmingham route needed competition they were to give them up. So far no airline has reported for those slots, even EasyJet doesn't want them and they're very keen on Amsterdam slots.


If these restricted FlyBE slots are reverted to BA, can BA use these slots for their originally intended destinations (e.g. Aberdeen, Birmingham, Edinburgh, etc.) for their own flights, and switch their current slots used for their own flights to those destinations to serve the more lucrative routes? e.g. let's say if there is a FlyBE slot to fly to Aberdeen at 10am, and BA has currently a flight to Aberdeen at 10:15 anyway with BA slot, can BA switch that 10:15 flight to the 10am slot (changing the schedule slightly) and then use the original 10:15 slot, say for a new daily flight to San Francisco (just picking a random destination as example here, I am not saying BA should fly an additional daily to SFO)?

Certainly they can, but they don't need to. BA actually own these remedy slots and can use them for whatever they like. The but (and it is a big but) is that if any airline comes along with the right route authorities and wants slots to operate flights to one or more of the six destinations specified in the competition ruling, BA has to release them again. There are a limited number of slots designated as remedy slots, the deal isn't open ended. Now I mention route authorities because some of the routes are UK domestics (which especially after 31 December may be only available to UK registered airlines), and others, such as Moscow are restricted by bilaterals which allow only UK registered airlines (or Russian ones) and only two from each country.
If the slots are claimed by another eligible airline and they successfully operate them for at least 80% of the time through 6 consecutive IATA seasons (so three years), they will transfer to that airline outright and can be used to any European destination rather than just the six specified ones. Flybe has collapsed short of the three years. It remains to be seen if there are any loopholes that allow the administrators to sell the slots anyway, but even if these exist, they are Europe/domestic only slots in perpetuity for anyone other than BA.
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1202
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Air New Zealand Sells London Heathrow Airport Slot For $27 Million

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:17 am

Andy33 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:

As far as I know those slots are reserved for certain routes. The type of aircraft is irrelevant, but it's just done to prevent any airline from getting a monopoly on a route. If that's the case and it's a busy and profitable route some slots are to be given up to the competition. Such slots cannot easily be used for other destinations.

This is rather common. Any airline wants to get slots at Amsterdam for example? You can just get them, they're available. Only condition is that they're being used for flights to Birmingham, they cannot be used for flights to other destinations. These were in fact KLM slots, but since it was decided the Amsterdam - Birmingham route needed competition they were to give them up. So far no airline has reported for those slots, even EasyJet doesn't want them and they're very keen on Amsterdam slots.


If these restricted FlyBE slots are reverted to BA, can BA use these slots for their originally intended destinations (e.g. Aberdeen, Birmingham, Edinburgh, etc.) for their own flights, and switch their current slots used for their own flights to those destinations to serve the more lucrative routes? e.g. let's say if there is a FlyBE slot to fly to Aberdeen at 10am, and BA has currently a flight to Aberdeen at 10:15 anyway with BA slot, can BA switch that 10:15 flight to the 10am slot (changing the schedule slightly) and then use the original 10:15 slot, say for a new daily flight to San Francisco (just picking a random destination as example here, I am not saying BA should fly an additional daily to SFO)?

Certainly they can, but they don't need to. BA actually own these remedy slots and can use them for whatever they like. The but (and it is a big but) is that if any airline comes along with the right route authorities and wants slots to operate flights to one or more of the six destinations specified in the competition ruling, BA has to release them again. There are a limited number of slots designated as remedy slots, the deal isn't open ended. Now I mention route authorities because some of the routes are UK domestics (which especially after 31 December may be only available to UK registered airlines), and others, such as Moscow are restricted by bilaterals which allow only UK registered airlines (or Russian ones) and only two from each country.
If the slots are claimed by another eligible airline and they successfully operate them for at least 80% of the time through 6 consecutive IATA seasons (so three years), they will transfer to that airline outright and can be used to any European destination rather than just the six specified ones. Flybe has collapsed short of the three years. It remains to be seen if there are any loopholes that allow the administrators to sell the slots anyway, but even if these exist, they are Europe/domestic only slots in perpetuity for anyone other than BA.


Probably the best explained slot answer.
Thanks

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