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YouGeeElWhy
Topic Author
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:42 pm

Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:19 pm

No, it is not a giant laser that removes ice from planes, which would be awesome, but rather a laser that etches the plane surfaces to make them more nonstick.

https://optics.org/news/11/1/97

Using a technology known as Direct Laser Interference Patterning (DLIP), a research team at Fraunhofer IWS collaborated with project partners at Airbus and TU Dresden to develop a new process that creates complex, meandering surface structures at the micron- and submicron scale, with the effect of decreasing ice accumulation and accelerating de-icing.


Also, such a de-icing process requires 20 percent less heating energy. Other advantages of the new process are that it can reduce the required amount of environmentally harmful de-icing agents and the time passengers have to spend waiting for a plane to be de-iced. The same goes for in-flight power and fuel consumption. It can even reduce the aircraft’s total weight if smaller heating units are installed. This combination of these two effects has yet to be achieved with conventional technologies.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3410
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:27 pm

OK, so what about painting those surfaces? Abrasion from airborne particles? Mechanic touching those surfaces?
Submicron features are pretty fragile...
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:35 pm

I always wondered why the wings of some ice proned birds could not not have electric heating elements on the wing surfaces like rear defrosters on vehicles do
 
FlyHossD
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:53 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
I always wondered why the wings of some ice proned birds could not not have electric heating elements on the wing surfaces like rear defrosters on vehicles do


It's possible, but would require a lot of electrical power just as any heating element does (toaster, blow dryer, etc.). IOW, that would require larger (heavier) generators.

Large airfoils don't seem to be as susceptible to icing smaller ones. IIRC, the 777 was originally proposed without wing anti-ice at all, but UA and other early carriers wouldn't agree to that.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:06 am

FlyHossD wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
I always wondered why the wings of some ice proned birds could not not have electric heating elements on the wing surfaces like rear defrosters on vehicles do


It's possible, but would require a lot of electrical power just as any heating element does (toaster, blow dryer, etc.). IOW, that would require larger (heavier) generators.

Large airfoils don't seem to be as susceptible to icing smaller ones. IIRC, the 777 was originally proposed without wing anti-ice at all, but UA and other early carriers wouldn't agree to that.


Not sure of your heavy electrical needs ... most vehicles use just 12 volts to heat up the rear window ... hair dryers operate on 120 volts
 
Pontius
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:34 am

crjflyboy wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
I always wondered why the wings of some ice proned birds could not not have electric heating elements on the wing surfaces like rear defrosters on vehicles do


It's possible, but would require a lot of electrical power just as any heating element does (toaster, blow dryer, etc.). IOW, that would require larger (heavier) generators.

Large airfoils don't seem to be as susceptible to icing smaller ones. IIRC, the 777 was originally proposed without wing anti-ice at all, but UA and other early carriers wouldn't agree to that.


Not sure of your heavy electrical needs ... most vehicles use just 12 volts to heat up the rear window ... hair dryers operate on 120 volts


That is not how electricity works at all. Power = Voltage * Amps. If one likens it to the fluid in a garden hose, then Voltage is like pressure, Amps like flow rate. For more on that topic: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:54 am

Pontius wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:

It's possible, but would require a lot of electrical power just as any heating element does (toaster, blow dryer, etc.). IOW, that would require larger (heavier) generators.

Large airfoils don't seem to be as susceptible to icing smaller ones. IIRC, the 777 was originally proposed without wing anti-ice at all, but UA and other early carriers wouldn't agree to that.


Not sure of your heavy electrical needs ... most vehicles use just 12 volts to heat up the rear window ... hair dryers operate on 120 volts


That is not how electricity works at all. Power = Voltage * Amps. If one likens it to the fluid in a garden hose, then Voltage is like pressure, Amps like flow rate. For more on that topic: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm


so how much electricity is need to heat a rear window on average vehicle to remove frost from it
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5554
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:09 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Pontius wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Not sure of your heavy electrical needs ... most vehicles use just 12 volts to heat up the rear window ... hair dryers operate on 120 volts


That is not how electricity works at all. Power = Voltage * Amps. If one likens it to the fluid in a garden hose, then Voltage is like pressure, Amps like flow rate. For more on that topic: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm


so how much electricity is need to heat a rear window on average vehicle to remove frost from it


Modern cars use a 12 volt electrical system. Aircraft use a 115 volt system. There’s the first half of your equation. Now the amperage for a resistor the surface area of a wing....
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:10 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Pontius wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

Not sure of your heavy electrical needs ... most vehicles use just 12 volts to heat up the rear window ... hair dryers operate on 120 volts


That is not how electricity works at all. Power = Voltage * Amps. If one likens it to the fluid in a garden hose, then Voltage is like pressure, Amps like flow rate. For more on that topic: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm


so how much electricity is need to heat a rear window on average vehicle to remove frost from it

Seems most cars use between 10 and 20 Amps for the rear widow defroster; so, 120 to 240 Watts for a small surface that's already heated from the inside (passenger compartment) and rarely subjected to outside temperature below -10°C/12°F.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2563
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:14 am

Spacepope wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Pontius wrote:

That is not how electricity works at all. Power = Voltage * Amps. If one likens it to the fluid in a garden hose, then Voltage is like pressure, Amps like flow rate. For more on that topic: https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm


so how much electricity is need to heat a rear window on average vehicle to remove frost from it


Modern cars use a 12 volt electrical system. Aircraft use a 115 volt system. There’s the first half of your equation. Now the amperage for a resistor the surface area of a wing....

Technically, aircraft use a 115/200 VAC 3-phase system; so, even higher wattage for same current.
 
D L X
Posts: 12726
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:23 am

I’d start by calculating the joules required to melt ice on a surface as large as a wing, and work backward to the wattage necessary to get that amount of energy in the necessary timeframe.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9126
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:42 am

crjflyboy wrote:
I always wondered why the wings of some ice proned birds could not not have electric heating elements on the wing surfaces like rear defrosters on vehicles do



The MD80 already has such a system available for a relatively small ice prone area
on the upper wing inboard close to the fuselage
 
User avatar
Rossiya747
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:56 am

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:09 pm

But what if they just used lightsabers? lol
 
alasizon
Posts: 3080
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Novel laser-based method effectively de-ices aircraft

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:52 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this new process also assumes that the de-icing is done correctly by the ground crew and at the right angle in order to help the etched pattern?

As a result, some of the ice simply loses its grip, depending on the conditions under which it froze, and spontaneously detaches after reaching a certain thickness.


Spontaneous changes in drag seems a little sketchy.

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