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olle
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UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:58 pm

UK will leave European aerospace safety agency.

What will this mean for Airbus precense in UK?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 84446.html
 
Scotron12
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:13 pm

Nada. Just that the UK CAA will certify independently as opposed to as part of EASA.
 
bennett123
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:22 pm

So will CAA certify the wings and EASA the rest?.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:30 pm

Would it remain in the SAFA program, there are lot of non-EU countries in the program.
All posts are just opinions.
 
mxaxai
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:38 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Nada. Just that the UK CAA will certify independently as opposed to as part of EASA.

Which ultimately increases the certification cost since an extra agency needs to review the documentation. Also possibly diverging standards, thus more tests and documentation as well as potentially delayed certification in the UK. But that applies to all manufacturers.
 
B777LRF
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:39 pm

Scotron12 wrote:
Nada. Just that the UK CAA will certify independently as opposed to as part of EASA.


Mmm. Slight problem with that since, as of this moment in time, EASA does not plan on recognising Form 1 certificates issued by the CAA post Brexit. So what the wing factory will do, is maintain their EASA approval and will not move over to the UK CAA. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of aerospace suppliers either have or are in the process of moving under the direct control of EASA, in order to maintain their business.

Whether or not EASA will recognise certificates issued by a company regulated by the CAA is a matter of negotiation. As it stands right now, the position of the UK makes that unlikely. And, yes, UK aerospace companies are deeply frustrated by the intransigence of the Johnson government.
Signature. You just read one.
 
mxaxai
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Would it remain in the SAFA program, there are lot of non-EU countries in the program.

The UK could even remain part of EASA, in the same way Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland are EASA members but not EU members. They simply chose not to, for whatever reason. I really don't see what the UK gains from this step.
 
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par13del
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:54 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Which ultimately increases the certification cost since an extra agency needs to review the documentation. Also possibly diverging standards, thus more tests and documentation as well as potentially delayed certification in the UK. But that applies to all manufacturers.

What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?
 
Toinou
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:57 pm

mxaxai wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Would it remain in the SAFA program, there are lot of non-EU countries in the program.

The UK could even remain part of EASA, in the same way Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland are EASA members but not EU members. They simply chose not to, for whatever reason. I really don't see what the UK gains from this step.


UK government seems to want to put it's own regulations, that's apparently one of the problem in the negotiations of an agreement with the EU. So, they probably decided they had to do it with aviation as well, for political reasons, even though it is probably by nature the most interconnected industry on Earth.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:40 pm

par13del wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Which ultimately increases the certification cost since an extra agency needs to review the documentation. Also possibly diverging standards, thus more tests and documentation as well as potentially delayed certification in the UK. But that applies to all manufacturers.

What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?


The whole production chain needs to be certified up to the manufacturer that makes the tools used to build the planes. All British firms become 3rd party operators and the certification gets more expensive. And I bet the British won´t come for free either.
 
mxaxai
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:39 pm

par13del wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Which ultimately increases the certification cost since an extra agency needs to review the documentation. Also possibly diverging standards, thus more tests and documentation as well as potentially delayed certification in the UK. But that applies to all manufacturers.

What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?

Certification standards for the entire aircraft. In the 737 MAX recertification you already have EASA and the Canadian and Chinese agencies asking for special test flights, additional documentation etc. Now add the CAA to that. Looking at the recent 777-9 static test failure, the CAA might say "sure, 149 % is more than enough" or "no, please redo the entire test campaign up to 150 %", and so on. Foreign general aviation OEM's might come to the conclusion that the added expense of UK certification is not worth it for a few extra sales, or local UK OEM's have to do another certification campaign if they want to sell it in the EU. Lack of standardization just adds another unknown to the whole certification process.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:43 pm

This is essentially a symbolic political move, to reinforce the UK government's desire to demonstrate a complete divorce from the EU. I don't see the CAA taking a substantially different line fron EASA in practice
 
Scotron12
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:54 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
This is essentially a symbolic political move, to reinforce the UK government's desire to demonstrate a complete divorce from the EU. I don't see the CAA taking a substantially different line fron EASA in practice


Me too. Would not be in their interest to be too divergent from EASA or any regulatory agency for that matter.
 
IWMBH
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:10 pm

Like others here, I believe this is just a symbolic move. If the EASA takes a decision the CAA will just copy it.
 
JayBCN
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:21 pm

It won’t mean anything positive for Britain. The CAA will not have any relevance outside Britain. They now have full sovereignty and can do what they want. That’s fine but no longer has any impact on the rest of us here in Europe.
 
ArjenterAvest
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:26 pm

Just out of curiousity, how many staff does Airbus has in the UK, direct and indirect?

Or Boeing for that matter.


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mjoelnir
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:26 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So will CAA certify the wings and EASA the rest?.


I would assume that EASA still certifies the whole frame and than CAA will certify the whole frame for use in the UK.
 
lhrnue
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:40 pm

UK is also moving away from EC conformity and has created it's own called UKCA.
 
AIR MALTA
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:44 pm

Great! More red tape!
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
olle
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:48 pm

lhrnue wrote:
UK is also moving away from EC conformity and has created it's own called UKCA.


The world has got crazy...
 
Bhoy
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:03 pm

mxaxai wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Would it remain in the SAFA program, there are lot of non-EU countries in the program.

The UK could even remain part of EASA, in the same way Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland are EASA members but not EU members. They simply chose not to, for whatever reason. I really don't see what the UK gains from this step.

The question isn't what the UK gains from this step, it's what does Cummings gain from it?
 
smartplane
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:09 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
This is essentially a symbolic political move, to reinforce the UK government's desire to demonstrate a complete divorce from the EU. I don't see the CAA taking a substantially different line fron EASA in practice

Agree. It's very largely symbolic, because the finance and insurance industries want higher, converging global standards, not the reverse.

At Airworthiness Authority level, there is probably more co-operation and meeting of the minds, than at any time in the last couple of decades, despite what some posters portray in the MAX thread, and a Canadian maverick or two. For example, the CAA hosted pre-JATR meetings of interested parties, and lobbied participants for the FAA to be included to avoid creating an us and them.

For expertise, staffing, cost and neutrality reasons, we edge ever closer to a global airworthiness authority, despite the UK appearing to take a different path. Had such an authority existed, it's questionable whether there would be a MAX grounding, just a later service entry, or more likely, Boeing would be launching a state of the art NB model, with a tweaked NG filling the gap meantime.
 
bennett123
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:09 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51783580

This is the bit I don't follow;

'He said the agency's powers would revert to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) "and the expertise will need to come home to do that, but we'll do it in a gradual way".

Given that we leave in 9 months maximum, I cannot see how this will be gradual.

Presumably, he assumes that all Brits working for EASA will quit and fly home.
 
pdp
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:31 pm

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51783580

This is the bit I don't follow;

'He said the agency's powers would revert to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) "and the expertise will need to come home to do that, but we'll do it in a gradual way".

Given that we leave in 9 months maximum, I cannot see how this will be gradual.

Presumably, he assumes that all Brits working for EASA will quit and fly home.


I would imagine he doesn't, but it wouldn't make a good soundbite. Number 10 controls the narrative and it seems to be "leave everything sounding remotely European".

Is this really necessary? It sounds like extra cost for no real benefit. I'd assume that the CAA will just copy and paste and all it does it cost more money and waste time...
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:39 pm

smartplane wrote:
Agree. It's very largely symbolic


Symbolic? Not for UK suppliers. It'll cost real £ € $.

Symbolic for 'No Deal' Brexit? Absolutely.
 
mxaxai
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:16 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Presumably, he assumes that all Brits working for EASA will quit and fly home.

Or, possibly, that all current EASA functions will be copied by the CAA and the knowledge will be gradually rebuilt with fresh staff in the UK. That will require a decent increase in funding for the CAA, though.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:29 pm

Good riddance. The UK CAA was always full of itself and considered itself god´s (or the Queen´s ) gift to aviation. Quite a few of the “complications” introduced into JAA/EASA regulations were carried over from the UK. Now perhaps things can be rationalized and simplified in the EASA environment once they go home to rebuild the Empire.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:49 pm

mxaxai wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Presumably, he assumes that all Brits working for EASA will quit and fly home.

Or, possibly, that all current EASA functions will be copied by the CAA and the knowledge will be gradually rebuilt with fresh staff in the UK. That will require a decent increase in funding for the CAA, though.


In the meantime, the EASA compliance costs will still be there, for suppliers who want to play in Europe. So, either "CAA rebuild outlay" is taken from the general budget fund, or these aerospace players will fund their EASA credentials, and pay "CAA rebuild fee" on top, right?
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AIR MALTA
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:07 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
Good riddance. The UK CAA was always full of itself and considered itself god´s (or the Queen´s ) gift to aviation. Quite a few of the “complications” introduced into JAA/EASA regulations were carried over from the UK. Now perhaps things can be rationalized and simplified in the EASA environment once they go home to rebuild the Empire.

I agree! Good riddance. The UK has become such an unattractive country with a Brexit cult that is so anti business, cooperation and anti anything not English.

It will cost the UK more for the same but hey if they want it, let them have it.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
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enzo011
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:17 pm

This makes as much sense as Brexit. It seems to me that either as others have said it is purely for political framing but they will still have to hire people to just sign the forms that EASA already approved so will be wasting money, or they will break with EASA and will hire many new people to take over the certification currently being done by EASA. This will cost considerably more for doing a job that is being done right now, all just to say that you have left the EU and all its institutions. The problem with playing politics like this, the other side will one day take you seriously and you will end up with consequences you may not be prepared to pay.

As for the unintended consequences, if Airbus has to pay tariffs or suffer delays because of the new deal between the UK and the EU, adding more red tape and possible cost may just be the straw that breaks the back and forces Airbus to award new work to their other factories outside of the UK.
 
Galwayman
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:17 pm

Interestingly ... the Conservatives finally admit that all the H&S regulation practice within the EU is really British expertise, rules and regulations that the U.K. was essentially imposing on other countries and a decision has now been taken to repatriate that expertise ...

It’s difficult to see how the U.K. can maintain access to the liberalised European air market in future years as the move to a hard exit gathers momentum
 
Arion640
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:02 am

Galwayman wrote:
Interestingly ... the Conservatives finally admit that all the H&S regulation practice within the EU is really British expertise, rules and regulations that the U.K. was essentially imposing on other countries and a decision has now been taken to repatriate that expertise ...

It’s difficult to see how the U.K. can maintain access to the liberalised European air market in future years as the move to a hard exit gathers momentum


It’s difficult to see now the Netherlands and Ireland (KLM and Ryanair respectively) can maintain access to the UK air market in future years too then.
 
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par13del
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:11 am

seahawk wrote:
par13del wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Which ultimately increases the certification cost since an extra agency needs to review the documentation. Also possibly diverging standards, thus more tests and documentation as well as potentially delayed certification in the UK. But that applies to all manufacturers.

What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?


The whole production chain needs to be certified up to the manufacturer that makes the tools used to build the planes. All British firms become 3rd party operators and the certification gets more expensive. And I bet the British won´t come for free either.

Well we are told all the time that there is a high content of USA supplies in Airbus a/c, they make that work with no issue, unless the issue is that the UK is on the door step of the EU and this would be regarded as assisting a competitor who is a pimple on the b*******
 
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par13del
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:22 am

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51783580

This is the bit I don't follow;

'He said the agency's powers would revert to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) "and the expertise will need to come home to do that, but we'll do it in a gradual way".

Given that we leave in 9 months maximum, I cannot see how this will be gradual.

Presumably, he assumes that all Brits working for EASA will quit and fly home.

You assume that only Brits have the expertise, if they hire other foreigners from outside the EU we can assume the staffing cost will be lower...
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:36 am

Galwayman wrote:
Interestingly ... the Conservatives finally admit that all the H&S regulation practice within the EU is really British expertise, rules and regulations that the U.K. was essentially imposing on other countries and a decision has now been taken to repatriate that expertise ...



Perhaps we can get rid of the UK National Costume, the hi viz vest...
 
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par13del
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:36 am

enzo011 wrote:
This makes as much sense as Brexit. It seems to me that either as others have said it is purely for political framing but they will still have to hire people to just sign the forms that EASA already approved so will be wasting money, or they will break with EASA and will hire many new people to take over the certification currently being done by EASA. This will cost considerably more for doing a job that is being done right now, all just to say that you have left the EU and all its institutions. The problem with playing politics like this, the other side will one day take you seriously and you will end up with consequences you may not be prepared to pay.

As for the unintended consequences, if Airbus has to pay tariffs or suffer delays because of the new deal between the UK and the EU, adding more red tape and possible cost may just be the straw that breaks the back and forces Airbus to award new work to their other factories outside of the UK.

Well another way to look at it is what price other than money would the UK have to pay to keep using the resources of EASA? The EU wants continued alignment on a vast number of fronts, most would ensure that the UK remains controlled by EU standards, if the UK does not diverge and do their own thing what woul dbe the point of Brexit?
The simple thing here at least in my opinion is that you are either in the EU or out.....
 
strfyr51
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:12 am

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
par13del wrote:
What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?


The whole production chain needs to be certified up to the manufacturer that makes the tools used to build the planes. All British firms become 3rd party operators and the certification gets more expensive. And I bet the British won´t come for free either.

Well we are told all the time that there is a high content of USA supplies in Airbus a/c, they make that work with no issue, unless the issue is that the UK is on the door step of the EU and this would be regarded as assisting a competitor who is a pimple on the b*******



So? Exactly What does this have to DO with the UK Leaving EASA? Are the wings not built under License to Airbus?
Surely were Boeing to build wings in the UK?
They would be built under license as well would they not?
Were the British Not building airplanes before EASA?? I don't think they forgot did they?
The design OF the wings and the building of the wings are 2 completely different matters.
 
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MillwallSean
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:19 am

What this really means is higher costs and less competitive players in the UK. For aviation there are presently two players. One in the US and one in Europe. The UK supply chain is presently geared towards the European company. Hence, for us (my company) our UK production units will see higher costs. They need to be EASA certified and we have to move to ensure that such certification now takes place under a different regiment. The EU tends to stipulate that such certification takes place within the EU should the host nation not have an agreement that recognises the competency of the civil aviation regulators ability to certify parts etc from that territory (and even then, specific additions are expected) something Airbus/Boeing notices continuously.
We might then also have to pay an additional fee to be CAA certified. BUT that will come after we have gained EASA certification.
Some of you may remember the millions of dollars to certify 787-300 discussion from a decade ago and US has such high trade barriers its cheaper for Airbus to run assembly lines for large industrial goods in the states vs sticking to an EU production line.
https://www.seattlepi.com/business/arti ... 239464.php

Another example of what this madness will lead to. UK used to be the place to be when you wanted medicines certified in the EU. Te EU didn't just certify for the EU market but had and have deals with another 50 or so independent nations that accept EU certification (mainly Asia and Africa). The certification will remain the same just that it now needs to be undertaken within the EU of which soon the UK is no longer part.
My sister works for AstraZeneca in Cambridge. For their medical research testing facility they have had to duplicate what's in Cambridge and build an identical (slightly more modern) new facility outside Stockholm (at a site they abandoned 5 years earlier). This to the tune of 600 million (and I dont remember whether she said that was 600 million Euros, SEK or Pounds).

Humans are dumb. One group who thinks an island is powerful and still see the world through the lens of a long lost empire. Another that will smile and at the same time place costs on UK business all under the disguise of level playing fields - while not mentioning that most of their own production is outsourced to say Romania or Slovakia. Level playing field, hmmm...
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aemoreira1981
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:26 am

Scotron12 wrote:
Nada. Just that the UK CAA will certify independently as opposed to as part of EASA.


This also has major implications elsewhere...in that the UK CAA will now need an ICAO audit as well for category certification.
 
BA777FO
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:03 am

Hopefully now the UK can abandon those awful EASA FTLs for crew and return to CAP371.
 
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seahawk
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Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:14 am

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
par13del wrote:
What standards, a company in the UK is building wings for Airbus based on what Airbus wants. Now if Airbus is going to say that the workers must be of a certain age, no sweat shops, those are social items, what would the technical items be, do the wings themselves have to be certified away from the frame?


The whole production chain needs to be certified up to the manufacturer that makes the tools used to build the planes. All British firms become 3rd party operators and the certification gets more expensive. And I bet the British won´t come for free either.

Well we are told all the time that there is a high content of USA supplies in Airbus a/c, they make that work with no issue, unless the issue is that the UK is on the door step of the EU and this would be regarded as assisting a competitor who is a pimple on the b*******


The FAA and EASA have agreed on common standards and to accept each others certification easily. We will see if the new British authority will be able to make similar agreements with the FAA and EASA. My feeling says that it will take time.
 
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enzo011
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:19 am

par13del wrote:
Well another way to look at it is what price other than money would the UK have to pay to keep using the resources of EASA? The EU wants continued alignment on a vast number of fronts, most would ensure that the UK remains controlled by EU standards, if the UK does not diverge and do their own thing what woul dbe the point of Brexit?
The simple thing here at least in my opinion is that you are either in the EU or out.....



By EU standards you actually mean British standards as the UK was part of the people making those decisions. As I said, Brexit doesn't make sense and the consequences could be very severe if they don't take a step back and think about what they are doing. The urge to leave everything the EU does isn't as simple as those charlatans at the top would like people to think it is.
 
olle
Topic Author
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Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:54 am

MillwallSean wrote:
What this really means is higher costs and less competitive players in the UK. For aviation there are presently two players. One in the US and one in Europe. The UK supply chain is presently geared towards the European company. Hence, for us (my company) our UK production units will see higher costs. They need to be EASA certified and we have to move to ensure that such certification now takes place under a different regiment. The EU tends to stipulate that such certification takes place within the EU should the host nation not have an agreement that recognises the competency of the civil aviation regulators ability to certify parts etc from that territory (and even then, specific additions are expected) something Airbus/Boeing notices continuously.
We might then also have to pay an additional fee to be CAA certified. BUT that will come after we have gained EASA certification.
Some of you may remember the millions of dollars to certify 787-300 discussion from a decade ago and US has such high trade barriers its cheaper for Airbus to run assembly lines for large industrial goods in the states vs sticking to an EU production line.
https://www.seattlepi.com/business/arti ... 239464.php

Another example of what this madness will lead to. UK used to be the place to be when you wanted medicines certified in the EU. Te EU didn't just certify for the EU market but had and have deals with another 50 or so independent nations that accept EU certification (mainly Asia and Africa). The certification will remain the same just that it now needs to be undertaken within the EU of which soon the UK is no longer part.
My sister works for AstraZeneca in Cambridge. For their medical research testing facility they have had to duplicate what's in Cambridge and build an identical (slightly more modern) new facility outside Stockholm (at a site they abandoned 5 years earlier). This to the tune of 600 million (and I dont remember whether she said that was 600 million Euros, SEK or Pounds).

Humans are dumb. One group who thinks an island is powerful and still see the world through the lens of a long lost empire. Another that will smile and at the same time place costs on UK business all under the disguise of level playing fields - while not mentioning that most of their own production is outsourced to say Romania or Slovakia. Level playing field, hmmm...


Astra zeneka people in stockholm has been very irritated by uk management moving everything to uk. But now thanks to brexit santa arrived!
 
Olddog
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:11 am

I am a bit surprised that you think it is new? It was known for years, the only thing new it the attempt a rewriting history and act like if it is an UK choice, but it is just the result of the fear of anything remotely linked to ECJ.

According to Shapps, who has been speaking to Aviation Week, the UK will withdraw (my italics) as a member state of EASA after the transition period and shift responsibility for aircraft certification and safety regulation to its own Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

The point at issue is the choice of that word, withdraw. We are not going to withdraw, as such. The UK ceased to exercise any role in the management of EASA when it left the EU at end of January this year. And, at the end of the transition period, all EU law related to aviation safety will cease to apply to the UK and the UK will automatically no longer play any part in the EU's aviation safety system.

There is a provision whereby a European third country can participate in EASA (see Article 129, but the conditions are such that the UK could not entertain such an arrangement, not least that it would have to adopt all EU law relating to aviation safety. Working within the framework of EASA would also mean having to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

We have known this would be unacceptable for some considerable time though, which makes the Aviation Week "exclusive" something of a non-story. We actually wrote about it in 2014, and several times since then, with an especially relevant report in late 2018, where I noted that the issues were fully apparent in January 2017.

This, of course, hasn't stopped the likes of the BBC and the Guardian treating this as something new, using the "hook" of the secretary's comments as the justification for the story.

The Financial Times, however, takes a different slant, headlining: "UK aerospace industry warns of risk from leaving European agency". It thus tells us of the industry warning of jobs and investment at risk, and its preference that the UK should continue to participate in EASA.

This is underlined by Paul Everitt, chief executive of ADS, the aerospace industry trade body, representing industries delivering £36 billion a year. He declares that "UK influence in EASA?...?helps make our industry attractive to the investment it needs to be home to the development of a new generation of advanced aircraft technology".

There is something rather pathetically naïve about this statement as there is no likelihood whatsoever of a Johnson administration accepting the terms set out in EU law for participation in EASA. Dropping out was a done deal the moment Johnson became prime minister.

However, this is now going to create a massive problem for civil aviation, both in terms of design and manufacturing and operations. In the first instance, the UK must rebuild its body of law, covering a vast range of enterprises and activities. Then it must reconstruct the CAA which, having ceded many of its functions (and personnel) to EASA, must re-acquire capabilities to act as an independent regulator.

Shapps talks glibly of the UK, outside of EASA membership, seeking "mutual recognition of certifications in bilateral agreements with other countries and blocs".

He also seems to indicate that this will be something of a leisurely process, stating that the CAA will "eventually" assume responsibility for new aircraft type certificates and airworthiness approvals, suggesting that this will occur "over a period of time".

What he doesn't seem to appreciate is that, when the UK is outside EASA. Many of the certifications and approvals issued to UK enterprises (and individuals) will no longer be valid and that certification issued by the CAA will not be recognised.
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vhtje
Posts: 1186
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:14 am

pdp wrote:

Is this really necessary? It sounds like extra cost for no real benefit. I'd assume that the CAA will just copy and paste and all it does it cost more money and waste time...


Ah, but they will be copying and pasting on British computers, in Britain.

No, wait...
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 539
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:04 am

vhtje wrote:
pdp wrote:

Is this really necessary? It sounds like extra cost for no real benefit. I'd assume that the CAA will just copy and paste and all it does it cost more money and waste time...


Ah, but they will be copying and pasting on British computers, in Britain.

No, wait...

Not if you're in Belfast, and your factory make A220 wings...Northern Ireland is in the UK, but not in GB, quite aside from the complexities of having a 'non-border' down the Irish Sea (although goods crossing it will be checked for compliance). Who has jurisdiction then? The CAA presumably. But it won't be on british computers in Britain... :banghead:
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:24 am

vhtje wrote:
pdp wrote:

Is this really necessary? It sounds like extra cost for no real benefit. I'd assume that the CAA will just copy and paste and all it does it cost more money and waste time...


Ah, but they will be copying and pasting on British computers, in Britain.

No, wait...

More like running it through a photocopier, considering how slow governments always are at setting up new IT infrastructure.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10263
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:44 pm

MillwallSean wrote:
Humans are dumb. One group who thinks an island is powerful and still see the world through the lens of a long lost empire. Another that will smile and at the same time place costs on UK business all under the disguise of level playing fields - while not mentioning that most of their own production is outsourced to say Romania or Slovakia. Level playing field, hmmm...

...or the flip side, imagine if EASA and the FAA were not accepting each other's certification with minimal inspection, or in other words, TRUST.
Would the 787 have been built with the new battery solutions without adequate testing, or the MAX allowed to fly with MCAS 1.0?
As you state, barriers to entry in the USA resulted in Airbus placing facilities there, the EU has those same barriers and the two major items the UK does for Airbus will fall under the same environment, wings and RR engines.

So is GE and Pratt looking at Brexit with a mind to supplying engines for the A350, or is Airbus giving them hints that they want to diversify away from RR?
Two sides of the same coin, its just which one we choose to look at.
 
Nickd92
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:01 pm

Re: UK to leave European Aviation Safety Agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:38 pm

Isn't our country really led by Braindead venomous wasps? For what benefit will we get leaving EASA. If anything we drive EASA to higher standards with the CAA.
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1807
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

Re: UK leaves european aerospacesafety agency

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:27 pm

mxaxai wrote:
.......
The UK could even remain part of EASA, in the same way Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland are EASA members but not EU members. They simply chose not to, for whatever reason. I really don't see what the UK gains from this step.

Welcome to the land of Brexit. Where anything with EU or Europe in the title must be seen as evil, dictatorial, facist and/or communist. (usually all in the same rant)

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