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Desertshamrock7
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Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:36 pm

Company email just sent out offering unpaid leave and pay freeze with probable pay reduction as a growing concern. Will this be a fall out from the Flybe administration? would Aer Lingus back them up on their bookings or would they let them fail? I for one would not be booking with them after seeing the email. It looks like a fight for survival. Also suffers from the high ADP out of the UK airports.
 
superjeff
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:52 pm

Just my 2 cents worth, but I think nobody's going to want to invest in any regional carrier right now until there is a bit more stability (i.e., the COVID19 situation). I think the fact that after the failure of Flybe reinforces that (although Stobart is Irish, not British), even though there's a potentially major void in the British market, including between Britain and the Irish Republic. I guess IAG might consider something because, frankly, I think they would not have a problem using more Stobart connections to the Aer Lingus hub in Dublin, including from places like Northern England and Scotland, as well as even Northern Ireland, especially since, post Brexit, they seem to have found a resolution to the UK/Ireland border issue. But I'd consider it a longshot.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:18 pm

Various airlines are offering unpaid leave, part time hours in response to the drop off in demand following the Coronavirus outbreak so this is not an automatic 'fight for survival' move but the airline is no doubt in a vulnerable position. A large chunk of its flying business is now out the window with Flybe's demise but the majority of their flying schedule continues with the Aer Lingus Regional franchise which is pretty lucrative; an extensive Ireland-UK network + two Irish PSO routes.

Aer Lingus is likely keeping a very close eye on their situation, the Stobart operations play a vital role in providing feed for their transatlantic business from the UK regions, and they'll want that regular and reliable service maintained. The franchise is actually up for renewal in just over a year, it's a must win for Stobart at this stage.
 
bennett123
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:08 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobart_G ... t_Aviation

Given the size of the company, it seems to be spread a bit thinly.

Profitability is a bit patchy too.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:09 pm

Stobart did a lot of contract flying for Flybe (most of the ATR operations), that's now ceased suddenly, I suspect things will re-balance as the dust settles and the aircraft from the Flybe contract get new work. I can see someone trying to fill the gaps in the Dublin regional network left by Flybe, which might be an opportunity (Aer Lingus codeshared on Flybe routes to/from Dublin)
 
debonair
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:15 pm

Is it true, that Stobart ceased flying on, but Blue Islands and Loganair still continue to operate the former FlyBe routes?
 
McG1967
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:22 pm

debonair wrote:
Is it true, that Stobart ceased flying on, but Blue Islands and Loganair still continue to operate the former FlyBe routes?


Not quite.

Stobart Air were standalone AOC from Flybe. They are continuing to fly the Aer Lingus regional routes between UK & Ireland that they fly on behalf of Aer Lingus.

Blue Air were a Flybe franchise carrier. They are taking on some ex Flybe routes that they previously operated on behalf of Flybe.

Loganair are taking on some of the ex Flybe routes from GLA, EDI, ABZ, NCL and INV.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:35 pm

debonair wrote:
Is it true, that Stobart ceased flying on, but Blue Islands and Loganair still continue to operate the former FlyBe routes?


It's down to how they operated.

(Pre-Connect) Stobart were a subcontractor to Flybe. Flybe decided the routes and took the revenue risk, Stobart were paid by the hour for supplying the aircraft and crew.

Blue Islands and Eastern were franchisees. They decide what routes they are flying and assume the revenue risk. Flybe handled the marketing and bookings in return for a commission on each sale. So much like a McDonalds or Starbucks franchisee.

With Flybe going bust, Eastern and Blue Islands continue running their networks, though they need to set up a new booking system now they don't have Flybe doing that for them.
 
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Aisak
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:40 pm

Desertshamrock7 wrote:
Company email just sent out offering unpaid leave and pay freeze with probable pay reduction as a growing concern.
[...]
I for one would not be booking with them after seeing the email. It looks like a fight for survival

It looks they are offering it’s employees just the same measures other aviation companies are applying.

LH was the first one I heard of, and i bet you didn’t fear booking a LH flight because of these measures.

StobartAir does not market or sell flight tickets. They provide ACMI capacity to other operators when they face more demand than the capacity they can supply with their own means. All airlines around Europe are halting flights, grounding fleet and tightening their staff needs. Of course an ACMI operator won’t be unaffected from this.

FabDiva wrote:
(Pre-Connect) Stobart were a subcontractor to Flybe. Flybe decided the routes and took the revenue risk, Stobart were paid by the hour for supplying the aircraft and crew.


Great post I have to say. Very well explained.
Important to note that StobartAir is also the prime capacity contractor for FlyBE during the connect era. Most of the non-Q400 capacity was being shifted to StobartAir, but all this fleet and crew now just has no missions to fly. That’s a surplus of fleet and crew just because they took these assets from their client, but the client is no longer demanding those services.
Thankfully, StobartAir still has the AerLingus Regional contract to bring money to the company.
 
IrishLessor
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:23 pm

This is such a nonsense, does the original poster realise that airlines are experiencing an sharp drop in forward bookings? This is almost unprecedented
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:55 pm

IrishLessor wrote:
This is such a nonsense, does the original poster realise that airlines are experiencing an sharp drop in forward bookings? This is almost unprecedented


There will be carrier failures. At least one responsible person in the U.K. government understands capitalism and the role of competition to discipline the market, emphasis mine:

While cabinet ministers raced to announce they had saved Flybe in January, when the airline flirted with bankruptcy, it was left to the transport minister Kelly Tolhurst to defend the government’s actions in the Commons on Thursday. She said the government had been working “tirelessly” with Flybe’s owners Connect Airways – a consortium of Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Air and the hedge fund Cyrus Capital – since then.

Existing problems had been compounded by the coronavirus outbreak which had a “significant impact on demand”, Tolhurst said. “The directors, therefore, decided it was not viable to keep Flybe operating.”

She added: “Unfortunately, in a competitive market, companies do fail, and it is not the role of government to prop them up.”


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... escue-deal
 
Desertshamrock7
Topic Author
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:02 am

 
bennett123
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:14 am

Wonder how much of a pay cut he will take?.
 
F27500
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:28 pm

They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:38 am

F27500 wrote:
They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".


And why would that be???
 
F27500
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:16 pm

DeltaB717 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".


And why would that be???


It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.
 
Andy33
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:23 pm

F27500 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".


And why would that be???


It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.

But so far at least they do not sell tickets to the general public, they only operate services on behalf of other airlines, so the brand image is irrelevant - there are only a very limited range of possible customers, all of which are much more interested in money than the name of their potential subcontractor. Stobart is also a highly respected name in transport in the UK, having a wide range of interests - possible airline customers will certainly have heard of them.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:30 pm

F27500 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".


And why would that be???


It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.


To you maybe. In the UK (where they primarily operate) Stobart is quite a well known name thanks to the Eddie Stobart haulage company. Also they don't actually operate flights under their own name so it has no effect.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:30 pm

Yes the Eddie Stobart name is well known in the UK and especially to those of us who frequently drive on the nation's motorways. Their road haulage division with their 'named' truck cabs are legendary.
 
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metalinyoni
Posts: 313
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:38 pm

If Stobart Air did fall out of bed, for those passengers booked on Aer Lingus flights operated by Stobart Air, they would be protected I presume? I regularly fly BRS - DUB on EI and am doing so again in April and June. It would be a shame to lose them on this route as your only option is FR who recently have been charging much higher prices.
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David_itl
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:41 pm

I wonder what would be made of Suckling Airways then?
 
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nighthawk
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:49 pm

F27500 wrote:

It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.


What a terribly uninformed post. Stobart Group are extremely well recognised and respected in the logistics industry primarily through their trucking division (Eddie Stobart) but recently through their rail and airport operations. Given that they are essentially a wet lease operator, the name is perfect for their needs.

Even if they were to launch passenger flights under their own name, the brand recognition they would gain would be a huge advantage to them (although there may be some stigma with being associated with a freight haulage company).
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 126
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:11 pm

F27500 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
F27500 wrote:
They were in trouble as soon as they started calling themselves "Stobart AIr".


And why would that be???


It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.


Kinda like Wizz?
 
F27500
Posts: 831
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:49 pm

ZazuPIT wrote:
F27500 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:

And why would that be???


It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.


Kinda like Wizz?



.. and Suckling .. and BMIBaby ... and Swoop and Scoot and WOW... there have been so many dumb ones over the years!
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:13 pm

F27500 wrote:
ZazuPIT wrote:
F27500 wrote:

It is a dumb, clumsy sounding name that says absolutely nothing.


Kinda like Wizz?



.. and Suckling .. and BMIBaby ... and Swoop and Scoot and WOW... there have been so many dumb ones over the years!


You ignored every post informing you that it is a historic, respected brand in the UK transport industry.

Regardless, Stobart is much more sensible (being somebody's last name) than any of those onomatopoeic brands.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
smallvoyageur
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:35 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Yes the Eddie Stobart name is well known in the UK and especially to those of us who frequently drive on the nation's motorways. Their road haulage division with their 'named' truck cabs are legendary.


Known, yes.

Financially stable, not some much. They nearly went out of business before Christmas, before they did a massive debt writedown and even last month they loss £11 million due to accounting errors. If the trucking business went properly bankrupt, it would look bad on the other businesses that shares its name even if they have been spun off.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:40 pm

smallvoyageur wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Yes the Eddie Stobart name is well known in the UK and especially to those of us who frequently drive on the nation's motorways. Their road haulage division with their 'named' truck cabs are legendary.


Known, yes.

Financially stable, not some much. They nearly went out of business before Christmas, before they did a massive debt writedown and even last month they loss £11 million due to accounting errors. If the trucking business went properly bankrupt, it would look bad on the other businesses that shares its name even if they have been spun off.


You are confusing Eddie Stobart Logistics (the Road Freight and Logistics company - LSE: ESL) with the Stobart Group (Infrastructure, aviation, civil engineering etc - LSE: STOB)

The two are quite separate, and the problems at Eddie Stobart Logistics had nothing to do with the Stobart Group.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:03 am

smallvoyageur wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Yes the Eddie Stobart name is well known in the UK and especially to those of us who frequently drive on the nation's motorways. Their road haulage division with their 'named' truck cabs are legendary.


Known, yes.

Financially stable, not some much. They nearly went out of business before Christmas, before they did a massive debt writedown and even last month they loss £11 million due to accounting errors. If the trucking business went properly bankrupt, it would look bad on the other businesses that shares its name even if they have been spun off.


My post was in reference to how well known the brand is in the UK, I wasn't attempting to assess the overall financial health of the group at large.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:21 am

nighthawk wrote:
Even if they were to launch passenger flights under their own name, the brand recognition they would gain would be a huge advantage to them (although there may be some stigma with being associated with a freight haulage company).


Yep. Even though I'm fully aware of Stobart Air, whenever I think of the word "Stobart", I always think of their lorries first.

vhtje wrote:
You are confusing Eddie Stobart Logistics (the Road Freight and Logistics company - LSE: ESL) with the Stobart Group (Infrastructure, aviation, civil engineering etc - LSE: STOB)

The two are quite separate, and the problems at Eddie Stobart Logistics had nothing to do with the Stobart Group.


I know the lorry division is a separate entity now, but am I right in thinking the Stobart Group effectively "grew out" of the lorry side?
 
VFRonTop
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:33 am

to get back on topic I think the announcements that Stobart have made are being rolled out across the vast majority of carriers both large and small, BA, EasyJet, Virgin, Lufthansa, Cathay, Malaysia, Swiss Austrian have all announced versions of unpaid leave, pay freezes, training cancellations, recruitment freezes, fleet groundings etc. A sensible approach to a rapidly changing situation.

Stobart's issue is liquidity, as a regional carrier their margins are thin. The benefit for them is that they fly under the EI Regional brand so Stobart's pain is EI's pain which is eventually IAG's pain.
 
F27500
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:42 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
F27500 wrote:
ZazuPIT wrote:

Kinda like Wizz?



.. and Suckling .. and BMIBaby ... and Swoop and Scoot and WOW... there have been so many dumb ones over the years!


You ignored every post informing you that it is a historic, respected brand in the UK transport industry.

Regardless, Stobart is much more sensible (being somebody's last name) than any of those onomatopoeic brands.


I didn't ignore anything .. you all filled me in on who Stobart was. What more was there to say about Stobart?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:18 am

VFRonTop wrote:
to get back on topic I think the announcements that Stobart have made are being rolled out across the vast majority of carriers both large and small, BA, EasyJet, Virgin, Lufthansa, Cathay, Malaysia, Swiss Austrian have all announced versions of unpaid leave, pay freezes, training cancellations, recruitment freezes, fleet groundings etc. A sensible approach to a rapidly changing situation.

Stobart's issue is liquidity, as a regional carrier their margins are thin. The benefit for them is that they fly under the EI Regional brand so Stobart's pain is EI's pain which is eventually IAG's pain.


My understanding is that most, if not all, of the franchise flying for EI is at Stobart's own commercial risk. EI do sales, marketing and customer service, but it is not an ACMI agreement, as I understand.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:27 am

F27500 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
F27500 wrote:


.. and Suckling .. and BMIBaby ... and Swoop and Scoot and WOW... there have been so many dumb ones over the years!


You ignored every post informing you that it is a historic, respected brand in the UK transport industry.

Regardless, Stobart is much more sensible (being somebody's last name) than any of those onomatopoeic brands.


I didn't ignore anything .. you all filled me in on who Stobart was. What more was there to say about Stobart?

So was Tony Ryan naming an airline after himself also creating a ‘dumb, clumsy sounding name’?
 
VFRonTop
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:39 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
VFRonTop wrote:

My understanding is that most, if not all, of the franchise flying for EI is at Stobart's own commercial risk. EI do sales, marketing and customer service, but it is not an ACMI agreement, as I understand.


Yes you're right EI only acts as an agent, Stobart operate the flights (and own the risk). That said EI get feed from EIR ops and as with all franchise agreements there is a reputational and brand risk to having Stobart/EIR fail. EI and IAG will be watching closely
 
F27500
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:57 pm

Bhoy wrote:
F27500 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

You ignored every post informing you that it is a historic, respected brand in the UK transport industry.

Regardless, Stobart is much more sensible (being somebody's last name) than any of those onomatopoeic brands.


I didn't ignore anything .. you all filled me in on who Stobart was. What more was there to say about Stobart?

So was Tony Ryan naming an airline after himself also creating a ‘dumb, clumsy sounding name’?


No. Ryanair flows off the tongue better than Stobart Air. That just sounds clumsy. Another one I liked was Wardair in Canada. I'm not against airlines named after people.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Stobart Air in trouble

Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:54 am

Laker, Lauda, Braniff, Hughes Airwest and (gag!) Trump Shuttle all spring to mind. Aer Lingus is just a translation of air lines, so what's in a name?

But on topic, does Stobart have a plan to restore it's Flybe flying under it's own name or marketing/franchise partner?
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